If you aren't learning to Dash Pivot Cancel with Zelda, you probably should

[S2]

Hey everyone, I felt this deserved it's own topic since it could potentially be a big deal for Zelda and this board hasn't really had this discussed at all. If you don't check the tactics board you probably didn't see it.

Dash Pivot Canceling was found by SamuraiPanda about 2 weeks ago and lets you cancel your pivot into any attack (most useful with smashes at the moment).

Why is this important? Because unlike many universal ATs which give very little or no effects when used with Zelda (cough snakeboosting), this works really well on her.

First, directly from the tactical discussion board is SamuraiPanda's own description

This AT is performed by dashing, then performing a pivot, but holding forward a little bit after the pivot. Its different for every character, but while you turn around and start moving forward, there is a window that you can cancel the pivot into a something (I usually do it with forward smash or down smash, although it also works to some extent with tilts). Here is where the Dash Pivot Cancel gets interesting. With the right timing, after pivoting and moving forward just a bit, do a forward smash in the opposite direction (its easiest to see with the Fsmash IMO), and your character will perform a slide while smashing!

And here are his video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZg0f8RTMOg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNyJQLOBP1M&feature=related

**The first video explains how to do it
**The second vid will show you what happens when you do this with Zelda (it's a character showcase).


Why is this important for Zelda?

Well

1.) She's got a fast pivot. Not that it matters all that much. But it's good for mindgames
2.) Although the window for input on Zelda DPC is smaller than some characters, the effect is actually quite nice. This has to due with spacing.


This has been discussed before, due to Zelda's hitboxes and lag startup/ending your spacing is always been important.

DPC allows Zelda to basically cancel her run into a small backwards slide that she can smash out of (or do other things out of).

This is especially useful for her forward Smash (the tilt is freakishly hard at this point, but I'm sure it's masterable since it's possible) and probably quite useful for her d-smash in certain situations. You can run towards an opponent and pivot into a small slide backwards while throwing out a f-smash in front of you.


The technique is new and even at a tournament last week I went to, no one had adopted DPC much into their game. But the technique does have big potential. It's probably a matter of time before someone (probably a Metaknight or Squirtle player since those characters benefit tons from this) starts abusing this in tourney matches.

Obviously the biggest applications are
1.) Mindgames
2.) Spacing
3.) Giving Zelda another approach strategy (which is awesome because that's one of her most glaring weaknesses. Keep in mind this isn't a solution to her lack of approaches, just another little thing that helps her).


Feel free to discuss applications, mindgame potentials, etc. Remember that this is a universal AT, so keep this discussion Zelda-centric.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

so you can do this by running forward hitting and holding back on the joy stick and then when they pivot press f-smash smash? or is there more to it?

Also thanks for posting this s2

 

[S2]

Yeah, you do this by running forward and pressing away to initiate the pivot.

What you need to do is hold backwards and Zelda (or any character) will get a little slide. The cool thing is that you can press the c-stick forward while holding back and she will do a f-smash while sliding away from the opponent.

The timing window for an input and slide length are different for each character, so while some benefit greatly from this (Squirtle), others get no benefit whatsoever (ZSS).

Zelda's slide is pretty good (it's not the best, but still pretty useful... dunno all of the characters, she's probably a better than average. Not ridiculous like say Squirtle though). The timing window for her input though isn't all that big. It's not that hard though.

Keep in mind that the slide length isn't predetermined. You'll slide more/less depending on your timing.

I've been having trouble d-smashing out of it with Zelda (easy as Pie with Meta). Maybe it's not possible to, but I'm hoping that my timing is just off.

If you haven't tried DPC before, try it with Yoshi first then Metaknight. Yoshi especially has a very forgiving input window and has very pronounced results when you do it right.

And yeah, SamuraiPanda found this. I'm simply posting it here, since it never made it to this board.

 

[mr_kennedy44]

Interesting. I might use this.

 

[Darkmusician]

Very nice very nice.

 

[goodkid]

Hmm, I'll try this.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

i have been trying it and i have trouble with the d-smash as well i have not been able to do it yet.

Also i can't slide nearly as much as panda could with squirtle (he slides just not as much) i guess i just need to practice it more

PS: if anyone gets good with this with zelda who can record it do you mind posting your video here so i and others can compare are skill at doing it. (i know zelda was in the panda video but she was only there for a short amount of time) thanks you if anyone does this

 

[popsofctown]

this looks incredible, and looks to have lots of potential. I could be wrong, but, I think this could be something really useful for Zelda.

Wolf really really really comes to mind. You could dash at him, do the back slide just as he predictably fsmashes, and then hit him with your fsmash.

This greatly expands Zeldas ability to "wall" with her fsmashes. (spamming an fsmash to keep someone away). I'm not advocating the use of the tactic, which usually comes up when i'm panicing, I'm just pointing out that the helps you build an even more effective wall. And more spacing is usually good spacing for Zelda.

 

[brawlerbrad91]

so technically, do a fsmash pressing backwards after pivoting i'm guessing, or else, you'd be smashing at nothing? If i understand correctly.

 

[Icy_Eagle]

i have been trying it and i have trouble with the d-smash as well i have not been able to do it yet.

Also i can't slide nearly as much as panda could with squirtle (he slides just not as much) i guess i just need to practice it more

PS: if anyone gets good with this with zelda who can record it do you mind posting your video here so i and others can compare are skill at doing it. (i know zelda was in the panda video but she was only there for a short amount of time) thanks you if anyone does this

that's because squirtle is the only one to slide that far (afaik)

 

[popsofctown]

I practiced for a good while today. This is really hard... Is it easier with the C-stick? I use C-stick for tilts. You can't tiltstick to do it, as someone speculated. Tiltstick during pivot always makes a jump... for some reason.

However, i can pretty firmly say that Zelda can do an Ftilt in the pivot. It's actually pretty easy... I did it while attempting to do the fsmash out of the pivot.

 

[popsofctown]

so technically, do a fsmash pressing backwards after pivoting i'm guessing, or else, you'd be smashing at nothing? If i understand correctly.

I'm going to describe the input as precisely as i can, because it's hard to understand.
This is for a right one.
1. Smash the stick right to go into a normal dash.
2. Smash the stick left to initiate a pivot.
3. There are a few frames in that pivot where you are allowed to do an Fsmash to the right. You may smash the stick right and hit A, or use the C stick. I think you are also allowed to Fsmash left, but why would you want to?(?). You are also permited to downsmash.
There's not many of the frames, some of the frames will cause you to do an instant Fsmash. Some of the frames will cause an Fsmash and a backwards slide.
Not that the Fsmash isn't actually coming instantly out of the dash, because there is X number of frames where you are waiting for the appropriate input window.

If you input the smash attack too late or too early, i believe the results are the same: You'll complete the pivot, and maybe do something because of bad input (especially since there's probably some buffering going on during that pivot)

 

[S2]

I know that if you hit any attack after holding away too long after the pivot... you'll see get a dash attack.

Keep in mind that this involves not only the pivot, but holding backwards a little too long (confusing since holding backwards is what initiates the pivot).

If your dash attacking then you're being too slow and inputing after the attack window is closed.

It's possible to f-smash with almost no slide and with a big slide after a pivot. It just depends on when in the attack window you use the f-smash.

If you pivot and hold away you'll see the actual slide even if you're not doing any attacks.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

that's because squirtle is the only one to slide that far (afaik)

i know i ment when i tried it with squirtle i could not slide that far

 

[Tsuteto]

Played around with it. No, you cannot do an up or down smash out of the pivot cancel. You can only do forward smash. However, with the likes of fox trotting, running away, Farore's Wind, stopping momentum for a tilt, it still adds that much variety to Zelda.

I'll be trying this at the next tourney.

 

[S2]

Yeah, I mentioned that I couldn't d-smash out of it, I'll take it that if you can't either then its probably due to an inability to (since obviously the timing shouldn't be different regardless of what attack you do).

I think you can grab out of it (double check?), but otherwise it appears that F-smash is the only real option. You cannot use B-moves either. I haven't tested tilts to see if they register, but they are very hard to do unless your A-sticking, something practically no Zelda player does.

It appears that the possible moves depend on character. Others like Meta can d-smash out of this. So far the only confirmed move Zelda can do is f-smash.

 

[Tsuteto]

Only lightly tested, which lead to other testing but blargh. I don't want to be awake right now, but I am.

Seriously though, try d-smashing with Zelda without holding the opposite direction like you're supposed to for an f-smash. You'll notice her "flinch" and then stand up straight slowly. The only two moves you can do while your character is sliding is the hyphen smash and now this for an f-smash. You cannot do a d-smash it seems.

However... I am noticing that EVERY AT in the game is abusing a glitch of cancelling one move into another by some use of the c-stick...

 

[SofaKingRetarded]

What are you guys doing with this though. Are you using it as an approach for Zelda? I don't really understand how to apply it into my game.

 

[Tsuteto]

Let's say you know someone is going to grab the edge, then roll. You can use this to make it look like you'll be too far, but with the slide it sets you up perfectly to strike them with an f-smash.

Just one example.

 

[goodkid]

Yeah, I'm not really sure how this move will work well either. I'll find a way or if someone else has more advice that would be appreciated.

 

[Aeyr]

Found out that this wasn't hard to pull off as I thought but incorporating it into gameplay is another story o.O. I'm gonna keep trying and see if I can find a good point to use it.

 

[S2]

Yeah, the technical part of it is easy.

I don't really know what to expect as far as applications. DPC is still a relatively new discovery and no Zelda player really has had time to figure it out mindgame wise.

Like any new discovery, this might not end up benefitting Zelda that much. We don't know. It might a lot. But anything is good at this point because Zelda, unfortunately, can become a rather predictable character. I assume it'll take some time/effort to learn how and when this can be applied safely and with what othe basic strats it'll go well with.

 

[Obaby]

Hi guys, long time reader first time poster. Yea I'm a Zelda main and I've been incorporating the DPC into my game with Zelda (only fsmash).

I found it useful vs a pikachu player. After punishing him for using his spark for 2 stocks, I could dash in and pivot. When he downsmashed, or attempted to shield a dash attack I was able to fsmash him.

Also, I used it to play mindgames vs a lucas player, to much less success thanks to PK Fire, but if I wasn't so predictable im sure i could of forced a mistake

Even though both players were way below my skill level, neither are easy kills, so maybe you could incorporate it to fake a shieldgrab and fsmash when they drop shield (most players will when they see a pivot)

 

[popsofctown]

I think you can grab out of it (double check?), but otherwise it appears that F-smash is the only real option. You cannot use B-moves either. I haven't tested tilts to see if they register, but they are very hard to do unless your A-sticking, something practically no Zelda player does.
So far the only confirmed move Zelda can do is f-smash.

Yay, I'm "practically no Zelda player"! i'm not being sarcastic... no one else on the boards has confessed to A-sticking except me.
By the way, i tried to tilt using my precious A-stick, but it doesn't work with DPCs. If you use the A-stick during a pivot you will jump, end of story.

Anyway..

I made a big discovery just now. In addition to the confirmed F-smash, I have definitely confirmed Ftilt. I can do it pretty consistently now, I can DPC Fsmash or DPC Ftilt.

in english, instead of pressing a plus smash the stick during the pivot, you must smash the stick, wait a little, then tap a.

{The input:
1. Smash the movement stick for the dash.
2.Smash the movement stick back for the pivot.
3. AS FAST AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE, smash the movement stick to the original dash direction.
**for anyone who doesn't know, or hasn't realized this yet, if the stick has already been pushed all the way in one direction before an A button is inputted, you will do a tilt in that direction. (if that original push caused you to start a dash, you will probably do a dash attack instead though).
**smash attacks are inputted by pressing A and the direction at the same time, or if the A button was pressed just before or just after the stick.
** Step three had to be very fast because the frames for attacking during the pivot come pretty early
4. Wait the minimum amount of after step 3 for the game to no longer consider A input smash attack input
5. Tap a. You do a tilt.}

 

[Luthien]

I've been trying it out with okay results. I haven't mastered it yet, but I've been able to pull it off against CPUs. It's especially fun to watch only the last hit of the fsmash make contact.

Tsuteto's comment about how to punish ledgerolls got me thinking of a few tech-chasing/roll-spamming applications, especially considering how long the fsmash lasts and where the hitbox is located. I'm also thinking that the accidental dash attack could be used to punish rolls as well.

At any rate, I bet there's little point in trying this on wifi. Stupid lag.

 

[PK-ow!]

Only lightly tested, which lead to other testing but blargh. I don't want to be awake right now, but I am.

Seriously though, try d-smashing with Zelda without holding the opposite direction like you're supposed to for an f-smash. You'll notice her "flinch" and then stand up straight slowly. The only two moves you can do while your character is sliding is the hyphen smash and now this for an f-smash. You cannot do a d-smash it seems.

However... I am noticing that EVERY AT in the game is abusing a glitch of cancelling one move into another by some use of the c-stick...

This is not a glitch.

I recognize this is not a trivial claim. I really mean that I think, that there is no way these were unintended interactions. They work out too well.
I think more consideration is put into the development of these games than some people may imagine.

I mean hyphen smash is obviously intended. Dash boost perhaps not. True pivot? And the DPC... I dunno, these ring too much of intelligence. It's clear that the IASA frames on pivoting were intended. So how far is it from that to putting in some allowance for smashes?

The fact of its privileging of fsmash is only a confirmed prediction of the theory that they were thinking of control stick inputs. You know how they allow some milliseconds of difference between a smash and an A input? This translates into stutter stepping. I say the DPC into fsmash is the developers again thinking "okay so if people dash and flick and flick back to smash, what do they get?"

@Luthien: The thing about Wifi is, if latency is all you have, you can still input commands perfectly. It's all relative timing. Of course lag - a skippy connection that discards some inputs - is a different matter.
But the point is moot. Wifi sucks.

 

[Downshift]

Is this something that only works with the CGC's Cstick or does the Wiimote+Nunchuk's Dpad work also?

 

[S2]

So I was trying this out in a tournament against a complete newb and I did manage to land it as I wanted (run forward, f-smash as I slid backwards when he tried to counter my approach). Keep in mind this is only once.

I think that this is going to become a very situational tactic as your easily punished by someone who knows the timing (the minimum run commitment before you can do it). DPC seemed pretty hard to work into a real match effectively, although I'm not giving up on it.

 

[SinkingHigher]

I've tried doing it time and time again. Neither Sheik nor Zelda slide. They just charge up and do it.

 

[S2]

I don't know about Sheik, but if your doing it correctly then Zelda should before doing her f-smash.

Keep in mind with Zelda that the timing window isn't that large and that only the f-smash works (other smashes are possible with most characters, but she can't DPC into an u-smash or d-smash)

Now I mentioned that the timing window is small... if you hit the c-stick too early than Zelda will simply f-smash without the slide. If that's happening, then your not waiting long enough. Remember you have to pivot, HOLD away and then f-smash after a brief moment (this is what causes the slide).

If your doing it right, then it should be quite apparent. A good way to tell a mistake is
-If Zelda isn't sliding your doing it too early
-If you do a running attack you're doing it too late.

 

[SinkingHigher]

Alright, thanks for the help. :D

I'll try again.

 

[Veggie123]

I tried this out yesterday, and it doesn't seem too hard to pull off once you get the timing down.

The best way to get the max slide effect I believe is wanting to wait until Zelda turns all the way around before you smash the c-stick. A good indicator on letting you know the window is closed is when Zelda actually starts running the other way. It's different for other characters though, like Yoshi's is a bit more lenient and he can run a good amount in the opposite direction before initiating the smash.

As far as applications go, it seems pretty decent to use to punish an opponent if they're trying to short hop past you...and maybe when they're using a dash attack, but most of the time they're able to outprioritize the smash (at least when I used it). Like others have stated before though, it's probably best to use sparringly.

 

[S2]

I'm still having a pretty hard time making this effective in tournament matches.

The problem being that the startup (the amount you have to run before you can do it) makes it hard to apply. Especially when your against anyone with projectiles.

I'm not saying this doesn't have it's uses, but it might not be as great as I was originally hoping. Still, I'm going to persevere and keep trying, it's technically quite easy... but hard to incorproate well into your mindgames.

 

[Tsuteto]

*wonders*

What about b-reversals? How effective is that?

 

[sFoster]

The problem with this move, from my perspective, is that you have to put yourself in harms way before you can use it.

Zelda basically moves forward, and then shifts backwards to hit where she was standing.
It's a decent slide, but it's not sonic-fast and with my timing I would end up being punished for trying it.

 

[Luthien]

Some interesting stuff has happened in my practice with this move. Sometimes when I mess around and use the c-stick to DPC, Zelda does her fsmash the other way while sliding. So Zelda slides FORWARD while fsmashing.

So, if you're running right:

Hold right
??????
Hold left
C-stick right
??????

When I did this, Zelda kept sliding left, and fsmashed LEFT. So instead of using this as bait, you could run away from an enemy and launch yourself towards them unexpedtedly. Sadly, I'm not sure why this happens. ? = what I was trying to do, but I might have done some stuff differently. For example, I THINK I held left, but I might have released it. Also, I'm pretty sure I c-sticked right, but it registered as left for some reason.

This has occured more than once for me, so I know it's definitely possible. Also, I'm pretty sure I'm not the first to discover this as I recall seeing a fluke one occur in Samurai Panda's vid. So if everyone already knew this, please let me know so I don't have to feel like a total idiot for too long.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I'm still having a pretty hard time making this effective in tournament matches.

The problem being that the startup (the amount you have to run before you can do it) makes it hard to apply. Especially when your against anyone with projectiles.

I'm not saying this doesn't have it's uses, but it might not be as great as I was originally hoping. Still, I'm going to persevere and keep trying, it's technically quite easy... but hard to incorproate well into your mindgames.

I love it. it's just one more thing you can do out of a dash. And a lot of people never expect it.

 

[S2]

Interesting Luthien.

Now we just need to figure out how it's done exactly. Before I'd tried finding a way to slide and f-smash forward, but I didn't spend to much time seeing if it's possible.

Regular DPC, I don't think is going to pay off as much as originally hoped due to the hard setup.

But if you could slide forward f-smashing from a run, that'd be freaking sweet. Since the f-smash is both safer and longer ranged than your running attack.

 

[Luthien]

Yeah, but the thing is, you need to "retreat" ("advance" if a regular DPC is intended) before you can use this technique, at least from my experience. Sad how all of these techniques require you to head the opposite desired direction before trying to execute them.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Still, Zelda's Fsmash has enough range to hit despite the retreat.

it's great if your opponent attempted to spot dodge or sheild grab a dash attack because Fsmash will counter both of those things.