Impa, the Enigmatic Sheikah, Sage of Shadow

[Diddy Kong]

Nobody really suggested Midna should replace Sheik's moveset.

People nowadays suggest Impa could take over Sheik's moveset.

Why would that be?

 

[Frostwraith]

Nobody really suggested Midna should replace Sheik's moveset.

People nowadays suggest Impa could take over Sheik's moveset.

Why would that be?

>Implying Sheik and Impa cannot be different from each another when it comes to movesets.

Try harder.

 

[Gingerbread Man]

Whoa whoa whoa. What?

How is midna a replacement for sheik?
I think sheik was still in brawl because there was nobody to adopt her unique move set and fighting style. A replacement would take her moveset and midna wouldn't be doing that.

 

[Deleted member]

Nobody really suggested Midna should replace Sheik's moveset.

People nowadays suggest Impa could take over Sheik's moveset.

Why would that be?

Vocal minority. And it's for the most part you being as loud as multiple people.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

It wouldn't make sense to me for them to scrap one character (that is still relevant based off of OoT being the flagship Zelda game) with one for the sake of replacement. That is ****ing stupid. I want new characters that can actually add something to the game.

Wouldn't you rather have Impa as her own unique character?

 

[Frostwraith]

Almost everyone doesn't give a **** about Impa, actually.

I don't really care much about her. I think she has moveset potential and doesn't have necessarily have to be a Sheik replacement.

 

[Deleted member]

Whoa whoa whoa. What?

How is midna a replacement for sheik?
I think sheik was still in brawl because there was nobody to adopt her unique move set and fighting style. A replacement would take her moveset and midna wouldn't be doing that.

Implying Midna can't copy Sheik's moves that literally came out of nowhere.
Needles? Have her toss needles made of the energy she is able to manipulate.
Chain? Have her use a chain made of her hair.
Vanish? Self-explanatory; she can already do that.

It's not like her true form is physically incapable of mimicking Sheik's actions either.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I mean really...Impa is such an ugly name too. Like seriously, who names their kid Impa?

Better yet, who gets named Impa?

 

[Deleted member]

I just realized that now people are starting to troll the Impa thread after Diddy has trolled a few others in the past week.
It's almost as if it's going to be a full-on war.
And this music is oddly fitting:

 

[Frostwraith]

I just realized that now people are starting to troll the Impa thread after Diddy has trolled a few others in the past week.
It's almost as if it's going to be a full-on war.

It's called payback.

I still hold a grudge against Diddy Kong for bringing Impa to my Anna support thread.

And that music is very fitting...

 

[Gingerbread Man]

Implying Midna can't copy Sheik's moves that literally came out of nowhere.
Needles? Have her toss needles made of the energy she is able to manipulate.
Chain? Have her use a chain made of her hair.
Vanish? Self-explanatory; she can already do that.

It's not like her true form is physically incapable of mimicking Sheik's actions either.

Sure lets give palutena pikachu's moveset while we're at it. Just ignore all of sakurai's emphasis on making the characters like their source material.

Midna isn't a quick ninja like character. She'd be a floaty character more similar to ness with an emphasis on that dark magic stuff. Giving her the same speed, attacks and animations as sheik is just... weird.

 

[Deleted member]

Sure lets give palutena pikachu's moveset while we're at it. Just ignore all of sakurai's emphasis on making the characters like their source material.

Midna isn't a quick ninja like character. She'd be a floaty character more similar to ness with an emphasis on that dark magic stuff. Giving her the same speed, attacks and animations is just... weird.

Again; true form.
We have not seen anything from her while in that form, leaving a clean slate just like Sheik.

As for source material, how is Sheik anything like source material, or even Zelda for that matter? Does Ganondorf fight like Captain Falcon in source material? And speaking of Falcon, how is he anything like source material?
Ergo, don't pull that weak counter.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Impa just seems like a name you come up with because you just hate your child and want them made fun of. Then because they get made fun of, they become a jacked body guard to get revenge, but then they are accused of being a lesbian because of all of those thick...manly...six pack and...not so feminine...disgusting muscles.

 

[Big-Cat]

Almost everyone doesn't give a **** about Impa, actually.

I do.

 

[Gingerbread Man]

Again; true form.
We have not seen anything from her while in that form, leaving a clean slate just like Sheik.

I didn't know that's a midna people wanted. :/
Thats odd.

As for source material, how is Sheik anything like source material, or even Zelda for that matter? Does Ganondorf fight like Captain Falcon in source material? And speaking of Falcon, how is he anything like source material?
Ergo, don't pull that weak counter.

Its not weak just because you missed the point.
Its simple. If there isn't much to pull from he makes it up for whatever he thinks makes since. Midna does have plenty of material from simply how she moves, behaves and acts in the game. You can't really miss it.
Midna already has her own personality set in place from how she moves. Skaurai doesn't need to invent one. If she were in game she would use that source material. I don't care how subjective and open you claim the topic to be, slapping a midna skin on shiek does not make sense.

 

[Neanderthal]

Again; true form.
We have not seen anything from her while in that form, leaving a clean slate just like Sheik.

As for source material, how is Sheik anything like source material, or even Zelda for that matter? Does Ganondorf fight like Captain Falcon in source material? And speaking of Falcon, how is he anything like source material?
Ergo, don't pull that weak counter.

This is the weak argument.

Just because there are other examples of characters being given non-sensical movesets it doesn't mean it's okay. All of them should be fixed IMO.

 

[FlareHabanero]

I do.

Stop lying, you don't.

 

[HylianHeroBigBoss]

I do.

Me too. And though i dont condone diddy's gorilla tactics (no pun intended), i still fully support her and hope she is in the game. Its unfortunate hes caused some irreparable damage to her image within everyone here though, because i think she has a good amount of potential.

 

[Deleted member]

I didn't know that's a midna people wanted. :/
Thats odd.

Its not weak just because you missed the point.
Its simple. If there isn't much to pull from he makes it up for whatever he thinks makes since. Midna does have plenty of material from simply how she moves, behaves and acts in the game. You can't really miss it.
Midna already has her own personality set in place from how she moves. Skaurai doesn't need to invent one. If she were in game she would use that source material. I don't care how subjective and open you claim the topic to be, slapping a midna skin on shiek does not make sense.

Captain Ganon.
Your argument is completely invalid.

 

[Neanderthal]

Captain Ganon.
Your argument is completely invalid.

Captain Ganon is a mistake too. Two mistakes don't make a right.

Edit: He can't hear me because he blocked me.... Unless someone quotes me.

 

[Big-Cat]

Stop lying, you don't.

I'm serious. I think Shelda is a horribly executed concept and that they're better off separating the two, have Impa take Sheik's place, and then make Sheik an unlockable skin for Impa. There, everyone freaking wins. Why is it that this option is barely considered?

Oh, that's right, idiots think that TRANSFORMING INTO A FAR MORE USEFUL CHARACTER is Zelda's unique trait while ignoring EVERYTHING ELSE SHE HAS AS ZELDA.

 

[Gingerbread Man]

Captain Ganon.
Your argument is completely invalid.

An altered captain ganon still makes a hell of a lot more sense than ninja midna. Not meaning to imply that I support how ganon is now anyways.

Besides we're talking about replacements here not clones. Midna wouldn't replace sheik. Impa might.

 

[FlareHabanero]

The problem with Zelda is Zelda, not Sheik. Removing Sheik is not going to automatically solve every problem Zelda has.

 

[Gingerbread Man]

The problem with Zelda is Zelda, not Sheik. Removing Sheik is not going to automatically solve every problem Zelda has.

well a new down b would be one.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I'm serious. I think Shelda is a horribly executed concept and that they're better off separating the two, have Impa take Sheik's place, and then make Sheik an unlockable skin for Impa. There, everyone freaking wins. Why is it that this option is barely considered?

Oh, that's right, idiots think that TRANSFORMING INTO A FAR MORE USEFUL CHARACTER is Zelda's unique trait while ignoring EVERYTHING ELSE SHE HAS AS ZELDA.

I think the mechanic works fine. And both transformations cover the other's weaknesses (granted Sheik is all the while better). This is what makes Zelda unique to the roster, not to mention that Sheik is a part of Zelda's moveset because they're the same person.

My belief is frankly the opposite. Why replace Sheik with Impa if they essentially represent the same thing? The game gains nothing from replacing an old character with a new one with the EXACT same moveset.

Am I the only one who thinks that?

 

[Deleted member]

All separating the two will do is give each side one extra move and their own slot. Zelda will still be ignored and the Sheik side (be it Sheik or Impa) will still dominate.

Separation does absolutely nothing to benefit Zelda (unless that one move she gets in replacement just so happens to be a key move, but the odds of that are rather slim) and the only purpose it serves is to be lazy and just remove a flawed concept entirely instead of trying to fix it as well as appeal to those that get off on what's relevant.

And Sheik as an Impa skin is the same as making Waluigi a Luigi skin.
Inconsistent body frame, as the "Impa as Sheik" thing Diddy posted earlier shows.
Unless making Sheik lanky and anorexic to fit the model seems like a good idea.

 

[FlareHabanero]

well a new down b would be one.

Alright, how will a new down special solve Zelda's problem with approaching and combos?

 

[Gingerbread Man]

Alright, how will a new down special solve Zelda's problem with approaching and combos?

I'm no zelda expert. Why ask me?

I'm sure somebody can think of something creative. Another very useful move can go a long way.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

One move cannot fix a moveset that is already ******.

Zelda needs moar F.L.U.D.D

 

[Deleted member]

An altered captain ganon still makes a hell of a lot more sense than ninja midna. Not meaning to imply that I support how ganon is now anyways.

Besides we're talking about replacements here not clones. Midna wouldn't replace sheik. Impa might.

Never said she will.
If you had bothered to read what was being said previously, you would see that what was being said was that she could have logically served as Sheik's replacement due to Sheik being irrelevant. She wouldn't need to exactly be like Sheik, just take her place. (Though she could be like Sheik if that's what's necessary.)
Impa is the same issue. She could take Sheik's place just like Midna could have, and she could be like Sheik just like Midna could have (and would be ridiculous taking Sheik's moves, just like you say Midna would have been), though if Sakurai was not worried about irrelevance then, why would he be worried now? Especially when there is the OoT Remake as well as the nods to Sheik in Tekken Tag Tournament 2 and Scribblenauts Unlimited?

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

He does have a point. If Sheik wasn't relevant to Nintendo, why advertise Sheik in all of those different opportunities?

 

[Gingerbread Man]

I looked at shiek's inclusion in brawl as not wanting to scrap a perfectly good moveset. Impa could be used to salvage the play style while adding a more prominent character.

On a side note, didn't they think that sheik was going to be in twilight princess? I honestly don't know. I heard Sakurai used some sort of concept from the game but idk if he knew she wasn't going to be in it.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I looked at shiek's inclusion in brawl as not wanting to scrap a perfectly good moveset. Impa could be used to salvage the play style while adding a more prominent character.

On a side note, didn't they think that sheik was going to be in twilight princess? I honestly don't know. I heard Sakurai used some sort of concept from the game but idk if he knew she wasn't going to be in it.

Sheik had concept designs for Twilight Princess if I remember correctly

 

[Neanderthal]

One move cannot fix a moveset that is already ******.

Zelda needs moar F.L.U.D.D

To be fair, it is possible to hugely improve a moveset with one (down B) move.
As seen with Fox and Falco in Melee. What would they have been without their down B? Definitely not in the top tier anymore.

 

[Deleted member]

Sheik had concept designs for Twilight Princess if I remember correctly

Sakurai said that Sheik's model was based on a design that was drafted up during the development of Twilight Princess.

However, Hyrule Historia says that the design was drafted specifically for Brawl.
One would think that this is a contradiction, but it's not after closer analysis.

Sakurai only said that the design was drafted up during TP's development; he did not say it was designed for TP itself.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Sakurai said that Sheik's model was based on a design that was drafted up during the development of Twilight Princess.

However, Hyrule Historia says that the design was drafted specifically for Brawl.
One would think that this is a contradiction, but it's not after closer analysis.

Sakurai only said that the design was drafted up during TP's development; he did not say it was designed for TP itself.

So essentially, Sakurai didn't even care that Sheik wasn't appearing in Twilight Princess? That means something then if you ask me.

 

[Deleted member]

So essentially, Sakurai didn't even care that Sheik wasn't appearing in Twilight Princess? That means something then if you ask me.

Also, I looked through Hyrule Historia to see if there happened to be concept art for a design for Sheik in Skyward Sword.
There isn't, but.....
One of Impa's concept arts is referred to as "Sheik-like clothes".

So while obviously, the stature would not suit Sheik, Sakurai wouldn't be looking at the stature, would he? He'd be looking at the design and possibly base Sheik's new Smash 4 design off of it.

Guess a Skyward Sheik isn't so farfetched now, is it?

 

[Bowserlick]

Here is where we separate the adults from the children.

Arguments have been used, opinions have been screamed.

Predict what you think will happen. Transformation or separation?

 

[Big-Cat]

I think the mechanic works fine. And both transformations cover the other's weaknesses (granted Sheik is all the while better). This is what makes Zelda unique to the roster, not to mention that Sheik is a part of Zelda's moveset because they're the same person.

My belief is frankly the opposite. Why replace Sheik with Impa if they essentially represent the same thing? The game gains nothing from replacing an old character with a new one with the EXACT same moveset.

Am I the only one who thinks that?

The problem with this logic and Sakurai's is that you're trying to balance the two not only against the rest of the cast, but against each other in terms of attributes. Another problem is that the two designs are polar opposites of one another in a very poor attempt at going for a yin-yang approach. Yin and Yang have a little bit of each other in them. Sheik and Zelda do not, thus any synergy they would've had is gone.

Again, there's a hell of a lot more they can do with Zelda. As Project M has shown us, she easily has the potential to be the Mu-12 or Parasoul of the Smash franchise as a frightening trapper/zoner, but her tools are so watered down from what they could be that she stinks. As Habanero mentioned, her biggest issues are her means of approaching (which are none IIRC) and racking up damage. Take a look at this BlazBlue video. Tell me whether or not, with some changes, that Mu-12's playstyle could be implemented into Zelda and make her stand out. There, she's unique without a ****ty gimmick. For a frame of reference, the diamond things are Din's Fire and the Diamond Shield is Nayru's Love.

All separating the two will do is give each side one extra move and their own slot. Zelda will still be ignored and the Sheik side (be it Sheik or Impa) will still dominate.

Separation does absolutely nothing to benefit Zelda (unless that one move she gets in replacement just so happens to be a key move, but the odds of that are rather slim) and the only purpose it serves is to be lazy and just remove a flawed concept entirely instead of trying to fix it as well as appeal to those that get off on what's relevant.

And Sheik as an Impa skin is the same as making Waluigi a Luigi skin.
Inconsistent body frame, as the "Impa as Sheik" thing Diddy posted earlier shows.
Unless making Sheik lanky and anorexic to fit the model seems like a good idea.

No, separating the two can do more than that. As I said above, the problem with the Shelda design is that their attributes against each other which simply doesn't work. There's also still the issue of Zelda's moves being so awful in a game where speed and mobility are king. I almost wonder if the reason Zelda is so weak is because giving her too many options would've made Shelda broken by having too many total options.

And saying Impa on Sheik is like Waluigi on Luigi is not necessarily true. You're forgetting how art styles can change proportions. Case in point, Wind Waker Ganondorf was never fat once you realized that the guys in Wind Waker were deliberately drawn top heavy as seen below.

Spoiler

Sakurai said that Sheik's model was based on a design that was drafted up during the development of Twilight Princess.

However, Hyrule Historia says that the design was drafted specifically for Brawl.
One would think that this is a contradiction, but it's not after closer analysis.

Sakurai only said that the design was drafted up during TP's development; he did not say it was designed for TP itself.

Both may be true in another way. I highly doubt all the concept art we saw in Hyrule Historia was all the concept art that was drawn up during development. It's possible that there was an initial Sheik design for Twilight Princess that never fell into the hands of the public. The design we see in Brawl may have been a revision of this initial design. Still, this is speculating on something we may never know the exact answer to.

 

[Bowserlick]

Zelda and Sheik need attacks that transform them. Lag is less important if the move also has a hitbox. Just make the transformation an attack, simple.

Sheik is fine.

Zelda has too many weaknesses. Sheik really has one glaring weakness: KO potential. And that is good. She can still gimp.

Zelda is floaty, no approach, and can't rack up damage. She only needs one glaring weakness. Racking up damage. Her moves can be fine tuned for that. Give her a faster grab animation. Make her Up B more directional. Don't make her lag on so many moves.