Ike Social Thread

[arcnormal]

Yes, shield grabbing is much better. I was more thinking if they're out of range. Thanks for the tip. So I just smash C-stick diagonal down, then smash c-stick up? That seems remarkably simple.

I personally do it the way Metroid does it; I switch to claw grip and do cstick down + up A. Since you won't be DACUSing that much you just consciously switch to claw if you want to.

 

[WhinoTheRhino]

I personally do it the way Metroid does it; I switch to claw grip and do cstick down + up A. Since you won't be DACUSing that much you just consciously switch to claw if you want to.

Same, thank you based Metroid for teaching all of us Ike scrubs how to DACUS.

 

[WhinoTheRhino]

Yo guys, let's discuss control configurations. What do you use? I've heard some good stuff about Metroid setting attack to c-stick, and I tried that but it didn't work out for me. However, I recently switched to Z for jump (I have x=grab, y=footstool, and I removed the spring from R since I only wavedash with R) and I highly recommend it to everyone else. To be honest, I thought it would be extremely difficult/annoying to adjust to Z jump but it didn't take long at all and I was pretty much completely used to it after about an hour. Seriously, Z jump is better than Y/X jump in I think every way possible. Anyways, what other controls do you guys use?

 

[Moy]

Yo guys, let's discuss control configurations. What do you use? I've heard some good stuff about Metroid setting attack to c-stick, and I tried that but it didn't work out for me. However, I recently switched to Z for jump (I have x=grab, y=footstool, and I removed the spring from R since I only wavedash with R) and I highly recommend it to everyone else. To be honest, I thought it would be extremely difficult/annoying to adjust to Z jump but it didn't take long at all and I was pretty much completely used to it after about an hour. Seriously, Z jump is better than Y/X jump in I think every way possible. Anyways, what other controls do you guys use?

I used to set R to attack in order to DACUS easier without having to claw, but stopped when I realized I didn't use it nearly as much as I thought I would.

Now that you can wavedash out of shield without letting go of the trigger like in Melee, I use R to shield much more now. Coming from Melee, the default controls feel the best. I don't even turn off tap jump, since I JC grab with hitting up on the control stick.

 

[arcnormal]

I use default controls with c-stick to attack so it doesn't mess up my Melee. The only difference with c-stick to attack for me is no fastfalling during dair so I can walkoff dair or ledgehop dair to hit recovering opponents easier. I still do tilts the normal way.

 

[Chef2]

@ F Frakture I'm curious about these tipped hitlag modifiers you mentioned. I read in the 2.5 patch notes that all modifiers were removed from 2.1 except for the tip, yet when I asked about it somewhere in this massive thread, @metroid1117 told me they were entirely gone, tip included. Can anyone give an unambiguous, concrete answer about the modifiers?

Also thank you so much Frakture for finding that elusive hitlag formula, I knew it wasn't the same as shield stun.

And boys I'm with you about everything feeling solid with ike except for my neutral. But after playing ol Ike for so long...I can't help but feel like Ike's neutral is maybe just innately junk. Yes, it's compensated for by a good punish/combo game, but as myself and fellow smashers play more and we all improve, there are a lot less opportunities to punish. People stop throwing out unsafe moves completely, easily run/block/dodge Ike's telegraphed attacks, and ike struggles at making his own openings. Slow ass run, a fast dash offset by being soooo short (transition from dash to run is like less than a battlefield platform...I never understood why they shortened his dash->run transition from 2.1, it was mediocre at best) moves with few active frames/lots of end lag and Ike's big frame makes him a big target. His waveland->jab/grab can be surprising but I'm losing mileage on it vs regulars at my tourneys. This last tourney I think my most neutral hits were from ftilt (it's amazing how often throwing out ftilt at a blade/tip range nets you a hit, and it's damn hard for most characters to punish when blocked as long as your out of shield grab range) however that doesn't get me anything but a bit of damage.

I dunno that was a bit of a rant but my neutral feels so weak these days. Just dash dancing virtually in place, hoping my spaced aerials don't get blocked, hoping my empty hops don't get read, hoping my rare QD shenanigans makes an opening and praying my opponent does something punishable. I'm losing faith in ike fellas! (I have been messing around with wolf and my god, the movement and freedom to approach is like cocaine after ike...last tourney I even decided to switch to wolf if I lost game 1 and I beat a few roadblocks and placed my highest ever at that tourney...) I really don't wanna switch mains tho, reignite my ike friends!

 

[Leirkov]

@ F Frakture I'm curious about these tipped hitlag modifiers you mentioned. I read in the 2.5 patch notes that all modifiers were removed from 2.1 except for the tip, yet when I asked about it somewhere in this massive thread, @metroid1117 told me they were entirely gone, tip included. Can anyone give an unambiguous, concrete answer about the modifiers?

Also thank you so much Frakture for finding that elusive hitlag formula, I knew it wasn't the same as shield stun.

And boys I'm with you about everything feeling solid with ike except for my neutral. But after playing ol Ike for so long...I can't help but feel like Ike's neutral is maybe just innately junk. Yes, it's compensated for by a good punish/combo game, but as myself and fellow smashers play more and we all improve, there are a lot less opportunities to punish. People stop throwing out unsafe moves completely, easily run/block/dodge Ike's telegraphed attacks, and ike struggles at making his own openings. Slow *** run, a fast dash offset by being soooo short (transition from dash to run is like less than a battlefield platform...I never understood why they shortened his dash->run transition from 2.1, it was mediocre at best) moves with few active frames/lots of end lag and Ike's big frame makes him a big target. His waveland->jab/grab can be surprising but I'm losing mileage on it vs regulars at my tourneys. This last tourney I think my most neutral hits were from ftilt (it's amazing how often throwing out ftilt at a blade/tip range nets you a hit, and it's damn hard for most characters to punish when blocked as long as your out of shield grab range) however that doesn't get me anything but a bit of damage.

I dunno that was a bit of a rant but my neutral feels so weak these days. Just dash dancing virtually in place, hoping my spaced aerials don't get blocked, hoping my empty hops don't get read, hoping my rare QD shenanigans makes an opening and praying my opponent does something punishable. I'm losing faith in ike fellas! (I have been messing around with wolf and my god, the movement and freedom to approach is like cocaine after ike...last tourney I even decided to switch to wolf if I lost game 1 and I beat a few roadblocks and placed my highest ever at that tourney...) I really don't wanna switch mains tho, reignite my ike friends!

Yeah. You summed up how I feel about Ike. He truly feels limited because there's really not a lot of variety in what you do, his QD is good but the nerf to it prevented a lot of mixup potential from an already unsafe neutral option going into 3.5 (I'm not familiar with anything pre-3.0). I liked figuring out this grab combos and juggles, getting the right hitbox of nair etc for juggles. But the neutral is all that really matters.

I originally left Lucario as my main and switched him to secondary to try and make something with Ike but I might make the switch back. Still absolutely love the PM iteration of Ike but man.. neutral. Ugh.

 

[Chef2]

Yeah. You summed up how I feel about Ike. He truly feels limited because there's really not a lot of variety in what you do, his QD is good but the nerf to it prevented a lot of mixup potential from an already unsafe neutral option going into 3.5 (I'm not familiar with anything pre-3.0). I liked figuring out this grab combos and juggles, getting the right hitbox of nair etc for juggles. But the neutral is all that really matters.

I originally left Lucario as my main and switched him to secondary to try and make something with Ike but I might make the switch back. Still absolutely love the PM iteration of Ike but man.. neutral. Ugh.

Well I'm glad you agree and didn't insta flame for down talking ike - I love the guy but yes his neutral just feels more and more crippling. Granted, I'm far from perfect and I'm sure with hardcore practice I could get better in neutral using optimized movement patterns to force punishes and promote positioning... Well heck a guy can always get better but I feel pretty close to the ceiling. And I feel like other characters have higher ceilings with greater reward, meaning more time into them will eventually be more rewarding (like spacies).

Ultimately, it could just be I love rush down characters. I used to play a super aggressive QD heavy ike, which worked when the game was new, but people figured out how to punish aggressive ike. So I switched to a more patient DJ Nintendo Ike, got more success but god dam neutral is so dull.

 

[Frakture]

The hitlag modifiers are in Ike's frame data, and, when I tested it in debug mode, it seems to be right. However, it appears I was wrong about tippered aerials because when I tested it, Ike and the opponent left hitlag at the same time. So while the hitlag multipliers do cause notable effects, they don't appear to offer any frame advantages.

 

[Chef2]

The hitlag modifiers are in Ike's frame data, and, when I tested it in debug mode, it seems to be right. However, it appears I was wrong about tippered aerials because when I tested it, Ike and the opponent left hitlag at the same time. So while the hitlag multipliers do cause notable effects, they don't appear to offer any frame advantages.

Ah okay makes sense. I kinda figured ike didn't have 0 aerials on shield, never felt like it. I think I grinded some numbers a few pages back and his best is hilt Bair being like -8 or something. That was before modifiers though, and your correct hitlag formula.

 

[Frakture]

All right, there were some things bothering me but I've done some testing and I think I've figured most of it out. Turns out Ike's hitlag multipliers affect both you and your opponent when your moves hit them, but they only affect you when you hit their shield. Also, I tested Ike's tippered bair on shield and it turns out it's actually +1. The middle and hilt are both -0.

 

[MLGF]

Ike's neutral is fine, you gotta be patient and never stop moving.

In other news, Ike:Link is still stupidly infuriating. Need to find a new counterpick because MK can't be a jank killer anymore thanks to dair and down b nerfs.

 

[arcnormal]

Yeah. You summed up how I feel about Ike. He truly feels limited because there's really not a lot of variety in what you do, his QD is good but the nerf to it prevented a lot of mixup potential from an already unsafe neutral option going into 3.5 (I'm not familiar with anything pre-3.0). I liked figuring out this grab combos and juggles, getting the right hitbox of nair etc for juggles. But the neutral is all that really matters.

I originally left Lucario as my main and switched him to secondary to try and make something with Ike but I might make the switch back. Still absolutely love the PM iteration of Ike but man.. neutral. Ugh.

I really don't think a Lucario switch would benefit you in neutral because Lucario's neutral is pretty bad. Definitely worse than Ike's, as any aerial you go for is not only short range but can be crouch canceled which basically leaves you with either a dash attack or upsmash to counter that. Ike at least has crazy momentum, so you can cross up nair, and you can stay out of your opponents range with tippered fairs.

 

[Leirkov]

I really don't think a Lucario switch would benefit you in neutral because Lucario's neutral is pretty bad. Definitely worse than Ike's, as any aerial you go for is not only short range but can be crouch canceled which basically leaves you with either a dash attack or upsmash to counter that. Ike at least has crazy momentum, so you can cross up nair, and you can stay out of your opponents range with tippered fairs.

Lucario's neutral isn't quite as bad, there's much more versatility for mixups and more rewarding approach options. Also, it's dtilt, utilt and usmash that counter crouch cancelling. Shieldpoke with Lucario also allows instant down- b cancels for safety or offensively side-b command grab on shield.

Lucario was my original main so it's not like it's a drastic switch. I've spent about the same time on both characters.

 

[Chef2]

All right, there were some things bothering me but I've done some testing and I think I've figured most of it out. Turns out Ike's hitlag multipliers affect both you and your opponent when your moves hit them, but they only affect you when you hit their shield. Also, I tested Ike's tippered bair on shield and it turns out it's actually +1. The middle and hilt are both -0.

Ah at last, some clarity on this! So ike always had hitlag modifiers, they just took out the shield stun modifiers so he didnt have positive moves on shield. Good to know! Thanks

 

[Chef2]

Lucario's neutral isn't quite as bad, there's much more versatility for mixups and more rewarding approach options. Also, it's dtilt, utilt and usmash that counter crouch cancelling. Shieldpoke with Lucario also allows instant down- b cancels for safety or offensively side-b command grab on shield.

Lucario was my original main so it's not like it's a drastic switch. I've spent about the same time on both characters.

I'd have to agree lucario has a way better neutral. Yes he lacks the range, but makes up for that with faster attacks, faster speed, less end lag, a down b to bail from bad situations, fantastic approaches with aura powered down b and up b, a command grab, shield pressure, etc.

But he has nowhere near the kill power of burly ol' Ike.

 

[MLGF]

You guys have to be joking when you say Lucario has a better neutral then Ike. Ike's neutral may not be amazing, but Lucario's is probably one of the worst in the game.

 

[Chef2]

I don't play Lucario at a high level but in friendlies I don't have too much trouble getting in. Less than ike anyways. Granted you don't get many but aura enhanced down b/up b approaches feel so godly. Projectiles are nice too. Again, this is friendlies, I'll take your word his neutral goes to junk at competitive play. I could see someone like marth make Lucarios neutral look hopeless. Easily wall him out and floaty enough to make for a tough finish.

Neutral and ike aside, I never liked Lucario just cause I can't kill anyone for the life of me. UpSmash feels janky and laggy, fsmash slow and laggy, dsmash weak and short, spirit bombs too easy to dodge, nair is okay but tough to set up and the spinning hitbox makes it weird to toss in neutral. Oh and that aura enhanced side B super face punch is sweet but tough to set up, laggy and needs aura.

 

[Frakture]

Ike's hitlag modifiers control how much hitstun there is for each hitbox. I'm pretty sure that this is intended for aesthetics because when you hit someone, there is no frame advantage either way. However, on shield, the opponent experiences normal hitlag while Ike experiences modified hitlag. For example, if you hit someone with a tippered bair it will do 12 damage fresh. On a normal move, this would cause 7 frames of hitstun, but, because of the multipliers, both Ike and the opponent are frozen for only 4 frames. If the attack hits a shield, Ike will freeze for 4 frames while the opponent freezes for the normal 7, giving you a 3 frame advantage.

 

[Chef2]

Ike's hitlag modifiers control how much hitstun there is for each hitbox. I'm pretty sure that this is intended for aesthetics because when you hit someone, there is no frame advantage either way. However, on shield, the opponent experiences normal hitlag while Ike experiences modified hitlag. For example, if you hit someone with a tippered bair it will do 12 damage fresh. On a normal move, this would cause 7 frames of hitstun, but, because of the multipliers, both Ike and the opponent are frozen for only 4 frames. If the attack hits a shield, Ike will freeze for 4 frames while the opponent freezes for the normal 7, giving you a 3 frame advantage.

I appreciate you continuously clarifying this for me Frakture, thanks again! I use a wiimote for now so can't check frame advantages in debug mode, just with the formulas.

So last question here, does the Ike only reduced hitlag on shield apply to tippered attacks only or all hitboxes?

 

[Leirkov]

You guys have to be joking when you say Lucario has a better neutral then Ike. Ike's neutral may not be amazing, but Lucario's is probably one of the worst in the game.

Yes, Lucario's face-value neutral is pretty ass (among the worst in the game), but he has way more options to cover that weakness and play around it. Ike has QD which is more unsafe in neutral. Also up/downB cancels are very reliable and safe approaches.

But yeah. Lucario aside. Chef, I think your question is all hitboxes. But I'm sure Frakture knows 100%.

What is the safest option after crossing up shield? (Back facing opponent) I find crossup nairs land me in bad positions at times.

 

[Frakture]

Ike experiences .7x the hitlag when he hits with the tip on shield. Connecting with the middle (or arms) results in .9x the hitlag, and the hilt causes 1.1x. However, because the hitlag is rounded down, hitting with the hilt will not cause a frame disadvantage unless the attack is very powerful, like a smash attack. Ike and the opponent will simply leave hitlag at the same time.

When you say crossing up shield, are you asking what to do after empty hopping past a shielding opponent, which aerial to do when jumping past an aerial opponent, or something else?

 

[Leirkov]

Ike experiences .7x the hitlag when he hits with the tip on shield. Connecting with the middle (or arms) results in .9x the hitlag, and the hilt causes 1.1x. However, because the hitlag is rounded down, hitting with the hilt will not cause a frame disadvantage unless the attack is very powerful, like a smash attack. Ike and the opponent will simply leave hitlag at the same time.

When you say crossing up shield, are you asking what to do after empty hopping past a shielding opponent, which aerial to do when jumping past an aerial opponent, or something else?

Specifically in Nair/Bair crossups, so SH Nair above them, hit their shield, land behind them. Obviously I'm gonna move, but I feel like if this is my safe option then I'm not following that option up correctly. Generally I'll continue dashing forward and try to either pivot (if I have plenty of stage room), or with little room to work with I'll QD past them and WD/WL out of it for positioning.

 

[Chef2]

Specifically in Nair/Bair crossups, so SH Nair above them, hit their shield, land behind them. Obviously I'm gonna move, but I feel like if this is my safe option then I'm not following that option up correctly. Generally I'll continue dashing forward and try to either pivot (if I have plenty of stage room), or with little room to work with I'll QD past them and WD/WL out of it for positioning.

That question really depends on the character you just crossed up. I'd say
1) can they get to you quickly OoS? Like fox Wavedashes out then dashes into a shine or luigi Wavedash, IC, etc. Id probably just run, roll back to the centre when they approach, spot dodge or if you can time it, pivot grab/jab.
2)They're a character who wants space more than you do and can't reach you OoS. Snake, samus and link come to mind. They can't get to you after the nair (unless you're too close, in which case spot dodge or roll is your best bet), so they'll probably retreat to plant mines or start a projectile wall. I'd try to get back in their face, maybe even chase with QD.
3)They can't get to you, but want to. Lucario, wario, dk, etc. Here you essentially have more time. You could pivot ftilt, grab, jab, whatever. Id avoid aerials though, they'll have a frame advantage and are probably looking to approach with an aerial, and smack you before you smack them.

I dunno in all cases Id avoid trying to jump back over them with an aerial, as they'll have the advantage. Prepare for them to approach, know how fast they can do it, and react accordingly.

Last note if you are super close to them after the nair, you'll probably just want to spot dodge. Unless they read that and punish but hey that's part of the mind games of smash.

 

[Leirkov]

Yeah, that's a general unspecific question so it's hard to answer. My bad.

I generally play vs. characters at my locals such as Ness, Peach, Zelda, DK, Fox. I go to another weekly, many people run Marth/Ike, Luigi, ROB. So assuming these characters in the scenario of a shield crossup.

Most everyone has good OoS, so if I land in a bad spot and forced to shield, I'll probably be punished. Would SHFFL > pivot grab be good on crossup shield hit? I don't have the exact frames from Frakture's modifiers or anything, but this seems like a better option that I personally haven't considered if there's a frame advantage on shield hit. This is assuming I land within range to be punished OoS if I'm slow.

 

[Chef2]

Yeah, that's a general unspecific question so it's hard to answer. My bad.

I generally play vs. characters at my locals such as Ness, Peach, Zelda, DK, Fox. I go to another weekly, many people run Marth/Ike, Luigi, ROB. So assuming these characters in the scenario of a shield crossup.

Most everyone has good OoS, so if I land in a bad spot and forced to shield, I'll probably be punished. Would SHFFL > pivot grab be good on crossup shield hit? I don't have the exact frames from Frakture's modifiers or anything, but this seems like a better option that I personally haven't considered if there's a frame advantage on shield hit. This is assuming I land within range to be punished OoS if I'm slow.

I'm 99% sure Fraktures frame advantage is just that, it doesn't factor in l-canceling. So if you tipper Bair a guy and have a 3 frame advantage, you still have 9 frames of landing lag with an l-cancel, so really ike is at -6. That's also if you land on the frame right after the move connects, which isn't always the case.

If you cross up nair/Bair a guy, your gonna be at a frame disadvantage if you touch the ground. Generally, the best thing to do in a poor situation is to get into a good one, instead of trying to fight at a disadvantage. Anticipate what follow up your opponent will do, realizing they won't have time to drop shield and pivot grab you, and react accordingly. Get back to center stage and a better neutral.

But don't be scared to try an occasional grab/jab either, people react slow/poorly sometimes.

 

[Frakture]

You will never be able to punish someone when you hit their shield just from frame data. They will have to make an additional mistake afterwards so you can punish that. The point of hitting a shield with the sword's tip is to keep more distance and to make it a little safer to disengage. If you want to cross up a shield, I wouldn't SHFFL, instead, I would move as far away as possible while still in the air, kind of like Falcon. By doing this, you can escape bad situations and reset to neutral. If you do find yourself near the opponent after landing, the best you can hope for is escaping unpunished. Most charecters' backwards OoS options are aerials, meaning you can probably just shield the hit and roll or wavedash away from there. Everything you can do in this situation is risky, so I would focus on staying out of it as best you can. On a side note, you said that when you don't have mush stage you try to QD through them? Instead of that, try going for the ledge and ledgedrop > DJ > QD > JC > whatever. If you time it correctly, Ike can land on the stage from an aerial QD, and then jump cancel it. If the opponent closes in, you can just QD through them with invincibility, and if they back off, then just waveland on the stage and reset to neutral.

Chef, the frame advantage does factor in l-canceling, but it also factors in shieldstun. A tippered bair gives you three frames of hitlag advantage, and seven frames of shieldstun. 3 + 7 - 9 = 1. You are right in saying that this is only when landing the next frame, so Ike is generally at a disadvantage.

 

[Chef2]

Chef, the frame advantage does factor in l-canceling, but it also factors in shieldstun. A tippered bair gives you three frames of hitlag advantage, and seven frames of shieldstun. 3 + 7 - 9 = 1. You are right in saying that this is only when landing the next frame, so Ike is generally at a disadvantage.

Oh damn that's why I said 99%, thanks!

And good advice about the aerials on shield yeah just carry that momentum far away and reset the neutral.

 

[Leirkov]

Figures. I wanted to avoid resetting to neutral. But I guess that would probably just be smarter.

 

[Chef2]

Figures. I wanted to avoid resetting to neutral. But I guess that would probably just be smarter.

You can get free grabs n' jabs from aerials on shield. Follow these easy steps:
1)Find an old download for Project M 2.1
2)Pick Ike
3)Mindlessly use aerials on shield and grab for free!
Bonus step: Enjoy the most uber god tier Ike this world has ever known.

 

[Leirkov]

Both of my mains seemed to be God tier in the old 2.1 etc versions ;-;

So, let me paint a broad question. If you have been applying pressure but reset to neutral (IE: Shield crossup -> reset to neutral), really what should you be looking for then? I love keeping pressure on someone to control options but re-winning neutral with Ike is a struggle. I tend to play from the ledge a lot because I'm comfortable doing a few planks / wavelands (and other mixups) to safely get stage control back, but in this case I'd be close to center stage or a little off-center upon shield crossup, so there's no clear advantage.

 

[NWRL]

Treat Ike's neutral like Ganons. Ike has way more options than Ganon but they are both looking to bait mistakes.

Ike isn't rushdown. He's like a mix between Ganon and Falcon in terms of playstyle

 

[Leirkov]

Treat Ike's neutral like Ganons. Ike has way more options than Ganon but they are both looking to bait mistakes.

Ike isn't rushdown. He's like a mix between Ganon and Falcon in terms of playstyle

I had a comparison of Falcon/Marth in my head, but I like the Ganon example too. Friend irl plays a very keepaway Ganon (such as fade back fair). That's a good way to look at it, just watched the latest DJ Nintendo vs Gallo match and I noticed DJ punishing a lot of Gallo's aggression.

 

[NWRL]

Much like Brawl, Ike's jab is an important part of his moveset and I see a lot of Ikes not utilizing it to its fullest potential.

Ike has a jab like Ganons (used to stuff dumb approaches and set up frame traps) but you can mix it up like Falcons (jab-> grab, jab->jab->grab, jab jab jab, jab->dsmash)

I could go on about the things you can do with jabs but I'm at work.

 

[grandpappy]

Jab>DSmash is something I've never seen or used, but it sounds cool. Could catch some people off guard with bad DI and put them in a bad position.

I've gotten in a bad habit of being WAY too aggressive, and lately I've been getting punished really hard for it. Need to take a step back and work on my neutral.

 

[NWRL]

It's a risky mixup but it can and will ruin someone's day.

I have the same habit but then I realized the fun of controlling your opponents movement, through pressure and sheer fear. Ike is scary if you play him patient

 

[Chef2]

@ Leirkov I think you'll have to accept you can't pressure with ike. Not shield pressure like spacies and Lucario. I think the most shield damage Ike does is from landing a rogue fsmash. Outside of that, I usually follow up spaced fairs with an ftilt, it's not a true link but it takes out half of most shields.

Ike just has too large of windows to be punished to play aggro. Even a QD -> WD has like 30 frames commitment.

I slowed down my ike a few months back and have been getting much more success. My gameplan is usually get centre stage, then pressure them into something silly and punish. I feel like centre stage is huge for Ike, his short but quick dash doesn't bait much over larger distances, and Ragnell feels way bigger swinging down half a stage compared to full stage.

 

[Leirkov]

I figured. I love being able to get huge punishes off and I probably cornered myself into that mindset/playstyle when Ike isn't a super safe aggressor.

 

[Starfall11]

@ Leirkov I think you'll have to accept you can't pressure with ike. Not shield pressure like spacies and Lucario. I think the most shield damage Ike does is from landing a rogue fsmash. Outside of that, I usually follow up spaced fairs with an ftilt, it's not a true link but it takes out half of most shields.

Ike just has too large of windows to be punished to play aggro. Even a QD -> WD has like 30 frames commitment.

I slowed down my ike a few months back and have been getting much more success. My gameplan is usually get centre stage, then pressure them into something silly and punish. I feel like centre stage is huge for Ike, his short but quick dash doesn't bait much over larger distances, and Ragnell feels way bigger swinging down half a stage compared to full stage.

I agree with you there. I'd hate to say it, but I feel it's best to just wait for an opening to go in. He's primarily a punish character. With that said, I'm still very new to Ike and I feel I am too quickdraw heavy.

Anyways, I find his best neutral option is fishing for hit confirms with well spaced Nairs/Fairs. If you space them well and play L-cancel, they usually can't be punished. By my main MU experience is against the fire emblem characters since all of my friends play them. I'm gradually mastering DACUS now.

 

[Commander]

Same, thank you based Metroid for teaching all of us Ike scrubs how to DACUS.

This is actually not necessary as of 3.5. In 3.0 Ike has a two frame window to DACUS but using grab for it shortened the window to 1 frame. In 3.5 grab no longer shortens the window by a frame so clawing is unnecessary.