Ike Chaingrab

[Bowser King]

You guys have probably heard of it. He has a b-throw (?) chaingrab ONLY on bowser.

Is there a way around it?

I'm not very good with ike and after trying couldn't pull it off. I'm guessing it is possible to do.

Now I just want to know, is there a way around it? It can deal 60% so tat's pretty bad.

Kinda like how the ganon boards have there "mythbuster" thread, we should see if there's a possible way out of it.

-Bowser King

 

[professor mgw]

i'm not 2 sure, wat do u mean by chain grab?

 

[MrEh]

i'm not 2 sure, wat do u mean by chain grab?

http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Chaingrab

Read this. ^^

 

[Bowser King]

Umm....chaingrabing is when you repeatedly throw (or in bowser and some other chars case, release) a character and then regrab them. It's usually inescapable (in the case of grab release it differs between air release and ground) until a certain precent or reaching the edge.

EDIT: MrEH beat me to it

-Bowser King

 

[B!squick]

Fortress? If that don't work, nothing will.

 

[MrEh]

I'm still waiting for the Ike guys to make a video, explaining the chaingrab and how it works.

 

[Phiddlesticks]

It's just back throw, run back, grab, backthrow, run back, etc. :x Ike can end it with a dash attack for a 0-60% combo or something. From what I've heard though, the timing is pretty strict, so Bowser can fortress out of it if the Ike slips up at all (or at least make up for some of the damage if the super armour from Ike's grab goes through fortress)

 

[itsthebigfoot]

bowser can probably fortress out anyway, i doubt whoever tested this did against a real person who was mashing upb

also, we still 0-death him with a grab, not going to change the matchup much

EDIT: it needs at least 29 frames of hitstun (which i doubt) and the range on ikes grab needs to extend a good quarter of the screen for it to work at that speed.

I'm pretty sure this doesn't actually work

 

[YagamiLight]

I'm still waiting for the Ike guys to make a video, explaining the chaingrab and how it works.

Well, I used the frame by frame debug menu hack to be able to see every frame of the action as it happens. Kirk later confirmed it and corrected me on a point which I'll list here. I'm sure if one of you asks him for a video he'll give it to you, for now let me just explain it in detail.

Ike's Back Throw, due to an amazing amount of IASA frames, grants him an 19 frame advantage when used on a Bowser at 0%. Let's denote the frame in which Ike can act first 1 and therefore the frame in which Bowser can act first 19. Ike's grab hitbox has to hit Bowser on turn 18 or sooner, as due to Whirling Fortress Bowser is invincible on frame 19-25 I believe.

So, at 0%, Ike grabs and Bthrow. He then runs for exactly 6 frames and initiates a Dash Grab, which takes 12 frames to hit. Bowser is snagged and the process is repeated. The extra distance Bowser flies is miraculously mitigated by the additional hitstun the Bthrow progressively causes. Eventually, Ike is able to do a running shield grab on Bowser at the latter percents. This goes to 45%.

After 45%, however, an interesting thing happens. If Bowser performs no action, then his landing animation duck saves him from Ike's rather short grab range. If Bowser tries to do something, and Ike predicts it and reacts to it, you get regrabbed but it's not guaranteed past 45%.

After 45% a simple Bthrow to Dash Attack happens. That's a true combo, just in case you didn't know.

I hope I explained that well enough.

EDIT: And yes, it is FRAME PERFECT. You, as a Bowser player, should just keep mashing Up B. It won't activate in midair, but you'll be invincible right after the landing lag.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

what effect would DIing down have? because it would definitely screw with the frame-perfectness of it if we just DI'd down and landed sooner

EDIT: you also grab us on the ground, but bowser can act in the air after a dthrow, i don't think the debug mode aaccounts for hitstun frames that can be dodged/attacked out of

 

[YagamiLight]

what effect would DIing down have? because it would definitely screw with the frame-perfectness of it if we just DI'd down and landed sooner

EDIT: you also grab us on the ground, but bowser can act in the air after a dthrow, i don't think the debug mode aaccounts for hitstun frames that can be dodged/attacked out of

1) Throws that do not place you into the tumbling animation can't be DIed at all. There's a rather easy way to test this, take a Bowser at say, 80% and 999%. Bthrow him with Ike. DI as much as you want and since the Bthrow doesn't place you in the tumbling animation, the distance will not be changed. Past 100% or so, it begins to put you in the tumbling animation. So at 999% hold up for the first throw and down for the second and you'll see a huge difference.

2) Debug mode is simply Brawl slowed down frame by frame. Any action that can be inputted during a normal Brawl can be done here. But you don't have to take my word for it. Go to training mode (or normal Brawl), pick Ike and Bowser. Bthrow and have a partner attempt to do something before landing as much as he wants. He will not be able to.

 

[MrEh]

Thanks for clearing that up Light. The main thing I want to ask though: "is it actually viable?"

There are lots of things that are possible, but aren't viable due to the ******** amount of timing required. Can this be done consistently?

 

[YagamiLight]

Thanks for clearing that up Light. The main thing I want to ask though: "is it actually viable?"

There are lots of things that are possible, but aren't viable due to the ******** amount of timing required. Can this be done consistently?

An interesting question, to be sure. In Melee players were able to consistently, without failure, perform 4 frame short hops with Fox and all sorts of nifty combos. Consistently, I once again emphasize.

This is Brawl however, and few things require frame perfect timing. Lucas's Magnet Pull is one of these, as Levitas pointed out in a topic he made ages ago. I'll be brutally honest: If an Ike wants to do it, he WILL be able to do it. As such, I would imagine it would have a fairly nice effect on number ratios. Realistically, with there being so few capable Ikes and even less Bowsers to perform it on, the only thing it really is just another theorycraft slash at Bowser. You probably won't meet an Ike and if you do, chances are he won't have practiced this.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

meh, we still 0-death him with the grab releases, i doubt this will change much

 

[YagamiLight]

meh, we still 0-death him with the grab releases, i doubt this will change much

Correct me if I am wrong, but the 0-death is a novelty. It's just an over-B at the edge, is it not? The grab release will generally either end in a ground release to Ftilt or perhaps a Fair over the edge. Ike is not going to be grabbed by Bowser on a daily basis, mind you.

Honestly speaking, this will have a fairly large effect but only really towards the "perfect play" match-up ratio. I don't like to talk numbers but it goes from even (or close to it) to a fairly nice Ike advantage.

 

[Bowser King]

Correct me if I am wrong, but the 0-death is a novelty. It's just an over-B at the edge, is it not? The grab release will generally either end in a ground release to Ftilt or perhaps a Fair over the edge. Ike is not going to be grabbed by Bowser on a daily basis, mind you.

Honestly speaking, this will have a fairly large effect but only really towards the "perfect play" match-up ratio. I don't like to talk numbers but it goes from even (or close to it) to a fairly nice Ike advantage.

I doubt it.

The chaingrab is really hard to pull off and is frame perfect (if at all).

Also, saying that ike won't be getting grabbed often then saying ike's chaingrab is going to make a huge change matchup wise sounds pretty biased (no offense).

Also, bowsers chaingrab can happen at any time and racks damage really well.
Ike's does 60% at 0 which, you grabbing us at 0, will likely not happen often.
After 60, it's useless.

-Bowser King

 

[YagamiLight]

I doubt it.

The chaingrab is really hard to pull off and is frame perfect (if at all).

Also, saying that ike won't be getting grabbed often then saying ike's chaingrab is going to make a huge change matchup wise sounds pretty biased (no offense).

Also, bowsers chaingrab can happen at any time and racks damage really well.
Ike's does 60% at 0 which, you grabbing us at 0, will likely not happen often.
After 60, it's useless.

-Bowser King

I phrased my last post most terribly, so your reaction is understandable.

1) Totally, it's amazingly hard to pull off. Match-up ratios don't keep in mind difficulty of use, as I'm sure you know.

2) Yeah, it sounds biased the way I said it, but look at it this way: Ike has an amazing spacing game (Rather hard to deny, yes? ) which prevents him from getting grabbed a fair bit of the time. However, especially against a huge guy like Bowser, jab to grab is a very real and very dangerous possibility, especially seeing as how your only method of not making it work is to max SDI up (I'm not even sure if Bowser CAN SDI all the way up and avoid a grab, he's huge!).

3) Bowser's CG is a very nice damage racker unless you are facing someone who is skilled at breaking out. Done right, you should only be getting one pummel per grab, strictly speaking.

4) And keep in mind the final fact: Ike is the strongest character in the game. You can take 60% from like Yoshi or Sheik and shrug it off because well...it's Yoshi and Sheik. I'm sure you understand when I say you can't do the same against Ike. 60% is already the danger zone.

 

[B!squick]

Well, I don't know about Sheik, but Yoshi has, overall, some of the fastest smash attacks I've ever seen. o.o

I doubt 60% would be a danger zone for Bowser though. He is one of the heaviest characters in the game. Though I'm sure stocks have the shortest life span against Ike.

 

[illinialex24]

For this thing, I know the debug menu has issues with the C-stick. Did you include a double stick DI in it? Because the extra length could save Bowser.

 

[YagamiLight]

Well, I don't know about Sheik, but Yoshi has, overall, some of the fastest smash attacks I've ever seen. o.o

I doubt 60% would be a danger zone for Bowser though. He is one of the heaviest characters in the game. Though I'm sure stocks have the shortest life span against Ike.

Yoshi is horrendously weak though. Massive kill issues. But yeah, 60% is still dangerous against Ike.

For this thing, I know the debug menu has issues with the C-stick. Did you include a double stick DI in it? Because the extra length could save Bowser.

It's not DIable, I mentioned that somewhere above.

 

[Bowser King]

I phrased my last post most terribly, so your reaction is understandable.

1) Totally, it's amazingly hard to pull off. Match-up ratios don't keep in mind difficulty of use, as I'm sure you know.

Not necessarily. If it's something you can practice and get down (IC's chaingrab) then yes but for something like this, well...

2) Yeah, it sounds biased the way I said it, but look at it this way: Ike has an amazing spacing game (Rather hard to deny, yes? ) which prevents him from getting grabbed a fair bit of the time. However, especially against a huge guy like Bowser, jab to grab is a very real and very dangerous possibility, especially seeing as how your only method of not making it work is to max SDI up (I'm not even sure if Bowser CAN SDI all the way up and avoid a grab, he's huge!).

Umm..bowser can space pretty well to. We have klaw hopping to avoid any major direct on grabs and there are quite a bit of characters who can space beyond ike yet they get grabbed as well.

3) Bowser's CG is a very nice damage racker unless you are facing someone who is skilled at breaking out. Done right, you should only be getting one pummel per grab, strictly speaking.

Sure but then once you get to the edge, you'll be eating a ftilt or jab.

4) And keep in mind the final fact: Ike is the strongest character in the game. You can take 60% from like Yoshi or Sheik and shrug it off because well...it's Yoshi and Sheik. I'm sure you understand when I say you can't do the same against Ike. 60% is already the danger zone.

Exactly. Getting 60% for ike can be done pretty quick. So that makes your CG useless unless you can get a grab early on and that likely won't be happening all the time since you'll have better options.

Anyway, we need some people to test if this works or not.

-Bowser King

 

[•Col•]

Some of the Bowser mains sure are in denial....... :o

 

[Bowser King]

Some of the Bowser mains sure are in denial....... :o

No, we just want to know if this works or not and even then it's not THAT amazing that it will put a close to even matchup to 60-40.

-Bowser King

 

[voomm]

This really sounds like a problem!

 

[•Col•]

No, we just want to know if this works or not and even then it's not THAT amazing that it will put a close to even matchup to 60-40.

-Bowser King

A Smash researcher confirmed that it worked a couple weeks ago, if that helps at all.

This is too funny...

At some percent(I'll just say 60%), if Bowser does nothing after being B-thrown, Ike's grab misses. If he shields as soon as he is able, Ike can grab him. Silly frame perfect-ness...

This alone would make this NOT a chaingrab at this percent(since it depends on the action of the throwee, regardless if your inputs are perfect).

Example:

Counting frames after the hitstun from the Bthrow ends, Ike has 12 frames before he can act and Bowser has 34 frames before he can act.

For the distance Bowser is thrown, a running shield grab is the most desirable(it comes out faster and has more range than the Dash grab).

So, you need running frames, plus 3 frames of shielding, plus 7 frames for grabbing. You can't perform a standing grab until 3 frames of shield have passed...otherwise you will dash grab instead.

Also keep in mind, Bowser's fastest action is spotdodging...which his first invincibility frame comes out on frame 3, which makes his first invulnerable frame to be on frame 37(34 frames of lag, 2 frames of spotdodge startup, invincible the next frame).

Also keep in mind, these are assuming FRAME PERFECT inputs for BOTH characters.

Test 1:

13 frames of running were used. So Ike's total frames are 12 + 13 + 3 + 7. This comes out to 35 frames...meaning Ike's grab hitbox comes out on frame 35.

If Bowser...
--Does nothing: NOT Grabbed!
--Shields: Grabbed!
--Spotdodges: Grabbed!
--Rolls Away from you: NOT Grabbed!
--Rolls Towards you: NOT Grabbed!
--Jumps: Grabbed!

Test 2:

14 Frames of running instead of 13. Total frames for Ike are 36.

If Bowser...
--Does nothing: Grabbed! (Frame 37, not 36)
--Shields: Grabbed!
--Spotdodges: NOT Grabbed!
--Rolls Away from you: NOT Grabbed!
--Rolls Towards you: NOT Grabbed!
--Jumps: Grabbed! (Frame 37, not 36)

If you look closely, you may notice the spotdodge situation. "He's not invincible until frame 37, yet Ike grabs on frame 36! What gives!?" Simple: Bowser moves his massive bulk out of your range with his spotdodge animation. Instead of his standing animation(his head sticking out for you to grab), the animation of the spotdodge has him moving his hurtbox out of your grab range. This is also the reason for various Grabbed/Not Grabbed situations(i.e. Standing/Shielding/Jumping has Bowser's head out front, while his landing lag from doing nothing[crouched down to the ground], spot dodge, and roll dodge animations all have his hurtbox shifted elsewhere).

Another note, at lower percents it is better to dash grab instead of a running shield grab. Reasoning: Ike cannot cancel his run into a shield until frame 11. At lower percents(for this example, 0% - Bowser can act after 30 frames), Ike can run 6 frames then do a dash grab(12 frames), grabbing Bowser on frame 18(plus 12 frames from the lag from Bthrow). If you did a running shield grab, it would be 10 frames for running, 3 for shielding, and 7 for the grab...20 frames(. You're too sloooowwww!

Yeah...how's that? Confusing enough for everyone? xD

You're right. I forgot to take into account that Bowser has a frame 1 invincibility move. Regardless, my previous post's point was to show it's situational when grabbing can work(down to the frame).

BUT, I can say the chaingrab does work up until 42%(I.E. If you Back throw Bowser when he is at 42%, you can still grab him again). Just remember this is FRAME PERFECT, which is incredibly hard to do realistically...and since all Bowser has to do is basically spam Whirling Fortress to get out, it makes it that much more difficult. Ike grabs Bowser on frame 33(after Bthrow hitlag), when Bowser can act on frame 34. After that, Bowser is too far away to grab...but ONLY if he does whirling fortress. My examples in the previous post show that it can work upwards of 60% if the correct action is taken.

tl;dr - Ike gots chaingrab on Boozer 'til 42% yo. Yayuuhhzzzzz.

But lol, I don't think any of us think that it's going to give Ike a massive advantage or anything... It's just a little something to help...

 

[YagamiLight]

Not necessarily. If it's something you can practice and get down (IC's chaingrab) then yes but for something like this, well...



Umm..bowser can space pretty well to. We have klaw hopping to avoid any major direct on grabs and there are quite a bit of characters who can space beyond ike yet they get grabbed as well.




Sure but then once you get to the edge, you'll be eating a ftilt or jab.



Exactly. Getting 60% for ike can be done pretty quick. So that makes your CG useless unless you can get a grab early on and that likely won't be happening all the time since you'll have better options.

Anyway, we need some people to test if this works or not.

-Bowser King

1) I don't quite understand what you are saying. There is a rhythm to the ICs chaingrab and there most certainly is a rhythm to this. It's not very hard to do, it just requires appropriate timing.

2) Very few characters have even a single move that can cover the distance that Ragnell can. And, as I just said, jab to grab is very lethal on large characters such as Bowser. Ike's large frame means that a grab is not a particularly foreign thing.

3) Alright, at the end of the grab release chaingrab I take another 9% or so. So um, 16-18% total from the whole CG?

4) I don't think you got what I meant. Since Ike is the strongest character in the game, if he can use a combo to rack 60% on you, then that's MUCH more lethal than say...Diddy Kong having a similar combo. Ike can kill you at 60%, Diddy cannot.

No, we just want to know if this works or not and even then it's not THAT amazing that it will put a close to even matchup to 60-40.

-Bowser King

1) Colaya covered that.

2) You seem to be REALLY downplaying this. You're arguing that a new 60% chaingrab will NOT make an even match a solid advantage? Are you quite sure about this?

 

[illinialex24]

Yeah players like Kirk could really make this matchup worse. Sounds pretty legit.

 

[Bowser King]

1) I don't quite understand what you are saying. There is a rhythm to the ICs chaingrab and there most certainly is a rhythm to this. It's not very hard to do, it just requires appropriate timing.

Ohhh...I was under a different assumption

2) Very few characters have even a single move that can cover the distance that Ragnell can. And, as I just said, jab to grab is very lethal on large characters such as Bowser. Ike's large frame means that a grab is not a particularly foreign thing.

I never argued it wasn't. All I said was that there are characters who can space better then ike.

3) Alright, at the end of the grab release chaingrab I take another 9% or so. So um, 16-18% total from the whole CG?

Actually, 18 damage just from >B, approx 14 for jabs and ftilt. That plus the chaingrab.

4) I don't think you got what I meant. Since Ike is the strongest character in the game, if he can use a combo to rack 60% on you, then that's MUCH more lethal than say...Diddy Kong having a similar combo. Ike can kill you at 60%, Diddy cannot.

Again, I never argued against this. All I'm saying is that your better off using your moves then you will be using this grab because, very likely, you won't be grabbing us at early percent. It's just how the games works. Unless your chasing us for the grab and doing nothing else, you will be getting hits in. It CAN deal 60% but will it always? Not likely. Still, 60% on ike IS a bad spot to be in but bowsers heavy so I don't think 60% is the likely time he's going to be dieing unless he gets hit my a fully charged fsmash.

1) Colaya covered that.

Alright

2) You seem to be REALLY downplaying this. You're arguing that a new 60% chaingrab will NOT make an even match a solid advantage? Are you quite sure about this?

I'd argue that 60-40 would be the worst it could be. The matchuo still seems like a 55-45 to me =/

Also, I'm not downplaying it. I agree that it does factor in but it doesn't seem all that amazing as you put it out to be. I guess I could see it being 60-40 but IMO I don't think it is.

Were going to be discussing ike later on. That's not the point of this thread.

-Bowser King

 

[YagamiLight]

Ohhh...I was under a different assumption

Alright.

I never argued it wasn't. All I said was that there are characters who can space better then ike.

True enough.


Actually, 18 damage just from >B, approx 14 for jabs and ftilt. That plus the chaingrab.

So about (3+2+1+1+1) + 18 or 14? Doesn't seem super bad. It's painful but eh, not much worse than taking an Ftilt to the face from Snake or a few Jab cancels for anothr Ike.

Again, I never argued against this. All I'm saying is that your better off using your moves then you will be using this grab because, very likely, you won't be grabbing us at early percent. It's just how the games works. Unless your chasing us for the grab and doing nothing else, you will be getting hits in. It CAN deal 60% but will it always? Not likely. Still, 60% on ike IS a bad spot to be in but bowsers heavy so I don't think 60% is the likely time he's going to be dieing unless he gets hit my a fully charged fsmash.

Well yeah, I agree. Ike should play normally but if he gets the chance to jab -> grab, he should take it knowing that it's a free trip to making Bowser have 60%. Realistically Ike probably won't be killing Bowser until about eh...100 maybe. That's when the Ftilt and Bair start to be lethal on him. Still, the CG and then some jab cancels will (rather shockingly) place you in near death territory.


I'd argue that 60-40 would be the worst it could be. The matchuo still seems like a 55-45 to me =/

Also, I'm not downplaying it. I agree that it does factor in but it doesn't seem all that amazing as you put it out to be. I guess I could see it being 60-40 but IMO I don't think it is.

Were going to be discussing ike later on. That's not the point of this thread.

-Bowser King

I'm not sure what the numbers are but I'm sure you know what I mean when I say it's definitely not even anymore. We'll get to the details of the numbers when you guys reach Ike.


Responses are in cyan.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

the fair also ko's at like 40 since ike has... ikes recovery, and fair hits pretty horizontal. the question is is the bowser good enough to jab cancel twice before the regrab? because if so then it'll probably go to a ko

also, the ground release punish would be dtilt since it's more of a horizontal hit, or jab for another try at the fair

btw, bowser can and will jab cancel grab you, and his jab out ranges yours, you won't spend the entire game just spacing fairs and nairs (since upb does punish that), especially since you have to attempt a grab on us too for the cg to have any effect. punishing a whiffed grab with a grab is pretty easy

 

[MrEh]

Nair is crap btw. ^^

 

[YagamiLight]

Gah, forgot about this. Sorry for the late responses.

the fair also ko's at like 40 since ike has... ikes recovery, and fair hits pretty horizontal. the question is is the bowser good enough to jab cancel twice before the regrab? because if so then it'll probably go to a ko

also, the ground release punish would be dtilt since it's more of a horizontal hit, or jab for another try at the fair

btw, bowser can and will jab cancel grab you, and his jab out ranges yours, you won't spend the entire game just spacing fairs and nairs (since upb does punish that), especially since you have to attempt a grab on us too for the cg to have any effect. punishing a whiffed grab with a grab is pretty easy

1. It won't KO Ike at 40% if Ike even has the slightest notion of DI. Just holding up would save Ike, even with Fair's rather horizontal trajectory. Also remember that jabs to grabs are not even close to true combos with Bowser, since he has a frame 9 standing grab (among other things).

2. Once again, if the Ike can DI then horizontal moves should have lessened effects.

3. Yeah, Bowser can jab cancel as well, there are just a few things that make it far less effective than Ike's.

a. First off, due to Bowser's standing grab range, he has to get in close for the grab to hit. This negates the jab range advantage.

b. Lower frame advantage.

c. SDIable + Ike's frame is much much smaller than Bowser's.

Ike CAN spend the entire game spacing Fairs if he feels like it but yeah, Nair is punishable OoS.

Nair is crap btw. ^^

Ike's Nair is crap? :L

 

[MrEh]

Ike's Nair is crap? :L

Bowser's Nair is. XD

 

[YagamiLight]

Bowser's Nair is. XD

Aha, okay. Thought that seemed out of place.

 

[Bowser King]

Gah, forgot about this. Sorry for the late responses.



1. It won't KO Ike at 40% if Ike even has the slightest notion of DI. Just holding up would save Ike, even with Fair's rather horizontal trajectory. Also remember that jabs to grabs are not even close to true combos with Bowser, since he has a frame 9 standing grab (among other things).

Maybe not 40 but it WILL kill very early.

2. Once again, if the Ike can DI then horizontal moves should have lessened effects.

Umm...you can't just say "well DI this hit" because it doesn't work like that. Once you get hit, DI will be helpful but it's not going to be able save you all the time.

3. Yeah, Bowser can jab cancel as well, there are just a few things that make it far less effective than Ike's.

Sure but bowser can still do a lot with jab cancel. Just not as much as ike.

a. First off, due to Bowser's standing grab range, he has to get in close for the grab to hit. This negates the jab range advantage.

Jab cancel to grab will most likely work. It may fail but I'm pretty sure it works.

b. Lower frame advantage.

Your referring to fortress right? That has invincibility frames and a huge amount of priority. It will take care of fairs and nairs if used right.

c. SDIable + Ike's frame is much much smaller than Bowser's.

Not sure about that

Ike CAN spend the entire game spacing Fairs if he feels like it but yeah, Nair is punishable OoS.

You can't win with just fairs and if all you needed the entire match was fair the matchup would be 75-25.

-Bowser King

 

[shboke]

i like this topic but it really does seem that bowser king is in denial which makes it even funnier

 

[_Kadaj_]

How do you 0-death ike with bowser?

 

[MrEh]

How do you 0-death ike with bowser?

Grab release chaingrab into Klaw.

It's a novelty at most.

 

[_Kadaj_]

lmao what kinda 0-death is that Can you chain grab him? Just with grab release?

 

[MrEh]

Can you chain grab him? Just with grab release?

Yes, Ike can be chaingrabbed the same way Bowser can chaingrab Falco and MK. It works, it's just very stupid. XD