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Impa, the Enigmatic Sheikah, Sage of Shadow

Holder of the Heel

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The synergy of yin and yang is not the "little bit of each other in them", but how one is push and the other is pull. The two forms, if they are to be both used with synergy, need to have a sense of flow (one into the other and thus literally strengthen one another) or provide a form for different situations but toning the character down so as to not give them the overwhelming power of having many options (and thus provides strength where the other is weak). Pulling them apart doesn't make sense and passes up on this unique potential, and saying Zelda is also Impa doesn't make sense either (and having them be a tag-team is a bit out there, even for Sakurai, and in my opinion, pointless and platitudinous, unworthy of Smash).

In fact, the very notion of Impa doesn't even fit into this question of "Zelda/Sheik". Either leave the representation as is or add in Ghirahim, a perfectly capable stand alone edition.
 

Shorts

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Here's the big disconnect for ME with Impa taking Shiek's place. Shiek is in BECAUSE IT'S ZELDA. Impa is not Zelda. Impa would be added as a solo character IMO.

And, alone, Impa loses out against Ghirahim and Tingle IMO. Especially Tingle. Because he soo uguuuuu!
 

Big-Cat

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You missed my point there. By having that "little bit of each other in them" you provide some form of flow from one style to another.

And saying Zelda/Impa as a tag team is a bit out there while we have Pokemon Trainer is clearly a double standard.
 

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And saying Zelda/Impa as a tag team is a bit out there while we have Pokemon Trainer is clearly a double standard.
Good point, but what do you think of my post above yours?
 

Bowserlick

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Let us put our votes on what will happen with Zelda/Sheik/Impa (Wii U not counting DLC).

I say Zelda/Sheik transformation combo and no Impa.
 

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Let it be known, I'm voting on WHAT I THINK WILL HAPPEN, not what I want.

LoZ gains nothing. Nothing. We have:

SS Link
SS Zelda / SS ispired Shiek (Prolly looks like Impa)
OoT Ganondorf
Toon Link
 
D

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No, separating the two can do more than that. As I said above, the problem with the Shelda design is that their attributes against each other which simply doesn't work. There's also still the issue of Zelda's moves being so awful in a game where speed and mobility are king. I almost wonder if the reason Zelda is so weak is because giving her too many options would've made Shelda broken by having too many total options.
CAN is the operative word. Doesn't mean it will.
Even if Sakurai separates the two, there is absolutely no guarantee that they will be balanced differently than before. And even if they ARE balanced differently this time, there's no guarantee that the changes will be better. Change is not always a good thing, as Ganondorf shows.
And that's not factoring in the inevitable change in the engine that ended up crippling quite a few characters from the transition from Melee to Brawl like Captain Falcon. There's no guarantee that the change wouldn't cripple Zelda further regardless if she's still a transformer or not.
I really hate to sound pessimistic like Habanero usually is, but it's justified here. Removing the aspect altogether is not going to be doing any clear favors.

And saying Impa on Sheik is like Waluigi on Luigi is not necessarily true. You're forgetting how art styles can change proportions. Case in point, Wind Waker Ganondorf was never fat once you realized that the guys in Wind Waker were deliberately drawn top heavy as seen below.


Except that the body proportion differences between Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword are near non-existent, so the Wind Waker example does not logically apply.
Impa's really just a lanky, skinny chick, even when compared to Zelda. And since Zelda is Sheik....
You get where I'm going with this, right?

Aside from that, I mentioned a model swap that Diddy posted where Sheik was replaced by Impa. I'm just going to say that Longchu looks less jarring in comparison and leave it at that.

Both may be true in another way. I highly doubt all the concept art we saw in Hyrule Historia was all the concept art that was drawn up during development. It's possible that there was an initial Sheik design for Twilight Princess that never fell into the hands of the public. The design we see in Brawl may have been a revision of this initial design. Still, this is speculating on something we may never know the exact answer to.
Actually, there's a third source; Eiji Aonuma.
He stated (before the DOJO!! reveal of Sheik, actually) that he submitted initial designs for Link, Sheik, and Ganondorf, then had to tweak them a bit to make them fit the Smash environment more.

This could very well prove your hypothesis that there was a Sheik design before the one in Hyrule Historia, though it sounds more to me that the TP Sheik design was specifically for Brawl the whole time. (Though that's just my take.)
 

Big-Cat

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Good point, but what do you think of my post above yours?
I'd be ok with a solo Impa as I want the Shelda styles separated.

As for her being out prioritized by Debbie and Tingle, I can't say. Ghirahim can really bring something new to the table. I don't care for Tingle either way. At least Tingle and Impa are recurring characters, but at least Impa isn't hated big time for ingame reasons.
 

LaniusShrike

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I'm kind of done arguing with GoldenYu. I use actual deductive logic, he uses "logic".
Example:
Me: -By your logic, nothing that could have changed for Brawl but didn't will be different in the next Smash game. Chances are that's wrong.
GoldenYu: Ok then, Captain Falcon could have had his Falcon Punch replaced with his gun, but it didn't happen. By your logic, he will have his gun instead of a Falcon Punch this time.

Yeah... Wow. Done.


I think Bowserlick's got the right of it in regards to what would need to be done to make the transformation gimmick realistic. If, say, the transformation was combined with a damaging aura like Nayru's love, it would be a lot more reasonable to transform mid-fight. I mean, the biggest thing to fix that would probably be just having both models loaded at the same time.

I think you're also right about what's going to happen: Chances are, Zelda/Sheik transformation combo and no Impa. But a guy can dream.
 

Holder of the Heel

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Double standard?

One is a a Pokemon Trainer who can only battle through using pokemon he has trained, he can swap them out like in the games he is from. This is also his definitive trait, his very namesake even.

The other is Zelda and Impa, two separate people who some times have a relation with each other in a Zelda game.

Cycling through a trainer's pokemon, and swapping one Zelda character for another.

So no, not a double standard.

At any rate, all of my other points stand.
 
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I'm kind of done arguing with GoldenYu. I use actual deductive logic, he uses "logic".
Example:
Me: -By your logic, nothing that could have changed for Brawl but didn't will be different in the next Smash game. Chances are that's wrong.
GoldenYu: Ok then, Captain Falcon could have had his Falcon Punch replaced with his gun, but it didn't happen. By your logic, he will have his gun instead of a Falcon Punch this time.

Yeah... Wow. Done.
Rule of thumb: Give a stupid argument, expect one in return.
There is nothing "deductive" about the bile you call logic.
So the fact you're done means I won't have to put up with the stupidity anymore, which is fine by me. :laugh:
 

Neanderthal

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I love how Golden always manges to turn every friendly discussion into a petty war of personal insults just because someone points out an error in his logic.
 

Diddy Kong

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The problem with Zelda is Zelda, not Sheik. Removing Sheik is not going to automatically solve every problem Zelda has.
No, but it would help getting rid of Zelda's 'anti-Sheik'-moveset which is everything opposite to Sheik: slow, unsafe, and laggy attacks. Zelda's whole character is based on this, while Sheik has the safe, quick and combo-based moves. Which is why Sheik has always placed higher than Zelda on tiers, even in Brawl, where Sheik herself is also nothing special, but still leagues above Zelda.
 

FalKoopa

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No, but it would help getting rid of Zelda's 'anti-Sheik'-moveset which is everything opposite to Sheik: slow, unsafe, and laggy attacks. Zelda's whole character is based on this, while Sheik has the safe, quick and combo-based moves.
>Implying separating Sheik from Zelda would force Sakurai to rework Zelda's moveset from scratch.

Do you really think Sakurai would do that? He didn't change Ganondorf's moveset probably due to not wanting to alienate those who used Ganondorf in Melee. I have no reason to believe he would even try to change Zelda's moveset.
 

Big-Cat

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>Implying separating Sheik from Zelda would force Sakurai to rework Zelda's moveset from scratch.

Do you really think Sakurai would do that? He didn't change Ganondorf's moveset probably due to not wanting to alienate those who used Ganondorf in Melee. I have no reason to believe he would even try to change Zelda's moveset.
There's always the possibility that he could revamp anyone at any given time. While it hasn't happened in Smash yet, that doesn't mean it can't happen. Just to give a comparison, Tekken's Jin had a Mishima fighting style in T3 and Tag 1, yet this moveset was completely replaced with a traditional karate based one. Meanwhile, his moveset resurfaced as Devil Jin in T5. As far as I know, the only possible reason for this change was the return of Kazuya in T4 and the might have felt three Mishimas were too much at the time (the roster had been significantly reduced for T4).

Anyway, this thread is reminding me why this was gold material for my ethnography assignment a while back.
 

BluePikmin11

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Have you guys ever considered that Sheik was in the (most critically acclaimed) game of all time. I think OoT was such an accomplishment, maybe Sakurai had to add Sheik to represent it. Maybe that's why Young Link was added in Melee.
 

Diddy Kong

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Look at how much Fox changed from N64 Smash to Melee.
Donkey Kong changed a lot during those two games to.
So did Link, Samus and Captain Falcon.
Only Mario, Kirby and Pikachu played somewhat similar. And even they had a couple of moves changed.

Mario, a long time veteran suddenly got his Down B replaced for F.L.U.D.D in Brawl
Samus, another N64 veteran suddenly could be played as without her Power Suit as a whole new character in Brawl
Link also got the Gale Boomerang representing Twilight Princess

Characters change each game! And seeing as Zelda was never exactly the most popular character in the game, I see no reason for them not to change a few things now that they have the oppertunity.

And Impa, is a good oppertunity. :reverse:
 

LaniusShrike

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Well, and more importantly, Sakurai did say that he wanted to go focus more on revamping veterans instead of throwing in new characters willy-nilly. Besides, Zelda doesn't actually need a full reworking, she just needs a bunch of adjustments. Don't scrap her moveset, just change some numbers around (get rid of some of her monstrous lag).
 

Big-Cat

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Well, and more importantly, Sakurai did say that he wanted to go focus more on revamping veterans instead of throwing in new characters willy-nilly. Besides, Zelda doesn't actually need a full reworking, she just needs a bunch of adjustments. Don't scrap her moveset, just change some numbers around (get rid of some of her monstrous lag).
Those changes can add up to the point she doesn't play much like her old self, but in a good way.
 

volbound1700

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Ghirahim would likely be behind Demise and Impa when it comes to SS to appear. Demise becuase he is so easy to add as a clone of Ganon or with a new moveset and have Ganon/Ganondorf clone him.

Impa because she also can fit easily with Shiek's moveset and she is more iconic to the series. In fact both Demise and Impa are more iconic.
 

Big-Cat

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Ghirahim would likely be behind Demise and Impa when it comes to SS to appear. Demise becuase he is so easy to add as a clone of Ganon or with a new moveset and have Ganon/Ganondorf clone him.

Impa because she also can fit easily with Shiek's moveset and she is more iconic to the series. In fact both Demise and Impa are more iconic.
Demise would be far more likely as an alternate skin for Ganondorf than a playable character altogether.
 

FalKoopa

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For some reason I see Demise and Impa (besides maybe WW Zelda) to be the most likely Zelda candidates. I also see them having clonish aspects to them.
Actually I think there won't be any true clones this time. In Melee, Sakurai added clones to increase the roster. In Brawl, the only clone was Toon Link, and he was made a clone because Sakurai believed it made sense for Toon Link to be a clone.

I think Demise is even less likely than Ghirahim and Impa. Ghirahim and Impa atleast have major plot significance; Demise is only an end boss and an incarnation (for the lack of a better word) of Ganondorf.
 

volbound1700

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Demise would be far more likely as an alternate skin for Ganondorf than a playable character altogether.
That is actually how I see the two. Alts of each other or perhaps clones. The good news is that maybe Demise will get a move set with a sword and magic and Ganondorf will clone off of that now instead of the Captain Falcon clone he is now.

@ FalKoopa - Ganondorf was nothing more then Final Boss in Twilight Princess but yet his TP form got in. Nintendo tends to focus on the Final Bosses. The only villain that is not a final boss to make Smash is Wolf. Also, technically, you do fight Demise 4 times, he is just in his other form the other 3 times.
 

Scoliosis Jones

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For some reason I see Demise and Impa (besides maybe WW Zelda) to be the most likely Zelda candidates. I also see them having clonish aspects to them.
The thing is though that Demise and Ganondorf are essentially the same person.

Demise's 'hatred' is Ganondorf. So having them both in is redundant.

(again, and this is to anybody reading this, if you haven't played it and are upset that I spoiled it, whatever. It's been over a year. You should've played it by now.)

EDIT: Ignore this then. I agree with you on having them as alternate skins. Or something to that effect
 

FalKoopa

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@ FalKoopa - Ganondorf was nothing more then Final Boss in Twilight Princess but yet his TP form got in.
But Ganondorf was already in the roster.

Actually, that makes me think that Ganondorf will get a Demise inspired look this time.
 

Diddy Kong

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I'd actually like Demise. He'd have that one Ganondorf moveset we all wanted from the start. In that sence, I'd love to have him in. Especially if he'd return to the series as the main villain once again. But as of now, he's less likely than Impa. Demise is in Ganondorf's spot in Skyward Sword, yes, and Impa in Sheik's spot, so I see why you're comparing them. However remember that Ganondorf as a whole is much bigger to Zelda than Sheik. And so is Impa, though of coarse not comparable to Ganondorf.

However it's funny to note that Impa has had more apperances than Ganondorf.
 

FalKoopa

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However it's funny to note that Impa has had more apperances than Ganondorf.
It's easier to include a side character than the main villian in a game. Kinda like Toad has had more appearances than Bowser in the Mario games.
 

volbound1700

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I consider Ganon and Ganondorf to be the same so Impa hasn't had more appearances in my book. Off the top of my head, Ganon has appeared in:

Legend of Zelda
A Link to the Past
Ocarina of Time
Windwaker
Twilight Princess
Four Swords Adventures
Oracle series - although in a unique form

Referenced in Majora, Adventures of Link, and Skyward Sword.

I am not counting Link's Awakening because a boss took a form of Ganon only.
 
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Impa having more appearances than Ganondorf is only true if the Oracle games count as two games.
 

Diddy Kong

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They sure as heck both costed like they where two games. I see it as two games therefore.

Alas, screw that, both had equal amounts of appearances.

And yes, of coarse Ganon and Ganondorf are the same.
 

LaniusShrike

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I'm really hoping that alternate costumes/skins get confirmed early on... it'd make me feel a lot better about characters that probably won't get in otherwise.
 

Diddy Kong

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Well, that could count. There's also the end boss of Link's Awakening which takes on the form of Ganon in one of it's forms.
 
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I thought we were talking Ganondorf specifically?
There's no question Ganon in general has more appearances than Impa.
 

volbound1700

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Well, that could count. There's also the end boss of Link's Awakening which takes on the form of Ganon in one of it's forms.
I didn't count that if you read my list above. Taking forms not same as actual appearances. Ganon is referenced in almost every Zelda game. I think Spirit Tracks, Majoras Mask, Minish Cap, and 4 Swords are the only games that do not reference Ganon in any form or manner.
 
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