Ike E3 1.0.8 Patch changes + discussion

[Arrei]

If anything it should be easier, since it reaches lower now, doesn't it?

 

[XDaDePsak]

my bad i typed Fair instead of Nair. I meant Nair.

 

[-RedX-]

Nah, Nair didn't receive any hitbox modifications according to the data.

 

[Renegade TX2000]

Nah, Nair didn't receive any hitbox modifications according to the data.

I feel like nair should have a better hitbox, be a tad bit faster, or slightly more hit stun. Any one of those changes would be great... I just think fair being so much better is just not fair for my lovely nair.

 

[-RedX-]

Chill bruh, I am absolutely okay with Nair in this game. I wouldn't say Nair is outclassed by Fair, it's essentially out combo/trap starter while being pretty damn safe now thanks to the recent buff.
I'll take a frame 4 startup buff though. Kappa
If Ike had a way to reliable way to interrupt juggles, he'd be complete but this will most likely not happen. Gotta have weaknesses somewhere.

 

[Renegade TX2000]

Chill bruh, I am absolutely okay with Nair in this game. I wouldn't say Nair is outclassed by Fair, it's essentially out combo/trap starter while being pretty damn safe now thanks to the recent buff.
I'll take a frame 4 startup buff though. Kappa
If Ike had a way to reliable way to interrupt juggles, he'd be complete but this will most likely not happen. Gotta have weaknesses somewhere.

I'm greedy for buffs now. lmfao

 

[Renegade TX2000]

I know this will feel weird being an ike main but punishing rolls with dair is actually a good option. how good the shield stun is and addition to the buffs of dair on how quickly it can recover when done close to the ground, makes it a safe shield poke option against the majority of the cast.

 

[Yoh]

I really love the new feeling and I love this version of Ike, I really feel like I don´t need a second anymore, had Pit as a backup before.

It´s funny how people still rate Ike as a bad character, he wasn´t even that bad before 1.0.8, he´s just seems never to get any attention, not that I care about that much, it´s just funny.

 

[Xuan Wu]

It´s funny how people still rate Ike as a bad character, he wasn´t even that bad before 1.0.8, he´s just seems never to get any attention, not that I care about that much, it´s just funny.

True. Even after the 1.0.8. update, I am also still seeing people saying he is bad. Let them keep underestimating Ike, especially Japan. The more they neglect him, the more buffs he would receive. If he ever becomes buffed to the point where players start to label him as OP, that is going to be their fault for discrediting him for so long.

It's going to be very funny if that ever happens, but I hope this isn't the case.

Anyway, I am thankful for Ike's frame data buffs as they will be very helpful in the long run. I think all there is left to further improve him now are damage buffs.

It would be nice if his Jab combo, F-air, U-air, and D-air did just 1% more damage. I am nitpicking on D-air because even though it already did 15%, Roy's D-air does the same, but the hitbox not being the tip of the blade makes it easier to spike with. I just think 16% damage, like in SSBB, would further set it apart from Roy's. Alternatively, they could at least bring back its lingering hitboxes.

And I still do not agree that Ike's Counter should be just as powerful as Marcina's.

^-^

 

[san.]

People (not us, people considering Ike on the bottom half) forget that even though uthrow->fair is easy now, we still have uthrow->uair at kill % on fast fallers (Fox, Greninja, Sheik, Roy, Diddy, Falcon, etc. and some of them uthrow->bair) and heavies with average gravity (Ganon and DK, can't on Charizard and Bowser is tough). If people are uncomfortable with uthrow (I have optimized my controls to get it almost every time), dthrow->fair lasts until higher % and gives more time to respond to DI. Ike has one of the best throw games and it's pretty funny, lol.

Kill setups:

~70% (rage) - 90% (no rage): uthrow to uair on Sheik-like characters
~85% (rage) - 110% (no rage): uthrow to uair on Falcon-like characters

Roy is somewhere inbetween. It doesn't work if they DI fully away except on like Falcon, but that makes uthrow->fair kill earlier.

Extra combos:

nair->dtilt at 0% on fastfallers
nair->jab1->jab2(miss)->full jab combo
nair->angled up ftilt at low %
dair(nonspike)->jab at low %
Fair/Bair -> dash attack at mid %
nair->a bunch of stuff at mid->high percent. Nair can kill setup into fair from the front and uair/bair at the back
uair-> a bunch of stuff at low to middle percent
dtilt->fair can be a kill setup at the edge now
fthrow/bthrow->tech chase into dash attack is pretty reliable around 80-90%.
At low %, SH fair at the top diagonal hitbox positions better for followups

On platform stages at low percent, dthrow/uthrow->nair->followup has a better chance to combo. Platforms actually help extend combos now.

jab2 nearly has ftilt range and comes out ~frame 13. Mixing jab1 and jab2 helps solidify advantages up close, even jab3 if the opponent committed to something. Ike doesn't have to worry about other characters' jabs anymore. Ftilt being 12.5% also means that it won't clank vs. 3% jabs, so that's good, too.

Quick draw's change helped Ike's recovery and neutral, especially with close combat. Quick draw releases more quickly, so we can actually use it like a pseudo dash-attack out of a pivot, run, or in the air. Because it starts faster, it can get some extra charge so you actually reach opponents and get some extra recovery. Quick draw may be better at punishing from a distance than dash attack if you have to run a ways to get there. Short hop QD and Full hop QD are a little more fluid to use, especially after swatting someone away with an attack.

Regular quick draw in neutral is decent as a whiff punisher, but Close Combat can actually be used offensively pretty well now. The extra charge helps with recovery since it needs it much more than the default. The old version sometimes couldn't get enough charge to recover when knocked away horizontally. Close combat used in the air now comes out around as fast as fair, so it should be used a lot in your game plan now. Quick draw can even be used to escape landing traps now, either do a fast QD away or hold QD towards the opponent and respond to their action. Even if you're it out of QD away, you may have moved a little bit more horizontally. High enough in the air and it autocancels, too, so it's a decent mixup for escaping juggles with the quicker charge.

Fair hitting above means that we can juggle opponents with nair, uair, and fair, and they all have their uses. Nair has the lowest lag, uair has the best lingering hitboxes, and fair has the best range. They can all frame trap into stuff.

Dair is worth its risk now. If you punish someone with dair, it could potentially lead to a lot of damage. Even if they tech, the lag is usually low enough to respond, or even punish if they tech rolled.

Overall, Ike has an even better trap, punish, and throw game

 

[TheHopefulHero]

Geez... Ike's been working out since the last patch.

 

[Starfall11]

I asked this in the "character competitive impressions" thread, but people pretty much ignored it and kept arguing about Sheik's needles. So maybe you guys can give a better answer:

"How viable do others feel Ike, Marth, and Roy will be as a result of 1.0.8.?
It seems Marth and Ike received considerable buffs, and Roy has a pretty solid combo game and kill power from what I've seen and experienced.
How will the disjointed hitboxes of the swordsmen stack against the top tiers? And how do they stack against each other? I'm very curious since I would put them at mid or upper mid."

 

[Renegade TX2000]

I asked this in the "character competitive impressions" thread, but people pretty much ignored it and kept arguing about Sheik's needles. So maybe you guys can give a better answer:

"How viable do others feel Ike, Marth, and Roy will be as a result of 1.0.8.?
It seems Marth and Ike received considerable buffs, and Roy has a pretty solid combo game and kill power from what I've seen and experienced.
How will the disjointed hitboxes of the swordsmen stack against the top tiers? And how do they stack against each other? I'm very curious since I would put them at mid or upper mid."

I feel like diddy vs ike is 5-5 now or in ikes favor.

Rosalina is stage dependent, but I feel like it's 5-5 "my opinion" you just have to understand rosalinas moveset.

Sheik is in sheiks favor but you can pull off the win. Always try and survive over 150% and your chances of winning the MU go up greatly.

 

[Arrei]

I don't know about actual matchups, but I think Roy and Ike will actually fall into pretty similar positions in the overall scheme. Both are heavily combo-reliant characters with powerful grab games who also need to space well, both can become combo food if you're not careful, and both are horribly gimpable.

 

[Yoh]

I think Ike will do just fine, I don´t think he has such horrible matchups anymore, you can win everything.
He still has his problems: juggling and his recovery has it´s weaknesses, but overall he is pretty damn solid now, better punish game, great combo ability, hard to punish if you space correct and use the right moves, even his overall speed is okay for such an heavy weight.
He has some good killsetups and a great throw game.
And Ike is suche a great danger if he has rage and he dies late cause he is heavy, so rage is always a thing.

Completly new kill option with DA is also welcome, people have to watch out for more now and need to be more careful.

 

[AN(M)ist]

Getting sooooo much satisfaction seeing my jabs connect on all of the cast.

I'd imagine offstage ike will be better off than Roy seeing as how Roy has a mediocre diagonal recovery, but ike has better vertical and horizontal recovery (not to mention him being able to upb if he swings from his side and his upb giving him a noticeable offset forward and back while coming down).

How is roy's air speed/mobility and second jump height compared to ike?

 

[Arrei]

I believe Roy's air jump is pretty average height and he moves through the air about as fast as Ike, but he falls like a rock. He's very much not comfortable offstage. I've been seeing people trying to get used to him running off intending to edgeguard with Fair and falling too far to recover.

 

[san.]

Made some quick, rough videos:

 

[PyroTakun]

Made some quick, rough videos:

BRUH
Them combos!

 

[san.]

Apparently, Ike's counter was buffed in 1.0.6

Ike
---
Counter
hitbox
kbg 74 -> 100

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Weird thing to buff, but I don't remember seeing that change in Marth's or Lucina's change log.

In theory, this should mean that Ike's counter is now stronger than theirs, right?

 

[-RedX-]

Man, they couldn't buff the activation frames instead? lol
I'll take it though.

 

[san.]

Smash counter has also been buffed. It's really strong after 60%.

Weird thing to buff, but I don't remember seeing that change in Marth's or Lucina's change log.

In theory, this should mean that Ike's counter is now stronger than theirs, right?

Yep, should be stronger.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I wonder if that buff has any effect on Para Counter's stun time.

 

[LordShade67]

Just out of curiosity, what IS the exact timing on UThrow > UAir at kill %? I can do UThrow > FAir no problem, but everytime I do the UThrow > UAir, the Combo counter resets back to 1. Granted, this probably isn't the right place for it, but hey.

 

[Blubolouis]

Great vids.
SH Fair reaching the top platform of BF is INSANE. Ike always had decent platform pressure but had to fast fall his aerials to make it safe. Now he can control all the space on BF with a single short hop?

And the counter buff is a well deserved one if you ask me, it made no sense to have an easier to trigger counter be more destructive than Ike's slower one.

 

[-RedX-]

lol just realized that was a SH Fair. Oh boy.

 

[Renegade TX2000]

Ikes true potential lies with platforms near by. Lylat, BattleField, Green Greens. Ike top tier stages. Pick your poison

 

[san.]

I had to delay the fair for it to hit, making it not autocancel anymore.

Just out of curiosity, what IS the exact timing on UThrow > UAir at kill %? I can do UThrow > FAir no problem, but everytime I do the UThrow > UAir, the Combo counter resets back to 1. Granted, this probably isn't the right place for it, but hey.

You have to hold forward after the uthrow and hit with the back part of uair. At higher percents around 115, uthrow->nair would kill sheik. Even so, fair is just easier and I recommend that unless you're confident. This means that it'll miss if they DI away, but that allows you to fair on reaction instead and get them closer to the horizontal blastzone.

You can also easily bait an air dodge. Uair at kill % only works on fastfallers unless you're super frame perfect since you get them out of their 1-3 frame air dodge vulnerability. Their gravity matters more than their weight (won't work on Charizard at kill %). With moderate rage, uthrow to uair stops working at like 80-85, even on sheik.

 

[LordShade67]

I had to delay the fair for it to hit, making it not autocancel anymore.



You have to hold forward after the uthrow and hit with the back part of uair. At higher percents around 115, uthrow->nair would kill sheik. Even so, fair is just easier and I recommend that unless you're confident. This means that it'll miss if they DI away, but that allows you to fair on reaction instead and get them closer to the horizontal blastzone.

You can also easily bait an air dodge. Uair at kill % only works on fastfallers unless you're super frame perfect since you get them out of their 1-3 frame air dodge vulnerability. Their gravity matters more than their weight (won't work on Charizard at kill %). With moderate rage, uthrow to uair stops working at like 80-85, even on sheik.

Ah. Noted. I guess I just have to speed up my timing with it, then. Though if UThrow > FAir's more general purpose, I'll probably stick with that primarily. That said, I have been using UThrow > UAir for Airdodge reads, since usually I hit the ground first and can punish with UTilt. Probably not optimal and I'll bet better players will get around it, but if it works, hey. *shrugs*

 

[ThatGenericGuy]

Does a staled Uthrow make the Fair/Uair combo possible at a higher percentage than what you were using?

 

[-RedX-]

Does a staled Uthrow make the Fair/Uair combo possible at a higher percentage than what you were using?

Yes.
Welcome to Smashboards.

 

[ReroRero]

Made some quick, rough videos:

Does the Bthrow into dash attack kill setup still work with DI ?

 

[san.]

Does the Bthrow into dash attack kill setup still work with DI ?

They can DI up or away, but it doesn't leave them in a good position, especially if they have to jump or go offstage.

 

[Firefoxx]

Apparently, Ike's counter was buffed in 1.0.6

Ike
---
Counter
hitbox
kbg 74 -> 100

Last night I countered a sourspot knee and killed Falcon cross stage on Smashville when we were both around 60-70%. So this buff is kind of the truth. Unless countering knee always counters the sweetspot, which would still be pretty awesome

 

[doom dragon 105]

Looking at the dair shenanigans on a platform, I wounder if dair to dsmash would work at like 80% instead of a fair. Might kill with rage and a small side ceiling?

 

[NWRL]

This patches buffs made this character a lot of fun for me, so much that I'm gonna start playing Smash 4 competitively. Thanks Sakurai

 

[Starfall11]

I feel the same way. This patch has inspired me to enter Smash 4 in my next tournament. I was originally only entering Project M.

 

[Mario766]

All I want now is d air lingering frames and aether reverse ledge grab and Im set.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Well, since we got a lot of core stuff already...

Niddo's Ike Changes Priority List

1) Aether Reverse Ledge Grab. Because Mario's cape is a jerk.

2) Jab 1 Frame 3. Or Frame 2, balance it out by reducing Jab 3 knockback if you must

3) Speed up Dsmash's hits. Lower base knockback to even it out if you must, not like its a kill move we use.

4) Add lingering frames to Dair, make the meteor box the entire sword instead of the tip

--- Above is important, below is just nice to have ---

5) Add more lingering frames to Uair. Like 1-2 at the start.

6) More active Counter frames

7) Reduced time on Quick Draw between stopping and swinging, add 1-2% more damage

8) Add a larger hitbox to the back hit of Usmash.

9) Give us back Eruption's super armour

10) Let Unyielding Blade have super armour while charging in the air

Pipe Dream: Brawl Jab Canceling back, complete with Brawl Jab 1's hitstun value. Helllllooooo Jab 1 -> Dtilt and Grab true combos