Impa, the Enigmatic Sheikah, Sage of Shadow

[Frostwraith]

Roy was outprioriticed by Ike
Lucario by Mewtwo
Young Link was replaced for Toon Link

Why wouldn't Impa replace Sheik?

Mewtwo and Roy were to appear alongside Lucario and Ike. They didn't make the cut due to time constraints.

 

[8-peacock-8]

Roy was outprioriticed by Ike
Lucario by Mewtwo

Seriously though, yeah you were way off there.

 

[Deleted member]

If it means reworking Zelda's character count me in.

 

[Bowserlick]

I love the Up B, Darting Shadows as a special move posted in the OP.

But I still find this bandwagon of separating Zelda and Sheik silly. Just make the transformations also an attack. Solved.

 

[FlareHabanero]

If it means reworking Zelda's character count me in.

Because Zelda will automatically become a god tier character when Sheik is not involved...

 

[LaniusShrike]

Because Zelda will automatically become a god tier character when Sheik is not involved...

All people want is for her to seem like an actual character, and not like she's just there to make sure Sheik only gets three specials. Nobody wants her to be a god tier character, we just want her to be a character at all. She's got a good recovery, a nice side special, a useful neutral special, and fairly effective smash attacks...
And yet, she is still not actually that good, since she isn't designed to actually be playable without starting off the fight as Sheik. And, since transforming mid-fight isn't actually a practical option, it means that it just makes more sense to play the entire match as Sheik even though you may have wanted to play Zelda/Sheik. Bleh.

A really unfortunate game design choice that I think SSB4 should do away with.

And then add in a new, independent character, Impa.

 

[Bowserlick]

Zelda's down B could be a special attack/ability that also turns her into Sheik afterwards.
Sheik's down B could be a special attack/ability that also turns her into Zelda afterwards.

 

[LaniusShrike]

Zelda's down B could be a special attack/ability that also turns her into Sheik afterwards.
Sheik's down B could be a special attack/ability that also turns her into Zelda afterwards.

I dunno, still doesn't really fix the balancing issues. I guess I just have very little faith in their ability to balance individual characters in the first place, let alone two characters slapped together. I just hope they don't keep it that way since it's clearly not worked for two games already.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Zelda's down B could be a special attack/ability that also turns her into Sheik afterwards.
Sheik's down B could be a special attack/ability that also turns her into Zelda afterwards.

Sakurai will make Zelda's turning into Sheik attack Zelda's best attack, and vise versa, Sheik's worst attack.

Zelda has the best Down B in Melee

 

[Bowserlick]

I dunno, still doesn't really fix the balancing issues. I guess I just have very little faith in their ability to balance individual characters in the first place, let alone two characters slapped together. I just hope they don't keep it that way since it's clearly not worked for two games already.

Sheik is fixed. Her role is damage dealer, she should have a very hard time getting a kill. Zelda has more than one problem. She is slow, laggy, and floaty.

Those should not be her problems. She should have a hard time putting on damage. Other than that, Zelda can be made into more of a stand-alone character than Sheik. Because Sheik is Zelda.

 

[LaniusShrike]

Sheik is fixed. Her role is damage dealer, she should have a very hard time getting a kill. Zelda has more than one problem. She is slow, laggy, and floaty.

Those should not be her problems. She should have a hard time putting on damage. Other than that, Zelda can be made into more of a stand-alone character than Sheik. Because Sheik is Zelda.

Yeah, Sheik does her role a lot more cleanly than Zelda does. It's still impractical to actually switch characters for the kill, even ignoring the fact that Zelda isn't good enough to want to do it in the first place.

I mean, I get that some people don't want Sheik to be a separated character because Sheik is just Zelda in disguise so having both on the roster would feel strange, but the fact is that Sheik as she is now in no way represents the current Zelda character. I'm really fine with the concept of Sheik being OoT Zelda in disguise, while the other Zelda is whatever Zelda is most recent. Is that really different from having two Links from different time periods?

 

[Bowserlick]

I feel Sheik does represent Zelda's character. I feel the transformation is a mechanic that captures Zelda's identity as the holder of the Triforce of Wisdom.

Ganondorf's KO and damage output represent the Triforce of Power and Link's "Swiss-Army Knife" arsenal flavorfully reflects the Triforce of Courage.

Zelda needs a quicker grab so she could be played more defensively. And perhaps a better teleport to shore up her other movement weaknesses.

 

[LaniusShrike]

I feel Sheik does represent Zelda's character. I feel the transformation is a mechanic that captures Zelda's identity as the holder of the Triforce of Wisdom.

Ganondorf's KO and damage output represent the Triforce of Power and Link's "Swiss-Army Knife" arsenal flavorfully reflects the Triforce of Courage.

Zelda needs a quicker grab so she could be played more defensively. And perhaps a better teleport to shore up her other movement weaknesses.

I feel like Sheik represents Ocarina of Time... but how does it represent the franchise Zelda as a character? She has the Triforce of Wisdom, not the Triforce of Agility. Her thing is wielding divine magic, not throwing ninja darts and swinging chains.

Yeah, really, Zelda needs a lot of different things fixed in order to make her actually fun to play.

 

[Bowserlick]

The Sheikah exist in several Zelda games, not just Ocarina of time.

Zelda is disguised more than once. Seems to be her thing. She was also a pirate.

Zelda compliments divine magic with aggression.

 

[LaniusShrike]

The Sheikah exist in several Zelda games, not just Ocarina of time.

Zelda is disguised more than once. Seems to be her thing. She was also a pirate.

Zelda compliments divine magic with aggression.

Sheik is not a Sheikah. Sheik is a princess wearing a Halloween costume.

Tetra wasn't a disguise. Tetra was Zelda not knowing she was Zelda... that reflects ignorance more than wisdom.

"Aggression" doesn't mean mastery of a mystic tribe's tools and talents.

 

[Bowserlick]

I think the bottom line is that Namco is helping with balance. They are bringing fighting game knowledge to the series. If Sakurai says to them, can you balance Zelda and Sheik to work as they were suppose to operate, I do not think Namco is going to betray their intelligence and say," Well, the only way is to split them apart. We cannot do what you ask."

Namco is going to prove themselves.

* Changing Sheik to Impa in order to reflect Skyward Sword as a aesthetic difference is OK by me.

 

[LaniusShrike]

I think the bottom line is that Namco is helping with balance. They are bringing fighting game knowledge to the series. If Sakurai says to them, can you balance Zelda and Sheik to work as they were suppose to operate, I do not think Namco is going to betray their intelligence and say," Well, the only way is to split them apart. We cannot do what you ask."

Namco is going to prove themselves.

I mean, I personally want them separated for a lot of different reasons, not just balancing. I'm hoping that Sakurai says to them "Can you turn this one sloppy character into two awesome characters?"

Also, apparently Sakurai was literally the only person balancing the characters in the past games. Having an actual team doing the balance work is already going to be great... having an experienced team like Namco working on it should be great.

Even if they end up balancing Sheik/Zelda properly and get rid of the transformation lag and vulnerability, I'll be sad that they didn't turn them into two cool characters instead of one.

 

[Bowserlick]

Right, if Sakurai wants them separated then that is what Namco will do.

I think Sakurai really likes gimmicks and character defining mechanics. My guess will be that he does not separate them. But we will see.

 

[LaniusShrike]

Right, if Sakurai wants them separated then that is what Namco will do.

I think Sakurai really likes gimmicks and character defining mechanics. My guess will be that he does not separate them. But we will see.

Oh, I don't think he will either. I just think it'd make more sense and be better all around.

Anyway, back to Impa topics I guess. I really think it'd be cool if Nintendo made a series of off-shoot games where you'd play characters that aren't Link.
I bet a lot of people have seen this proposal for a playable Zelda:

I think it could be fun to play a game as Impa, going around ensuring the continued safety of the Hyrulean royalty while exploring ancient Sheikah roots to become more powerful.
OR, playing the Sheikah who ultimately betrays the Royal Family after a series of hard decisions.
(From the LoZ Manga: "Sheik explains the story of the Sheikah emblem, stating that there was one instance of betrayal from the Royal Family toward the Sheikah, and they were banished out of Hyrule, so the tear was added on the Shadow Folk emblem to commemorate this event.")

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

Impa should have a moveset that reflects all of her incarnations, including Fat Princess Impa. That would be pure fanservice for the Impa fans.

 

[Big-Cat]

I think the bottom line is that Namco is helping with balance. They are bringing fighting game knowledge to the series. If Sakurai says to them, can you balance Zelda and Sheik to work as they were suppose to operate, I do not think Namco is going to betray their intelligence and say," Well, the only way is to split them apart. We cannot do what you ask."

Namco is going to prove themselves.

* Changing Sheik to Impa in order to reflect Skyward Sword as a aesthetic difference is OK by me.

Or, they may feel that you get more out of both by separating them. Making Zelda the Mu-12 of Smash (go google it, I'm not explaining this again) would make her a truly great character for once. Meanwhile Sheik turns into Impa and gets some new stuff while they're at it.

While they're at it, make Pokemon Trainer feel like an actual team and not a chore.

 

[Bowserlick]

I would imagine developing Smash is a privilege and that companies would love the chance. I doubt Namco, after getting the gig, is going to say that they cannot balance Zelda without separating them.

I would say that if Sakurai wants them to remain united, Namco will do their best to make it happen and be balanced.

So what are your predictions on this? Separate or transformation? Say it before the reveal.

 

[Big-Cat]

Just because it's what Sakurai wants (if he still wants it) doesn't mean that's what he'll get.

I wouldn't be surprised if they at least attempt to balance the two together though. And why not go ahead and separate Samus and Zero Suit Samus. I never hear of anyone using those two together.

 

[Bowserlick]

So your prediction is transformation?
That is what I am guessing.

 

[Big-Cat]

I'm not going to make a prediction as that's pointless. I'm just saying that they'll at least try what's been done already before trying something different.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Impa has lot of potential as a fighter:

1) Stand-alone fighter
2) Tagged with Zelda as a Zelda/Sheik-like duo
3) As Zelda's shadow figure following up her attacks
4) As a litteral Zelda / Impa duo character where you control both characters on screen

 

[Bowserlick]

I'm not going to make a prediction as that's pointless. I'm just saying that they'll at least try what's been done already before trying something different.

Pointless?
I find that predictions make speculation more fun and in a sense, makes speculation less pointless.

 

[Spire]

Roy was outprioriticed by Ike
Lucario by Mewtwo
Young Link was replaced for Toon Link

Why wouldn't Impa replace Sheik?

This is completely valid. I do not see why people disagree with this. Mewtwo and Roy were planned for Brawl, but because they didn't make the cut and Lucario and Ike did, the priorities are obvious. Lucario and Ike were given more attention and thus finished on time. Mewtwo and Roy were not. Maybe they were all on an equal level at one point, earlier on in development. But the fact that two were finished and two were not shows that decisions had to be made to finish whatever was possible and Ike and Lucario took precedence.

 

[Deleted member]

I think people confused "out-prioritized" with "replaced", as that's a common flawed argument towards Mewtwo and Roy.
They may not have been replaced, but they WERE out-prioritized. But then again, Jigglypuff was also out-prioritized by PT and Lucario, so that's a moot point. Jigglypuff is just different than Mewtwo in that she was able to be kept on the roster while he/it wasn't.

However, in terms of Impa, if Sheik was meant to be out-prioritized by someone, it would have happened already, since the situation for Sheik is no different than it was before, aside from OoT's remake, the summon in Scribblenauts Unlimited for Wii U, and the costume in Tekken Tag Team Tournament 2.

Midna's true form could have served a decent replacement as some people see Impa now. But it didn't happen. Why would it happen now with someone else?

 

[Spire]

I guess ultimately Jigglypuff out-prioritized Mewtwo in being one of the original 12.

BUT MEWTWO WAS PLANNED BEFORE JIGGS FOR SMASH 64, UGHGHGHGHHHHH!!! I will never get past that decision. Politically I guess it worked because Japan loves Purin, but imagine if Mewtwo had been in Smash 64. I think that roster would have been perfect. Having two pink balloon characters is pushing it, but Mewtwo, ughgiosh;oiajd;a. Smash 64's roster would be 100% perfect with Mewtwo instead of Jiggs, just that, always that. Mewtwo would have added that antagonism that the roster lacked (and that Metal Mario, Giant Donkey Kong, and Master Hand made up for?), but because it's a Pokémon, it would ultimately be neutral in alignment. Had Mewtwo been in Smash 64, Mewtwo would be in Brawl and there'd be no clamoring for its return for Smash 4 because it'd be guaranteed. Mewtwo 4ever.

 

[Gingerbread Man]

Just because it's what Sakurai wants (if he still wants it) doesn't mean that's what he'll get.

I wouldn't be surprised if they at least attempt to balance the two together though. And why not go ahead and separate Samus and Zero Suit Samus. I never hear of anyone using those two together.

A bit off topic but yes. PLEASE separate samus and ZSS. I'm tired of not being able to use the smashball when I'm with my friends.

 

[Deleted member]

I guess ultimately Jigglypuff out-prioritized Mewtwo in being one of the original 12.

BUT MEWTWO WAS PLANNED BEFORE JIGGS FOR SMASH 64, UGHGHGHGHHHHH!!! I will never get past that decision. Politically I guess it worked because Japan loves Purin, but imagine if Mewtwo had been in Smash 64. I think that roster would have been perfect. Having two pink balloon characters is pushing it, but Mewtwo, ughgiosh;oiajd;a. Smash 64's roster would be 100% perfect with Mewtwo instead of Jiggs, just that, always that. Mewtwo would have added that antagonism that the roster lacked (and that Metal Mario, Giant Donkey Kong, and Master Hand made up for?), but because it's a Pokémon, it would ultimately be neutral in alignment. Had Mewtwo been in Smash 64, Mewtwo would be in Brawl and there'd be no clamoring for its return for Smash 4 because it'd be guaranteed. Mewtwo 4ever.

While Mewtwo has been stated to have been planned, there is nothing that states Mewtwo was planned before Jigglypuff.

And yeah, I agree that Smash 64 was lacking in antagonism, notably that not was Mewtwo cut, but so was Bowser and King Dedede.

 

[HylianHeroBigBoss]

A bit off topic but yes. PLEASE separate samus and ZSS. I'm tired of not being able to use the smashball when I'm with my friends.

A better solution to that would be letting her transform via a taunt, theres no reason to separate them to separate selection spots. We now know she can transform at will via other m and the zero suit, so she wont have to lose her armor in bits like before.

 

[Spire]

A better solution to that would be letting her transform via a taunt, theres no reason to separate them to separate selection spots. We now know she can transform at will via other m and the zero suit, so she wont have to lose her armor in bits like before.

This just slaps Zelda and Sheik so hard though. If Samus/ZSS get to transform via taunt, so too should Zelda and Sheik.

Samus and ZSS should never be separated. Aside from the difference in ability, they are no different from Wario's classic and biker costumes. Just two different outfits that Samus wears.

 

[Gingerbread Man]

A better solution to that would be letting her transform via a taunt, theres no reason to separate them to separate selection spots. We now know she can transform at will via other m and the zero suit, so she wont have to lose her armor in bits like before.

As long as its easy to use. Its not practical to use transform in brawl if your using a game cube controller. Its too difficult.

 

[Big-Cat]

This just slaps Zelda and Sheik so hard though. If Samus/ZSS get to transform via taunt, so too should Zelda and Sheik.

Samus and ZSS should never be separated. Aside from the difference in ability, they are no different from Wario's classic and biker costumes. Just two different outfits that Samus wears.

Take away the Samus skin and the two are completely different playstyles. That difference in ability is EVERYTHING.

Besides, it's definitely not uncommon for alternate takes on characters to be separate from the original. I mean, we have Evil Ryu, Devil Jin, and EX Kyo. At least Zero Suit Samus plays absolutely nothing like Power Suit Samus.The only other characters I can think of that are like this are Sol to Order Sol and Noel to Mu-12.

 

[Curious Villager]

A bit off topic but yes. PLEASE separate samus and ZSS. I'm tired of not being able to use the smashball when I'm with my friends.

I think it is possible to become ZSS right before you start a match by pressing a certain button without even having the smash ball turned on, no?

 

[Spire]

Zelda and Sheik won't split, neither will Samus and ZSS. Playstyle was not enough to separate them to begin with because their core identity is the same. That's why they opted for joint playstyles, albeit by different means for Zamus and Shielda. Transform via Final Smash, transform via Down Special.

If they worked Final Smashes into core gameplay, like you built them up like Limit Breaks, then Zamus's playstyle would change quite a bit as players could now work to transform. A more rewarding form of playstyle change? Zelda's would be more controllable whereas Samus's would be incidental.

 

[Gingerbread Man]

I think it is possible to become ZSS right before you start a match by pressing a certain button without even having the smash ball turned on, no?

It is. My point is that I want to be able to use smashballs as ZSS without becoming normal samus.

 

[Curious Villager]

It is. My point is that I want to be able to use smashballs as ZSS without becoming normal samus.

Oh I get you now. Yeah, I suppose they should try implementing a way where you can activate their final smash without getting the forced transformation. Perhaps if you were to hold on to the Final Smash button until it finishes it could trigger the transformation to be cancelled? :/