In Regards To The Lack Of Melee Techniques

[error_alt_delete]

maybe they took it out cause IDK...it wasnt put in there on purpose!?!?!?

 

[heypancho]

Uh, I don't think they're really trying to close some gap between competitive/casual play. I don't think that they even created a gap for competitive and casual play. Competitive/casual play has always been there. I think you might believe Nintendo made Melee a easy game to mash buttons with and also a game to be highly technical with.. wavedashing is basically a glitch that's been recognized and corrected in brawl. I don't think it was meant to downgrade anything. If anything, they're trying to close the gap between characters and the whole let's-make-this-character-top-tier type thing. They're making the game fair for all the characters they make.

And WD dsmash with IC's isn't any greater competitively than Spot dodging someone's attack. WD dsmash can almost be bundled into button mashing and cheap if it's used ALL the time. That type of skill doesn't make the game more competitive.

 

[The Hypnotist]

@ The Hypnotist

Can you please clear up a few things for me? Tell me do Melee and Brawl both run on the same physics engine? If the answer is yes then Nintendo most likely took out so called "advance techniques " in order to try in close the gap between competitive players vs non competitive players. If the answer is no, then why couldn't some "melee" techniques unintentionally removed as the result of Brawl having a different physics engine from melee?

-Knight

If I'm not mistaken it is the same engine, but someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I remeber reading (awhile back) that it was the same engine.

 

[Tryptomine]

That's something I disagree with, and I don't want to really go into it because it's off topic. However I'd ask him (and you if you agree with him) to define "skill".

The ability to perform a task effectively, generally gained through training. As opposed to talen, which is generally inate.

 

[KIngGerudo]

If you want Melee AT's, then play Melee. If you want to play a completely different game with new techs then play Brawl when its released. "Pros" want to keep the old AT's because they won't have to develop any new strats thus letting them keep their title and not have to start from scratch. The people who complain about losing the old techs and cant cope with the loss of them are wasting their breath. Having new techs while getting rid of some of the old ones helps you develop more skill so if you don't like it, then don't play it.

P.S. if you dont want to get flamed, then dont post flame bait or use a flame shield at maximum power.

 

[The Hypnotist]

Then do you honestly beilve it takes more"skill" to play with no exploits, no tourney rules and ATs (Moonwalking, WDing, SHFFL, All Stages inclduing G&W, possibly items) then playing the way M2K and KDJ do at MLG tournies? Let's be real here, yeah I know there are mind games but why not have both. Now if your including items... Then well... enough said (unless you want me to go on...)

 

[The Hypnotist]

If you want Melee AT's, then play Melee. If you want to play a completely different game with new techs then play Brawl when its released. "Pros" want to keep the old AT's because they won't have to develop any new strats thus letting them keep their title and not have to start from scratch. The people who complain about losing the old techs and cant cope with the loss of them are wasting their breath. Having new techs while getting rid of some of the old ones helps you develop more skill so if you don't like it, then don't play it.

P.S. if you dont want to get flamed, then dont post flame bait or use a flame shield at maximum power.

Props for being from Richmond first off... hella dope, you go to Pinole High...

DUN DUN DUNNNNNNNNN!

2nd... It's not flame bait, people just didn't read the thread...

 

[KIngGerudo]

Then do you honestly beilve it takes more"skill" to play with no exploits, no tourney rules and ATs (Moonwalking, WDing, SHFFL, All Stages inclduing G&W, possibly items) then playing the way M2K and KDJ do at MLG tournies? Let's be real here, yeah I know there are mind games but why not have both. Now if your including items... Then well... enough said (unless you want me to go on...)

yes, yes i do believe that. when you cant exploit anything and you can't be exploited and everyone is fair then it takes way more skill to win.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

yes, yes i do believe that. when you cant exploit anything and you can't be exploited and everyone is fair then it takes way more skill to win.

LOL! People like you want the game reduced to one of two forms: whoever is more patient (because you can see the opponent's move coming a mile away, so it is stupid to go on the offensive) or whoever can read minds.

 

[Kirby_M@ster]

Threads on this topic should be banned completely because between players who need exploits to win and those who don't, the debate is only going to bring pointless arguments.

 

[KIngGerudo]

LOL! People like you want the game reduced to one of two forms: whoever is more patient (because you can see the opponent's move coming a mile away, so it is stupid to go on the offensive) or whoever can read minds.

haha complete opposite. i was simply replying to the fact that it would take more skill to win when everyone is similar. but in response to you buzz, thats how i play sometimes so i suppose i could be biased.

 

[Tryptomine]

Then do you honestly beilve it takes more"skill" to play with no exploits, no tourney rules and ATs (Moonwalking, WDing, SHFFL, All Stages inclduing G&W, possibly items) then playing the way M2K and KDJ do at MLG tournies? Let's be real here, yeah I know there are mind games but why not have both. Now if your including items... Then well... enough said (unless you want me to go on...)

Did you read what I had posted previously? I don't recall saying that. According to the definition I gave, no it doesn't take "more" skill, it takes a different kind of skill.

Using my analogy from before, a game where you have to type well in order to jump to dodge obstacles doesn't test your skill at dodging obstacles, but your skill at typing. Neither is "more" or "less" just different.

And considering this is a fighting game, I am far more interesting in testing and honing my skill at fighting, not mastering complicated controls.

 

[The Hypnotist]

yes, yes i do believe that. when you cant exploit anything and you can't be exploited and everyone is fair then it takes way more skill to win.

Has to be a joke?

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Did you read what I had posted previouslu? I don't recall saying that. According to the definition I gave, no it doesn't take "more" skill, it takes a different kind of skill.

Using my analogy from before, a game where you have to type well in order to jump to dodge obstacles doesn't test your skill at dodging obstacles, but your skill at typing. Neither is "more" or "less" just different.

And considering this is a fighting game, I am far more interesting in testing and honing my skill at fighting, not mastering complicated controls.

Like I said, your version is about the skill of patience or mind-reading. There is nothing left to do! OK, so they are just "different"... yours is the boring version. Ours is the intense version.

 

[SeriousWB]

Like I said, your version is about the skill of patience or mind-reading. There is nothing left to do! OK, so they are just "different"... yours is the boring version. Ours is the intense version.

Rofl...

Just... rofl..

 

[Tryptomine]

Like I said, your version is about the skill of patience or mind-reading. There is nothing left to do! OK, so they are just "different"... yours is the boring version. Ours is the intense version.

"Intense" huh? Why stop at ATs then? Why not make it better? Change it so you have to press X, Y, X, Y in that order rapidly to jump. Or how about Circle the analog stick clockwise then hold up + B for UPB moves? Intense? That **** will give you a ****ing heart attack I'll tell you.

There's a difference between a game that is hard and a game that is hard to play.

You want hard to play, go get Lair.

 

[Johnknight1]

Buzz just buzzed through this thread like no other. Like a proffessional n00b flammer!

 

[MetalMetaKnight]

Actually, your point is interesting. Actually, Sakurai is trying to make the game even for EVERYONE (caped it for people to understand) to play. Even though L Cancel still exists im thinking this is the only thing that could seperate new players to good players, though it wont make much of a difference since it only speeds you up a bit. But then again, thats the demo. If they take out the "Advanced Techniques" the game will still be competitive and more fun and original than having cheap tactics. Im sure Sakurai will add some things to spice things up, like some weird combination of attacks/jumps/movements that people will have to practice to get it right, like wavedashing, but making it more fair. Thats all i have to say

 

[Ixninjax]

"Intense" huh? Why stop at ATs then? Why not make it better? Change it so you have to press X, Y, X, Y in that order rapidly to jump. Or how about Circle the analog stick clockwise then hold up + B for UPB moves? Intense? That **** will give you a ****ing heart attack I'll tell you.

There's a difference between a game that is hard and a game that is hard to play.

You want hard to play, go get Lair.

From the sound of it, you can't do any of the advanced techniques. If you can't see the game from our point of view, why do you argue with our way of playing? We understand yours (since we've all been a casual at some point), now try ours out before you shun our way of playing. I honestly think that if your gonna Argue that advanced moves are hard to do or break the game then you should get first hand experience first. Advanced moves are not that hard, please don't assume such nonsense.

 

[Puffs]

 

[Mama]

All I'll say is that theory fails. Nintendo wouldn't base a game off of a minority. The fact that you believe they cater to casuals should actually disprove your theory before you even posted it. Why would they take so much time taking away advanced techniques? Answer : They wouldn't and they haven't. Only thing really gone is Wavedashing. B canceling moves isn't something really widespread. There are plenty of other cute exploits that will still own like Peach's float canceling so Marcus please re examine yourself before you post your form in another intaccurate meaningless manner.

 

[Tryptomine]

From the sound of it, you can't do any of the advanced techniques. If you can't see the game from our point of view, why do you argue with our way of playing? We understand yours (since we've all been a casual at some point), now try ours out before you shun our way of playing. I honestly think that if your gonna Argue that advanced moves are hard to do or break the game then you should get first hand experience first. Advanced moves are not that hard, please don't assume such nonsense.

I'm not arguing against ATs so much as I'm arguing against bad controls. I don't beleive you should ever have to work to get your character to do what you want it to do, but thats it's far more important what you do with your character.

And if the ATs are simple enough to perform they should have no bearing on the "gap" between "pros" and "noobs."

 

[Mama]

I'm not arguing against ATs so much as I'm arguing against bad controls. I don't beleive you should ever have to work to get your character to do what you want it to do, but thats it's far more important what you do with your character.

And if the ATs are simple enough to perform they should have no bearing on the "gap" between "pros" and "noobs."

If you think you shouldn't have to work to get your character to be good then you shouldn't even be playing games for kids older than 5...Seriously, learn. You have to learn in order to be good you know. But nobody is saying you have to. If you don't like the advanced techniques or don't think there necessary leave it at that. Don't try to push your non competitive spirit onto people who play to win. Things just don't work that way.

 

[Tryptomine]

If you think you shouldn't have to work to get your character to be good then you shouldn't even be playing games for kids older than 5...Seriously, learn. You have to learn in order to be good you know. But nobody is saying you have to. If you don't like the advanced techniques or don't think there necessary leave it at that. Don't try to push your non competitive spirit onto people who play to win. Things just don't work that way.

 

[Ixninjax]

I'm not arguing against ATs so much as I'm arguing against bad controls. I don't beleive you should ever have to work to get your character to do what you want it to do, but thats it's far more important what you do with your character.

And if the ATs are simple enough to perform they should have no bearing on the "gap" between "pros" and "noobs."

Well if actually took the time to learn the advanced moves yourself you would learn that you eventually don't need to think to perform ATs and that it becomes as simple as rolling. And ATs don't have any bearing on the gap either, that gap is purely tourney experience. Ppl put so much emphasis on ATs, claiming its what makes us good. The emphasis should be put on tourneys, because even without ATs, Ppl who consistently go to tourneys have more experience with what moveset they are presented. And learn how to better handle them then a casual. The only way to bridge the gap is to remove tourneys. And unless brawl completely loses depth, that seems unlikely.

 

[FightingGameGuy]

"Intense" huh? Why stop at ATs then? Why not make it better? Change it so you have to press X, Y, X, Y in that order rapidly to jump. Or how about Circle the analog stick clockwise then hold up + B for UPB moves? Intense? That **** will give you a ****ing heart attack I'll tell you.

There's a difference between a game that is hard and a game that is hard to play.

You want hard to play, go get Lair.

ROFL someone has never played another fighting game besides Super Smash Bros. Try Guilty Gear ,it pretty much is the experience you described and it rocks.

There's a reason as to why Guilty Gear is firmly considered by Evo to be a competitive fighting game whereas they describe Melee as trying "to prove" that it belongs with the competitive fighting games .

Honestly though, you neglect to see a difference between complexity which allows for more variation and needless complexity.

If they take out the "Advanced Techniques" the game will still be competitive and more fun and original than having cheap tactics.

... once again we have a casual calling advanced techniques cheap. Thankfully you don't speak for all casuals but you're quote is a perfect example of why competitive players think so many casual players are scubs.

Your use of the word cheap suggests that the primary reason you think it would be more fun without them is that they are unfair. But since this is obviously not true because ATs are available to everyone, it follows that you are upset because you are incompetent at performing them and hence they are unfair from your perspective. This might not be the case, but you certainly present it as such with your condemnatory words.

Your comment about L-cancel betrays a jaw-dropping ignorance about the many other techniques in smash such as short hopping, dash-dancing, or shield-canceling, let alone the many other aspects smash, or even what makes good players better in any competitive game.

 

[Tryptomine]

ROFL someone has never played another fighting game besides Super Smash Bros. Try Guilty Gear ,it pretty much is the experience you described and it rocks.

There's a reason as to why Guilty Gear is firmly considered by Evo to be a competitive fighting game whereas they describe Melee as trying "to prove" that it belongs with the competitive fighting games .

I'm well aware of those games, and as such why I generally dislike the genre. Obviously there is a market for them, but it certainly isn't me.

Honestly though, you neglect to see a difference between complexity which allows for more variation and needless complexity.

Not really, I just think you and I as classifying it differently. I support complexity that adds variety and gives you different option in a game or forces you to rethink your strategy. That makes the game complex. I dislike what makes the controls more complex then they have to be. That's not to say I advocate one-button does all thinking either, because thats autmates the game.

 

[jupiter]

Nintendo is most likely trying to close the gap between good players and casual players. Nintendo refuses to regonize talent in gaming. Because of these reasons we have no ranking system and we lost wavedashing, L Button Canceling, and many other techniques. Nintendo knew we loved these techniques but still removed them, the inclusion of these techniques would not have made the casual fans of the games upset [in a vaccum]. However, Nintendo beilves the more techniques they can remove the less competetive the game will be. Nintendo refuses to recgonize competitive gaming or talent. However there is no way Nintendo can seriously close the gap and them thinking so is sad, and newbs will get pwned online by the 0.75% of the Smash Community.

Discuss, no flames please.

First of all, "between GOOD players and CASUAL player" ?!?! 'the hell is wrong with you?! Get off your imaginary high horse, because judging from your attitude and your grammar, you're nothing special.

Secondly, use proper grammar and spelling if you want to be taken seriously and not considered to be "immature," which you are.

And why do you entitle yourself as someone who suddenly knows the ins and outs of videogames and what Nintendo "believes"? Too bad you have nothing unique about your post, and too bad you've successfully convinced yourself into thinking that the big change in aerial physics (which suddenly somehow dictates how low-class this game will become per your "logic") was a big personal attack on all competitive players.

So here's something that should help:

 

[FightingGameGuy]

Not really, I just think you and I as classifying it differently. I support complexity that adds variety and gives you different option in a game or forces you to rethink your strategy. That makes the game complex. I dislike what makes the controls more complex then they have to be. That's not to say I advocate one-button does all thinking either, because thats autmates the game.

We probably are talking about fine classification differences, but I'll continue at the risk of splitting hairs ...

If you want options, you can either have a single specific input for them or a complicated combination of multiple specific inputs. However, many games especially Smash Bros. strive
to minimize the number of specific inputs, so if you want more options, you're pretty much forced to use more difficult, complicated combinations.

Consider the controls for short hopping. The controls are far more technical skill oriented (or whatever term you want to describe an input method where the user is likely to screw up) than they have to be -- one could easily assign one button for short-hopping and another for full jumps, especially on the gamecube and N64 versions where there was an abundance of jump buttons . But doing so sacrifices the simplicity (e.g. few buttons) of the controls. If you wanted to make infallible controls for short-hopping you'd go for the two separate buttons, but this is unnecessary for many players and would make the controls unnecessarily cumbersome for them.

Short-hopping uses (IMO) an elegant, intuitive control scheme. While wavedashing's control isn't nearly as elegant or intuitive (at least for someone who's intuition is based on the physics reality not the game's programmed physics) I think the controls work well, since it provides many options in how you can control the length by changing your angle. (I think gameplay-wise it works magnificently in how it such control over your spacing). I'd prefer advanced techniques to be in Brawl, (preferably those that add wholly new options such as short hopping and wavedashing as opposed to those that simply improve a current option such as l-canceling) since the more options they provide would make the game more interesting for those who can perform them, even if they require some practice before mastering their input. But I recognize that's just my preference, although I really the difficulty of smash's control's are greatly exaggerated.

 

[Finn Macool]

Just because melle advanced techs don't work in brawl doesn't mean that there won'e be any, brawl will probably have its own techniques which are just as advanced as the melee ones, they just have'nt been found after a couple of hours of play

 

[Shadowclaw]

You actually think that by removing things like Wavedashing will make the game less competitive? It's actually the opposite. Without the AT's, people will have to rely more on their fighting skill and playing smart than on mashing buttons and torturing their sticks (not that it won't happen in brawl, though). It also opens the door to a big amount of good players that would not play competitively before because they didn't know/like those techniques. To me that looks very competitive.

Nintendo is most likely trying to close the gap between good players and casual players.

So you're basically saying that what defines a good player is whether they can Wavedash or not? I use Wavedash as an example because it's the most common one, though I know there might be a few others getting removed. Back on topic, I am sure many techniques like L-Cancelling, short hopping and a few other useful ones are remaining in the game, so you cannot say that they are making the game less skillful. Good players will remain at a higher level than average players not because they can use more fancy techniques but rather because they have a good amount of experience and they can play smart, knowing how to counter certain characters or what to do on a certain situation and such.

On another note, as far as I know, Wavedashing is a glitch in the game, so it's only natural that it would get removed, since it wasn't supposed to be there in the first time. It has nothing to do with Nintendo trying to close any gaps. Good players will be able to get around it easily and adapt to new mechanics and develop new strategies, whereas not so good players will be complaining because they already had their winning strategy and they can't come up with something new. And before anyone takes this as a critic, I'm not attacking anyone, I'm just stating my opinion, sorry if it sounds otherwise.

 

[LinkGadra]

Man, it's ridiculous how hung up people are on Melee. I realize that we've been playing for six years now, but that's exactly why something new needs to come along. The people who are getting all bent out of shape about the "supposed" lack of ATs are just unwilling to consider what new things are in store for Brawl.

Also, Melee's not going anywhere. If you really can't live without these specific techs, then just keep playing that. Those who can adapt will be enjoying the new experiences Brawl provides.

 

[LavisFiend]

Just so you know, I have been gathering up posts from here and there of people whining about Brawl in general, so when Brawl comes out and the same people sing it's praises, I can pull out those posts and show just how foolish it is to DRAW EMPTY CONCLUSIONS ABOUT A GAME THAT HAS NOT COME OUT YET!

 

[BigRick]

Nintendo refuses to regonize talent in gaming.

That made my day

 

[Reyairia]

If you ask me, I think closing this gap is a good thing.
If you're such a good gamer and competitive and shizz, this really should not phase at all.

 

[The Hypnotist]

Don't try to push your non competitive spirit onto people who play to win. Things just don't work that way.

QTF

Look, this thread is turning into a casual vs. comp thread and I'm not letting that happen.

Now as far as the ATs being simple so they wouldn't make a difference... Yeah they are simple but some people are just lazy. Why would they go though all of the trouble to remove things that 98% of the popuation doesn't even know about and the rest really care about.

 

[The Hypnotist]

First of all, "between GOOD players and CASUAL player" ?!?! 'the hell is wrong with you?! Get off your imaginary high horse, because judging from your attitude and your grammar, you're nothing special.

Secondly, use proper grammar and spelling if you want to be taken seriously and not considered to be "immature," which you are.

And why do you entitle yourself as someone who suddenly knows the ins and outs of videogames and what Nintendo "believes"? Too bad you have nothing unique about your post, and too bad you've successfully convinced yourself into thinking that the big change in aerial physics (which suddenly somehow dictates how low-class this game will become per your "logic") was a big personal attack on all competitive players.

So here's something that should help:

Oh come on, you knOw I meant good as being better in the game. It's a fuccking speculation board, and I need to re download firefox, so yeah I have typos. You need to calm down andquit putting words in my mouth. Be mature, and no I'm not complaing about anything.

 

[Shadowclaw]

Why would they go though all of the trouble to remove things that 98% of the popuation doesn't even know about and the rest really care about.

Because most of them (if not all) are glitches that were not supposed to be there in the first place? And who said it's a lot of trouble to remove those things? For what we know, they could have just disappeared due to the new floatiness and mechanics.

I don't see why do you keep insisting on that (I don't want to use the word complain here). Again, good players will adapt and not so good players that don't want to experiment new things will cry. Which one will you choose? Keep in mind this is a new game; This is not Melee 2.0

 

[The Hypnotist]

Because most of them (if not all) are glitches that were not supposed to be there in the first place? And who said it's a lot of trouble to remove those things? For what we know, they could have just disappeared due to the new floatiness and mechanics.

I don't see why do you keep insisting on that (I don't want to use the word complain here). Again, good players will adapt and not so good players that don't want to experiment new things will cry. Which one will you choose? Keep in mind this is a new game; This is not Melee 2.0

I know it's not Melee 2.0. But still things return, moonwalking returns, BtT returns, Hammer returns. L-Canceling (L Button Canceling) was intended for Melee.

 

[Shadowclaw]

Then why are you accusing Nintendo of wanting to get rid of competitive play just because one or two glitches didn't come back? Some things return, some don't. It's a matter of getting over it and enjoy the game. And don't worry about competitive play, it's more than guaranteed that it will still be challenging (and possibly even more fun).

And on a side note, playing to win is not complaining about changes. It's adapting to them.