Ike Social Thread

[SpiderMad]

That was pretty good but I liked this one better .

I dare you to do (and record) this! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcTZ8l7gjIQ (when you have time)

Also how do you feel about the B to do QD Attack? Remember in 2.0 when I was telling you QD Attack is so good

 

[DarkDeity15]

*repost from skype thread*

As a Link main, I'm really trying to have Ike as one of my main secondaries. I have a decent amount of experience with him, so I'd figure it wouldn't be too difficult to learn some new stuff from his mains. There happens to be quite a few experienced PM Ike mains in this thread so I thought I'd ask here. Any pointers on how to get better with him?

 

[metroid1117]

*repost from skype thread*

As a Link main, I'm really trying to have Ike as one of my main secondaries. I have a decent amount of experience with him, so I'd figure it wouldn't be too difficult to learn some new stuff from his mains. There happens to be quite a few experienced PM Ike mains in this thread so I thought I'd ask here. Any pointers on how to get better with him?

I'd recommend practicing QD tricks (old but still relevant) and messing around with throw trajectories in Training Mode; Ike can get a huge profit from grabs at particular %s when the opponent misses their DI, so being familiar with follow-ups is extremely helpful. However, keeping it simple and constantly juggling opponents with UAir/NAir also works if you prefer to keep opponents in bad positions.

 

[grandpappy]

*repost from skype thread*

As a Link main, I'm really trying to have Ike as one of my main secondaries. I have a decent amount of experience with him, so I'd figure it wouldn't be too difficult to learn some new stuff from his mains. There happens to be quite a few experienced PM Ike mains in this thread so I thought I'd ask here. Any pointers on how to get better with him?

Go and watch metroid's Ike lesson video on Windy City Smash's channel on youtube (I'd link it, but I'm at work). C'mon @ metroid1117 you gotta promote your work dude It's from 3.02, but Ike didn't change much in 3.5 so the things he says in that video are still relevant, and metroid's understanding and insight into the character is always awesome.

QD tricks are useful, but don't become one of those guys who uses QD too much. If QD becomes your main movement option it will only work on people who are unfamiliar with the matchup. They'll catch on eventually, and then you've taught yourself to rely on something that you will get punished for often. No bueno.

As far as movement goes, Ike's actually not too shabby. His run speed isn't that great obviously, but his DD and wavedash are pretty decent, and his wavelands are sexy. Aerial momentum is a huge part of Ike as well. Run forward and jump and watch Ike soar through the skies like a blue haired bird of freedom. When you're flying around you threaten a lot of space with the possibility of Nair and other stuff (RAR Bair/tomahawk grabs). That being said though, Ike is very punishable if he wiffs. So never overcommit.

Ike kind of lends himself to a passive-aggressive play. You don't want to act most of the time unless you know you're going to be able to get in (nothing is really safe on shield/ lots of end lag on moves) but once you get in, you can generally stay in your opponent's face for a good long time. So play it safe, but always make people feel threatened by Ike's range.

Grab grab grab. Grab a lot. Whenever you see an opportunity to grab, do it. Ike gets a lot out of grabs. You'll never regret getting a grab. When I played with mudkyp (a pretty good Melee Peach in Chicago) he said I grabbed him with Ike more than he'd ever been grabbed with any character. I guess I'm a little grab happy, but it's so good. Learn to QD>JC grab. Learn jab/jab-jab>grab mixups. And learn the follow-ups off of throws like metroid said.

And don't forget. Always fight for your friends.

 

[DarkDeity15]

I'd recommend practicing QD tricks (old but still relevant) and messing around with throw trajectories in Training Mode; Ike can get a huge profit from grabs at particular %s when the opponent misses their DI, so being familiar with follow-ups is extremely helpful. However, keeping it simple and constantly juggling opponents with UAir/NAir also works if you prefer to keep opponents in bad positions.

Go and watch metroid's Ike lesson video on Windy City Smash's channel on youtube (I'd link it, but I'm at work). C'mon @ metroid1117 you gotta promote your work dude It's from 3.02, but Ike didn't change much in 3.5 so the things he says in that video are still relevant, and metroid's understanding and insight into the character is always awesome.

QD tricks are useful, but don't become one of those guys who uses QD too much. If QD becomes your main movement option it will only work on people who are unfamiliar with the matchup. They'll catch on eventually, and then you've taught yourself to rely on something that you will get punished for often. No bueno.

As far as movement goes, Ike's actually not too shabby. His run speed isn't that great obviously, but his DD and wavedash are pretty decent, and his wavelands are sexy. Aerial momentum is a huge part of Ike as well. Run forward and jump and watch Ike soar through the skies like a blue haired bird of freedom. When you're flying around you threaten a lot of space with the possibility of Nair and other stuff (RAR Bair/tomahawk grabs). That being said though, Ike is very punishable if he wiffs. So never overcommit.

Ike kind of lends himself to a passive-aggressive play. You don't want to act most of the time unless you know you're going to be able to get in (nothing is really safe on shield/ lots of end lag on moves) but once you get in, you can generally stay in your opponent's face for a good long time. So play it safe, but always make people feel threatened by Ike's range.

Grab grab grab. Grab a lot. Whenever you see an opportunity to grab, do it. Ike gets a lot out of grabs. You'll never regret getting a grab. When I played with mudkyp (a pretty good Melee Peach in Chicago) he said I grabbed him with Ike more than he'd ever been grabbed with any character. I guess I'm a little grab happy, but it's so good. Learn to QD>JC grab. Learn jab/jab-jab>grab mixups. And learn the follow-ups off of throws like metroid said.

And don't forget. Always fight for your friends.

You guys really do fight for your friends lol. Thanks a ton. This is amazing advice and I'll be sure to follow it. In fact, I'm copying this to my clipboard and pasting it in my memo app for future reference. And I know all about Ike's QD>JC tricks already. I've always had a bit of trouble QD>JC grabbing though. It hurts my fingers if they aren't in the right place. Off to get that muscle memory down then. Thanks again. I'll be fighting for you guys lol.

 

[Starfall11]

Definitely use Y > Z for JC Grab out of QD. I struggled with it at first, but it's very rewarding when you get it down. You can also pivot grab out of QD, but use it sparingly.

Learn Ike's setups too. Like Fthrow into JC Grab on certain characters. Or QD > Usmash depending on how they tech. Ike has a lot of great tech chase options as long as you DD and stay out of range of the counter attack. I've found abusing Nairs and dash dancing to be incredibly useful with Ike at close range. Keeps you from spamming QD as well, so keep that in mind.

And yes, fight for your friends. As long as you can fight for them, you can win!

 

[Frakture]

Did you guys know that Ike can JC QD from the ledge? You can use it to put out invincible grabs or escape almost any edgeguard.

 

[SpiderMad]

Did you guys know that Ike can JC QD from the ledge? You can use it to put out invincible grabs or escape almost any edgeguard.

Magus made a post on it somewhere, probably on Smashmods

Found http://www.smashmods.com/forum/threads/ike-general-discussion.3854/page-5#post-77978

 

[Frakture]

Oh, OK. I've just never seen any Ike use it before and it's a really effective ledge option from my experience, so I wasn't sure if nobody knew about it.

 

[SpiderMad]

Oh, OK. I've just never seen any Ike use it before and it's a really effective ledge option from my experience, so I wasn't sure if nobody knew about it.

Tell me which of his aerials can Autocancel in a SH?

And which you can jump out of in a SH?

 

[Frakture]

All of his aerials Autocancel if done frame one, and only bair can be jumped out of if performed within two frames after leaving the ground.

 

[SpiderMad]

What are the exact lenience for each aerial's Autocancel in a SH? You're testing with the aerial done on the very first airborne frame right?

 

[Frakture]

Fair is frame perfect, I don't know the rest from memory.

Yes the aerials begin as soon as he leaves the ground.

 

[SpiderMad]

How hard would you rate performing this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcTZ8l7gjIQ

What are the frame leniencys for each action? Given you get the Bair hitbox out.

 

[Frakture]

In an actual match or just in practice? I could do it but it would take some tries.

 

[SpiderMad]

In an actual match or just in practice? I could do it but it would take some tries.

See how many tries it takes, I can't distinguish how humanly possible people can do it; to ever say accomplish it twice in a row

 

[Frakture]

I managed to do it after about 35 minutes. It probably could be done with some consistency after enough practice, but I doubt it will be used in actual gameplay.

 

[SpiderMad]

I managed to do it after about 35 minutes. It probably could be done with some consistency after enough practice, but I doubt it will be used in actual gameplay.

Thanks for your dedication. That's been the big question in my mind is how consistent people can get with some of this stuff, because there's a lot of these; though this one seems to be the hardest I could find.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knNK-fLBNps
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5SEGAHiDz8&list=PLovBMkMLex7xhb2XjvWL1l40KnxhgwIrN
Stuff like this could theoretically be used to shield pressure, or otherwise possibly combo a person

Actually I should make a video sometime again of this stuff

 

[Frakture]

That could be even more difficult in a match because of the different hitlags from the different parts of Ike's sword.

 

[SpiderMad]

That could be even more difficult in a match because of the different hitlags from the different parts of Ike's sword.

How many frames does each often vary?

How have you just registered Friday and know a lot?

 

[Frakture]

It depends on the move. The damage outputs are different for the tip, middle, and hilt of the sword, but the biggest effect comes from the hitlag modifiers. Tippers have a 0.7x modifier, middle has a 0.9x, and the hilt has a 1.1x.

I just registered friday but I've been playing for a few months and like frame data.

 

[SpiderMad]

I thought all the modifiers were removed except for the tip having reduced, is the hilt close to just as safe on shield as the middle then?

So you lurked for 3 months, somehow finding the rare good posts on Frame data?

 

[Frakture]

I haven't frame tested it, but I have looked at the frame data and that's what it says.

The hilt is as or less safe on shield as the middle frame-wise, but the middle is probably more safe anyways because of distance.

I checked Ike's frame data thread, as well as checking the frame data myself using Brawlbox.

 

[SpiderMad]

Also to go back your QD statement, is this application new to you?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3c_iPK38R1o
regarding the first thing done in the video, QD WJ QD B-reverse giving you facing towards the stage momentum over QD'ing back out away from the stage; you could pull off the same with Eruption/Counter.

 

[Frakture]

I use the wavebounce when I want to WJ QD onto the stage. I've messed around with onstage b-reversals, but I haven't found any use for them that isn't jank.

WJ b-reversed eruption may be situationally useful, and counter always is.

As for early bair, woundn't it be more useful after a hit to QD? There is 0 landing lag when charging quickdraw, and you could act sooner than a waveland.

 

[ZiggaWaTT]

I think ive seen your tag before @ F Frakture you in SoCal?

 

[Frakture]

Yeah I'm SoCal.

 

[ZiggaWaTT]

Ah yes I remember now. I saw you play in some of Smashing in SoCal's youtube videos awhile back. Solid Ike play man

 

[Frakture]

Thanks a lot. I'm trying to improve my neutral game right now, because right now I'm more combo and edgeguard based.

 

[Leirkov]

Frakture that sounds like me, my neutral is pretty lacking but I generally feel like my combos and follow ups are solid. I love frame data as well but haven't fully tested 3.5's debug with Ike. I have some questions based on the hitlag etc modifier you posted above.

Since nair is said by many (DJ Nintendo in particular) to be Ike's best move, how do you propose juggling based on the 3 hitboxes would be optimized? I'm trying to relate this to how M2K perfected Marth hitboxes between tippers and sourspots to extend combos.

I feel (from personal experience) that medium nair seems to be the safest with decent knockback/damage. Easiest to extend nair juggles with? Also since nair is fast and covers so much space it is best to use it as a space threat as well correct? And is tipper fair worth spacing with? I feel if you space the active frames perfectly it seems like a protective wall.

Lastly, the multipliers are why certain areas are better to hit with correct? Getting a hilt fair would do the most, but it is also the most risky?

 

[Frakture]

The tip of nair is the safest because of the distance, but the middle is far better in terms of juggling. It does more damage, has more knockback and hitstun, and sends at a higher angle than tippered nair, which makes juggles easier. Fair can be used to space but I find it to be too slow and lacking in active frames. Nair is better to space with not only because it is faster and lasts longer, but also because it comboes better. The hitlag modifiers really only affect the timing of moves and how safe aerials are on shield. Grounded attacks have too much cooldown to matter, but things like perfectly timed tippered aerials can be made fairly safe on shield. For example, a fresh tippered bair, when landed the frame after contact will be -0, and will deplete about a third of the opponent's shield. This is because the hitlag modifier lets Ike out of hitlag three frames before the opponent.

 

[Leirkov]

Okay. So in the vain of hitlag modifiers, what would a medium bair do on shield? And hilt? Shield mechanics in smash have very much confused me the most.

 

[Frakture]

Shieldstun is determined by the formula (damage + 4.45)/2.35 rounded down. The medium and hilt hitboxes of bair do more damage and would cause more shieldstun. However, the formula for hitlag is (damage/3 + 3) rounded down times the hitlag modifier rounded down (the hitlag multiplier only modifies the lag Ike experiences. The opponent's hitlag is unchanged.) So since the middle of Ike's bair does 15 damage unstaled, it would do 8 frames of shieldstun, make the opponent undergo 8 frames of hitlag, and make Ike experience 7 hitlag frames. This means that the opponent would be 9 frames behind Ike, but since Ike has to undergo 9 frames of L-canceled landing lag, and it takes him at least one frame to hit the ground, the move is -1 at best. Bair hilt is also -1.

 

[Leirkov]

That makes so much more sense, thank you. So by this then, tippers are always the safest shield poke option because you'll generally have more favorable frames. Slowly it's making more sense, haha.

 

[MLGF]

When all the QD reads and grab combos are done, how does one improve the little defensive options Ike has?
I'm trying to cover bases and this is all I feel I have left.
I know these suck, but damn, gotta be something I can do.

 

[Starfall11]

When all the QD reads and grab combos are done, how does one improve the little defensive options Ike has?
I'm trying to cover bases and this is all I feel I have left.
I know these suck, but damn, gotta be something I can do.

Ike has no defensive options. There is nothing we can do... Might as well accept it.

With that said, I'll give a little advice, haha.
1. Get really good at DI. It'll help you escape combos and pressure when necessary.
2. Keep your distance. When Ike is in shield stun, he's pretty much a sitting duck. Space well by using dodges, wavesdashes, short hops, and dash dancing.
3. Maybe Jab out of shield. Not sure how great it is to be honest.

I find myself keeping my distance and staying out of my opponent's range most of the time. Be evasive and wait for those opportunities. Sorry if that doesn't help at all.

 

[Starfall11]

Sorry for the double post, just didn't want this one to be overlooked.

I've mastered most of Ike's tech, and I'm so much better in neutral lately. At least against the other swordsman.

But how do I perform DACUS with Ike? I slowed down the speed to 1/4. Use C-stick diagonal downward to initiate a dash attack and tried to cancel with a jump, and it did nothing. Is there something I'm missing? I was using claw grip and tried hitting Y as soon as the dash attack initiated. Is this still possible in 3.5?

 

[Frakture]

You don't cancel the dash attack with a jump, you cancel it with an up-smash. Dash to C-stick down to up on the control stick to attack (or z).

Also jab out of shield comes out frame 18, has no disjoint, and can be crouch canceled even if the opponent isn't crouching. Grab out of shield is better in every way.

 

[Starfall11]

Yes, shield grabbing is much better. I was more thinking if they're out of range. Thanks for the tip. So I just smash C-stick diagonal down, then smash c-stick up? That seems remarkably simple.

 

[Frakture]

DACUS is very simple; it's just a small frame window. I personally use c-stick down to control stick up + z, so I'm not entirely sure if c-stick up works or not, but I don't think it does. The first c-stick input doesn't have to be diagonal down, just down.

The ranges of grab and jab are pretty similar, and if they really are that far away it would probably be better to wavedash back and reset to neutral. Incidentally, wavedashing OOS has only one more frame of commitment than just releasing shield, so wavedashing back and jabbing to catch an approach might work. I wouldn't do it too often though.