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I'm ready to have my spirit crushed- Critique My Marth

ZHMT

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 5, 2008
Messages
1,851
Location
Tampa, Florida
NNID
zeeehmtee
I noticed that you dont get the most use out of your grabs. Try to use your grabs to position for dancing blades instead of fairs. Maybe do a few jabs during them, its free damage really. After a fthrow, mix it up a bit because your opponent kept air dodging. Also stay away from using your fsmash too much early on because youll need it for some solid finishes.

Forward throw into dancing blade works well and its better then a fair if you see they are dodge happy.

Also I cant say much about your actual playstyle because thats just you. Just approach with fairs and tilts, not smashes. (Even though you rarely did that)

Otherwise with a mirror match with marth its best to stay on the ground, I dont know if you play the same for each character, so yeah.
 

Steel

Where's my Jameson?
BRoomer
Joined
Mar 30, 2008
Messages
7,587
Location
Los Angeles, CA
This is my weak attempt at doing an EL analysis:

Randomly chose 2nd vid...

:35.. your opponent uses a shield breaker out of nowhere and you fail to punish. Dancing blade probably would have worked fine here, instead you went with the fair approach which isn't a smart thing to do in marth dittos unless you want an fsmash to the face.

:38.. you try the short hop shield breaker, pretty risky, luckily your opponent decided to mimic you and failed to punish. You punished him for failing to punish you, good job

:58.. he shield breakers and you simply roll and hold up your shield allowing him to recover from his mistake, you could have took off a stock here

1:00.. he down smashes and misses... you down smash and miss >.>

1:18.. he shield breakers and is facing the wrong way, you again miss a down smash and fail to take off a stock.

1:23.. got lucky here tbh, i think that could have gone either way. I would have just waited for his attack to finish and then kill him. but hey, it worked

1:58.. he edge guards you and completely gimps you. An airdodge probably would have helped here.

2:16.. what did you expect that shield breaker to do? Obviously marth in that situation will recover low, you should have taken this opportunity to go off stage and attempt to gimp him.

2:25.. completely random shield breaker with probably no possibility to hit him, luckily he doesn't punish you for it which he could have

2:28.. you throw him into the air and don't follow it up with anything, luckily he landed right in front of you and you took advantage

3:08.. another shield breaker with a lot of space in between both of you, he punishes

3:28.. he uses a random shield breaker and you attempt a short hop shield breaker which is very slow and unreliable, a dash to dancing blade would have worked fine here.

4:05.. he charges a shield breaker and then you mimic him, this time it blows up in your face and it costs you the match. you could have easily waited another half second for his shield breaker to unleash and possibly taken off his last stock.

Overall you're a decent marth, but you still need some work. You use WAY too much shield breaker (i watched the first vid and you did the same thing), i don't think you actually hit a shield with it even once. It's good for that extra range and recovering, but you are overusing it.

You don't edge guard at all which marth is very good at.

You sometimes fail to punish him for mistakes and if you did you would have easily taken this match.

Keep working on your game, you both did well.
 

IDK

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 28, 2008
Messages
1,708
Location
Yo Couch
seems like you just need to be more agressive and use more aerials. like shorthopped fairs, double fairs, weaved fairs, RARs, forward throw to ken combo or spike when near the edge... so on... so forth. like he said, edgeguard/hog. spike... earlier kills with marth. spikes, edgehogs, and tippers.
 

Steel

Where's my Jameson?
BRoomer
Joined
Mar 30, 2008
Messages
7,587
Location
Los Angeles, CA
seems like you just need to be more agressive and use more aerials. like shorthopped fairs, double fairs, weaved fairs, RARs, forward throw to ken combo or spike when near the edge... so on... so forth. like he said, edgeguard/hog. spike... earlier kills with marth. spikes, edgehogs, and tippers.
Ken combo????? In brawl :confused:

He was smart to not be so airborne during the ditto, that just doesn't work in marth vs marth.
 

BananaTrooper

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 19, 2008
Messages
420
Location
U of T
Ken combo????? In brawl :confused:

He was smart to not be so airborne during the ditto, that just doesn't work in marth vs marth.
Lol, I seem to remember getting a ken combo on one of our later matches steel :) (lil off topic srry, i <3 u steel)

As for aerial attacks, I think they work just fine in dittoes. Theyre not necessarily approaches to be spammed, but theyre still overall too good to be ignored.
 

Steel

Where's my Jameson?
BRoomer
Joined
Mar 30, 2008
Messages
7,587
Location
Los Angeles, CA
Lol, I seem to remember getting a ken combo on one of our later matches steel :) (lil off topic srry, i <3 u steel)

As for aerial attacks, I think they work just fine in dittoes. Theyre not necessarily approaches to be spammed, but theyre still overall too good to be ignored.
yeah.. >.>

Still - it's just one air dodge away from being avoided. Btw BT i want a rematch ^_^
 

VietGeek

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
8,133
You can avoid the Ken Combo so easily in this game. Just airdodge or DI away from the attacker (or even better, a combination of both). I think Wi-Fi screws up proper DI to be honest.

You (Steel) got hit by a Fthrow to Fsmash at mid-percentages near a ledge at Smashville with Emblem Lord in a ditto probably because you either DI'd inward trying to Counter or something or chose not to DI at all/lag screwed you off. It seemed so deliberately planned by Emblem Lord though, are these those "tech traps" he never really elaborated on (probably only remembered this because he never explained himself)?

Steel2nd, that analysis wasn't too bad. I didn't even have to load a video overnight to see for myself, your words painted a slightly more epic picture of the match at hand.

Are you thinking of taking the throne one day? :laugh:
 

Steel

Where's my Jameson?
BRoomer
Joined
Mar 30, 2008
Messages
7,587
Location
Los Angeles, CA
You can avoid the Ken Combo so easily in this game. Just airdodge or DI away from the attacker (or even better, a combination of both). I think Wi-Fi screws up proper DI to be honest.

You (Steel) got hit by a Fthrow to Fsmash at mid-percentages near a ledge at Smashville with Emblem Lord in a ditto probably because you either DI'd inward trying to Counter or something or chose not to DI at all/lag screwed you off. It seemed so deliberately planned by Emblem Lord though, are these those "tech traps" he never really elaborated on (probably only remembered this because he never explained himself)?
I don't remember exactly what was happening, but just watching i only got grabbed at about 16%. The f throw to f smash combo is at about 0-6%, but seeing as I was very close to the ledge, which is a very dangerous position to be in, I probably attempted an air dodge while DI'ng in and perhaps the wifi delay wasn't able to pick it up. Maybe I didn't do anything, i made a lot of mistakes in those matches and I've been working to fix them. That's the good thing about having recordings, you can learn what you are doing wrong.
 

Remzi

formerly VaBengal
Joined
Apr 20, 2008
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3,398
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Remziz4
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I would take advantage of Marth's air game a bit more, though I do like your ability to use Marth's ground game profficently. I also noticed that you failed to punish a missed smash a good amount of times. Last, you smash a bit too much, this is bad because of stale moves, risky, and there are quicker ways to rack up damage.
 

VietGeek

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
8,133
Suoinegni, I watched the Sheik Video instead because most of us...err Marth-users know that this particular Marth ditto is a match-up that usually throws out all conventional tools Marth has at his disposal and usually focuses on a defensive ground game. Therefore, critiquing that means most just critique a fraction of your playstyle.

So I watched Sheik and you face off with hopes for some aggressive action to wake me up from my half-slumber (and to hopefully see more of your air-game):

You missed like...a lot of F-airs. Considering your aerial game seems to be currently synonymous with F-air, that's kinda a bad thing. You had trouble punishing that Sheik even though that Sheik had little but roll, grab, charge needles, smashing, some aerials, and maybe some other stuff.

You had a good number of opportunities to punish the Sheik's smashing. You overused Shield Breaker, which while I admit that I don't use enough, you use a good number, except with little account of whether or not it'll benefit you.

You tried too hard to use Usmash to punish Sheik. First off, while Usmash was buffed from Melee, it's still not good enough for you to rush in and Usmash Sheik. Because you used it so often, it became harder for you to achieve vertical kills. To be honest, that whole match seemed to be won only because Sheik screwed up her recovery so often.

You had the same problem as me long ago in March and wanted to shieldgrab everything that hits your shield. That doesn't work with Marth. His range is not ROB's range, or Dedede's range (I would want to say it's as bad as the Ice Climber's range). He can't control a match off of mostly grabs like in Melee, or like the two I mentioned above. Out of a shield, you should punish with Dolphin Slash if your foe is rushing at you mercilessly, or Dancing Blade.

So yeah, your punishing game probably could be better. Maybe you never fought Sheik's before, or maybe you were completely apathetic, but you shielded a lot, but didn't really follow up.

Ah, and unless you completely miss, it's best to completely finish Dancing Blade. Lag may have screwed you here, but I saw a lot of unfinished ones even though you had Sheik right where you wanted her. Also, don't generally finish off with the upward slash unless you know you'll hit with it. I generally make the third hit upward too if I want to end with them up in the air because the third hit raises them ever so slightly for the 4th Umove. I didn't see much of your aerial punishment game, and was hoping you'll be able to pull off the upward Dancing Blade to possibly chain into something greater.

On the last stock, I noticed Sheik became much more aggressive. There was a particular moment where you tried to punish with Fsmash, but you could have gone with Counter and pushed Sheik away to give you some room.

I guess like what Emblem Lord told me, work on your responses, or your reactive play. Proactive play comes later, I guess when you shape up your responses to be more refined (which, by the way, I'm still pretty bad on).

Hey, since we both have Marths that need some fine-tuning, can you make it to this weekend's Waba monthly?: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=160978

It's on June 21st (Brawl), 22nd is for Melee (which I will not be attending because I haven't played that game in ages, and my mind can't split between two different Smash games). Err come early and let's play (mostly non-ditto matches).
 

Suoinegni

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 21, 2007
Messages
105
Location
Powder Springs, GA
Like I said, not my best. I don't really know what I was thinking (maybe because it was like 1 in the morning? ... No johns); I never use Shieldbreaker that much, and I didn't go in the air 'cause I got wrecked every time I did in previous matches. The lag, and probably my general half-alertness screwed up my DB several times over. But I played this guy again yesterday (didn't record tho =/) and I did significantly better. I think I only lost once. Regardless, I'll work on the other stuff.

Hey, since we both have Marths that need some fine-tuning, can you make it to this weekend's Waba monthly?: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=160978

It's on June 21st (Brawl), 22nd is for Melee (which I will not be attending because I haven't played that game in ages, and my mind can't split between two different Smash games). Err come early and let's play (mostly non-ditto matches).
I might. I dunno. I'll be doing stuff with my friends that day, but I'll try.
 

DireklianCliff

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 18, 2008
Messages
40
Location
Woodbridge, VA
Okay. I'm not going to give you a wall of text. You've got enough of those. I'll just point out the bare necessities.

Three things:
- Work on spacing and/or landing your hits! Far too many missed smashes. Even if you have to slow down your gameplay, sitting around doing nothing is better than getting punished for missing.
- Use combos to rack up damage. Smashes should be saved for finishing your opponent, not softening them up.
- Punish punish punish! Marth is so quick that every opportunity to punish your opponent CAN and SHOULD be taken.
 
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