I'm seconding Ivysaur, and only Ivysaur.

[deepseadiva]

Yep, just him.

I'm inspired to take him up due to what I believe is unwarranted negativity. Not only is he going to be perpetually compared to Squirtle and Charizard, but I also suspect he's suffering from Olimar Syndrome. Which is otherwise known as, "OMG, he can't recover, he's terrible."

Ivysaur is most likely nowhere near as good as Olimar, but I see potential - potential being constantly overshadowed by the other two Pokemon.

So, let's cut them completly out of the equation.

I will second Ivysaur, and Ivysaur alone. All the Fatigue, all the vinewhip, all the weaknesses, with no Squirtle or Charizard to fall back on. I'll start as Ivysaur, and on any respawn, quickly mash down-b twice. (I'll ask my opponent if they wouldn't mind waiting - similar to what DKs do against Dedede players. It might also soon be a specific rule in Colorado's low-tier tournament ruleset. )

Seeing as I'm just starting, I have questions. I've read the most of the stickies, and Ivysaur's part in the guide, but I feel there's more to dig through. What are Ivysaur's match-ups? General basics, bread-and-butter moves and techniques? ATs?

I also have more vague questions. Hypothetically reaching Ivysaur technical perfection, how far could I possibly go? Similar to the Zelda/Shiek situation, were would this type of playstyle fit on the tier list? Better or worse than Ganondorf?

Also, mine is a "him."

Look at his face. That is a man face.

And he's about to ravage and plunder your butthole at a low tier tournament near you.

 

[T-block]

Haha...I like it. Good luck to you x.x

The big idea behind Ivysaur is to keep them at midrange. He's got good range on most of his moves, so it makes sense that this is where you'd want your opponent to be. It's not easy though - a large part of why he's so bad is his air speed (2nd worst in the game or something) doesn't let him do that very effectively against most characters. N-air and to some extent b-air are really the only moves that I would call bread-and-butter. The rest of the moves you'll have to learn when to use just by playing...

The biggest mistake people make when playing Ivysaur is to overestimate his b-air I think. If you're going to use it on a grounded opponent, you'd better be spacing it to the max. Also, simple short hop b-airs have a considerable amount of landing lag, so don't use them if there's any chance of your opponent shielding. It's better to either land during the b-air so you have less lag, or full-hop it if you want that aerial wall. Full hop double b-airs form a good wall if your opponent is in the air, and the second b-air will autocancel when you land.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Talk to me.

 

[T-block]

^and post the conversation when you're done <_<

 

[o-Serin-o]

Glhf...


Ivysaur does have potential, but not THAT much potential x.x

Gl to you though.

 

[Dekar173]

One can only attain technical perfection with Ivy when they use "down B"

 

[Retro Gaming]

Ivysaur's also pretty bad at actually killing people, so you need to learn to force people to fall for Uair, Usmash, and Fsmash consistently.

However, I think Ivysaur has one very reliable kill move and that's dash attack. There are two ways you want to do this: either you're dashing, start to come to a stop, then execute a late dash attack (You almost come to a neutral standing position before dashing) or you can do my new favorite which is to fox trot and dash attack with the C-stick, which makes you dash attack straight out of a standing position. I actually like to do this when I know someone is going to move in after a Bair.

 

[Charizard92]

Also Memo, Ivysaur's main Achilles heel is his (Yes, i consider Ivysaur a male too, 87.5% of Ivysaurs are male) lack of reliable methods of accumulating damage. Bullet seed is one, but that's about it. When you discover a way for Ivysaur to quickly rack up enough damage outside is B move, Ivysaur will be considered good. However, due to the fact that Ivysaur's moveset consists of weak moves and kill moves (in contrast to Squirtle, who is almost all damage racking, and Charizard, who is a combination of the two), taht is kinda unlikely.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

However, I think Ivysaur has one very reliable kill move and that's dash attack.

It's definitely the KO move of choice on Falco. If he gets too comfortable firing lasers, you can clip him as he comes down and guarantee a KO at 130-ish%.

 

[demonictoonlink]

God Meno is cool...

Guys, this wasn't a joke...At my house yesterday, even with people not letting him change, he went all Ivy when going PT.

BTW Zero switch>Ivy>Opponent grabbing edge is a true combo...

Why, Meno, why?!?! You play Peach and can beat my Tink and occasionally beat my MK with her...you've proved enough for yourself as a smasher. Now second MK >:0

 

[Zigsta]

Seeing as I'm just starting, I have questions. I've read the most of the stickies, and Ivysaur's part in the guide, but I feel there's more to dig through.

I wish Ivysaur knew Dig.

 

[Steeler]

oh meno...

 

[Kith]

Good luck senior. I agree that Ivysaur does have potential, so let us know what you find on your journey lol

 

[demonictoonlink]

No...he doesn't. Remember the gimps?
I gimped you with Ganon's jab in the ffa...GANON'S....JAB...

 

[Chuckles_KSU]

Best of luck, Meno! I've thought about doing something similar myself, as all the Ivy hate going around everywhere is finally starting to Frazzle me... :/

Ah well. Since I mained her (Pretty sure I had a female Venesaur on FireRed.), I'll give you a little bit of what I at least hope is useful advice.

Learn to hit with Bullet seed. I mean, consistantly. I mean, two or three times inna row. I've won my fair share of matches because of this. Piss off your opponent, they play all the worse for it, and Bullet Seed is as good as any CG for that.

Don't overestimate B-Air. I was a noob once, and I'm sure every PT can attest, once you find a decent move like B-Air, you tend to spam it, even when it's totally the wrong time. It's used for stuffing arials. Outranges all but a small handful. Use it on a grounded opponent, they'll just move in for the kill.

Pick a different Character to use against Falco. CG to Spike = dead Ivysaur. :/

Learn to hit with U-Smash. I'll usually toss it out at the beginning of the match, get them used to spotdodging into the ground. Then, later into the match, Punish their spotdodge and landing lag with a Stun Spore to the face. It's just to powerful not to use.

D-Tilt and F-Tilt are awesome, so far as Ivysaur goes. F-Tilt for shield poking and D-Tilt to GTFO.

Grabs are rarely worth it. Sometimes, I'll try for one OoS, but once you've grabbed em, theres not much good you can do from there. U-throw kills at pretty high percents, depending on the ceiling. Her grab range is also alot shorter than you might think. Pivot Grab is alright, I hear, but I've not bothered to apply it to my game. Try it, and see how it does.

I mentioned Bullet Seed, right? Just checking. Invincibility frames on startup. XD

Let's see, what else is there... F-Air is all right, range is pretty deceptive, but in a good way this time. Vine Whip can be used as a kill move inna pinch. No one ever seems to see it comeing, so as long as you're paying attention it's not too difficult to find them flying about sweetspot range.

As far as recovery goes... Unless they're just begging for it (ie High percents, Invincibility frames are gone.), don't stagespike an edgehogger. If you didn't manage to get them off the edge with a Razorleaf, F-Air, or whatever else, just wait. About half the time they'll roll up early and let you whip the edge. The range on Ivy's tether is the best in the game. Abuse it well.

Anyway... That's enough from me. It's two in the morning and I'm half asleep..

Good luck out there. Let us know if you find anything interesting.

 

[Kith]

No...he doesn't. Remember the gimps?
I gimped you with Ganon's jab in the ffa...GANON'S....JAB...

Umm..I don't remember this....who are you? lol
Also, when I play as Ivysaur, I try to bait my opponent's shield as much as possible. Ivysaur has really great shield poking moves (N-air, F-tilt), so you want to have your opponent shielding as much as possible. When you see his shield low, go on the attack. Also, master the n-air spike. Every now and then it can get you a kill, but I love it because of N-air to N-air spike, to bullet seed. :-D

 

[T-block]

This "Ivy hate" isn't unjustified -_- It's not even "hate", so to speak. I actually love Ivysaur and I find him a lot of fun to play in a few matchups, but you're not doing yourself any favours by thinking Ivysaur is better than he actually is. With the way Pokemon Trainer is, you'll actually be a better player if you're realistic about your pokemon's capabilities.

I actually found that as I became more experienced with Ivysaur, I used Bullet Seed less in most matchups. If your opponent is good at SDI and isn't playing an overly obese character, the punishment you could take from a missed Bullet Seed usually isn't worth the reward. When it comes to Bullet Seed, what you should be thinking about is when you can use it be guaranteed to connect with it. Against people without much matchup experience, you'll see that it happens quite a lot. If your opponent is wary of it and playing to avoid it, it's probably too risky to be worth it.

Grabs are good =\ It's not the best grab (13 frames iirc), but it is disjointed and has good range (just larger than D3's grab range). U-throw is always a good choice of throw as it puts them above Ivysaur. As for landing grabs, it isn't all that hard. Once your opponent is above you, they have to worry about u-tilt, u-air, u-smash. If they air dodge it, it's very possible you'd be able to regrab and toss them back up - mix up your chase options. Also, pivot grabs for Ivysaur are absolute ****.

Ivysaur probably survives Falco's CG Spike the easiest. Just tether the edge after the spike.

As for recovery, anyone with any matchup experience will know that as soon as you see Ivysaur use Vine Whip, you can press up/A/roll to get off the edge, avoid getting stagespiked, and still prevent Ivy from tethering. You might be able to psyche someone out once or twice with d-air stall, but that's iffy. If you're getting edgehogged, you're going to die against an experienced opponent unless he messes up.

 

[Albert.]

Talk to me.

Did you switch to Mario?!?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Did you switch to Mario?!?

No, but I'm messing around with some Mario now. It's fun.

 

[Albert.]

No, but I'm messing around with some Mario now. It's fun.

Fluud fluud fluud bair bair bair bair bair all day

 

[Vermy]

Meno, you're a champion. Godspeed.

 

[Chuckles_KSU]

I actually found that as I became more experienced with Ivysaur, I used Bullet Seed less in most matchups. If your opponent is good at SDI and isn't playing an overly obese character, the punishment you could take from a missed Bullet Seed usually isn't worth the reward.

*******

Ivysaur probably survives Falco's CG Spike the easiest. Just tether the edge after the spike.

I land Bullet Seed pretty close to everytime I pull it out. Light Characters are safe from it, but midweight and above get trapped for 20% or more. I think I should have been a little less "Use Bulletseed GO!". That was the sleep talking. XD It's not something you can just throw out there, but once you learn to hit with it, it's Ivysaur's best punisher. Times I use it are usually after a spotdodge if they just used a moderately laggy attack (That's also when I think thier least likely to just DI over.), or as a finisher to N-Air, though I raraly use the N-Air method.

I don't play Falco a whole lot, but the two times I've risked Ivy out there, she gets Chaingrabbed, Spiked, and edgeguarded all in one. Maybe just my bad luck or porr reflexes. It's honesly been awhile since Ive really worked at this matchup.

As far as Ivy hate goes, I'm mostly referring to people outside of PT mains. I know that she's probably not as great as the other two, but there are a good handful of matchups where I and fellow PT's will pull her out instead of one of the others... I'm mostly referring to non PT mains though, when I talk about Ivy hate. I'm getting pretty sick of being told how to use my character by outsiders, and to "Just use Squirtle." Charizard's getting a bit of hate too. :/

 

[Zigsta]

I land Bullet Seed pretty close to everytime I pull it out. Light Characters are safe from it, but midweight and above get trapped for 20% or more.

You must not play against people who know how to SDI it then.

 

[Chuckles_KSU]

Initial hit does 4%, first seed does 4%, then 2% for awhile.
Only takes seven hits to get 20%. Provided they didn't fly over you or almost out of it on the first hit, which doesn't happen that often when used as a punish, seven hits is not that difficult to manage on a middlewight, and of course, heavyweights take a bit more. And even if they don't take 20%, so long as you hit, you're not likely to get punished.

I'll say it's at the very least 15% if they don't fly over you.

 

[Steeler]

why not just punish with a nair or grab -> pummel -> throw? that's like 13% and way safer.

 

[Magik0722]

Well thank you for telling us

 

[Chuckles_KSU]

Because the first hit on Bulletseed comes out on Frame 4 and Ivy has invincibility frames until then if something goes a little bit sour. I mix N-Air into things pretty often, but like I said before, I'm a little distrustful of Ivy's grabs.

 

[Steeler]

you should be distrustful of ivy's everything

 

[T-block]

I don't understand how you can be distrustful of Ivy's grab of all things. Ivy doesn't have that many options to begin with... it's silly to cut out grabs from your game.

 

[Dre89]

I thought bullet seed was meant to be pretty bad at high levels of play because people could SDI the 'pop up' and then get a free smash.

Also, it seems kinda strange to be distrustful of Ivy's grabs and not bulletseed, which is more situational and has more commitment, but that's just my opinion I guess.

 

[T-block]

It's actually just regular DI, not SDI that can get the first hit to send you away from the stream. SDI is what gets you out of the stream once you are caught in it. No one in my region is able to consistently get that DI in, but I would think someone with a lot of matchup experience would be able to see when he's about to be Bullet Seed'd and hold the proper direction. Most of the time when people get that DI on me, it's because they were about to use a forward tilt or something and were holding forward anyways.

 

[Zigsta]

I thought bullet seed was meant to be pretty bad at high levels of play because people could SDI the 'pop up' and then get a free smash.

It is. Bullet Seed's only good if you know the person you're fighting can't SDI.

 

[Chuckles_KSU]

My brother has more PT matchup experience than anyone should ever have to suffer though, and land bulletseed on him is not a problem. He mains Yoshi, so I have a good bit of character weight going for me, but he still takes 30% or more. With SDI. Sometimes he just holds the C-Stick, sometimes he pummels it, and nothing seems to net him less than a solid punishment for a wiffed grab. Or Smash. Or B-Air.

He also rarely DI's over the first hit, even though he knows he should, just because of when I catch him. Especially if you Spotdodge a smash attack, thier movement stick is usually set to neutral by the time you attack, and those four or five frames from getting hit from the pop-up to the seeds coming out are usually not enough for somone to react.

 

[Zigsta]

He's not that good at SDIing then. Trust me, I play against PhantomX every week, and he punishes me almost every time I attempt a Bullet Seed. If he can SDI easily out of with Ganondorf, that just goes to show you how terrible Bullet Seed is against someone who knows how to SDI.

 

[Timothy2035]

I don't understand why there would be any real hate or dislike for Ivysaur. If you are having problems with Ivy, train harder.

Pants did those videos and he was an Ivy specialists of sorts. I learned a lot from his videos. I worked on my Ivy game and improved him (mine is a He ). I will take my Ivy up against any of the foes who some think it has a big disadvantage against.

If you have problems with chain grabbers, when they are trying to do the grabs, don't let up on trying to do a short hop while being grabbed. Short hop to start bulletseed. Chances are you can try and break the chain grab and their grabbing you gets them damaged some. They will have to stop to either see about DIing out of it, or they are caught up in it.

I have gotten out of chain hitters and grabbers before with this move tactic. It hasn't been 100% of the time, but I know I fight to my best ability to try and escape it. I have had some reasonable success.

To me, all the Pokemon have disadvantages. Squirtle is praised so, and he is a good character, but he doesn't have any aerial multi-hitter moves. The humanoid type cast can hit you many times or hit you powerfully in the air. You are using neutral and forward air so much you forget that the moves decrease in power (when you are playing Squirtle). Ivy does have a decent air move in neutral air that you can direct its movement. Plus you can go into backair after the neutral air. Charizard has power, but he is a target nonetheless, and those that use quick characters will make sure you feel the brunt of their attack if they can keep you off your game. To me, all Pokes have good fortune and all have setbacks. Just work the game as best you can.

To show what I am talking about in breaking up chain hits, I have a video I did recently. Its not combo savvy, but you will see at 1:16 thur 1:27 what I am talking about on the bulletseed break tactic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q96Rm9XepY4

I'm an Ivysaur Supporter and I'm Proud.

 

[Bomber7]

All I have to say is you better be good at spacing and Nair, dont forget to Nair. That is all.

 

[Dre89]

I don't understand why there would be any real hate or dislike for Ivysaur. If you are having problems with Ivy, train harder.

Pants did those videos and he was an Ivy specialists of sorts. I learned a lot from his videos. I worked on my Ivy game and improved him (mine is a He ). I will take my Ivy up against any of the foes who some think it has a big disadvantage against.

If you have problems with chain grabbers, when they are trying to do the grabs, don't let up on trying to do a short hop while being grabbed. Short hop to start bulletseed. Chances are you can try and break the chain grab and their grabbing you gets them damaged some. They will have to stop to either see about DIing out of it, or they are caught up in it.

I have gotten out of chain hitters and grabbers before with this move tactic. It hasn't been 100% of the time, but I know I fight to my best ability to try and escape it. I have had some reasonable success.

To me, all the Pokemon have disadvantages. Squirtle is praised so, and he is a good character, but he doesn't have any aerial multi-hitter moves. The humanoid type cast can hit you many times or hit you powerfully in the air. You are using neutral and forward air so much you forget that the moves decrease in power (when you are playing Squirtle). Ivy does have a decent air move in neutral air that you can direct its movement. Plus you can go into backair after the neutral air. Charizard has power, but he is a target nonetheless, and those that use quick characters will make sure you feel the brunt of their attack if they can keep you off your game. To me, all Pokes have good fortune and all have setbacks. Just work the game as best you can.

To show what I am talking about in breaking up chain hits, I have a video I did recently. Its not combo savvy, but you will see at 1:16 thur 1:27 what I am talking about on the bulletseed break tactic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q96Rm9XepY4

I'm an Ivysaur Supporter and I'm Proud.

Firstly, most people like Ivy, they just know he's not good. Yes all three pokemon have weaknesses, but Ivy has more weaknesses, and his weaknesses can be more costly.With regards to people saying he's not good, this is coming from the top PT mains, the people who play with him most, so it's likely they know what they're talking about.

By the way, Squirtle's dair is a multi-hit aerial.

Also with regards to Pants' vids, I'm sure he was a good player in his day, but those vids are about ten months old, and it's pretty clear they won't the best opponents, alot of them we're doing thigns like walking into usmashes and getting hit frequently by uair and fair, which doesn't happen to good players.

Unfortunately, Ivysaur has alot more problems than just recovery and chaingrabs.

 

[Nitrix]

I am by no means an Ivy expert, but try playing around with his Pivot Grab. It is pretty fast if I remember correctly.

 

[Timothy2035]

Firstly, most people like Ivy, they just know he's not good. Yes all three pokemon have weaknesses, but Ivy has more weaknesses, and his weaknesses can be more costly.With regards to people saying he's not good, this is coming from the top PT mains, the people who play with him most, so it's likely they know what they're talking about.

By the way, Squirtle's dair is a multi-hit aerial.

Also with regards to Pants' vids, I'm sure he was a good player in his day, but those vids are about ten months old, and it's pretty clear they won't the best opponents, alot of them we're doing thigns like walking into usmashes and getting hit frequently by uair and fair, which doesn't happen to good players.

Unfortunately, Ivysaur has alot more problems than just recovery and chaingrabs.

I forgot about the Squirtle down air being a multi-hitter. I was in such a passion to say something on Ivy's behalf.

Though Pants fought some tough characters. His passion for Ivy helped many of us who needed some ideas. I always liked Ivy, just needed to know how to get past some of those recovery issues. With Ivy, I learned defense more and it helped my other Pokemon as well. Plus even some of the best players make small mistakes. No one is exacto mondo so awesome they don't make mistakes. Brawl, like any fighter is about trying to land the next hit or combo, and in doing so, you are going to get adventurous. Some may cost you a little bit, and some will be spot on good logic. I love Pokemon Trainer with a passion as my number 1 Smash Brawl character, and I would still stick by Ivy as well as the other 2. They are a team, and teamwork is about coming together for the win.

 

[Dre89]

There's nothing wrong with using Ivysaur frequently, what you just have to accept though is that if you are going to use him as much or even more than Squirtle and Charizard in most MUs, you're essentially maining him because you enjoy it, rather than using Trainer to his maximum compettive potential.

With regards to good players making mistakes, yes that's true, but the point is 9 times out of 10 it's just better to have Squirtle or Charizard out instead, and because of the 2 pokemon battery strategy, often (not always)using Ivysaur is not required, because you don't need a third pokemon, and it'd be better to just stick with the two pokemon that do the best (if Charizard and Squirtle do the best in that MU).