*IMPORTANT READ* Bucket Braking. Read it nubs.

[K 2]

I can usually live to 120-130% without bucket braking. I haven't been able to test this out too thoroughly with bucket braking yet. I always forget to bucket brake until I'm dead, then I'm like crap >_> I should have bucket braked.

 

[Neb]

Can we abbreviate this somehow?

For instance...

BB (BB'ing, BB'd)

Edit:
Also, trying this out in real matches, you'll find that instances where you can actually
use this AT, occur more frequently than you would think.

 

[K 2]

^^^ Sounds good to me.

 

[TheStig]

i'm not very good at using nair -> bb yet but i'm working on it

 

[Hylian]

I can't Bucket Brake. I just can't. The few matchs I played with GW vs Sethlon and PhantomX at the tournament saturday I would think constantly, Ok I need to bucket brake this, but I would always key instead. My reactions are faster then my thoughts and I can't make myself FF a nair instead of dairing. I have really good DI because my reactions but I can't BB . I could of live 4 times throughout the tournament with it >_<.

I need to work on the mental aspect of this.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Try C sticking U-airs if all else fails.

Seems like G&W has become way more technical.

 

[OverLade]

Is it me or does this move GaW up on the tier list? With this he lives longer than snake does. I can't see Metaknight beating GaW if GaW can live up to 150% on every stock. MK has better options, but all GaW needs is an Overpowered smash at 80% for a kill.

>_>

A little broken.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Well, M2K, teh_spammerer, and Inui all say it's broken. And they all main Metaknight.

Yeah, I heard M2K say something like "NEW BEST CHARACTER!"

 

[OverLade]

Well, M2K, teh_spammerer, and Inui all say it's broken. And they all main Metaknight.

Yeah, I heard M2K say something like "NEW BEST CHARACTER!"

Seriously, this undoutably makes GaW best or 2nd best character, and I don't think MK has a chance against him. Snake might be able to go even with him or something.

 

[Neb]

Seriously, this undoutably makes GaW best or 2nd best character, and I don't think MK has a chance against him. Snake might be able to go even with him or something.

No it doesn't. G&W will still be KO'd at fairly early percentages.
BB'ing really only comes into effect when not in close proximity of the blast zones.

lol, calm down.

 

[OverLade]

edit: NVm.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Okay seriously, G&W does still have one weakness though.

His attacks come out a little too slow.

Jab is 4 frames, and that's G&W's fastest attack. 2nd fastest is D-tilt, which is 6 frames. There are crazy 3 frame attacks that beat out G&W in the poke and spam war. His Smashes come out 15 frames or later which is too slow for out of shield purposes.

 

[OverLade]

Okay seriously, G&W does still have one weakness though.

His attacks come out a little too slow.

Jab is 4 frames, and that's G&W's fastest attack. 2nd fastest is D-tilt, which is 6 frames. There are crazy 3 frame attacks that beat out G&W in the poke and spam war. His Smashes come out 15 frames or later which is too slow for out of shield purposes.

edit: Nvm lol.

 

[_Phloat_]

The video showed the EXTREMES, not what will normally happen.

Lol @ him living twice as long.

 

[Neb]

The video showed the EXTREMES, not what will normally happen.

Lol @ him living twice as long.

Thank you!
People are definitely blowing this out of proportion.
The KO difference between bb'ing, and not bb'ing is like 5-15%.
If anything, G&W has gained like, three pounds, who really notices when a person gains three pounds?

 

[OverLade]

The video showed the EXTREMES, not what will normally happen.

Lol @ him living twice as long.

Alright

I went into training mode and tried it. It's not that useful. GaW wont change much on the tier list.

I completely overreacted.

Sorry T_T

 

[Tomkraven]

Alright

I went into training mode and tried it. It's not that useful. GaW wont change much on the tier list.

I completely overreacted.

Sorry T_T

lol @ the "this wont change much on the tier list" part... but anyway, this at is mainly situational therefore is useful but not that much. great finding btw

 

[_Phloat_]

Thank you!
People are definitely blowing this out of proportion.
The KO difference between bb'ing, and not bb'ing is like 5-15%.
If anything, G&W has gained like, three pounds, who really notices when a person gains three pounds?

I notice when people gain three pounds.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Hey, all G&W has to do is force you into a disadvantaged position and he'll be hard to KO. We should remember that one of his best qualities is staying safe.

G&W's better stages are usually ones with low ceilings, but this AT makes him a lot better on ones with big ceilings.

 

[JustKindaBoredUKno]

yeah this is pretty situational. Any neutral stage, a vertical killing move will still kill you, and the only way this'll save you is when you're hit to the other side of the stage from an edge.

Will it save you once or twice in a bunch of friendlies? Sure, i mean, its not entirely useless. But its just not a great AT overall.

I mean don't get me wrong, I'd love for G&W to have an actual AT as much as the next guy, but this isn't what I'd have in mind.

EDIT:

Hey, all G&W has to do is force you into a disadvantaged position and he'll be hard to KO.

G&W's better stages are usually ones with low ceilings, but this AT makes him a lot better on ones with big ceilings.

actually, I agree with you. Bair just got a little better. Pressure towards one edge, and if your opponent hits you the other way, you stand a decent chance at survival.

 

[Phlemingo]

:S i dont know how you guys do this lol. my gnw dies at 110 >_> at fd

What hit is killing you? Are you DI'ing up?

 

[Neb]

I notice when people gain three pounds.

....
Click.

 

[K 2]

no It Doesn't. G&w Will Still Be Ko'd At Fairly Early Percentages.
bb'ing Really Only Comes Into Effect When Not In Close Proximity Of The Blast Zones.

Lol, Calm Down.

the Video Showed The Extremes, Not What Will Normally Happen.

Lol @ Him Living Twice As Long.

thank You!
People Are Definitely Blowing This Out Of Proportion.
The Ko Difference Between Bb'ing, And Not Bb'ing Is Like 5-15%.
If Anything, G&w Has Gained Like, Three Pounds, Who Really Notices When A Person Gains Three Pounds?

hey, All G&w Has To Do Is Force You Into A Disadvantaged Position And He'll Be Hard To Ko. We Should Remember That One Of His Best Qualities Is staying Safe.

G&w's Better Stages Are Usually Ones With Low Ceilings, But This At Makes Him A Lot Better On Ones With Big Ceilings.

BB'ing isn't useful if your close to the blast zone, it only comes into effect over long distances. However, as A2Z said, we have to force them into a bad position. If G&W forces his opponent to the edge, the only way their opponent can kill G&W is to smash him all the way across the stage, which would give G&W enough time to BB

Edge___Opponent___G&W____________________________________________Edge

 

[ColinJF]

Here is some real data rather than numbers being pulled out of nowhere.

The difference is actually a bit more significant than I thought in the extreme case, but of course Game & Watch can't always be hit in the extreme case.

Here are the approximations present for all cases:
- no DI (I'm just one person, and this is already enough buttons to press; plus the angle of the second hit of the down smash is close to being toward a corner anyway)
- training mode (so moves are slightly weaker -- in other words, in real matches, you die earlier)

All of the percents are BEFORE THE HIT.

Case 1: Meta Knight in his teetering animation on the far left of Final Destination. Game & Watch is as close to him as possible. Meta Knight uses his down smash and hits Game & Watch with the back hit:

Highest survivable percent without bucket braking: 137%
With bucket bracking: 170%
Difference: 33%
Highest percent Ness can survive at: 150%

Case 2: Game & Watch at the exact centre of Final Destination after respawning, Meta Knight slightly to his left, facing away from Game & Watch, hitting him with the second hit of his down smash:

Highest survivable percent without bucket braking: 110%
With bucket braking: 125%
Difference: 15%
Highest percent Ness can survive at: 122%

Case 3: Game & Watch in his teetering animation on the far right of Final Destination, Meta Knight slightly to his left facing away from Game & Watch, hitting him with the second hit of his down smash:

Highest survivable percent without bucket braking: 71%
With bucket braking: 71%
Difference: 0%
Highest percent Ness can survive at: 79%

So, is it more significant than I thought? Yes. Is Game & Watch the heaviest character? No.

But remember: these are NOT the percentages you will die at in a real match because moves are weaker in training mode and because I applied no DI.

 

[A2ZOMG]

In real matches, you actually die later a lot of the time due to stale moves.

And...forcing extreme cases can often be as simple as moving to the other side of your opponent.

 

[Hylian]

This makes Jungle Japes a bit better for GW. He can almost always apply the bucket brake on this stage with good DI. Makes it a great counterpick in teams for GW+Falco .

 

[K 2]

The effect of bucket braking decreases linearly to zero as you move from one edge to the other?

G&W can be a stock tank on JJ with a falco partner. Insane team.

 

[infomon]

The effect of bucket braking decreases linearly to zero as you move from one edge to the other?

That'd be an approximation; I'm not convinced it's actually linear. Although it depends what you're comparing it against, if we're taking DI into consideration, but also if we're comparing no-input recovery vs. G&W's other options, like using Jump after a fastfalled Nair.

G&W can be a stock tank on JJ with a falco partner. Insane team.

Heh.... just be careful which directions you get hit, and have amazing DI

 

[K 2]

rric jungle japes is was listed as one of G&W's worst stages (the thread is titled "Counterpicking made easy"). Bucket braking will make G&W tons better on that stage.

 

[Hylian]

My teammate is a Falco player(Sethlon) and we alternate between counterpicking RC and Japes lol. Sometimes we go double falco on japes though. This will definitly help.

 

[slikvik]

I'm a little iffy now on using uair instead of nair. The 5 frames you lose could easily be the difference between losing a match and winning...but its difficult DIing(especially the way i DI. I quarter circle DI to alter my trajectory more than usual) correctly then using nair

 

[infomon]

I'm a little iffy now on using uair instead of nair. The 5 frames you lose could easily be the difference between losing a match and winning...but its difficult DIing correctly then using nair

.... no disrespect, but are you sure you understand DI then? After you're sent flying away from the hit, ie. once hitstun starts, your DI is already set. You needn't be holding a direction anymore. You have half of your full knockback distance (or something about that much, noone has exact numbers afaik) before you can use the Nair, that's a good amount of time to let go of the control stick. After hitstun starts, directional input has no effect until you've escaped knockback {*}; with the exception of fastfalling, which you can do with an aerial, or anytime after ("hitstun-cancelled knockback").

IMO inputting an aerial to escape hitstun is much easier to learn than proper DI, so the habit shouldn't take too long to develop. Fastfalling the Nair is a bit of a pain, but not too bad once you get used to doing it fast.


{*}: OK, really it's a little before knockback ends; the moment that hitstun would normally convert into a tumble, that's when you regain control of your aerial mobility.

 

[slikvik]

After I DI during the hitstun, I always input another direction in order to get my char as close to the top corner as possible. I do this a lot. Azen does better than anyone. I see what you are talking about

 

[infomon]

^^ I think you meant hitlag. In which case, yeah, quarter-circle SDI, then regular DI the hit to get the trajectory towards the corner..... I see your edit to your post above, you obv know what's going on

 

[slikvik]

oops...yea hitlag. either way i need to get used to incorporating this into my game and breaking the dair habit

 

[omegablackmage]

does this make pictochat a top tier cp stage for gw now?

 

[slikvik]

i never see it legal though

 

[GimR]

Jungle Japes and this...Wow

 

[omegablackmage]

ya i think your right slik. At the beginning of the game it was pretty common on the cp lists, but i think people started *****ing about the random elements killing them. A shame

 

[Hylian]

Pictochat is fine. Only like 5 of the transformations do damage and only one of them kills. There are 28 transformations and you can't get the same one twice in an 8 minute games.