IMMA FIRIN' MAH LAZOR! - R.O.B. Social

[DrinkingFood]

ive been thinking about a way to nerf rob's recovery that wouldn't totally **** rob over. upb from ground stays the same but from the air it gets significantly shorter. that way rob still has dthrow followups but cant make it back from the depths, maybe would have to actually use agt to make it back. i think shortening rob's side b would probably **** him over but then again the aerial dash dance would be quicker so im not really sure. o ya and not sure if this is well known but as of now you can agt up -> double jump -> up b -> agt again. not super useful now since rob usually makes it back anyway.

Better yet:

Better alternatives- make his ledge sweetspot for side-b less absurd, reduce or remove extra momentum gained when interrupting an up-b at the end with an aerial, make dair into a stall-less meteor that has more combo utility or simply reduce further the stall ability it has. There, now his recovery is super linear and predictable, gimpable, but still goes an above average distance, good for gimping, but overall mediocre for recovering against an active opponent.

 

[Sneez]

i feel like if you really need to get that high to follow up they are gonna already have enough time to jump away in most cases

 

[DrinkingFood]

^That's usually the case. It's best to boost straight off the ground for the aerial follow-up for two reasons-
Jumpstart is an extra 5 frames of lag that you don't have to go through if you boost straight off the ground. Boost itself has 5 frames of start-up lag, so if you just boost you save 5 frames from jump+boost.
Up-b goes farther and moves faster. Any time you spend moving from your jump is lost time you could have been moving during your boost. Up-b also goes higher than fullhop and can be extended by waiting til the last possible moment to aerial.

Only ever time you don't want to boost to follow up out of a dthrow is if you are trying to combo. If they can't be chaingrabbed or juggled with upair (meaning they aren't a FFer or floaty respectively) then SH fair into regrab or into a fair chain are times when you wouldn't want to boost to follow up dthrow. Otherwise at high percents boost upair works wonders to send offstage, boost bair is better at that but only if you can hit it (usually can't if they DI forward), or boost nair will kill them off the top (but it's even slower and harder to hit and requires frame perfection in a lot of cases and usually doesn't work if they DI forward).

 

[Dandizzle]

Goes to show how good Dthrow is considering I've been getting away with this 90% of the time. Btw what would do more damage to shield, nair, bair or fair-->jabjab? And does the boost bonus affect how much it does to shield?

 

[(1UP)]

Goes to show how good Dthrow is considering I've been getting away with this 90% of the time. Btw what would do more damage to shield, nair, bair or fair-->jabjab? And does the boost bonus affect how much it does to shield?

nair should do the most, followed by bair, but it also has less shieldstun than bair i believe.
anything using his booster (is that what it's called?) eg. nair, bair, dair, u-smash, deals extra shield damage. the former three deal 6 extra, while u-smash deals 12 more. meaning that stuff like boost dair > bair can actually hit shields very hard, in addition to being safe against most of the cast.

not sure if boosted aerials do more shield damage, but i assume that the extra 2 damage would tack some on.

inb4 3.5 discussions tomorrow, we'll see if gyro's weird hitbox nuances have been touched on at all. if not, be prepared to laugh a little

 

[Dandizzle]

I don't think R.O.B has been mentioned literally once in the trailer, on twitter or on the PM website. I don't think our 3.5 discussion is going anywhere lol. And I'll be super salty if we don't get more recolors, characters with as few as R.O.B have gotten more over time. If anything changes I'll try to experiment with it, but honestly with all the nerfs R.O.B is probably going to be much better, change or not. And sorry if these questions seem nooby I don't really do lab work just get my tech down and go for the dank reads (or what works)

By the way does anyone agree with this from the R.O.B character page?
"Smashes are not where ROB shines on the ground though. It is his Tilts which are second to none."
Like what? I love those smashes. And for some reason non R.O.B players seem to have a hard on for his foward titlt, but I can't see the hype because of the way he stretches his hurtbox so far foward, or so it seems. Also CC, Lag, etc.

 

[DrinkingFood]

By the way does anyone agree with this from the R.O.B character page?
"Smashes are not where ROB shines on the ground though. It is his Tilts which are second to none."
Like what? I love those smashes. And for some reason non R.O.B players seem to have a hard on for his foward titlt, but I can't see the hype because of the way he stretches his hurtbox so far foward, or so it seems. Also CC, Lag, etc.

Ftilt isn't all it's cracked up to be gets CC'd easy, sweetspot isn't even that strong. Samus' ftilt is better in every way, and there are certainly ftilts that outshine hers for certain uses. ROB doesn't even have a quick or long wd to make use of good tilt spacing. Utilt is mediocre too because of having no horizontal reach at all, and having a weak first hitbox that allows ASDI to escape the second hit sometimes. Dtilt is amazing tho. Fsmash is mediocre, it's good for spacing/baiting if you have them in a tight situation but that is a scenario limited in frequency. Dsmash is good, it's great against anyone who doesn't hold up or plays fox. Usmash is one of his best finishers and combined with DACUS can be good if opponents get to dependant on spacing with fill hopped or double jumped aerials; also good OoS if they are don't figure out to CC it lol.

 

[Dandizzle]

Samus is gooooooooooooooooooooooooood character

 

[DrinkingFood]

I've been saying for awhile now that I think she has the best neutral game, and that she's a top ten character.

 

[Dandizzle]

So I have stayed up all night and played some 3.5 R.O.B with a guy online, and even though the changes might seem dumb on paper I can *cough* *kinda* see where they were coming from, R.O.B does a lot better overall in 3.5. They really toned down a lot of the top tiers of 3.0 so it's easier for R.O.B to handle them plus engine changes like the landing detection make him feel a bit more crispy. Also DACUS is more accessible than ever so you really should learn to do it. I'm getting my gamecube controller adapter for my PC tomorrow and I am gonna play 3.5 with L_Pag all day tomorrow, maybe go to a tourney on Sunday. I'll share what other impressions I'll get.

 

[(1UP)]

heh, I've had the 2 frame DACUS window since I started playing this character - do be conservative with it or people will start looking out for it

That airdodge out of boost change, which I consider the most important, affects wave landing on, so more emphasis now on either recovering high or hurrying to get to the ledge

 

[zephyrnereus]

wait... does that mean that he can't air dodge on the last boost? or does that mean he can't if someone tries to make a 4th fail boost and tries to cancel that into the air dodge?

 

[Baky]

That airdodge out of boost change, which I consider the most important, affects wave landing on, so more emphasis now on either recovering high or hurrying to get to the ledge

Why would they change that? ROBs already linear recovery has been reduced to even more linearity.

 

[Jity]

I assume it was part of the sweeping changes made to nerf recoveries. Honestly, between that and the ledge snap reduction, ROB's recovery got way more predictable. Picking stages with a high top platform to recover to safely are going to be more important in 3.5.

Most importantly, though, is that it takes away wavelanding out of the third boost, which affects not only recovery, but also the neutral; I used to tomahawk grabs out of boosts as a mixup, and now that option isn't there if I decide to dash dance my boosts. Even though that's a niche situation, taking away that option sucks a little bit.

Overall, though, some characters were hit way harder than ROB, and we even got a slightly bigger shield now so that maybe we won't be instantly shield poked even at full strength. Even if ROB is very very slightly worse now, (which, even that I think is debateable), his strength in relationship to the other characters is higher than in 3.0.

Edit: After playing around with ROB for a little, I've discovered that he actually can waveland out of his third boost if he's almost touching the ground. Like, "Almost landing by default" nearly touching the ground. Not sure how practical or even reliable this is, but it's something I guess.

 

[Dandizzle]

I don't necessarily agree with what I said before, I mean they nerfed the top tiers but R.O.B didn't even do that bad against them anyway. There still seems to be a lot of characters that can **** on R.O.B and he does even worse against some of them then before. @JCaesar It amazes me how every patch you not only make this character even worse, but less fun to play. Can you or anyone in the backroom at least explain the thought process besides some of your choices? Up air was one his best moves and now it's pretty terrible. So I have to try to gimp characters with great recoveries with fair or get them to high percent to get them off the top if they aren't floaty. What does R.O.B even excel at that someone can't do better anymore?

 

[Jams.]

I haven't had a chance to play 3.5 yet so I could be totally wrong, but didn't ROB's boost uair only eat a 1% damage reduction on every hitbox? That doesn't seem like it could move uair to terrible status.

 

[DayQuil]

Man, I feel like I have to learn my movement all over again. No more long wavelands after boosting on the ground, different platform waveland timing, different wavedash timing. Maybe it was for the best

 

[Dandizzle]

That's what I thought before I played all day today. It doesn't do much damage at all, and it isn't even a good kill move anymore. You get more out of landing any other aerial besides pressing people on a platform above you. And with the other nerfs he just isn't as good or fun but a lot of other people got nerfed so fighting them is ok.

 

[DrinkingFood]

1% decrease on boosted uair damage means it kills like 15% later. It's pretty significant.
Might be time to start more experimenting with dthrow to boosted nair/bair for kills on some characters.

 

[Dandizzle]

But nair aint killing till late unless they are floaty and if bair followups become the bread and butter everyone gonna be DIing the followup correctly. Honestly I can only have fun playing R.O.B anymore against like spacies and a few other matchups, I don't really have an excuse to bring him out in a serious setting against most characters. It's just a shame because I love him and I'm ass at learning someone new.

 

[(1UP)]

and then there's this thing called an offstage game,
Ours was already good and now it's a whole lot better

sorry I'm actually staying positive, since its apparently a crime among ROB players - the one wish I had (that gyro was left untouched) was granted, and compared to some other characters, we got off easy

for the record, I'm not happy with the uair nerf either, though to me that just means no kills at like 60% on yoshis heh

 

[Jams.]

No, our offstage game sucks now because we can't airdodge after 3rd boost to get back anymore, dair doesn't stall as much, there's now a visual indicator for our last boost, stuff, things, etc. /s

I hoped for a shield size increase and expected a recovery nerf. Everything else was kind of random (more endlag on grounded sideb, OK...?), but didn't seem to change ROB's overall style. I need to actually grind games with ROB to get a holistic impression of how he is in 3.5 though.

Also, I can't discern what "knockback compensated" actually means in reference to the super laser. I feel like it means the knockback was reduced, but compensate is usually used in a positive manner. Could somebody confirm what it means please? X.X

 

[Dandizzle]

Ugh I can't win with you people, one day I'm too positive the next I'm a negative nelly. You can argue the overall viability of the new R.O.B, I personally think he's worse, but he doesn't feel as good to me because of these nerfs. Somethings are smoother but I don't enjoy playing R.O.B nearly as much as I did last patch because I feel even more restricted in my options than ever before. I really don't see how the character needed all these changes that are mostly negative, and the ones that are positive just seem random to me. The potential of this character seems very low in comparison to the others and 3.5 R.O.B is leaving me very disappointed and pessimistic.

 

[(1UP)]

No, our offstage game sucks now because we can't airdodge after 3rd boost to get back anymore, dair doesn't stall as much, there's now a visual indicator for our last boost, stuff, things, etc. /s

Things like those are small prices to be paid compared to our ability to go out and get early gimps on characters that now have a much harder time preventing us from doing so

power laser seems mostly the same to me in terms of knockback but I'd like some clarification too

 

[DrinkingFood]

But nair aint killing till late unless they are floaty and if bair followups become the bread and butter everyone gonna be DIing the followup correctly. Honestly I can only have fun playing R.O.B anymore against like spacies and a few other matchups, I don't really have an excuse to bring him out in a serious setting against most characters. It's just a shame because I love him and I'm *** at learning someone new.

Dthrow->boost nair kills link at 110 on FD iirc. He's heavy and a semifast faller. In fact in my testing awhile back it almost always killed earlier than upair will off the sides (depending on stage position). The issue with it is that it's really hard to hit- nair is slow, and hits in front last, so if they DI forward it takes a long time to reach them with the hitbox. Making the window awkward and susceptible to error due to hugely variable timing depending on character and percent.

I wish we had gained the ability to do grounded turn-around up-bs that retain momentum in the original direction from, say, a dash.

 

[Dandizzle]

Is that if they jump up or when they still are in hitstun?

 

[DrinkingFood]

It's a true combo on most non-floaties, usually at kill percent. Hard to pull off and crazy hard if they DI forward. I'll go test in debug mode in a few minutes if it's a true combo with DI forward. I'll check characters like Roy, Link, Sheik, random floaties maybe a fast faller and a random fatty, I'll check kill percents with DI and about for how long percent-wise the combo works.

 

[Dandizzle]

I didn't really care about the airdodge change that much until I fought good Marth players. Really made them harder to fight. I'll maybe become a ****ty Link or Olimar for coverage and fun times. I like Peach too but I'm ass with her.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Also bair follow-up isn't phased by DI. Boost bair has almost the exact strength of fsmash, but sends at a lower angle. It hits at 35°, which is 5° higher thank sheiks slap (IIRC) and 10° lower than most kill moves (including fsmash). Meaning no matter what they get sent offstage at a good angle.

 

[Dandizzle]

I was talking about avoiding the bair from Dthrow, landing bair is $$$ but can be tricky. Dthrow never fails to be great but really blows that I gotta get a grab to get most things going.

 

[batistabus]

Gonna have to hit the lab with this fella. Tried him in a tourney today and I wasn't nearly as effective as in the previous build.

But...it feels right.

 

[Jolteon]

No, our offstage game sucks now because we can't airdodge after 3rd boost to get back anymore, dair doesn't stall as much, there's now a visual indicator for our last boost, stuff, things, etc. /s

I hoped for a shield size increase and expected a recovery nerf. Everything else was kind of random (more endlag on grounded sideb, OK...?), but didn't seem to change ROB's overall style. I need to actually grind games with ROB to get a holistic impression of how he is in 3.5 though.

Also, I can't discern what "knockback compensated" actually means in reference to the super laser. I feel like it means the knockback was reduced, but compensate is usually used in a positive manner. Could somebody confirm what it means please? X.X

KB in this game is calculated by using damage and knockback growth. "KB compensation" refers to lowering the KBG by an appropriate value that leaves the overall KB of the move being the same (or very similar), while changing the damage output. In layman's terms, his laser has the same KB as before, but does more damage.

 

[DrinkingFood]

@ Jolteon can you tell somebody PMDT to do an indepth explanation of the landing collision and airdodge changes (or maybe yourself if you have all the info)? Something about them is ****ing with my perfect wavelands out of Robodash and it's really bothering me that I don't know why, or in what circumstances I can get the perfect wavelands from robodash. Like I run offstage, boost back on immediately, and try to airdodge sideways to waveland back off. This worked 100% in 3.02 no issues whatsoever. You could even airdodge upwards, but being so close the ground you still got the airdodge landing (in place). Now it seems in 3.5 it's really inconsistent. Sometimes I get the perfect waveland, sometimes I get a stupid sideways airdodge, and I don't know what I'm doing wrong or why it was changed to make it easy to do wrong in the first place.

 

[Dandizzle]

Only thing that feels right to me so far are those crisp wavelands but that's an engine change anyway. And yea the robo booster perfect waveland thing isn't in your head from what I've experienced.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Wtf it's like perfect wavelands don't even work anymore for frames 20-24 of booster
@JCaesar @Magus @MonkUnit @ standardtoaster what is the meaning of this

 

[Dandizzle]

Dude, are you implying people work on this character?

 

[standardtoaster]

You can turn on SCD points (Y+dpad left) in debug mode to see when you can land. That should help you with getting the spacing down for perfect wavelands out of it

 

[Rubba Prime]

After messing with ROB all day the only issue I'm having is descending from the top of the screen. ROBs maneuverability is still good enough off stage where I can change up how I get back, but descending with no dashes/jumps/air-dodging can be really tricky.

 

[DrinkingFood]

You can turn on SCD points (Y+dpad left) in debug mode to see when you can land. That should help you with getting the spacing down for perfect wavelands out of it

They are perfect wavelands. There is no spacing. It's perfectly horizontal airdodges out of aerial side-b close to the ground, you don't have to angle it. It gives you the full horizontal momentum of the airdodge because none of it is expended downward. Since 2.0 this has worked, so long as you were able to get the boost close to the ground. Now it only works like half the time. What gives? How does this qualify as cheese or strange design that needed to be changed when the only difference is that it is now inconsistent? It wasn't that great but it had a niche for edgeplay and platform maneuvering.

I just and checked it out in debug mode. His stage collision doesn't move down far enough when he airdodges to collide with the stage, even if he is touching it, for frames 20-24 of his booster (20 being the earliest he can cancel with an airdodge). Afterwards it's not an issue (frames 25-29 or 30, after that he begins a soft landing). Debug mode isn't even making it clear why this is the case.

So why was this changed and why was it not in the changelog? Why is JCz still handling ROB changes when he appears to be so disconnected from other ROB players and the scene as a whole?

 

[SpiderMad]

@ Jolteon can you tell somebody PMDT to do an indepth explanation of the landing collision and airdodge changes (or maybe yourself if you have all the info)? Something about them is ****ing with my perfect wavelands out of Robodash and it's really bothering me that I don't know why, or in what circumstances I can get the perfect wavelands from robodash. Like I run offstage, boost back on immediately, and try to airdodge sideways to waveland back off. This worked 100% in 3.02 no issues whatsoever. You could even airdodge upwards, but being so close the ground you still got the airdodge landing (in place). Now it seems in 3.5 it's really inconsistent. Sometimes I get the perfect waveland, sometimes I get a stupid sideways airdodge, and I don't know what I'm doing wrong or why it was changed to make it easy to do wrong in the first place.

Your specific scenario aside, I generally get more sideways airdodges instead of close to perfect wavedashes: and await a rundown on the whole air dodge change mechanic too. Do you only have this problem with your specific scenario?