I'm seconding Ivysaur, and only Ivysaur.

[Cia]

All I do is Shield > Bullet seed with Ivysaur. It's pretty much all you need as terrible as that sounds.

Bair is good for spacing.

My favorite killers are Uair, Dash attack, Fsmash, and Uthrow.

have fun with ivy. As a Peach main, you'll miss being able to recover.

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

Meno update with MANvids.

 

[demonictoonlink]

LOL...I have ONE replay of his Ivy...in a FFA...

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

lets see it.

 

[deepseadiva]

lets see it.

lol

It wouldn't be more than some bair spam and me dying immediatly after getting hit off the stage once.

But thanks everyone! I'm glad you aren't all laughing at me - I'll be sure to take all your advice into consideration, and update on any snags I hit, and if I find anything of note.

SORE SORE SORE

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

Who do you counterpick Ivysaur against?

 

[deepseadiva]

Meta Knight.

 

[Cia]

LMAO

Ivysaur does well against the fatties.

 

[Steeler]

LMAO

Ivysaur does well against the fatties.

you mean

ivysaur does best against the fatties.

 

[Dre89]

you mean

ivysaur does best against the fatties.

Those exact words immediately came into my head when I first read Vanz's post.

Great minds think alike.

 

[Laos Oman]

Those exact words immediately came into my head when I first read Vanz's post.

Great Strange minds think alike.

By the way, Ivysaur's my favourite of the three Pokémon too. Not the best, I know, but still my favourite since Pokémon Trainer was announced.

 

[Moozle]

I didn't read every post so I don't know if you brought this up already, buuuuuuut

are you going to b-stick Ivy like you do peach? I also second ivy, but I play a bit of the other two. we are twins

 

[deepseadiva]

I'm not totally sure actually. I'm not seeing any major advantages or disadvantages to either control scheme, but for now, I guess I'll stick to my b-stick for easy Razor Leaf spam.

 

[T-block]

The only advantage to b-sticking I can think of would be not using your double jump when tethering the edge... wavebounced razor leaves aren't that great imo

I'd stick with c-stick...makes retreating f-airs easier for one thing. Whatever makes you happy though >_>

 

[Steeler]

t-block you can just turn off tap jump to not waste double jumps when you tether

 

[Phiddlesticks]

or you can just be a non-noobie and learn how to upb with tap jump on without using a jump

unlike rookie steeler

 

[Steeler]

actually i sustained a thumb injury a few years ago and i have a lot of trouble with sensitive movements
lmao just kidding
jerk

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

or you can just be a non-noobie and learn how to upb with tap jump on without using a jump

unlike rookie steeler

to much effort
im trying to do that **** without getting hurt
and with just a little spurt
of energy
i say **** using no tap jump to up B

 

[ぱみゅ]

y'know, Meno? This reminds me on my Zelda.

Everyone says that Zelda is terrible (because she is lol), but I feel soft playing as her.
So, I sticked on her that much that I actually main her.

Spoiler

Because I forgot how to play Peach... that was sad...

I want to stick Ivy a little, too, but just to improve as Pokemon Trainer.
I really want to master him, not one of his minions =P

Anyways, we (Ivy and Zelda) are the weakest part of the team, and I wish you luck!

 

[Dekar173]

You're all a bunch of fat girls for arguing over control schemes.

Meno, please play Ivysaur against me some time in tourney so I can have a safe setup for single naner locking you ;P

 

[Timothy2035]

There's nothing wrong with using Ivysaur frequently, what you just have to accept though is that if you are going to use him as much or even more than Squirtle and Charizard in most MUs, you're essentially maining him because you enjoy it, rather than using Trainer to his maximum compettive potential.

With regards to good players making mistakes, yes that's true, but the point is 9 times out of 10 it's just better to have Squirtle or Charizard out instead, and because of the 2 pokemon battery strategy, often (not always)using Ivysaur is not required, because you don't need a third pokemon, and it'd be better to just stick with the two pokemon that do the best (if Charizard and Squirtle do the best in that MU).

but saying that you should limit Ivy is like saying don't use the full team. It was said way back that people shouldn't use Squirtle against Marth, but Pokemon Master IRL was continuing to pull him out in his Marth match ups to try and better the odds. It was his own comment (after being questioned by some of the PT elite on the boards) that he was going to put his Squirtle out there to see what he could do to better the situation.

To me, any match that comes up, I will use all my Pokemon. Yes I enjoy Ivy, and actually my developing of Ivysaur improved my entire team. The other two were not as in need of development like Ivy was. I struggled in some matches against those who liked to try and gimp me, spam me to force me off the edge to have a messed up recovery and just keep pressure on. I could try and win most matches with just Charzy (my Charizard's name ) and Squirt, but then Ivy goes lacking. If Ivy doesn't keep up to speed with the others, then when I need him, he seems less fluid play-wise.

I know all of us Trainers have odd times struggling to keep the Pokemon at even level, and its a job surely, though we shouldn't neglect any of our Pokemon characters. Its a team thing, so all for 1, and 1 for all. (okay fanboy moment over).

 

[T-block]

kay can we stop being so ridiculously idealistic and look at reality again

k thanks

 

[Timothy2035]

kay can we stop being so ridiculously idealistic and look at reality again

k thanks

a lot of folks said Taj was the best one with Mewtwo in Melee, and that Mew2 was really a bad character. Yet he showed a lot of worth for Mew2.

Pants showed us the way of Ivysaur, we just have to hone our skills better. Sure Ivy may not be the best in every match up, but Ivy isn't worthless. That is my main point, and that I will keep exploring what I can do to improve Ivy's odds as far as my Team is concerned.

 

[T-block]

lol nobody is saying ivysaur is useless... i actually advocate using ivysaur is more matchups than most people would. ivysaur over squirtle against ganondorf imo, for example.

but there's a line between realizing ivysaur's worth and blindly supporting him. i mean, it sounds great when you say you use all of your pokemon equally, but realistically you're only hurting yourself if you're just using ivysaur just because you don't want to neglect him.

i'll put it this way. if you're tackling the 7th gym on cinnabar, would you use ivysaur? know your pokemon's place - it's a better quality to have as a trainer than this "use all your pokemon equally" thing

 

[Timothy2035]

lol nobody is saying ivysaur is useless... i actually advocate using ivysaur is more matchups than most people would. ivysaur over squirtle against ganondorf imo, for example.

but there's a line between realizing ivysaur's worth and blindly supporting him. i mean, it sounds great when you say you use all of your pokemon equally, but realistically you're only hurting yourself if you're just using ivysaur just because you don't want to neglect him.

i'll put it this way. if you're tackling the 7th gym on cinnabar, would you use ivysaur? know your pokemon's place - it's a better quality to have as a trainer than this "use all your pokemon equally" thing

*nods* Understood.

 

[Steeler]

taj was the best with mewtwo yet he very rarely used him in important tourney matches

 

[6Mizu]

Sort of like how Ally is a great Cpt Falcon, but e never uses him in important tourneys?

Btw, If I were to play Pokemon Trainer.....I would only play either Sqiurtle or Ivysaur. There the most fun to play. Probably, Ivysaur casue he can play defensive really well.....and that's what I luv to do.

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

Taj did **** in tournament.


Lets leave all referencing to Ivys worth directly related to tournament preformances.

Dont theorycraft about Ivysaur.
The best have tried AD Typh Magik Reflex and myself.

And the general belief is that Ivy is a very limited character.

 

[Dre89]

but saying that you should limit Ivy is like saying don't use the full team. It was said way back that people shouldn't use Squirtle against Marth, but Pokemon Master IRL was continuing to pull him out in his Marth match ups to try and better the odds. It was his own comment (after being questioned by some of the PT elite on the boards) that he was going to put his Squirtle out there to see what he could do to better the situation.

To me, any match that comes up, I will use all my Pokemon. Yes I enjoy Ivy, and actually my developing of Ivysaur improved my entire team. The other two were not as in need of development like Ivy was. I struggled in some matches against those who liked to try and gimp me, spam me to force me off the edge to have a messed up recovery and just keep pressure on. I could try and win most matches with just Charzy (my Charizard's name ) and Squirt, but then Ivy goes lacking. If Ivy doesn't keep up to speed with the others, then when I need him, he seems less fluid play-wise.

I know all of us Trainers have odd times struggling to keep the Pokemon at even level, and its a job surely, though we shouldn't neglect any of our Pokemon characters. Its a team thing, so all for 1, and 1 for all. (okay fanboy moment over).

There's no point using a third option when you only need to use two, and they do better than the third. It seems that alot of the time (not all), Ivysaur is just not needed, because it's usually just better to have Squirtle or Charizard out instead.

If you had MK, Snake, and Zelda in pokeballs, you wouldn't use Zelda except for rare occassions, at least not often for tactical purposes anyway.

 

[Timothy2035]

Taj did **** in tournament.


Lets leave all referencing to Ivys worth directly related to tournament preformances.

Dont theorycraft about Ivysaur.
The best have tried AD Typh Magik Reflex and myself.

And the general belief is that Ivy is a very limited character.

There's no point using a third option when you only need to use two, and they do better than the third. It seems that alot of the time (not all), Ivysaur is just not needed, because it's usually just better to have Squirtle or Charizard out instead.

If you had MK, Snake, and Zelda in pokeballs, you wouldn't use Zelda except for rare occassions, at least not often for tactical purposes anyway.

not fighting you guys and your points, but I just want to pose a question...

What if it was Pants in a tourney? He has so far (IMO) been the most impressive Ivysaur user that I have ever seen in a video so far. There are some good Ivys out there (on this board even), but Pants' Ivy seemed rather magical. So do you think that maybe it takes a certain approach or "thinking" on pushing Ivysaur to not be "very limited"?

To me since I have been a member on the board, (and I do recognize I went away for a while) that a lot of people didn't want to play Ivy or like Ivy due to the vine tether recovery and getting gimped often. Some people did speak out about Ivy in a positive way, but Ivy always trailed. Then Pants showed some good techniques in videos and I started to see some other good Ivys after that.


Well since this is an Ivysaur thread, wouldn't it have been nice if Sakurai maybe didn't have Final Smash Balls in the game. What could have happened for Ivy was that it would get "solar beam" as a normal attack, and could use the beam much like R.O.B. and Samus put together. Ivy gets a "charging" sound effect like Samus with the little particles forming at the flower bulb, and then at opportunistic moments, fires it like R.O.B.'s laser. That certainly would have increased Ivy's standing in Brawl.

 

[Chuckles_KSU]

Timothy, you have to be the most peaceful debater I've ever seen.

"Not fighting you guys and your points, but I just want to pose a question..." Epic.

While I do believe that Ivysaur deserves more credit than even some fellow PT's will give her, most if not all of the folks here are not that farr off base. Her flaws are... Well, her flaws, and theres no working around them. Do I think theres more potential for Ivysaur? Yes I do. Do I think she will overcome obvious flaws (Recovery, mobility, ect.)? Not really.

I think the point most folks on this board are trying to get at is that of the three, Ivy fares the worst, generally speaking. With the ability to run a two Pokemon battery with relativ safety, there's not much reason to use Ivysaur if she has the worst matchup... Interesting not though... Of the Completed PT matchups (It's horribly outdated, I know, but bear with me.), I think seventeen have Ivy either best or tied for the worst Pokemon in the matchup, meaning she has alot of chance to shine, as it is. Just, fewer than the other two...

I wouldn't mind Ivysaur getting some respect outside of the PT mains though. Thing that get's me steamed up is non-PT's telling me how to play my character... If I had a dime for everytime I heard "ZOMG, you should only use Squirtle!"

Makes me downright

 

[Zigsta]

Ivysaur's limited. Don't force yourself to think otherwise. Since we're talking about players who don't play anymore and therefore have no relevance to a modern debate, I'll bring up something Gimpyfish raised about maining a low tier: You must first realize your character is crap. Recognize what areas your character is complete trash in and work on playing around those weaknesses. While it sounds great on paper to say that someone plays a "magical" Ivysaur, you'd be stupid to think "magic" is going to let you beat a much better character. Like Miles said, there are some PTs with great Ivysaurs, and even then, they're going to immediately switch Ivysaur against MK.

 

[Dre89]

I'm sure Pants had a good ivysaur abck in his day, but that was awhile ago, and if you watch his combo video, he frequently hits with moves like fair uair and usmash, moves that very rarely hit good players.

At Chuckles- Actually I've found that it's usually the non-PT mains (at least the 'lower-level' ones anyway) who think Ivy is better than he really is, most PT mains are too familiar with him to be so idealistic.

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

not fighting you guys and your points, but I just want to pose a question...

What if it was Pants in a tourney? He has so far (IMO) been the most impressive Ivysaur user that I have ever seen in a video so far. There are some good Ivys out there (on this board even), but Pants' Ivy seemed rather magical. So do you think that maybe it takes a certain approach or "thinking" on pushing Ivysaur to not be "very limited"?

To me since I have been a member on the board, (and I do recognize I went away for a while) that a lot of people didn't want to play Ivy or like Ivy due to the vine tether recovery and getting gimped often. Some people did speak out about Ivy in a positive way, but Ivy always trailed. Then Pants showed some good techniques in videos and I started to see some other good Ivys after that.


Well since this is an Ivysaur thread, wouldn't it have been nice if Sakurai maybe didn't have Final Smash Balls in the game. What could have happened for Ivy was that it would get "solar beam" as a normal attack, and could use the beam much like R.O.B. and Samus put together. Ivy gets a "charging" sound effect like Samus with the little particles forming at the flower bulb, and then at opportunistic moments, fires it like R.O.B.'s laser. That certainly would have increased Ivy's standing in Brawl.

Pants never went to a brawl tournament. I know him in real life. Typh and Reflex's Ivysaurs are way way better.

Stop referencing him.


I love you Ian.

 

[Toby.]

The best have tried AD Typh Magik Reflex and myself.

You're dead to me.

 

[Kuraudo]

Makes Me Downright

D'ooohohohoho!

 

[Timothy2035]

Timothy, you have to be the most peaceful debater I've ever seen.

"Not fighting you guys and your points, but I just want to pose a question..." Epic.

well thank you, I try to be pretty cool and peaceful.

While I do believe that Ivysaur deserves more credit than even some fellow PT's will give her, most if not all of the folks here are not that farr off base. Her flaws are... Well, her flaws, and theres no working around them. Do I think theres more potential for Ivysaur? Yes I do. Do I think she will overcome obvious flaws (Recovery, mobility, ect.)? Not really.

yeah there will be those matches that have a bad match-up. Though I remember when Brawl+ came out, some people said that Ivysaur actually was better in that particular version. I don't know all the proofs to know why they based their claims. I don't have Brawl+ though.

I think the point most folks on this board are trying to get at is that of the three, Ivy fares the worst, generally speaking. With the ability to run a two Pokemon battery with relativ safety, there's not much reason to use Ivysaur if she has the worst matchup... Interesting not though... Of the Completed PT matchups (It's horribly outdated, I know, but bear with me.), I think seventeen have Ivy either best or tied for the worst Pokemon in the matchup, meaning she has alot of chance to shine, as it is. Just, fewer than the other two...

yeah I know Ivy has a lot of drawbacks against a Meta Knight player, but the other two will struggle also, though not as much. I hope no one thinks that I don't realize some of the disadvantages of Ivy, but Ivy can be a jewel in many match-ups, if the right skill level is there to weild it.

(plus I have this knack to alwas stick up for the "underdog" )

I wouldn't mind Ivysaur getting some respect outside of the PT mains though. Thing that get's me steamed up is non-PT's telling me how to play my character... If I had a dime for everytime I heard "ZOMG, you should only use Squirtle!"

yeah there are always those willing to give that particular advice. Like a Snake player was telling me to do this and that once in the air, I had to respond that I am using animals that work on different mechanics than the humaniod character he used.

Makes me downright

I just brush it off.

Ivysaur's limited. Don't force yourself to think otherwise. Since we're talking about players who don't play anymore and therefore have no relevance to a modern debate, I'll bring up something Gimpyfish raised about maining a low tier: You must first realize your character is crap. Recognize what areas your character is complete trash in and work on playing around those weaknesses. While it sounds great on paper to say that someone plays a "magical" Ivysaur, you'd be stupid to think "magic" is going to let you beat a much better character. Like Miles said, there are some PTs with great Ivysaurs, and even then, they're going to immediately switch Ivysaur against MK.

well if you are talking about me saying "Pants", well he was the best example I knew of. I haven't been here to the board in a little while posting, but when I was posting and looking at information, Pants just happened to have one of the best performing Ivysaurs. When I said "magical", it was just to note his style of play with a character so many of us were having some problems working on. He just seemed to have it down for playstyle better. It did help me a lot on developing my own Ivysaur. (here I am talking like I am straight out of Pallet Town. ) Plus some of the vids I saw, he fought some tougher match-up characters. (Pants)

I'm sure Pants had a good ivysaur abck in his day, but that was awhile ago, and if you watch his combo video, he frequently hits with moves like fair uair and usmash, moves that very rarely hit good players.

At Chuckles- Actually I've found that it's usually the non-PT mains (at least the 'lower-level' ones anyway) who think Ivy is better than he really is, most PT mains are too familiar with him to be so idealistic.

Up air and forward air hit anyone. I play still and people do get hit by it. I was mainly astounded in Pants's ability to hit with 2 consecutive neutral airs and then do an up air smash. People still get hit by moves and you don't often come across some really tough and dangerous Brawl Kings. Though there are good players out there.

The mechanics of any fighting game is that someone is going to get hit by something at some point. I think a lot of people avoid the upsmash and they suspect you are going for that, but its still possible to hit them with stuff and make Ivy look flashy. Ivy has more than upsmash. Some players try to avoid bulletseed too, but not everyone can, all the time. Squirtle regular water gun pulse burst isn't that great either, but its okay to try and cover your landing back to a stage so you don't get rushed so quickly. I guess what I am trying to say centers around things being "situational".

Pants never went to a brawl tournament. I know him in real life. Typh and Reflex's Ivysaurs are way way better.

Stop referencing him.


I love you Ian.

I know you played Pants in real life a lot and his Ivysaur was pretty competitive against your Pokemon Trainer team. I didn't know if he went to tourneys ( I hope to get to do one one day maybe), but he showed us a lot in video. I have never really seen Typh do any videos, but maybe 1 or 2, but that was it. Reflex I am not sure about right now since I have been away for a while, but if he has video can you point that out for me in some links. I would appreciate it. Though Pants did quite a bit of exposing Ivysaur potential and he is the most prominent figure I know. I know I asked you some questions about Ivy when we played a few matches when I started out with Pokemon Trainer. I thank you for your knowlege. Though I bring up pants a lot, because his playstyle showed me some things. The next person after that whom I came to see a nice Ivysaur in was Shamcas89.


I just want to say also, I mean not to stir up any friction with any of the Pokemon Trainer "elders" here , I am just stating that I believe Ivysaur has good potential and can benefit the team. I will not hesitate to use Ivy in a match, well unless its Meta Knight. Though I will use Ivy against Snake. As not all Snakes are the same in skill level, but most Meta Knights will go for that awful tornado mix-up game and that spells trouble for Ivy. Unless you want to go and tether off the side of the stage at some points to evade it. He won't follow you there and try to mix up some razor leaf spam to get back on stage.

 

[Itburns]

Thanks tim, I appreciate your support. Everything you said about me is exactly what I wanted to do. I wanted to showcase a style of play different from others and most of all inspire others to develop their own playstyle, making the community better overall.

Let me ask you all something... what was it that inspired you to play smash? I bet the higher percentage of you will say it was off a combo video.

regardless of my tournament track record, Im probably responisble of bringing in more interest to the character then most players on here. My vids have been bringing people to the boards even up till recent and I recognize the lack of "tourney viable play" but even if thats the case... what does it show about the PT community as a whole?

In the last year or so that I havent played I havent seen any new highlight video's produced from "top level" pokemon trainer's and only 2 or so threads that have been helpful to other pokemon trainers.

so dont blame ppl for refferencing me when my videos are of the few that can be refferenced

 

[Dre89]

No offence Pants but I don't understand why people keep referencing your videos.

Firstly, I doubt many people are inspired to play a game by a combo video. 14 year olds watch Ganondorf combo videos and suddenly think he's an amazing char, anyone who knows what an OOS game is knows that the Ganondorf was just a good player who uploaded one-in-20 match occurences, and/or was just exploiting the mistakes of lesser players who don't know the MU.

Secondly, correct me if I'm wrong, but your opponents didn't seem like they were exactly what you'd call high-level opposition. About 4 of them just either fell into usamshes without inputting any commands, or literally just stood there while you did it.

Half the video just seemed to be you hitting uairs on people who were inputting no commands, they weren't even trying to retreat and bait aerials, they were just moving towards you.

Like for example in the middle section, which I'm guessing is supposed is to indicate mid-level opposition, there was a Ganondorf who was trying to approach from about 2-3 Ivysaur bodies away with flame choke, and did it twice in a row, seriously even I know you never do that as the Dorfster.

I don't know what the metagame was like a year ago, but I don't think alot of the stuff in the vid would work on high-level players of the current metagame. I'm not trying to take away from your skill Pants, I know you had/have a good Ivysaur, but I think using a vid like that to gauge Ivysaur's competitive potential is misleading.

Correct me if I'm wrong on anything I've said.

 

[Toby.]

Dre is correct, but Pants is right in saying that the onus is on high level PT players to provide something better.

Everybody is right. Hooray!