Ike's Matchups

[Commander]

My playing partner plays Sheik, and it's honestly way better then people treat it. Honesty, it's a lot of fun and shouldn't be nearly as intimidating for Ike players as it is.

It is a lot like the Marth Sheik match up for me. It is somewhat difficult at times but a lot of fun. I haven't played a sheik in P:M for a long time though.

 

[MLGF]

Shame, CT is Sheiktown and I love it.

But mass is Linkville and I don't wanna talk about that BS.

 

[MWEX]

and you have to deal with sonic Kappa

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I had the chance to play the Sheik match-up for the first time in a while against Darkatma's Sheik in GF1, resetting the bracket and beating his Fox in GF2. (For reference, Darkatma is the best player in St. Louis and easily in the top 4 players of the Midwest, up there with Kels, Duck, and Darkrain.) IMO the match-up felt really doable since Ike could CC most of Sheik's attacks and juggle her for extremely long periods of time, but getting hit and edgeguarded still really sucked. The videos are on Twitch, but hopefully they'll be on YouTube soon.

Which channel?

 

[metroid1117]

You don't ever say they are even. It is always "doable". Why do you like that word specifically? It makes it sound like Ike is at a disadvantage but gameplay always looks even.

In practice, it's probably even but I prefer to be more conservative since Ike's punish game relies on positional advantage from UThrow whereas Sheik's punish game relies on tech chases and more consistent links (anything -> FAir, needle -> grab, etc.). IMO, Sheik also has the advantage in neutral but both characters edgeguard each other pretty hard. I've gotten better over the past year so I don't think it's necessarily a bad match-up anymore (especially after playing Darkatma on Saturday), but I need more recent experience to call it an even match-up, hence the term "doable" (which feels somewhere in-between).

Which channel?

The channel is RollaSmash and the broadcast is here, but it's not loading very quickly on my computer. The set is the very last set of the night. (Darkatma said on Facebook that it was at 2215, but I'm not really sure what that's referring to.)

 

[Commander]

Shame, CT is Sheiktown and I love it.

But mass is Linkville and I don't wanna talk about that BS.

SoCal is such a big region that I tend to see a wide variety of chars when I go to tourney, however Melee chars have grow scarce since it seems all the people who play them would rather just stick to Melee, excluding the players who now they will win everything.

 

[SanjiG]

The game starts at 09:42:50.

 

[MLGF]

SoCal is such a big region that I tend to see a wide variety of chars when I go to tourney, however Melee chars have grow scarce since it seems all the people who play them would rather just stick to Melee, excluding the players who now they will win everything.

Sounds pretty accurate.
Melee players jumped off as soon as they started losing .
A lot of PM players here jumped Sheik however. We have 3 or 4ish.
We also have a lot of Ness players. Like, more Ness' then Mario's.

 

[metroid1117]

On a completely unrelated note, this combo was probably the highlight of my day lol.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

On a completely unrelated note, this combo was probably the highlight of my day lol.

Lol, BAD DI BAD DI BAD DI BAD DI aaaaand dead.

I was pretty confused that you went Charizard game 1 tbh, Ike bodies Wario pretty hard.

Question: Does Toasted Ravs 5 have videos anywhere?

 

[metroid1117]

Lol, BAD DI BAD DI BAD DI BAD DI aaaaand dead.

I was pretty confused that you went Charizard game 1 tbh, Ike bodies Wario pretty hard.

Question: Does Toasted Ravs 5 have videos anywhere?

From personal experience, I've had more success using Charizard against Strong Bad's Wario than Ike. I felt like I wasn't playing very well though and made the switch to Ike on game 2 just to see if it'd be better.

TR5 had stream videos, but the streamer didn't get them uploaded fast enough to YouTube before they were deleted from the archive .

 

[metroid1117]

Sorry for the double-post, but since the Sheik match-up gets asked about so often and I have recent footage of it, I've decided to post my set with Darkatma here as well. In general, try to keep her up in the air as long as you can, since sharking her with NAirs, UAirs, and UTilt (which has intangibility on Ike's arm) is relatively easy. Once you get her offstage, it's a matter of grabbing the edge to force her onto the stage, wavelanding onto the stage, using DSmash1 (or 2 if they land behind you) to send her off, and repeat. Getting hit and edgeguarded by her is painful though, so CC her tilts at low %s and watch out for the DI mix-up between BThrow and DThrow (what usually works for me is to DI behind her for the BThrow and react to the DThrow animation, but most Melee veterans will prefer DThrow by default).

 

[WhinoTheRhino]

How should we DI Sheik's DThrow? And this is some great advice, btw.

 

[MLGF]

Down Away.
But honestly, you shouldn't get grabbed by Sheik. Play a lot of spacing with mixups, Sheik's grab range is pretty weak so you should be fine as long as you approach safely. QD fakeouts all day, every day.

 

[metroid1117]

Sheik's grab is supposedly the 10th best in the game, I'm not really sure how you think its range is weak.

 

[MLGF]

...It is? Huh, it's a little slow honestly, I can avoid it. Or fake it out.
I didn't mention, it's mostly defensive Sheik I play... yeah... I guess if I were playing an aggro Sheik this wouldn't work as well.
Going against that stuff has never been something I've worried about I suppose. I still think Ike has plenty of options to avoid it at the least.

 

[metroid1117]

The problem I face against Sheiks is that although her moveset is susceptible to CC'ing, the same is true for Ike's moveset when she's at low %s. Common combo starters like QD attack, NAir, hilt/blade FAir, or jab are easy CC grab/DTilt/FTilt bait at low %s, forcing you to resort to QD grabbing in order to get her in the air so that she can't CC (which is countered by needle spam). I agree that Ike does have options to get around CC'ing, but against Sheik it may be more difficult that you make it out to be.

 

[SpiderMad]

and watch out for the DI mix-up between BThrow and DThrow (what usually works for me is to DI behind her for the BThrow and react to the DThrow animation, but most Melee veterans will prefer DThrow by default).

In which case I react to the D-throw and DI ?directly forward in front of her?

Lol you got Atma to switch to Fox? Isn't he an even better Sheik than Kels? Do you think the Fox MU is harder than Sheik or was he playing it wrong?

@ metroid1117 Are you going to the Milwaukee, WI Kings of the North tourney?

 

[Commander]

In which case I react to the D-throw and DI ?directly forward in front of her?

You would DI in front of Sheik so you would be far enough to avoid getting fair'd. With bthrow you DI in the direction you are thrown as well for the same reason.

 

[SpiderMad]

What should Falco do in Melee vs PM after getting grabbed by Sheik

 

[Commander]

What should Falco do in Melee vs PM after getting grabbed by Sheik

Try to not die. What does Falco normally do in Melee? The way Sheik's throws are supposed to work in PM is that Bthrow and Dthrow are DI traps for the other. If you DI for Dthrow and get Bthrow you can get regrabbed or fair'd. Vice versa for Dthrow.

 

[SpiderMad]

Try to not die. What does Falco normally do in Melee? The way Sheik's throws are supposed to work in PM is that Bthrow and Dthrow are DI traps for the other. If you DI for Dthrow and get Bthrow you can get regrabbed or fair'd. Vice versa for Dthrow.

Yeah but how do the throw changes work out for how Sheik handles fast-fallers after a grab? I think they usually hit ground before a fair until high percent in Melee

 

[Commander]

Yeah but how do the throw changes work out for how Sheik handles fast-fallers after a grab? I think they usually hit ground before a fair until high percent in Melee

If they lead to tech chases in Melee they probably lead to tech chases in PM. Sheik may be able to fair earlier since I think it was the knock back that was increased to get rid of the chain grab.

 

[metroid1117]

Lol you got Atma to switch to Fox? Isn't he an even better Sheik than Kels? Do you think the Fox MU is harder than Sheik or was he playing it wrong?

Both of their Sheiks are really good, I haven't played Kels' Sheik recently though. Atma bopped me with Fox in WF, he said he went Sheik in GF1 because he hadn't warmed up his hands since he had to sit and wait for the bracket to progress. IMO the neutral game in the Fox match-up is a lot harder since Fox can camp and NAirplane, but the combo game on Fox is much easier than Sheik. Personally, after my performance against Darkatma, the Fox match-up seems harder simply because the neutral game is much more difficult and edgeguarding isn't as guaranteed.

@ metroid1117 Are you going to the Milwaukee, WI Kings of the North tourney?

Nope, I live roughly 7.5 hrs from Milwaukee now .

 

[Dregnox]

For Kirby match up
Ike UpB can zero death Kirby off the top blast zone ._.

 

[Commander]

For Kirby match up
Ike UpB can zero death Kirby off the top blast zone ._.

That occurs for a very large portion of the the cast, however for it to occur you have to hit with two very specific hitboxes on Aether(one at the start and and one right when Ragnell starts spinning). Any DI will cause an opponent to avoid getting launched. It is incredibly hard to setup anyways and is not worth going for.

 

[foxygrandpa]

I'm actually under the impression that Ike slightly beats fox. He can chaingrab him until he's off the stage into relatively easy edgeguards. Fox doesnt really have any tools to shut down quickdraw once Ike gets a little control either. Quickdraw is effective in taking fox out of the neutral if you try to take advantage of fox's small range, but fox still probably wins in that area. I bopped m2k's fox with ike pretty consistently, I dont think he wasnt able to take more than 2 stocks off of me.
Mewtwo seems like its ike's hardest matchup at the moment in my opinion. His range, projectiles and teleport shut down all approaches and win him the neutral, and stage picks are all terrible against him.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I'm actually under the impression that Ike slightly beats fox. He can chaingrab him until he's off the stage into relatively easy edgeguards. Fox doesnt really have any tools to shut down quickdraw once Ike gets a little control either. Quickdraw is effective in taking fox out of the neutral if you try to take advantage of fox's small range, but fox still probably wins in that area. I bopped m2k's fox with ike pretty consistently, I dont think he wasnt able to take more than 2 stocks off of me.
Mewtwo seems like its ike's hardest matchup at the moment in my opinion. His range, projectiles and teleport shut down all approaches and win him the neutral, and stage picks are all terrible against him.

... VWins?

Mewtwo v. Ike is horribad, but hopefully not for much longer. If he retains most of his playstyle, though, I predict Mewtwo will remain a soft counter to Ike in 3.5. Mewtwo is basically Marth with a better recovery, projectile and is harder to combo. He shuts down Ike rather well.

 

[Commander]

The biggest problem with MewTwo is that he comes out of hitstun before Ike comes out of hitlag. Even meteor bouncing him off the ground doesn't have enough stun. **** Mewtwo.

 

[metroid1117]

The biggest problem with MewTwo is that he comes out of hitstun before Ike comes out of hitlag. Even meteor bouncing him off the ground doesn't have enough stun. **** Mewtwo.

Both characters suffer the same amount of hitlag when an attack connects, so I think you might mean "cooldown".

Mewtwo-Ike is a really annoying match-up, but I'm not exactly sure if it's Ike's worst match-up. Personally, I'd rather fight a Mewtwo over a Sonic or Kirby.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Both characters suffer the same amount of hitlag when an attack connects, so I think you might mean "cooldown".

Mewtwo-Ike is a really annoying match-up, but I'm not exactly sure if it's Ike's worst match-up. Personally, I'd rather fight a Mewtwo over a Sonic or Kirby.

Kirbies that aren't Chu lose to Ike actually. He can space Kirby out really hard.

 

[King of Hoboz]

Also, Ike shouldn't ever fear Kirby's suicide tactics. I go balls deep against the rampant amount of Kirbies I've met and bop them off stage.

 

[metroid1117]

Kirbies that aren't Chu lose to Ike actually. He can space Kirby out really hard.

I have trouble against Kirbys that crouch while facing backward; in this position, Ike can't grab him, QD attack gets CC'd, and shffl'd FAir gets beat out by Kirby's BAir. NAir can work, but it also gets CC'd at low %s. Kirby facing backwards in the air is also difficult to challenge since BAir snuffs out FAir and NAir both in terms of coming out faster and in terms of sticking out; since Kirby's aerial drift is better than Ike's, it's hard to beat out even lingering BAir at close quarters if they space properly. This becomes very apparent in edgeguarding, since Ike must commit to FAir'ing/NAir'ing early to ward off Kirby but this is fairly telegraphed and can be easily baited. If all else fails for the Kirby, they can drift out to force Ike to go low and then grab the edge to edgeguard Aether.

I'm probably biased though, since the only Kirby I've played against is Chu lol.

 

[Commander]

I have trouble against Kirbys that crouch while facing backward; in this position, Ike can't grab him, QD attack gets CC'd, and shffl'd FAir gets beat out by Kirby's BAir. NAir can work, but it also gets CC'd at low %s. Kirby facing backwards in the air is also difficult to challenge since BAir snuffs out FAir and NAir both in terms of coming out faster and in terms of sticking out; since Kirby's aerial drift is better than Ike's, it's hard to beat out even lingering BAir at close quarters if they space properly. This becomes very apparent in edgeguarding, since Ike must commit to FAir'ing/NAir'ing early to ward off Kirby but this is fairly telegraphed and can be easily baited. If all else fails for the Kirby, they can drift out to force Ike to go low and then grab the edge to edgeguard Aether.

I'm probably biased though, since the only Kirby I've played against is Chu lol.

Clearly the best course of action is to just Quickdraw>Aether Launcher. Kappa

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Drink Jasmine Tea.

Clear your mind.

Open your third eye.

Sit down across from your opponent. There is no Chu. No Dat. Simply a Kirby that does not know it has no stocks.

See it in your mind's eye. You QD cancelling into Aether at the perfect time. Hear Kirby's death wail. Feel your bloodlust rise and tame it. Make it your power, make it your strength.

Then do it. Four times.

Ike-Kirby 100-0 matchup confirmed

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

And yeah I suppose what you said makes sense, @ metroid1117 I mean it really just becomes a bait and footsie game at that point and Chu is more patient and better at the neutral than is humanly possible.

Like I mean wow, Melee Ice Climbers players are not to be f***ed with ...

 

[Frenzy]

Never mind, posted in wrong forum.

 

[MLGF]

I picked up Marth for Mewtwo, works really well.
Personally, Kirby and Link are my least favorites. Someone is trying really hard to emulate Chudat round here.

 

[Jolteon]

Nice stuff vs Atma, metroid. Your juggles were looking really solid.

Also, I got the Ike itch and started playing this character again... not in tournament, but he's so fun!

 

[Chef2]

This is really minor vs. sheik but hey it all helps. Also if someone already mentioned this, my bad (ike forums have a lot of love ).

If you get a grab at 0% (and this only works at 0%), you can up throw non-sweet spotted Bair to send her into non-tumble hitstun. Sheik will then fall to the ground and land upright. If you fast fall l-cancel the Bair, she is now frame trapped for a regrab. This nets you holding sheik and 21%. Now I find it's usually best to just u-throw nair to put her at 40%, but you won't be able to juggle. If you want to try for the juggle, she needs a little more percent, so two reps of d-throw (relies on her using bad di though) with some head butts puts her high enough to u throw nair/uair juggle.

I know this is getting long, but the key on the first uthrow is to not hit the sweet spot. If you do, she goes into tumble hitstun and it's hard to follow up with sheiks great tech roll (unless she misses the tech, free jab reset). If she di's behind you or no di, it's easy to hit with the arm/blade/tip, but if she di's in front your forced to do a reverse Bair. However, it is still possible to hit with the blade on a reverse Bair, the spacing is just tight.

Pretty niche advice but I get a lot of mileage out of it vs the sheiks I play!