Ike's AAA(jab)-combo sucks and here is why...

[tk~]

uh if you guys played enough CPU 9s you guys should know that Ike's AAA is punishable, they punish it all the time..., seriously all the time. FYI, SH retreating n air is Ike's best move and best approach, it comes out fast, covers the most range, punishes people trying to roll behind you (at low percentages, it can lead into a bair), and it's safe when shielded.

 

[VersatileBJN]

This really isn't too big of a deal the more I realize how little Ike needs to approach with his Jab. If used in the manner I've said before this isnt going to happen very much.

Ike's Jab combo tends to have way more lag in between the first and second hit when tapped instead of held. The gamecube controller's A button needs to be tapped fast back to back for it to come out at maximum speed. This is pretty easy to mess up if tapped, but it always comes out full speed when held. When held, I don't see how anyone can humanly react and short hop nair. Seriously, I discussed this with Azen and he said that sounds wacked out. Up B? Perhaps though. If Marth can consistently up B out of Ike's Jab combo on reaction time I am not giving the reaction time of a smasher enough credit at all

As for being able to Up B as he is being hit. That's a big deal depending on when he can do it. This can be used against Marth badly if it's the third hit. I personally only finish the combo 50% of the time. The rest of the time I follow up after the first or 2nd jab with throw, short hop nair, etc.

If he can do that after being hit with the 2nd hit, though, OUCH.

 

[Eddy01741]

You should compare holding down A to tapping A with the jab cancel technique (A, crouch (down on control stick), A, crouch, A) and see if that's any good too, bcause I know for a fact that that is faster than just tapping A.

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

Okay... I'm looking at my test data right now.

Before anyone asks, I HELD the A button for all of these, AND tapped as fast as humanly possible. They both gave the same results.

As to that one kid who claims you can cancel each and every Jab with a crouch, I tested it, and couldn't simulate the effect, even in 1/4 time. As far as I'm concerned, you're fooling yourself. Unless someone I know has a lot of experience/testing ability confirms you speak the truth, I'm going to assume your theory is bunk. ,

It would be impossible to do it if your hit, but we already knew this. The exception is Marth (this is who I'm testing it on). He has non-stun frames between the two hits, so he can technically Up-B in between hits, regardless of whether he shields or not. Consistency could be an issue, but players like M2K DO exist. A lot of Fox players were frame perfect players too. Conclusion: Professional level play, Marth will not worry about Ike's Jabs. *cries*

Next, it entirely possible to shield the first hit, and roll behind Ike. This is with any character. You don't even have to power-shield. Thats never good, despite if you can Nair him. Conclusion: Every character can shield the jab and punish it. *Cries*

You can also jump, without power-shielding. You can easily follow it up with a airdodge, then jump out of range. Remember, this is assuming you don't even power-shield. I could never pull out an aerial, but remember, this is WITHOUT power-shielding, which has less lag. Conclusion: Every character can jump out of range if they shielded the jab. *cries*

Conclusion: Even without testing the abilities of powershielding, every character in the game can shield -> roll or shield -> jump Ike's Jabs. Unless you jab once, and immediately cancel into a tech-chase, you're screwed. *cries*

I'm sure Yuna is very amused by these conclusions. I can't wait to see what he'll dig up when he tests power-shielding.

 

[NoVaLombardia]

umm... AAA does not have super armor, why do people still think this?
It just has high priority.

His d-tilt also has no SA either.

Check the SA Frame list in tactical discussion more often.

 

[VersatileBJN]

Trebor, good stuff, but most of what you said is common knowledge. It's why I say using Ike's jab offensively is not smart play.

marth will still have to fear jab combo simply because it has high priority and can punish barely unsafe stuff. Ike will just have to be more careful when using it.

Good find Trebor, Yuna. Better I know about this now then eating it in a tourney.

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

*Double Post*

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

I still one major issue for Ike's metagame. How many of us follow a Nair up with a Jab combo, hoping it will prevent a defensive response?

This info refutes that tactic. However, I assume one could follow up Nair with a grab, or possibly an U-tilt (close land) or F-tilt (farther land) to counter shield grabs...

I guess it just means one more layer of difficulty for Ike's metagame.

On a side note, Yuna, have you seen this work with OTHER characters jab combos, or is Ike's the only one slow enough for this to happen?

 

[Ussi]

My question is would damage affect this? Trebor did you ever try to put Marth on a higher % to see if he would be stunned longer?

 

[VersatileBJN]

If spaced properly nair jab after nair should be safe cookies. Not sure tho.

When I first started using nair I used to only follow up with jab, but if you nair,spot dodge/nair,backdash/nair,retreat fair/nair,block you should be ok.

I still would say Ike vs Marth his a pretty close fight that slightly favors Marth.

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

My question is would damage affect this? Trebor did you ever try to put Marth on a higher % to see if he would be stunned longer?

I did not actually test this. It's important to consider, but, also consider that the first two hits of the jab have practically no knockback, therefore damage % wouldn't affect stun-time drastically. Worth checking into though, maybe tomorrow. xD

If spaced properly nair jab after nair should be safe cookies. Not sure tho.

When I first started using nair I used to only follow up with jab, but if you nair,spot dodge/nair,backdash/nair,retreat fair/nair,block you should be ok.

I still would say Ike vs Marth his a pretty close fight that slightly favors Marth.

Nah, spacing wouldn't help you in this case. Marth's N-air has considerably more range than the first hits of the jab, so no amount of spacing would let you ht him, while not getting hit back.

As for it being a match slightly in favour of Marth... it really depends on how well Marth develop that Up-B as a counterattack skill. If they start mastering that, Jab's are sunk, giving Marth a considerable advantage.

Until then, slightly in Marth's favour. ^^

 

[tk~]

Did the Ike actually perform the kick (aka the second A) when you n aired him? because if he did, that would actually explain a lot. The reason I ask is because the hit box for the kick is pretty low and I'm sure most of you Ike users have been in a situation where your initial jab connects but you miss the kick because the opp is too high off the ground. Since the above scenario can happen, I'm pretty sure a SH out of shield can probably evade the kick as well and is the most likely scenario for how that Ike got n aired in the face.

 

[Yuna]

As for being able to Up B as he is being hit. That's a big deal depending on when he can do it. This can be used against Marth badly if it's the third hit. I personally only finish the combo 50% of the time. The rest of the time I follow up after the first or 2nd jab with throw, short hop nair, etc.

If he can do that after being hit with the 2nd hit, though, OUCH.

If you follow it up with a throw, shorthop nair or something else, you'll still get hit by the Up B/Nair.

You should compare holding down A to tapping A with the jab cancel technique (A, crouch (down on control stick), A, crouch, A) and see if that's any good too, bcause I know for a fact that that is faster than just tapping A.

I will.


It would be impossible to do it if your hit, but we already knew this. The exception is Marth (this is who I'm testing it on). He has non-stun frames between the two hits, so he can technically Up-B in between hits, regardless of whether he shields or not. Consistency could be an issue, but players like M2K DO exist. A lot of Fox players were frame perfect players too. Conclusion: Professional level play, Marth will not worry about Ike's Jabs. *cries*[/quote]
I don't remember Marth having less shieldstun than others. I've never heard of this before. If Marth can do it, anyone with a good Nair/Fair can as well.

Next, it entirely possible to shield the first hit, and roll behind Ike. This is with any character. You don't even have to power-shield. Thats never good, despite if you can Nair him. Conclusion: Every character can shield the jab and punish it. *Cries*

Rolls are slow. If Ike stops after the 1st jab (or possibly sometimes even after the 2nd), he can either roll himself, spotdodge or punish the roller IIRC. Don't take my word for it, though.

You can also jump, without power-shielding. You can easily follow it up with a airdodge, then jump out of range. Remember, this is assuming you don't even power-shield. I could never pull out an aerial, but remember, this is WITHOUT power-shielding, which has less lag. Conclusion: Every character can jump out of range if they shielded the jab. *cries*

There's also shieldgrabbing .

I'm sure Yuna is very amused by these conclusions. I can't wait to see what he'll dig up when he tests power-shielding.

Muahahahahaha. Just you wait.

I still one major issue for Ike's metagame. How many of us follow a Nair up with a Jab combo, hoping it will prevent a defensive response?

This info refutes that tactic. However, I assume one could follow up Nair with a grab, or possibly an U-tilt (close land) or F-tilt (farther land) to counter shield grabs...

Lag. You'll suffer a shieldgrab if you try this too often. Or people will just let go of their shields and whack you in the face.

On a side note, Yuna, have you seen this work with OTHER characters jab combos, or is Ike's the only one slow enough for this to happen?

I didn't get to play against any characters I thought this would work against at that tournament (this happened late in the tournament and I went "Yes!!!". I'll try it come out Friday.

I can see this working against Snake.

My question is would damage affect this? Trebor did you ever try to put Marth on a higher % to see if he would be stunned longer?

The jab-combo barely has any knockback increase with damage (not the first two hits at least). Not to mention that we're talking about options on shield here. You don't have more shieldstun if you have more damage. What it might do it buy Ike that one frame more so Marth can't Up B his face after taking a hit (I'll test that out on Friday).

If spaced properly nair jab after nair should be safe cookies. Not sure tho.

Shieldshop Nair/Fair.

When I first started using nair I used to only follow up with jab, but if you nair,spot dodge/nair,backdash/nair,retreat fair/nair,block you should be ok.

What kind of players are you going if they'll letting you Nair, Spotdodge, Nair without punishing you?

Marth's Nair is so crazy you can't possibly punish it (especially not as Ike) if he spaces it properly.

Did the Ike actually perform the kick (aka the second A) when you n aired him? because if he did, that would actually explain a lot. The reason I ask is because the hit box for the kick is pretty low and I'm sure most of you Ike users have been in a situation where your initial jab connects but you miss the kick because the opp is too high off the ground. Since the above scenario can happen, I'm pretty sure a SH out of shield can probably evade the kick as well and is the most likely scenario for how that Ike got n aired in the face.

No. It was inbetween the 1st two hits IIRC. And I was so close he should've hit me with the kick. It's just that my Nair was too fast.

 

[VersatileBJN]

lmao Yuna I didn't say nair,spot dodge, nair again. I said nair,spot dodge or nair,backroll,etc.

I'm going to test this extensively tomorrow with a friend, but really, it isn't a big deal for Ike, at least not the way I use him/feel he should be used. Pressuring with blocked jabs = fail for anyone with any sort of defensive ability.

 

[Yuna]

lmao Yuna I didn't say nair,spot dodge, nair again. I said nair,spot dodge or nair,backroll,etc.

I'm going to test this extensively tomorrow with a friend, but really, it isn't a big deal for Ike, at least not the way I use him/feel he should be used. Pressuring with blocked jabs = fail for anyone with any sort of defensive ability.

Nair to spotdodge isn't really going to help much if they time the shieldgrab correctly. The shieldstun is not enough to make the nair safe IIRC. I could be wrong, though.

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

In regards to my findings about getting hit by the jab while still being able to attack Yuna, Marth is able to do a follow up attack with Up-B because of the invulnerability frames on the first frames of the move. Remember, that test assumed you got hit on the first jab, no shields or dodges.

No other character I know of gets Inv. Frames, or even Super Armour frames, at the very first frames of the move. That allows him to only need 1 frame of non-hit-stun in order to pull off the attack, while other characters need significantly more to properly pull out an attack. I could be wrong of course, my knowledge of frame times isn't very good yet.

Still, this discovery makes mindgaming so much more important for Ike. Even JABBING can't just operate the way its supposed to. Kinda makes me sad on the inside.

And I hope to high Heaven that this tactic affects BOTH of Snake's A- Combos. They seriously give him ridiculousy strong options in regards to defense and kill power. -.-

 

[VersatileBJN]

I guess it just won't affect me much since I was never under the impression that Jab was something to be used in a reckless manner.

 

[thewiredknight]

I very rarely use his AAA combo actually. I find his tilts more useful even if they are slow. Mostly because I find with Ike that unless your opponent is airborn your best strategy is to get one or two clean hits in that knock them away and wait for an oppertunity to do it again. Ike's knockback is good enough that eventually this will kill.

Only times I use AAA

Quickdraw approach into AAA (though I've noticed I tend to combo that into ftilt instead sometimes to control distance)
If my opponent is virtually right on top of me and I need something really fast to come out to get them away from me (though I find bair is better for this if you have the room to do it).

Generally if the jab combo gets shileded I either will spot dodge since often they will counterattack the moment they can or roll away and wait for another oppertunity since thankfully Ike can cancel the combo.

 

[SkytyOwns]

this doesn't make much sense but it doesn't matter how much it sucks but it's still pretty good.

 

[Dark Sonic]

In regards to my findings about getting hit by the jab while still being able to attack Yuna, Marth is able to do a follow up attack with Up-B because of the invulnerability frames on the first frames of the move. Remember, that test assumed you got hit on the first jab, no shields or dodges.

He also naired after being hit, on which Marth has no invincibility. Nair comes out in 3 frames. That means there is at least three frames between jabs even when being hit that you are not in stun. Lots of characters have aerials that are that fast.

Now here's one general question though. Is it possible that Marth simply suffers less hitstun than some other characters. We know in melee he had one of the faster stun recoveries, and if this is true in brawl it may explain why he's able to do all this crazy stuff.

No other character I know of gets Inv. Frames, or even Super Armour frames, at the very first frames of the move.

Bowser and Samus are invincible during the first frames of their up Bs.

That allows him to only need 1 frame of non-hit-stun in order to pull off the attack, while other characters need significantly more to properly pull out an attack. I could be wrong of course, my knowledge of frame times isn't very good yet.

Not much more. Yuna was able to nair which comes out in 3 frames, and unless he was frame perfect with that nair then I assume that the window is a little bit larger than that. Lots of characters have at least one quick aerial, so their attacks are indeed fast enough. The question is, is their stun recovery fast enough.

I guess it just won't affect me much since I was never under the impression that Jab was something to be used in a reckless manner.

We're saying that (against Marth at least), the jab is not usefull at all. Even if you hit him with the jab he can still up B you while you're in lag. If it gets shielded than it's quite possible to punish it with most of the characters. Ike's jab will be a very risky move once people start getting more precise. The window for this is actually larger than the window for L-cancling, so you should expect people to get profficient at this (at least people who fight Ike often).

 

[Kirby M.D.]

Well, this just means Ike loses a spam move that probably shouldn't have been spammed in the first place. Wasn't the AAA against Marth a bad idea before Yuna found this out though? Really, if an Ike player was in range and went for an AAA, he probably should've eaten some Marth nastiness. Ike's gotta space if he wants to succeed, a retreating SH Nair would be a better idea than the jab combo anyway.

 

[Sethlon]

As to that one kid who claims you can cancel each and every Jab with a crouch, I tested it, and couldn't simulate the effect, even in 1/4 time. As far as I'm concerned, you're fooling yourself. Unless someone I know has a lot of experience/testing ability confirms you speak the truth, I'm going to assume your theory is bunk. ,

You can use the IASA frames of the first two jabs to cancel into a crouch.
The only real application is cancelling a jab with a crouch to immediately jab again (since if you wanted to do anything else, you could just "cancel" into it straight from the IASA frames).. Example: 00:08: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qh9oImG-VFQ&feature=related

Also, old as dirt, ur dum, HugS has been doing this in melee for like 3 years, etcetc.

 

[VersatileBJN]

you play a very good Ike Seth.

Quick question, Why do you do that though?

I can't really think of any practical use.. Comes out faster than a traditional AAA, or just for an extra 2 or 3 damage before finishing the combo?

Sonic Wave, Marth can up+B out of Ike's jab combo at which point?

If he can consistently do that then Jab combo is indeed worthless against Marth, but single jabbing certainly wouldnt be. Jab by it self if spaced and not used in a predictable manner probably cant be up+Bed out of, but Ill have to test it.

 

[Sethlon]

Its faster than the second/third jab...if they block you can just keep cancelling into more jabs; if they try to grab, the jabs'll hit them out of it, if they freak out and keep shielding, you can get a grab in, if they roll behind you you can punish, etc. I've actually had the first jab combo into dsmash at high percents too, as a nice finisher (although your opponent has to be pretty close).

 

[Wolfang]

I havent really spammed the AAA, but thanks for the advice. Basically don't use it very often, because apparently after the second A it can be intercepted, correct? I don't think its one of the horrible moves in Ike's arsenal, just one of the more predictable ones. People only find it good because it has a pretty good priority and its "fast" (which are true), but the only thing I see that's faster/more effective when someone is in your face is his ^tilt.

 

[showmeyagoose]

you dont get it, this guy basically said AAA sucks because its slow...do you know who ike is?
ike IS slow, maybe you dont understand that? hes a slow powerful character, whats so hard to understand.
marth is good against him because of speed, but ike has the power.
havent you read this before you posted?

 

[VersatileBJN]

ok so the notation is

jab~down~jab~down~jab right?

 

[3xSwords]

yeah guys about this jab thing
it only applies if the guy shields the first hit right?
if not I might have a heartattack lol

 

[Sliq]

Can't Ike just jab once then shield?

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

Thank you Sonic Wave for clarifying many of observations. I completely forgot about Marth's increased recovery times in Melee, so if that ability DID transfer, it would explain why Marth was able to Nair Ike in the face. And, after that info you gave, I know that at least 3 characters can consistently punish jabs. I'm sure that we'll find more in the future (more specifically, when Yuna conducts his tests, as he is very thorough about them).

The conclusion I've drawn from all this is, stop using Ike's jabs. Grabs and tilts will probably be the best follow up to landing a Nair, apparently.

 

[RoK the Reaper]

Yuna, Get off Ike's **** and go eat peach out.

 

[Meta Ryu]

the meta game for Ike right now seems to favor a mix up of slow extremely powerful attack with good range, and faster less damageing attacks with decent range mixed in. In Yomi layers it would be -

Layer 1 = Slow big attacks
Layer 2 = faster attacks from the enemy to counter
Layer 3 = faster better ranged attacks from the Ike player to hit before the oppoent does, cause they're expecting it to be slow.
Layer 4 = starts using feints to gauge the Ikes attacks to see which one he is most probably toe use
Layer 5 = hitting hard in the feint time with strong slow aerials or smashes thusly often killing playersof all sorts of different varieties.



Someone spamming just his fast attacks probably doesn't know what they're doing, Ike is a tank. He's big slow, and will kick your *** with a sword if you let him. Not using the maxium power of that sword a good amount is just silly.

 

[XSilvenX]

LOL somebody hates Ike...

 

[Yuna]

you dont get it, this guy basically said AAA sucks because its slow...do you know who ike is?
ike IS slow, maybe you dont understand that? hes a slow powerful character, whats so hard to understand.
marth is good against him because of speed, but ike has the power.
havent you read this before you posted?

AAA is one of Ike's fastest options. It was unsafe before this was discovered. This just shows that it's horrendously unsafe and even if you space it, you'll still get punished on block (by anyone with a good Nair/Fair).

This shuts down yet another one Ike's approach-moves. This isn't just Marth-specific. Anyone with a fast jump and a fast aerial with range will be able to own him.

 

[VersatileBJN]

Nah, overhyped until used consistently in a real match. You still don't understand that's a fantastic punish move. Even if what your saying about it no longer being even moderately safe if the first jab is blocked, it's still a great punisher for all except Marth and Samus.

I'm not sure if Jab cancelling into jab can be interrupted either, ill be looking into it. If so, what Seth was doing was solid and could be a new standard for Ike's poking game.

Regardless, I just don't see how people are gonna consistently block his jab on reaction and follow up with a short hop nair/fair upon blocking consistently. For this to be done with any kind of consistency the Ike player would have to be spamming out his jab like it's going to be taken out in the next patch: something no good Ike is going to do.

PUNISH MOVE! Pressure STUFFER!

 

[Wolfang]

AAA is one of Ike's fastest options. It was unsafe before this was discovered. This just shows that it's horrendously unsafe and even if you space it, you'll still get punished on block (by anyone with a good Nair/Fair).

This shuts down yet another one Ike's approach-moves. This isn't just Marth-specific. Anyone with a fast jump and a fast aerial with range will be able to own him.

I mean, the way you make it sound, it's almost like it's completely ineffective. I just don't see a wave of bludgeoning coming at me if I use it at the beginning of the match or use it sparingly. It can't be that...horrendous.

So, do feel there is ever a time where the move is appropriate, or are you saying it's a complete waste of time? (and yes showmeyagoose, I read the thread)

 

[3xSwords]

This only means ike's jabs are punished when they are shielded right?

 

[VersatileBJN]

Apparently yes unless you are fighting Marth,Samus, or Bowser who all have invincible frames upon the start up of their up B attacks.

 

[3xSwords]

ok so then marth can NOT punish with his n-air if he was hit by the first jab but he can if he shields it right?

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^Yes. But he can up B if he's hit.

Kinda sucks. Looking back at it now, it's hard to up B between the first and second hit on reaction (it's easy from shield) but it's pretty easy to up B between the second and third hit almost everytime I see a jab combo. The first jab comes out fast enough that most Marth's probably won't react in time to up B you out of it.

There are people like M2K though, and I feel that eventually people will learn the timing for this and learn to do it on reaction, just as Foxes learned how to shine out of stuff (like jabs) in melee.