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IGN: "No voice acting, though not necessary,

Vermanubis

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Link to original post: [drupal=4794]IGN: "No voice acting, though not necessary,[/drupal]



...does hurt the cinematic feel."

This was said about Skyward Sword. Not that I'm defending SS just yet, since I haven't even played it, but that typically Western-minded statement disgusts me. I haaaate the masturbatory notion that because something is available, it needs to be added. The only thing I can think to describe a VA addition to the Zelda franchise is ham-fisted.

I know it shouldn't be a surprise coming from IGN, but the fact that a few people on GFaqs were actually agreeing with it just makes my skin crawl. More isn't always more, and subtlety sometimes (oftentimes) is a far more powerful artistic tool than explicitness.

A game like Zelda finds ways to express the story and its characters through ingenious avenues rather than just saying "Okay, let's add some VA." The silence of the characters speaks volumes (pun intended) greater than actually hearing what they sound like. The best things come from the oddest constraints. Bach composed within such tight voice-leading parameters, that it's amazing he did what he did. Without those parameters, Bach wouldn't have been Bach. Bach also mathematically spelled his name at the end of each song he did by playing a Bb, A, C then H (B natural in Germany), which gave his works even more character.

For another music example, half of what makes jazz so interesting is the fact that when you expect an Ab7 chord, you modulate with a G7. The obvious choice isn't interesting, nor does it beg a struggle from the artist to engineer new and interesting ways to express something.

There's more to artistic mastery and cinematic poignancy than direct discourse like VA would bring. Time and place are pivotal in such things. Sometimes the observer's hand doesn't need to be held to make certain connections. The facial expressions and terse quips Salvatore made in WW told me more about his character than 15 minutes of high-paid VA work ever could. Were Zelda a game of massive depth, it would be a necessity to supplement the complex dialogue between characters--but Zelda isn't like that. Like minimalist music, the quirky terseness of the Zelda cast speaks volumes with movement, expressions and context. VA, in this case, isn't at all necessary. Zelda's not strange to having silent cutscenes that spoke for themselves by virtue of a story that is matured by alternative presentation rather than explicitly detailing a character relationship (we see how that went in Other M). Personally, I was far more mystified by Samus' story when I didn't know her her measurements, favorite color, favorite Beatle and High School transcripts. Now that delicate character is, to me, broken.

To hell with this obsessive clinging to paralleling "cinema" and tactless maximalism. Some things simply just don't need to be polished and waxed. Not to mention, I think some things are just not meant to be--if I had to hear the Happy Mask Salesman speak at length, I think I'd jump off of a bridge. ._.
 

Flayl

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A game like Zelda finds ways to express the story and its characters through ingenious avenues rather than just saying "Okay, let's add some VA." The silence of the characters speaks volumes (pun intended) greater than actually hearing what they sound like.
I was talking about this.
 

Fuelbi

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You know, this reminds me about Wall-E. When the movie came out, I heard a couple of people criticizing the first half hour or so of the movie didn't have any voices in it and that's the reason they didn't like it too much

Then I just looked at them, shook my head, and walked away.

Guess what I'm trying to say here is that people around this part of the world are ******* about what they want in their mediums because for it to be good it needs to be crammed with useless ****
 

Vermanubis

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I was talking about this.
I don't quite get what you're getting at. I'll take a guess though and say that "silence during text" is the same as anywhere else. Facial expressions, sounds, etc. Miyamoto himself said he named Link to be a "Link between the player and the world," in essence allowing the player to project themselves into the game. Some people say that they wouldn't mind VAs in the game, but would want Link to remain silent. That still wouldn't work, because it would then compromise Link's apparent pauciloquence, 'cause he'd have to interact and converse with those who are actually speaking, lest he seem like a huge dip**** lol.
 

Master Xanthan

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Voice acting is good for some kinds of games. But it just doesn't seem like it would work with most nintendo games.
 

Vermanubis

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It's quite simple, I was asking how a character remaining silent during a dialog speaks volumes more than if he/she talked.

Your answer is immersion.
I really don't see what you're asking. o_O What does their silence mean? It's not what it <means> so much as how much more powerful expressions and gestures can be than spoken word.

@Fuelbi: Yes! That's what I mean by maximalism: justifying tactless additions without considerations beyond the fact that "it's there, so we might as well."
 
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I agree completely with Verm. Let's not forget that American anime VAs are terrible, and should be thrown into a box and hurled into the sun.
 

Krystedez

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What if animes started doing a silent protagonist?

What if Zelda series had an anime?







Now guess what, you NEED voices there for plot significance and character development.

In Zelda GAMES, you don't. Derp. Because? IT'SA ME MAR-IT'S A ROLE PLAYING GAME. We are in that character shoes. Very rarely do we need to really know what the character wants to say, because we have already said it within ourselves.

In other words I completely agree.
 

Jam Stunna

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What if animes started doing a silent protagonist?

What if Zelda series had an anime?







Now guess what, you NEED voices there for plot significance and character development.

In Zelda GAMES, you don't. Derp. Because? IT'SA ME MAR-IT'S A ROLE PLAYING GAME. We are in that character shoes. Very rarely do we need to really know what the character wants to say, because we have already said it within ourselves.

In other words I completely agree.
Persona 3 & 4 show that you can have voice acting and a silent protagonist. It works incredibly well.

Also, why is asking for voice acting a "Western" complaint?
 

Teran

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I wish no voice acting would return. Granted in a lot of games voice acting works better, but in a lot of games it really isn't necessary, and the poor standard of acting in video games (imo) causes it to detract if anything.

No voice acting makes a game get that feel of a book, where you add the voices and expressions yourself, making it your experience.

Don't we all say that's why books will always be better than cinema? Wait, why the **** is a cinematic experience important? I don't want my game to be a stupid popcorn fest.

**** you IGN.
 

Jam Stunna

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Don't we all say that's why books will always be better than cinema? Wait, why the **** is a cinematic experience important? I don't want my game to be a stupid popcorn fest.

We say this because in the process of converting a book to a movie, a lot gets lost. What makes a book good doesn't necessarily translate well to the screen. Novelizations of movies are equally bad for the same reason (what makes a movie good does not necessarily translate well to a book).

I also disagree that "reading" a game is better than "watching" a game. They're both pretty bad (increasingly I think that games in general are a bad way to deliver a story), but since gaming is a visual experience to begin with (that is, it relies on moving images like movies and television do), I give a slight nod to watching a game being the better experience.
 

etecoon

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a good example of the unique things you get out of self imposed restrictions, twilight princess has a great moment where midna's incoherent sound effects briefly play her theme song, something you really couldn't do with normal VA without it being completely silly

also IGN is IGN and going to gamefaqs in search of anything other than a trollfest never leads to anything good
 

Jam Stunna

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I actually find Midna, and the other Zelda characters like her ridiculous. THEY'RE TALKING! They just aren't using words, as if that makes any sense at all. That "speech" at the end of Wind Waker by the King was silly.

But yeah, its IGN. I saw the first line of that review and stopped reading. Someone on another message board pointed this out:

IGN wrote, "Ocarina, your time is up. It took Nintendo almost a decade to do it, but the publisher has finally created a new Zelda game that is so well-designed and so epic that it deserves to be crowned the best in its class."

Sound familiar? That's from their review of Twilight Princess. At this point, Ocarina has been so consistently surpassed, you have to wonder why it's still the standard.
 

Teran

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I also disagree that "reading" a game is better than "watching" a game.
You can do both at the same time, really.

They're both pretty bad (increasingly I think that games in general are a bad way to deliver a story)
Liiiiiiiiiiiies.

Games are potentially the best way of delivering stories, imo.

ut since gaming is a visual experience to begin with (that is, it relies on moving images like movies and television do), I give a slight nod to watching a game being the better experience.
To be fair, movies and television have zero interaction, a game you're directly involved in, so you're paying far more attention to minute details and you're generally tuned in. I generally dislike the idea of a cinematic experience unless the game is sort of leaning in that direction, something like an action or fps game it only makes sense.


Things that are slowed down or have lots of characters with ultimately inconsequential dialogue makes voice acting suck because basically they recycle voice samples, so lots of characters sound the same, lots of characters SAY the same damn thing over and over again and it can start to grate on your ears, whereas just seeing a text bubble you can just skip it all.


God, no wonder I disliked Oblivion.


Voice acting quality in games just hasn't really kept up with the graphical advances I guess.


If you want an example of a cinematic game done perfectly, play Everything or Nothing xD

Ramble

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I actually find Midna, and the other Zelda characters like her ridiculous. THEY'RE TALKING! They just aren't using words, as if that makes any sense at all. That "speech" at the end of Wind Waker by the King was silly.
I liked Klonoa 2's voice acting the best. lol
 

Teran

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At a stretch I suppose it wouldn't really be a big deal if everyone were voice acted except for Link, as long as they don't do VA for any remakes.
 

Teran

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I suppose that is true.
 

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I think voice acting is one of those things where it works in some places and it doesn't for others. Using Nintendo games as an example, Metroid and Starfox are games that benefit a lot from vocie acting. Sure, Metroid's only really done it for two games, but I think the atmosphere would be affected had they not done the voice acting for Corruption and Other M.

On the other end, Zelda should stay as it is in terms of voice acting. I think the plot twists and suspenseful moments are surprisingly done better. But, Twilight Princess did suffer in a few scenes. I think Zelda is a series where the actions do most of the talking. I mean, if you had a RPG-like take on the Ghirahim vs. Impa scene, it'd be kind of narmy.
 

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voice acting in metroid is hard for me to call because coincidentally, the best metroid games don't have any NPC's in them, just a bunch of alien monsters...
 

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Well, I was just talking in terms of the atmosphere with vs. without. I wasn't talking about the overall quality of the game.
 

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When you say the letters IGN, you really should have pressed the back button.

That has always been a complaint with them. That and their unhealthy disdain for all things Nintendo.
 

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I don't really care for VA. It's ok if it's there. It can give more realism/immersion to the game, but on the other hand, I usually read the text 3 times faster than the VAs and they just end up interrupting my reading.

As for voice acting in Zelda, it would be fine if they do three things:

1. Link better not talk.
2. Zelda and Ganon (or main bad guy) better have a damn good voice.
3. Option to turn voices off and play it classic style, including the normal VAs. (the ones who have made all the grunts, screams, laugh, etc. until now)
 

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What exactly is considered voice acting actually? Surely Link will still shout his stuff like Sayyahhh? Or do u just mean dialogue, including animation? I consider all the short mumbles in the zelda games voice acting... but maybe thats just me then? xD
 

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I personally think people are afraid of change. No offense to Nintendo fans, but it seems like they seem to throw a **** storm when any major change shows up. I remember when the graphics/art style for SS were revealed, there was so much rage about the game, that I was dumbfounded.

I figure were Nintendo to ever introduce some sort of VA, the same reaction would happen, but once people heard the VAs (assuming they did it right), then they would praise Nintendo for "evolving" or what not. I actually found this fandub to be rather well done. Only shows how much potential lies in professional VAs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgfMRlGC5CA#t=45s

With all that being said, I think VAs can definitely add to the emotion, lore, and "I'm paying more attention" to the game. There's just something off when I have to read giant walls of text, the character's lips are moving, but nothing is coming out but grunts.

And I know Miyamoto always saw Link as a person for us to connect too and help us immerse ourselves into the game, but I never saw that. There are so many things Link does that I would not care for or would have never done. I still see Link as his own character, just like how I see other silent protagonists as their own character.
 

Vermanubis

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I personally think people are afraid of change. No offense to Nintendo fans, but it seems like they seem to throw a **** storm when any major change shows up. I remember when the graphics/art style for SS were revealed, there was so much rage about the game, that I was dumbfounded.

I figure were Nintendo to ever introduce some sort of VA, the same reaction would happen, but once people heard the VAs (assuming they did it right), then they would praise Nintendo for "evolving" or what not. I actually found this fandub to be rather well done. Only shows how much potential lies in professional VAs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgfMRlGC5CA#t=45s

With all that being said, I think VAs can definitely add to the emotion, lore, and "I'm paying more attention" to the game. There's just something off when I have to read giant walls of text, the character's lips are moving, but nothing is coming out but grunts.

And I know Miyamoto always saw Link as a person for us to connect too and help us immerse ourselves into the game, but I never saw that. There are so many things Link does that I would not care for or would have never done. I still see Link as his own character, just like how I see other silent protagonists as their own character.
Like I said in the OP, VAs are the obvious choice to do that, but I think everyone can agree that Zelda isn't a game that necessitates explicit emotional outlining. I consider Zelda, in its way of expressing the characters and their relationships minimalistically, is like a picture. Now, why would a painter, after having painted an intricately symbolic piece, detail every piece of the picture and write a monologue to accompany it?

There's a time and place for everything, and just because VAs add emotional depth to games that <are> emotionally developed doesn't mean it can successfully replace the wacky thematics that Zelda has matured on. I'm not by any means a Zelda purist; I didn't give a two ****s when the art styles changed. I thought it was spectacular and showed a good faith effort to keep the series dynamic in as many ways as possible; but, to me, adding VA actually subtracts from the dynamics. Communication is an infinitely broad topic, and I think it's agreeable to say that dialogue is only one of many avenues to take to tell a story. There's nothing inherently interesting about VA, as it's direct and obvious. I see it as doing nothing more than stigmatizing and typecasting the characters, like it did to Samus.
 

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I just look at Zelda and see two things.

1. The lore is clearly established and definitely shows how much fun (or stressful) it can be to dive into, arrange the timeline, examine the pieces of information that are hidden through conversations from NPCs and etc.

2. The story, while very formulaic is getting better bit by bit as the series has progressed. I have played(ing) SS, and I do enjoy what the story has presented so far. At some point though, I just feel like the story is gonna need a new element to dive deeper. Like I said, it gets rather annoying for me personally, when I stare at long walls of text, and then I look to see the character models lips moving, but nothing coming out. The games are also becoming more cinematic by the series, and it's hard to keep the characters silent, while increasing the role of cinematics.

So unless Nintendo innovates and goes in an completely new direction, the "more" they keep putting into the same formulaic game, the more I feel like they are going closer towards VAs.
 
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