NinjaFoxX
Banned via Warnings
archive thread for the matchup threads xD
the Ice Climber Match up Thread
im gonna take the job of handling the match ups.
creds. to KawaiiBunny for the chart
so anyways lets begin.
Bowser
Ratio-8:2
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Bowser has range, power, size, and can edgeguard fairly well.
I'm not sure how safe on the block his moves are, but he has his Jab, Forward Tilt, and F-Air to outrange the Climbers. Another move to watch out for is Up-B. It doesn't kill like it used to, but it comes out fast, and has invincibility frames.
He has many KO options. If we are from above, his Up-Air has deceptive range. Up-Smash has lots of priority and has 2 hitboxes. Forward Smash isn't that reliable, but it can hit twice, and do massive damage. Up-Tilt comes out fast. Bowser Bomb from the ground combos into itself at times and Back Air outranges the Climbers. Even Side-B can kill them at heigher percents (I'm not talking about the Bowsercide here.) It's fairly situational. Down Smash is good for killing because it has power and is multi-hit. It's pretty hard to DI out of and can eaisly split the Climbers.
Bowser is he heaviest character in the game. He's the hardest to kill horizontally, due to his size and Aerial Movement speed.
Bowser has edgeguarding options. Bowser Bomb cancel (I think when it land on the edge.) and Bowser Bomb sweetspoting is devastating, leaving a vertical wall of power coming towards the ledge. Spaced Forward Airs and Forward Tilt/Down Tilt all hit the Climbers out of Squall Hammer. Flamethrower is commonly used in this situation, as it racks up damage and makes it difficult to grab the ledge. Down Air is multi-hit with a landing hitbox. If this connects, it will split the Climbers.
Unfortunately, it's his size that does him in in this matchup.
He's the eaisest character to Forward chain throw. It leave a bit of room for error, due to his character frame. He has trouble getting out of Blizzard Walls and Squall Hammer can chain into itself and a grab at low percents. Bowser isn't that hard to grab in my experience.
Squall Hammer also sets up for Juggling opportunities. Up- Air's destroy Bowser at low percents. Up Tilt at low percents sets up for a grab if they don't DI properly. Down-Smash can also hit him for way more damage then normal.
You can kill him up or down. He dies at the top easier than Snake, DK, and Dedede, but I'm not quite sure what the kill range is for Up-Smash on him. Meteor Smashing him is good, due to his lack of verticle height. This is assuming you get him to a reasonable percent.
His whole book of Grab tricks are severely ruined by Nana being at your side. With one Climber he can chaingrab you better than you can chaingrab him by release grabs. He can air release you into a Forward-Air, or a Side B. With Nana at your side, he loses the ability to chaingrab effectivly, and he can be hit out of Side-B on the way down. There's also the chance that Bowser grabs the wrong one (A good Bowser shouldn't suicide with Nana if they pay attention. Have you seen Nana's DI?) If it happens, Popo can get to Bowser and punish before he even hits the ground. Nana can punish Bowser out of his Side-B, only if Bowser lands by Nana.
It's 8-2 in the Ice Climber's favor. Bowser has way too much going against him.
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Bowser can turtle with his tilts and jabs all day. The range on these are bigger then you think. Fire breath can be used the same way Ice Climber's Blizzard can, but it has more usability.
The entire match is based upon Bowser avoiding the grab. If he avoids the grab, he'll win. If you grab him, he gets *****.
70-30 max.
Best stage to use:FD
Best throw to use:f-throw(possibly buffered)
Captain Falcon
Ratio-8:2
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I can see a bunch of ways to contrast Falcon's running speed with Sonic's (call me obsessed). Falcon's slower than Sonic, obviously, so grabbing him is somewhat manageable (on his own if you can predict right, not just compared to Sonic), and using desynched moves for camping will still deal him some damage if he tries to approach from the ground. He does, however, have an easier time than Sonic when it comes to killing a separated Nana, as his Knee, while nerfed, still works well enough if sweetspotted, leaving Popo little time to catch up.
However, Falcon still holds very little against the ICs, despite the aforementioned advantage in gimping Nana. Many of his moves, while powerful against the lightweight ICs, are laggy enough that they are easy to prepare for and punish with a CG. Also, Falcon's lack of priority leaves him few options for approaching. Desynch-camping will deal damage if he approaches on the ground, and his aerial moves are easy to see coming. Falcon falls somewhat fast, so he can be comboed effectively, and his recovery is sub-par, leaving the ICs room to edgehog/guard him if they can get him off the stage.
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Falcon can do a few things. He runs fast and has a good juggling game. N-air is one of his key approaches, and can split the Climbers. His jab is also good. He can edgeguard pretty well as far as I know through Up-Airs, B-Airs, and aerial Falcon Kicks.
Up-Tilt and Down-Tilt are also kind of safe to use when properly spaced. Up-Tilt can hit you out of Squall Hammer. D-air to Knee still works, and will at least separate the Climbers.
Falcon has kill moves. However, most of these are unreliable. All his Smashes are slow, with enough end lag to punish them. The knee needs to be sweetspotted and has little range. Falcon Punch is extremely telegraphed, and can easily destroy Nana when separated.
Falcon doesn't have much priority in his attacks. This and his general lack of range make it a bit eaiser to grab him, and he can be chaingrabbed pretty eaisly (SoPo can Down Throw Falcon up to at least 70% due to his high falling speed.)
Falcon is deceptively hard to kill off the top due to his weight and falling speed. Killing him on the sides on smaller stages may work better. He has a decent recovery.
Juggling him shouldn't be much of a problem. Squall Hammer sets up well. Blizzard ***** his approaches and does major damage.
best stage to use:FD
best throw to use:f-throw(possibly buffered)
Charizard
Ratio-55:45
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He moves quickly along the ground (while dashing) and is slow in the air.
Charizard has nice range on his Tilts and Jab. Down Tilt and a tippered Forward Tilt can be used to kill at higher percents. And Charizard's Smashes are powerful, but slow, with the exception of Up-Smash.
Charizard's F-Air has an odd hitbox. From far away it doesn't make you flinch, but up close it has good knockback. Back Air hits twice when sweetspotted, but lacks range. It's pretty strong. And he has a spike in his D-Air, but it's slow. Up-Air is fast with range.
He's one of the few characters that can glide, but he moves very slowly when he does.
Charizard can edgeguard pretty well with F-Air, B-Air, and even Fly Attack. Flamethrower is used by the edge too.
Charizards love to use Rock Smash. Has crazy knockback when sweetspotted, can do about 45 damage if the entire attack connects, and it ***** shields. It can also split the Climbers.
Fly Attack has Super Armor, and is a multihit move. It's possible to DI before the last hit connects, but it can split them easily, and the last hit can KO.
Charizard has awesome grab range and good throws, but doesn't have any quick throws. This severely hurts his grab game when Nana's around
Knowing the range of his attacks helps in this matchup. I think you should fight him like you would Bowser. Grabbing him shouldn't be too difficult I think. He's big, so Forward throw chains shouldn't be difficult. And hitting him with Blizzards/Squalls, and juggling shouldn't be hard either.
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Charizard has many ways to fight IC's. He can flamethrower wall just as well as IC's can blizzard wall. Not only does this prevent IC grabs but it also nullifies approaches for them. So besides a blizzard/flamethrower camping game, Charizard does have many things he can do to beat out the IC's grab game.
Rock smash is big punishment for nana since her shield is unreliable, which makes for easy separation and high damage. Camping with bairs, flamethrower, and rock smash is a pretty good defense IMO. Charizard's dtilt and ftilt outrange IC's COMPLETELY, though they do have a priority advantage sometimes because of hammers.
Guys, just watch out for Charizard's dtilt because that will nick you guys a lot when you try to approach.
Charizard's grab range is way better, but IMO his grabs aren't necessarily fast enough so IC's can probably jab or c-stick him when they get grabbed so it's all good.
Anyway, the main thing charizard has in this matchup is a solid defensive game that can equal the defensive game of the ic's. Both have ways to nullify approaches, and both have a limited number of approaches because of that. Charizard has plenty of ways to prevent ic's from simply running in and getting a grab (Unlike Ivy, who is destroyed by grabs because of lack of options.)
Charizard's game is focused around his ranged flamethrower and rock smash. It can defend the approaches from any character. I actually like to consider him a defensive and tactical character, there's way too many dumb Charizards who just throw out hopeful fsmashes and usmashes just waiting to be punished. He certainly has the power, but it's a matter of looking for those opportunities to use them. Other than that, he has to rely on his flames, rock smash, jabs, dtilt, ftilt, bair, and pretty much everything fast. Heck, I still see charizards who use other throws besides uthrow at low % which is a dummy move.
I guess most charizard players out there will be a breeze for you guys since he is hard to master, but take it from someone who previously mained IC's and now mains PT.
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Their flamethrower shorthopped and shorthopped fair make it very hard to approach a charizard normally. Rock smash also makes things harder because it eats so much from your shield. The only weakness that the Ice Climbers can exploit Charizard with is good bair edge guarding and CGing since he is a huge target. Juggling Charizard is another thing to look up to. Blizzard has about the same range as flamethrower and fair so it isn't as good of a spacing tool as it could be. A lot of approaches that IC's have make them Rock Smash food since their bodies are in the range of Rock Smash before most approaches of their's can do anything. This match would depend on who can predict what the best.
Best stage to use:FD
Best throw to use:f-throw(possibly buffered)
Diddy Kong
Ratio-5:5
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Good IC players will use ice blocks really well to block the bananas and know how to handle them. Plus if diddy gets grabbed its all over. It's a totally momentum based matchup, if one makes a mistake then he gets punished for a pretty long time. Dash attack separates them both, and diddy's throws are pretty fast and separates them as well. Ice climbers do have a glide toss as well but its length is kinda poor but it still has its usefulness. I hate this matchup... alot. Diddy just has to really fish for opportunities with the nanerz and the IC's really need that grab.
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Against IC Diddy's bananas can be both an asset and a pain. Because there are two of you, it may be harder for him to banana slide you. On the downside, If a banana is thrown at you and hits you, it can mess up your synched or desynched game play.
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As far as the stage goes, I would be wary of FD because there's nothing to mess up banana combos. If you slip on a banana at Battlefield, half the time it'll end up on a platform above you, and not many Diddy's can continue the "combo" from here. CGing on a Battlefield platform is something you may want to practice...
Best stage to use:Battlefield or other stages with many platforms
Best throw to use:d-throw/b-throw(possibly stationary on a platform)
Donkey Kong
Ratio-6:4
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Donkey Kong is very strong, heavy, and deceptively fast. His biggest advantage in this matchup is his range.
A good DK can make it difficult to get inside. His Forward-Tilt has really good range. His Down-Tilt has more use in this matchup because it has little less range, for more speed, quicker cooldown, and a chance of causing tripping, which isn't good. Up-Tilt is fast, and covers above and behind him. It's a good setup move, that beats out anything we throw from above.
His Smashes are powerful, but are situational in this matchup. Down-Smash can be used out of a Jab-Cancel. It covers both sides of him as well as above him. If he misses or if it's powershielded, the end lag is enough where he can get grabbed.
Up-Smash also kills early, but you have to be directly above him in order to get hit. There's also ususally a better option than Up-Smash if the Climbers are directly above DK.
Forward Smash will be one of the main used kill moves. It's his slowest smash, but it has range, and is strong. Plus the hitbox stays out for a while if it connects with anything (A single Climber or shield.) making it easy to run into (especially Nana.)
DK will try to force the action into the air. While his ground game is good, it's not enough to keep him from getting grabbed. His air game isn't the best, but it's enough to beat out the Climbers.
DK has many ways to do this. Up-Tilt is one of the ways. His most famous one is probably the Down-B. It has deceptive range, set knockback, and deals good damage. It's nearly impossible to punish while on the ground. This move destroys shields, and pushes the Climbers back too far to punish if they are hit in their shield. The best thing about this move, is that it forces the Climbers into the air. If it doesn't hit them into the air, they have to get into the air to attack DK.
DK's Up and Back throws are probably fast enough to split the Climbers, though I highly doubt anyone would try that.
If they do grab you, it will be with the Cargo Carry. The lower DK's damage is, the more attacks DK can take before dropping the Solo Climber. At higher percents, a smash may be enough for him to drop the Climbers.
In the air, DK has his B-air. It has awesome range, and can be used as an approach. It can be used twice in on shorthop, so it has little cooldown. It's also pretty fast (frame 7). I've managed to powershieldgrab it before, but I don't know if you can do that if DK spaces well.
Up-Air is very fast (frame 5), can juggle at low percents, and can kill at high percents. It also has high priority.
If DK is facing forward while in the air, expect him to airdodge or N-Air. F-Air is too laggy to use on a grounded opponent most of the time.
His edgeguard game is probably good. His B-Air can serve as a wall of pain at low percents, and has the range to hit the Climbers out of Squall Hammer. His Tilts can also hit the Climbers out of Squall Hammer. Also, DK has 3 spikes (D-Air. F-Air, Side-B.)
DK is hard to edgeguard for most characters. He has a linear recovery, but his Up-B has invincibility frames on the startup, and can do a lot of damage if you don't DI out of it. It last a long time, making it difficult to edgehog him. They can cancel their landing lag of their Up-B by hovering close to the ground, so they won't be recovering high.
DK's Giant Punch (Neutral B,) is probably his best kill move. It has insane range, with low cooldown, making it difficult to punish. When it's fully charged, it is a great damage builder at low percents, with the ability to kill at high percents. If DK winds up his punch 9 times, it will have more knockback than a fully charged punch. Watch out for reverse Giant Punches.
It doesn't take much for DK to take out Nana if the Climbers become separated, and he can do fairly well against a Solo Climber.
DK's moveset becomes severly limited because his moves are either too laggy and/or situational. He's also a huge target, so he has trouble getting by blizzard walls. Squall Hammer works well to build great damage and set up juggling opportunities. He can easily hit you out of Squall Hammer so be smart about it. One use of Squall Hammer is when he uses Down-B, you can Squall out of a short hop. Juggling him with Up-Air is no problem, due to his size. He also vulnerable from under.
Like FrozenPopo said, you don't really need the chaingrabs, but if you do manage to grab him, then the Forward Throw chaingrabs the best way to go. He's a big targets, so he leaves a bit of room for error.
The best way to kill him is to send him downwards. Spiking him works well because of his lack of vertical height in his jumps. Killing him upwards is your next best chance, because his horizontal recovery gains a lot of distance.
One stage you definitely want to avoid against DK is Brinstar. That is easily DK's strongest stage and one of the Ice Climber's worst. Platform stages are bad too.
Best stage to use:FD or Yoshis Island(brawl)
Best grab to use:F-throw(possibily buffered)
Falco
Ratio-65:35
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65:35 IC's
this is a hard matchup for falco, i wouldn't play it if i had the chance to CP a different character. but if you have to, your best chances of winning are just camping with lasers and spacing with IAPs. if you want to win, play like a complete ***! other things to remember include trying to kill nana first if they are seperated, and never try to start a CG or fight the IC up close, especially on the ground. in the air, you have an advantage, however, make sure to DI if you see/predict the shield so that you don't get shield grabbed. taking the fight on top of a platform is also smart as it weakens thir grab game. IAP'ing back and forth between platforms is a pretty good idea. your KO moves are the same as always. also you should remember that the IC's (desynched or not) can grab you out of the phantasm with proper timing so don't mindlessly spam it.
basically, to win this matchup with falco, you HAVE to play extremely smart and make as few mistakes as you can, because 1 grab= 1 stock. camping and IAPs are key.
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His lasers alone completely dismantles your approach. They go over ice blocks, through blizzards, stops squall hammer, and disrupts any desynch attempt. SH phantasm is also a real pain to deal with since the IC's have no move to counter/punish it. Dair spike is devastating and will hit you straight out of your squall hammer if you try to recover with it, and it can even hit you out of the startup of belay.
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Campy Falcos can be annoying, but they do damage at a really slow rate and have a really hard time KOing ICs, while ICs only need one grab to KO Falco. It doesn't help Falco that pretty much all of his viable KO options can be punished with a grab.
Fox
Ratio-75:25
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Everyone knows that Fox is very quick. He moves quickly along the ground, and has quick attacks.
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I find his jab to be annoying sometimes, but it's easy to DI out of and has punishable end lag. F-tilt is safe on the block when spaced well and D-tilt probably is too. Up-Tilt is a good juggling move at low percents, and it links into other moves if you don't DI out.
His Smashes are decent. Down- Smash is fast (comes out on frame 5) and hits on both sides at the same time. It's best used to punish a roll, or out of D-Air. Forward-Smash is decent. It's has bad end lag, so it's not safe on the block. Everyone fears the Up-Smash, due to it's power and speed.
His aerials are quick but generally lack range. D-Air is a favored approach among Fox mains. It's multi-hit, which is always a problem and has a good chance of tripping at least one of the Climbers. It's not the best approach in ths matchup because the landing lag is enough where we can put our shield up before the next attack hits. And grabbing us is asking to be punished. F-Air can be annoying because it's split's the Climbers up well. A well placed N-Air can be safe if it lands behind the Ice Climbers shield, but it can be eaisly shieldgrabbed. B-Air has good speed and knockback, but poor range. Up-Air can kill, but not as well as Up-Smash does. I think D-Air beats it.
Fox's blaster can be annoying. It fires at a rapid pace, and doesn't make the enemy flinch. It also shoots Ice Blocks back, and can force an approach. Side-B is a form of recovery, but can be used as a quick get away, and pops the Ice Climbers in the air. The Reflector can reflect Blizzard, but it's not going to do much damage to us. It also can split the Ice Climbers up for a bit, but the low knockback won't help much.
Fox's best option if he wants to grab is B-Throw. It's his quickest throw, and it takes the other Climber more time to get back. A pivot grab to Back-Throw is hard to punish if Fox lands it.
Fox has a way he can gimp us out of our Up-B. If we tether the stage, his fast falling speed will allow him to drop down fast enough to hit Popo before he can grab the ledge. They can drop down and B-Air into the stage or Shine Spike us, which is guaranteed death. I'm not sure what he can do to Side-B (beside Shine Spike it,) but it's probably safer.
Fox is extremely light (5th lightest)and he falls really fast. These two combined attributes make him easy to chaingrab. His lack of safe approaches makes him pretty easy to grab too. His falling speed also makes him easy to juggle at low percents. He can stall with his Reflector on the way down, so be patient when he's falling. If he fast falls, shield and punish. If he airdodges normally, wait out the invincibiltity frames and attack or short hop Up-Air. If he uses the Reflector and has no jumps left, Up-Air should work, or Up-B for the kill.
Fox can be chaingrabbed by Sopo up to a bit over 60 if the throw is staled enough. A SoPo chain accross the stage to F-Smash leaves Fox in a very bad position. If he's below the stage, D-Tilt should send him out too far to recover. You want to force Fox to use Up-B. He has very poor DI after his Up-B is used. His Side-B will be used if he's over the stage. Blizzard beats out Fox's Side-B. Other moves, like Forward-Smash and Down-Smash beat out Side-B too. If he likes to land on the stage with Side-B, the best place to stand is right outside of Side-B's range. If they like to sweetspot the ledge, stand in a range where the edge of Blizzard can reach.
I think this matchup is 6-4 in the Ice Climbers favor, but 7-3 seems to be the general consensus.
Side note: Reflector is faster than our grab. Our standing grab comes out on frame 6, and our dash grab is slower.
Best stage to use:
Best grab to use:f-throw to -b-throw
Game & Watch
Ratio-35:65
Quote:
-Bair ***** hard
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-Nuff said
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Game and Watch has insane priority on his moves. His aerials can be very annoying. Game and Watch users love to use their Turtle (B-Air) to approach. Not only is it Multi-Hit, but it easily shield pokes, and has a landing hitbox that pops the opponent into the air. Powershielding the first possible hit will help to keep your shield up. Also keep your shield up before the landing hitbox connects. If you get caught in the B-Air, DI out as best as you can. It is possible to escape the hitbox and land before Game and Watch does. This may be common knowledge by now, but I've seen a few people not do anything when they get caught by B-Air, so I think it's worth mentioning.
N-Air is also an annoying attack. It's Multi-Hit, and when fresh does 17 damage. It's also a good juggling move, that can link into other attacks.
The Key (D-Air) is usually used high from above. Game and Watch has the ability to Dive or slow down on command. If they use it from directly above and you feel like attacking, Up-Tilt beats it and Up-Air can beat it or clash with it. This move also has a landing hitbox, so be careful when trying to attack/grab him right out of his landing lag.
Up-Air can be hard to deal with. It has an invisible hitbox that pushes opponents upward, and is really good for replenishing his moves. The Ice Climbers are susceptible to this due to their floaty nature, and their slow horizontal speed. You do not want to be above Game and Watch when you are in free fall.
On the ground he has many powerful attacks. Most of which have crazy Inturrupted as Soon as frames. His Jab can be DI'd out of pretty eaisly, and can hit from behind if you are standing right next to him. F-Tilt is rarely used, but has decent knockback and is a decent spacing tool. Up-Tilt is situational, but can juggle at low percents, and can set up for other moves. D-Tilt is a better spacing tool than F-Tilt, comes out on Frame 6, and has no coooldown frames, so they can use any move they want right after. It's a good move for stoping approaches, as it has a pretty big hitbox.
All of his smashes have Inturrupted as Soon as frames. All of his smashes are also not that quick, and can be blocked on reaction. They're also absurdly powerful, and have the ability to kill around 100. Up-Smash has ridiculous priority and is Game and Watch's strongest smash attack. Forward-Smash has a lingering hitbox. You can still get hit by the Flame when it's out. You can get hit by the stick also (extremely rare) and has good knockback too. D-Smash will probably be his best move for killing. It hits on both sides simultaneously, so rolling behind him is never a good idea. It has 2 separate hitboxes. The sweetspot will send you upwards, and can kill very early. The non-sweetspot is also powerful, and sends you at a odd angle. When separated, getting hit by the non-sweetspot will make it extremely difficult to recover. Due to the hitboxes, this has the ability to split the Climbers up as well.
His specials are situational. Chef (Neutral-B) has the ability to semi-spike when it connects up close, and is a decent zoning tool due to the random trajectories of the food. Side-B is also used rarely due to it's lack of speed, and randomness. All the numbers have different effects and uses. The Bucket (Down-B) probably won't be used in this matchup. While it is possible to bucket Blizzard, they have to wait until after 100 before they can kill with it. By then it's pretty useless. Also it's extremely punishable when the Climbers are dysynched.
Up-B is and awesome move. It allows Game and Watch to get out of many situations. He has invinciblity frames on his Up-B, and can attack out of it. The sides of Up-B can launch you in the air on startup if you are right next to him or in the air. If he does an attack out of his Up-B before the parachute appears, he will automatically fastfall, with the attack, which can allow for a quick attack. If he uses his Up-B on the Ground, he still has the ability to use his second jump.
Due to Game and Watch's recovery, he can come off the stage to gimp us if he wants. All of his aerials can knock us out of Side-B. His Up-B can be used as a finisher off stage as well. He can also wait on the stage and use Chef/Down-Tilt to knock us back off the stage. If you Up-B, be careful of him dropping down to attack you.
Game and Watch can't afford to grab us because all of his throws are slow. This ruins his techcase game, but killing for him isn't really that big a of problem due to his arsenal of powerful attacks.
Game and Watch can easily make Nana a non-factor once separated. Game and Watch does pretty well against SoPo. Getting grabbed isn't a good thing when SoPo. Down-Throw leads to a tech chase. It's possible to tech his Down-Throw. Up-Throw leads to Up-Air. If you can avoid getting hit by his smashes or grabbed, he may have trouble finishing you.
The one move we have that outprioritizes Game and Watch is Blizzard. It also outranges anything Game and Watch can do. Trying to force him to approach with Ice Blocks may not work well here, as D-Tilt is good at blocking enemy projectiles. Powershielding is very important in this matchup, as it makes it eaiser to get a grab in or punish him. Juggling also works decently, as he can't really D-Air through our attacks.
The best way to kill him is up I think. Game and Watch has a technique called Bucket Braking, which allows him to stop his aerial momentum, and survive for longer. Killing him off the top makes it more difficult for him to Bucket Brake. You can spike him off the edge too, but his Up-B will usually get him back to the stage. Chaingrabbing him shouldn't be too difficult.
I believe it is the stages that make this matchup even more difficult then it should be. Game and Watch can platform camp you all day, and can use the platforms to their advantage more than we can. Stages with ledges also give him a humongous advantage, because his ledge game is very good. Moving stages are good for him due to his mobility and Air Game. Avoid stages like Norfair and Rainbow Cruise. Game and Watch does very well on these stages and the Ice Climbers don't do well on either stage. Flat stages like Final Destination work well here.
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desynced blizzard outrange anything he can do, so the G&W will try to dair into you. you can have popo or nana short hop and uair if they try. If you can roll behind them during their bair you can get a free grab usually, ALWAYS try to powershield his dair cause that's a free grab son.
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Best Stage to use:FD,or anything with very few platforms
Best grab to use:d-throw to b-throw
Ganondorf
yes, i stole it from teh fox boards(couldnt find anything better.
Ratio - 95:5
Ike
Ratio - 4:6
Ivysaur
Ratio - 55:45
Ice Climbers
(lol, Dittos)- 5:5
Against someone who you can't exploit any strongpoint and weakpoint, it becomes very much a brawl of mindgames. Your greatest strengths are nulled, and your biggest weaknesses forgiven. There's little advice I can give, so here goes! Exploiting the near-meaningless recovery, downthrows by ledge into edgehog is the way to go. But to get there you're going to have to fight safe as you can without spamming blizzard, since its gonna be punished. Desynced SH blizzards THROUGH the opponent and hit them....D.Smashes every chance can't go wrong, but UpTilts will work good to defend against SH attacks and can also combo into upairs and a possible belay, yourself. grabbing is good against ICs, since its a miracle if their litle nubs called apendages can actually hit you anyway...and Projectiling with IBs are good, but better left as aerial pre-offenses. ICs tends to break out of combos well with his smaller size, average weight, and blizzards...so try to start early with UpAirs and finish him with what seems the most reliable. As a great offense a uair into a falling B.air is mighty sexy. It can turn around their anti-air movement(even though you're not facing them) and them snipe them with your hammers last minute.
Ditto matches donnot prove who is better, so don't be discouraged if you lose. It only means today they were better fighting IC vs. IC. What point is made in beating a character who you cannot stress IC's real advantages and disadvantages against? The very characteristics that makes them Ice Climbers?...I'll tell you what. Nothing...its like ICs are no longer ICs, but a souless vessle trapped in a psychological game of rock-paper-sciccors floating into the corners of the universe just waiting to implode-THATS WHAT!*#@!! >:O.........well, maybe not. But I thought it sounded cool.
Jigglypuff
Ratio - 55:45
Jigglypuff is pretty terrible on the ground. Its Jab comes out on frame 5 in has little range. It can be used to interrupt an attack. F-Tilt is pretty good speed. It comes out on frame 7, and has D-Tilt comes out on frame 10. It's pretty useless, as it doesn't set up for anything. Up-Tilt comes out on frame 11, and has Interrupted as Soon as Frames. It's a decent set up move most of the time.
Jigglypuff's smashes are slow enough that you can react to them. Down-Smash is it's fastest smash. The attack comes out on frame 14, and sends us out at a downward angle. When separated or as Sopo, this essentially means death if you are close to the edge and get hit by this. Up-Smash comes out on Frame 17. It has decent priority as it beats D-Air. Watch out for the boost smash. It slides surprisingly far, and it moves fast. F-Smash is its most powerful smash attack. It hits on Frame 16 and has good killing power.
Jiggypuff's Dash-Attack is worth mentioning. It comes out on frame 4, and can be used as a surprise kill move. In the Ice Climber's case, it will generally send us off stage and set up for a gimp kill.
Of course Jigglypuff will be in the air for almost the entire match. It's Jigglypuff's greatest strength and one of our weaknesses. Jigglypuff is the 2nd fastest character in the air. Its aerial acceleration is also really good, allowing it to weave in and out while attacking.
N-Air is a good move to knock us away. It has a deceiving hitbox as it reaches out pretty far in front, and its entire body acts as a hitbox. F-Air is disjointed and has good range. It comes out on frame 8, and is an excellent gimping tool. It also has kill power when unstated at higher percents. B-Air is weaker than F-Air, but it works the same as F-Air essentially. It can work as a wall of pain offstage. It can be used to approach on stage. It's quicker than F-Air and has less cooldown, so with good spacing it can link into itself numerous times. It also has less range. D-Air is a multi-hit move, that can split up the Climbers. It can cause tripping, and can still set up for a Rest attack or other moves. Up-Air juggles pretty well.
Jigglypuff's Rollout attack (Neutral B) has lot of knockback when charged. It moves fast and can kill early. Rollout is avoidable by jumping. Blizzard will always beat it out, so using a Blizzard wall protects you from Rollout. Side-B (Pound) has a lot of priority and lingers for long time. It pops the Climbers into the air. It also ***** shields (takes out half). Up-B (Sing) puts opponents to sleep. It has a small radius and only works when your in range on the ground. It can be canceled at the edge. It's useless move as it leaves it open to punishment.
Down-B (Rest) got nerfed in Melee, but still has its uses. It's Jiggypuff's quickest attack (frame 2.) It's still powerful (not nearly as powerful as N64/Melee though.) If you somehow manage to survive, a flower is left on your head, which does even more damage. It can kill around 70 or higher, and can be canceled by water. Rest also has invincibility frames for a little over half a second, and good Jigglpuff mains can interrupt an attack simply by resting you while you are attacking. Jigglypuff is left vulnerable for 3 seconds after initiating the attack, so if they whiff, it equals punishment. Also there's 2 Climbers, so the possibility of punishing is possible.
Jigglypuff has a good grab game, which is completely nullified by Nana standing by your side.
Offstage is a nightmare for the Ice Climbers in this matchup. It is most important to keep Nana by you. Jigglypuff ***** us offstage and it's too easy to Wall of Pain Nana. With Nana gone it makes it more difficult to dispose of Jigglypuff and get back onto the stage.
Jigglypuff generally lacks range. Our attacks have more range and priority, so it has to work around our attacks and avoid them as best as it can while dealing damage. Blizzard beats and outranges everything it can do. Jigglypuff is the lightest character in the game, so it shouldn't take much to get it into kill percent.
Grabbing Jigglypuff is extremely difficult, and you will lose if you try to spam grabs. If you do manage to get the grab, F-Throw works pretty well. For B-Throw and D-Throw's, the timing has to be tight or else you will mess up. You have to grab sooner than with the other lightweights.
Jigglypuff has a lot of stage advantages on us. Stages with low celings and areas where they can attack from below help them (Brinstar, Delfino, Halberd.) Stages like Japes and Delfino have water that can cancel their Rest. Jigglypuff doesn't die from the water easily on that stage and can eaisly gimp the Ice Climbers here. Frigate and Rainbow Cruise are also bad stages to go to against Jigglypuff. But the stage you should avoid the most is Norfair. With ledges everywhere, it will be hard to attack. Also it can attack from below the platforms easily. Final Destination and Yoshi's Island (Brawl) will work well against Jigglypuff.
This matchup is about even, probably 60-40 in Jigglypuff's advantage. We both have huge advantages and disadvantages against each other. Stage selection may give one character an advantage over the other, and Jigglypuff does better on more stages than the Ice Climbers do.
King Dedede
Ratio-65:35
out of the higher tier characters, this one is probobly the easiest.there are till plentty thing to watch out for, but just space properly with blizzard and sheildgrab and this match is pretty much yours
Kirby
Ratio-6:4
Vulcan Jab can kind of work, but it's generally not worth it. Sure it's faster than any of our moves, and it hits enough to split us up, but it is possible to shield grab Kirby before the fury of hit come. If they try to use it as a wall, it's possible to running Powershield-Grab it. If we get caught in it, we can DI out and possibly punish. Circle DI or Smash DI can land us behind Kirby, where his jab doesn't cover him well at all.
Kirby's Tilts all come out quickly. F-Tilt lacks range and isn't safe on the shield. D-Tilt has deceptive range and has a high chance of tripping, and has Inturruped as Soon as Frames. Up-Tilt comes out on frame 4 on the ground. It has good priority and works as a good juggling move at low percents, or a setup move at higher percents.
Kirby's feet are disjointed, so he sends his opponents at different trajectories if he connects with his toes with some attacks. Kirby's F-Smash one of his most reliable kill moves. It has decent speed and a lot of knockback when sweetspoted. The end of the hitbox sends the opponent upwards. Up-Smash has decent knockback and has a weak hitbox behind it. Down-Smash sends opponents outward at the tip, and Upward from closer in. It's his quickest smash.
Dash Attack can be annoying to deal with sometimes. It hits 6 times, with the last hit popping you into the air. It can be DI out of, and is punishable if it misses or if all the hits are blocked.
Kirby will be playing this matchup in the air most of the time though. His aerials generally lack range. His N-Air autocancel's well, and can be used as a get off me move. F-Air is a multi-hit move that isn't used that much from what I've seen. It doesn't have the range or knockback that B-Air has. Up-Air is a good juggling move that has good reach above him. His D-Air can be used on the stage to split the Climbers up. It's a multi-hit move, that has a ground hitbox upon landing.
B-Air is the aerial you'll see the most. It has the most range and it's fast. It also has good knockback, with KO potential when fresh at high percents. This attack stays out for a long time and can be difficult to punish when perfectly spaced, due to it's low end lag.
His Neutral-B (Swallow) has many uses. He can copy an opponent's B move. In this case our Ice Block, which won't lead to much. He can swallow one Climber and spit them back out into the other one to deal damage to them. At the edge, he can swallow one and shoot them under the stage or Swallowcide. Side-B has huge knockback and is used more in the air. Kirby's Up-B (Final Cutter) can hit up to 3 times up close and the Shockwave can cut through Blizzard. Stone makes Kirby invunrable to attacks for a short time. This move has enough power to KO at high percents. It has a hitbox to the sides when used on the ground.
If Kirby tries to grab us, they will most likely Up-Throw. Up-Throw is nearly instant and can be harder to punish if there is a platform above. You can hit Kirby while he's landing.
Kirby can edgeguard us eaisly. His B-Air also serves as a Wall of Pain. Kirby can D-Air to Footstool if you try to recover from below.
Kirby doesn't have much of an approach, and Blizzard beats out anything up close except Final Cutter and Stone. His ground game becomes limited and they will mainly try to space us with B-Air's with a few other attacks mixed in.
I think it's 60-40 in our favor, but they can counterpick us pretty easily. They beat us on stages like Rainbow Cruise, Norfair, and Brinstar, but we beat them on most neutrals.
Link
Ratio-55:45
Lucario
Ratio-45:55
Lucas
Ratio-65:35
Pk fire Is easy to block by an ice block not THAT big of a problem for IC's
Pk thunder1 is a **** atleast Offstage it is If it hits you offstage your IC's will desynch and when your Double jump is already used your Up b will not work correctly anymore and your ic's will both do that little hop and fall to their death
Pkthunder2 Just shield Nuff said. but when it hits you you will get some damage
Pk freeze Doesnt hit me that much but when it does it will be irritating mostly when i play lucas and hit with pk freeze i will use Nair and that ***** :o
His jabs are a great GTFO move and when used right the ice climbers cant grab
his side tilt is pretty fast but its range is crap well.. decent its doesnt desynch the ic's on low damage only at 120%+
his down tilt could let you trip wich will mostly be used to smash you away so thats a good move imo
His uptilt is pretty good it can be comboed with a downthrow up to 15% but after that it is good to do when someones in the air
Side smash: its fast and strong and it can be great in some situations it kills pretty fast even faster with tipper
Down smash doesnt hit that frequently the first hit is a great KO move the second only kills at high percentage REALLY high and the third hits knockback is just crap but the damage equalizes that
Upsmash is EPIC when it hits but it doesnt hit that much cause of the lag that comes along with that move if it misses IC's will grab and mostly he is screwed
Nair Its a SWEET move i love it it is nice to do Shorthopped and it can seperate the ice climbers but it doesnt hit that much and its range is crap so IC's will other shieldgrab or just smash
Fair A great move to get some range and move the IC's away
Uair hmmm it isnt used that well against ic's imo cause its easy to see coming and theres always an airdodge only with PKfreeze it will 100% hit
Bair The spike is epic and the none spike part is a great gtfo move and its good for spacing it doesnt seperate the ice climbers but it DOES desynch them
Dair is a good move but the landing lag is just too irritating i got killed by that little lag soo many times
And now the most irritating thing Lucas is one of the harder characters to chaingrab it is possible but when you play online you must know your non grab game cause the lag will backstab you
Luigi
Ratio-65:35
Mario
Ratio-6:4
Marth
Ratio: 4:6
He out ranges and out prioritizes you on the ground and air. Most of his attacks are double or more of your throw range allowing him to easily space you, and he has some good options to stop your approach. SH Fair will go over ice blocks and hit straight through your blizzards and squall hammers. He also has a good arsenal of edgeguarding tactics to disrupt the IC's recovery.
F-air if properly spaced beats out all of the IC's attacks except blizzard (and maybe belay?). I don't know if anyone else has experienced this but I'v actually had a Marth, who is stuck in the freeze frames from the blizzard, actually F-air me OUT of it. It does not happen every often, but it can. They can also Dolphin Slash out of it and hit you if they DI towards you then use it.
its in his favor but stopping/edge guarding him is easy. his dancing blade is his best tool in this matchup and he WILL abuse it. you can try shielding it but more than likely some part will shield poke one or both of you. power shielding makes this matchup a lot easier to get grabs. on top of all of this blizzard is our ****** tool. desync'd alting blizzards is just amazing on marth. use ice desync'd ice blocks to force an approach and then just cg his medium weight *** all over the place.
it is important to remember, however, that good marths will have terrific spacing making most of this very hard (see: near impossible) to pull off.
Meta Knight
Ratio-5:5
Quote:
-Ftilt and Dtilt beat out all of your ground attacks.
-All of his aerials will beat out any of yours.
-Don't roll behind him or you'll eat a Dsmash.
-His edge guarding will easily gimp your recovery.
-His speed, mobility, and size will easily allow him to maneuver past your camping setups.
-Blizzard helps stop tornado spam and several of his other approaching methods.
-Uair will beat out all of MK's attacks if he's above you.
-Use squall hammer to change momentum to avoid UpB when he's below you.
This is probably the IC's hardest match-up thus far. He beats you out in the air and ground, his speed and size make him hard to keep out, has good aerial mobility allowing him to space away from grabs, has ridiculous edgeguarding abilities to easily gimp their recovery, and the IC's have no reliable way to stop tornado spamming. Everything about this match-up is simply hard.
Against MK, Your going to be using SH Blizzard alot, as it out prioritizes the Tornado and his glide attacks. Your also going to be abusing your shield alot so it's harder for them to separate you and Nana. Also when there using Tornado, if you can manage a SH Single Blizzard, you can go in for the grab and attempt at a 0-Death. I'll write more about this later.
The MK fight is all about spacing. You can outrange him and forward-B can get through a lot of his attacks, even clashing with the tornado. If he uses tornado you can just sit in your shield and it rarely penetrates it. (may open up a grab opportunity too, as he lands) Use a lot of f-tilts to keep him away and look for grab opportunities since MK is really easy to chaingrab. You can even chaingrab him with a solo climber it seems.just note that actually setting up the grab is the REAL problem
- Ice blocks and blizzards are your BEST FRIEND.
- It helps a lot of you play AS Metaknight to know his about his openings, which he has very few of.
- Capitalize as much as possible if he really does mess up and gives you a grab opportunity.
- Shuttle loop and tornado **** everything, as usual. Except blizzard. (But even if he does tornado into your blizzard, it's not like you have dealt a lot of damage or created a guaranteed follow up.)
- This is an uphill battle up the ***. Solo popo is even worse, nigh impossible IMO.
- His priority is great, and this is still an uphill battle for IC's, but it's not nearly as hard as MK because GW doesn't have the great speed behind his range and priority. This makes it easier to grab him, or punish his mistakes. Watch closely, and know how to space his ranged attacks.
Fsmash>Mach Tornado. It's a reflex thing. On the downside, you can't shorthop fsmash, which limits movement
Quote:
Random blizzards>random nadoes. Powershield to massive chaingrab ftw. His advantage consists in KOing your partner, which MAY ACTUALLY TAKE LONGER THAN IT TAKES FOR YOU TO LAND A GRAB. IC's upair owns airborne MK. Try your best to KO from every grab. Fsmash near the edge KOs from 100%.
Its just trying ur best with ic to outlast the gay stuff mk can dish out (tornado/dair camping) to find an opening to land the death grab.
Only real advice i can give is... never stay in ur shield for too long. You need a full shield to shield tornado (you have to tilt shield so you dont get poked). If its slightly smaller u will get caught in it. If they are in the air do
well placed uairs and dont be afraid to grab them when they try to attack you on the ground because they are just asking for it.
Really fun match up imo because it really is outsmarting and spotting mistakes to punish mk. You will win if you are smarter than the mk and know the match up.
Ness
Ratio-5:5
Quote:
Originally Posted by PKNintendo
This matchup isn't to complicated. We all fear the IC almighty grab, but to what extent? Their puny grab range, that any decent player can outspace them. On the ground, simply yo-yo's can help keep Ness in the clear while the IC approach with the squall. Use simple ground attacks, such as jabs and tilts, since the IC will punish any messups with a grab. PKF should only be used when your SURE you can get away with it.
(alternatively, those skilled with the mighty arts of PK jump and Firebounding, can use those instead)
Punish whiffed smashes with a grab. Make you use Ness dash grab, since Ness will slide when he grabs his prey, just enough time for Nana to be killed with a backthrow (with a dash grab, Popo will barely have enough time to react) He you grab popo, quickly use a backthrow, less you want Nana to attack you. Seriously killing the IC is a piece of cake with backthrow. Popo on his own is relatively light, and Nana has really stupid AI and will DI in the WRONG direction, killing her earrrrrrrrrrly. (75% early!) Once she's gone, deal with the lone Popo, and keep him at bay with an aerial ****. When the time comes, you can backthrow for hs death.
In the air, you can combo with aerials to also keep the IC's at bay. The squall hammer is annoying, but escaping it's wrath and leading into a punish is really a work of art. Anticipate and lead into a PKT2 on a whiffed aerial squall. Once the IC are off the ledge, you can use PK Flash to kill them on getting back on the stage with such a predictable recovery. (If Nana is gone, popo is screwed) or you can go and chase them yourselves and spike them with dair.
*Ness is lucky by that fact that he can't get forward throwed CG. They have to use the other methods.
On the flipside, IC have plenty of tools to kill you. Getting grabbed by a GOOD IC is scary. They the average down throw CG, and can get you to the ledge to attempt to spike you (with Nana) The spike usually isn't strong enough to kill you at 0%, by they will attempt to gimp PKT with an ice block. You are spiked, used your PKT2 ASAP, or you will die. If your they hit you, double jump (you should save it) if not, your screwed. Squall hammer, can stop your ground approaches too. Getting grabbed and rapped by blizzard is not fun either.
IC are indeed a tough opponent, but they are not impossible. 5-5
Peach
Ratio-45:55
Quote:
her fair is her killing move. another attack to look out for is toad (activates with ice blocks, blizzard, belay, etc.). Also, she can stall by floating off the side and then using umbrella to edge hog/hit from bellow. he short hopping to try and mindgame really doesn't do much (sorry chibi, but you just look like a spaz). if you just keep a level head and think through your approach/timing its an easy fight with few surprises.
Quote:
it basically comes down to both characters strengths, IC's have their grabs and peaches is her air game, peach can basically shut down the IC's grab game while still maintaining her strong arial game, and yes IC's DO have other things besides chaingrabs, but w/out them they aren't really that great honestly, its like taking away snakes grenades/nikitas, he could still put up a fight but in the end he'd have nothing to force people to approach and would be too slow to go on the offensive.......so that was probably a bad analogy, but you get my point, this matchup ruins IC's grab game but peach's air game still works just as well as any other matchup besides maybe the MK matchup.
Pikachu
Ratio-45:55
Pikachu's Disadvantages:
-His downsmash has enough lag that if you shield it, it should allow for a free grab.
-His aerial are awful and force him to get in close. If predicted, they allow for a pretty easy grab.
-Thunder (if used... which can be rare) is easy to shield and get a free grab
-Any badly spaced or predicted move, since pikachu lacks range, can open him up for a grab.
-ICs have higher priority in most cases.
-Pikachu does not have a safe approach.
-To seperate the ICs Pikachu has to approach.
-ICs tilts beat Pikachu's tilts and air game.
Pikachu's Advantages:
-Down smash and thunder easily seperate the ICs
-Has a variety of powerful moves (thunder and foward smash) that can easily gimp a wandering nana at low percents.
-Pretty good spam that can stop desynched ICs in there tracks.
-Doesn't have to approach
-Can easily avoid a close up confrontation because of his quick speed and QAC.
-Foward smash outranges most of the ICs moves (all except down-b) and is hard to punish if it is spaced well.
Desyncing is not helpful in this matchup since his thunderjolts go through blizzard.
This matchup really involves a lot of running around, avoiding his ****, and shielding his moves.
You have to play against Pika like he's MK, and poke at him with aerials until he makes a mistake and gets grabbed, or until he can just die from an aerial or smash or w/e.
This is a ****ing annoying matchup for IC. I would have to say it's even, or maybe 55:45 in pika's favor.
Patience is the best tip I can give you.
Olimar
Ratio-7:3
<-psst, its a trap guiez
Ratio-5:5
R.O.B.
Ratio - 6:4
just watch xD
Lain vs NinjaLink
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qt7i1v77jo8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idBH1UVifSI
Lain vs HolyNightmare
(First Match Not Recorded; Lain Lost)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkA0nx8XOlE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcCVJqnZQ1A
just stuff to watch out for.v.
Spotdodge to Dsmash *****...
Dtilt trip *****..
Nair annoying *****...
Ftilt range *****...
Uair splits *****...
CHARGIN HIS LAZER goes through our blizzard *****...
Charged Gyro can't be blocked by out Ice Blocks.... *****....
Samus
Ratio - 60:40
Ratio-8:2
Sheik's game against IC's is more of a bair/nair/jab/tilt hit and run game, combined with needles and possibly chains.
She has very few safe approaches, but they are there. Fast falled nairs into jabs are really good. Jabbing is basically the only way to prevent getting grabbed if you are too close.
Sheik shouldn't be approaching in the first place, so charged needles are the greatest strength she can use. The only problem is that it takes time to charge them, and IC's will usually be trying to approach with desynchs.... or the general run up and shield approach. If sheik gets grabbed she is done.
Sheik can fight back... but basically the IC's can **** her still. Staying in the air and fairing worked in melee. In Brawl... it's more about hit-and-run, jab, and PLATFORMS.
Needles are too good as well.
Snake
Ratio-3:7
-His ground game is better than yours because his Ftilt, Dtilt, and jab will beat out anything you have.
-His air game isn't exactly better than yours but Utilt and Bair will beat out any attack you do in the air.
-As long as he holds a nade you cannot do CG's because they'll explode midway through.
-Desynched ice blocks will hurt his approach since he can't crawl or boost smash and must jump where you can take advantage of the lag from his aerials and punish with a grab.
-Desynched ice blocks will also hurt his camping since it'll interrupt him during the startup of his projectiles, they'll set off nades and mines on contact but not C4, and they can alter the trajectory of missles.
-Blizzard is your only attack that can compete with his range.
-Fair will hit him out of his cypher and spike him.
-In short you can beat him at a distance but you lose up close unless you can get a grab.
He completely destroys the IC's on the ground with his tilts and jabs, and his Utilt makes it risky for the IC's to go into the air. He can also hold a nade to prevent the IC's from grabbing him because it will explode midway through the combo.
Sonic
5:5
Quote:
Well you cant shieldgrab sonic when he's doing his spin dash or jumping spin dash. The only way you can really even grab him is if he does a up B to dair and messes up the timing to cancel the lag. Blizzards, IB's and Dairs work well against him. So overall you should keep him the way he is on the chart
Squirtle
5:5
Quote:
Squirtle has great priority on his aerials, but he lacks a good approach. His withdraw can be canceled with Blizzard, and his jabs are too short and can be just whacked away with them hammers. Seperating the ICs for him might not be that easy and gimping them isn't easy for him since he can't go far off the ledge. He can annoy the ICs, but he'll have trouble KOing them since half way through, the only attack that can kill would probabily be Usmash.
Toon Link
5:5
Quote:
Well desysnced IBs beat out his projectile spamming game, and blizzards do very well in close. He is also very easy to grab because he is forced to approach you when you spam IBs (synced or desynced), with a fair or bair which are both very easy to shieldgrab.
Wario
5:5
Quote:
Wario is tough to grab... most of the time he can just hit your shield with an aerial and retreat away safely. He has no range at all. Period. Abuse that advantage carefully, don't get careless and think you are safe just because you have a desynch "wall" put up. He's great at separating Nana, he's great at gimping the IC's even when you have both of them to recover, and even if he doesn't gimp you he can flat out kill you at gross %'s.
It feels like a baiting game, IC's bait Wario into attacking by appearing to make a mistake in spacing, timing, etc. and Wario baits the IC's into going for a grab or an attack when it really isn't safe to do so. I would put it as an even matchup.
Wolf
Ratio-6:4
Yoshi
Ratio-45:55
Quote:
Well first of all, they're pretty well matched. Yoshi does better in the air, while IC's does better on the Ground, and have more versatile specials. Problem number one is that Yoshi is probably the best separating character against the IC's. Besides his obvious Egg Lay, His Ftilt, Bair, SideB, UpB Eggs, Ground DownB, Quick Discarding with Grabs, and even his Jab can also separate them easily. The main problem is that once Nana is in the air, Yoshi can very easily follow Nana with a 3 Hit Uair WoP for an easy kill with her relatively dumb AI, which in most cases you are unable to follow to save her.
Problem number Two is that Yoshi can gimp the IC's recovery so well, it's redicious. His Dair can cancel out your UpB. What makes it worse is that it desync's it, so if you panic, both you and Nana will do their UpB at the same time, but won't attach to eachother, Not to mention if you do take your time to readjust, Yoshi will have enough time to Edgehog, making you ditch Nana in most cases. It's the same if you're using your SideB. Dair also works, but Eggs are even worse. If you get hit by an egg when you're recovering with your SideB, it will cause you to scatter, and once again, cause a Desync, which will make Nana drop like a rock if you Panic and don't readjust. Course readjusting could also lead to an edgeguard If Yoshi follows up fast enough.
Course, they still have the legendary Infinite, but It's hard to snag an approaching Yoshi due to his fast horizontal speed, going past a shield grab if it happens. Plus a good Yoshi can deal with Nana easily, so you really won't have many chances doing such. Anyways, That's my view on it. I say about a 2 on your scale. We have 6:4 on ours, and I'm not going to lie, Infinites are scary, but he has so many ways to take out Nana, a good Yoshi usually doesn't need to worry about that.
Zelda
Ratio-55:45
Quote:
honestly she mobs the two of you like nobodies business... and the long duration of her USmash and FSmash mean that it's not unlikely that she'll rip at least one of you out of your shield
her normally difficult to land powerhouse aerials have NO trouble hitting your retarted partner the second she/he separates.
She's incredibly resistant to being grabbed, the sole property that puts the icies as high as they are on the teir list...
oh and also, the icies can't really approach her well..... that's a big problem...
and... they are one of the few charcters with a worse air game than Zelda... Zelda can ACTUALLY go into an aerial dogfite with the climbers and come out the victor... and have been predicted to do so.
what do the icies have on Zelda at all?
your projectile spam gets ***** by dins AND nayru's, so you can't camp. your approaches get stuffed... every one of them zelda can beat out. you might have a good CG, but your grab range is attrocious and zelda has enough GTFO moves to get you away if somehow you manage to get close enough to grab. in the air you're one of the few characters that she can completely school. you are vulnerable from below and BOTH sides to death by zelda.
you've got very very little going for you in the matchup. And what do IC's normally consider one of their strongpoints? that people fear the CG so much they have to fight at a range that most characters aren't comfortable with so that they can keep the ICs away... well fortunately that's a range that zelda enjoys being in anyway. Fsamsh and ftilt outrange your everything. and Dsamsh, and Dtilt probably outrange and outspeed anything you have on the ground. Usmash stops all your aerial approaches, and, like nair and fsmash, separates the two of you normally. utilt also stops your aerial approcahes and kills. most of her attacks are unable to be sheildgrabbed. the exception is maybe Nayru's which still functions as a great GTFO move if you manage to be that close.
So, I mean, you have your grab of death when nana's still alive. but other than that, nothing threatening. Considering how much trouble you'll have landing that initial grab on zelda even if you focus on landing it, there's no way that's anywhere NEAR enough of a consideration to make the match even EVEN for you guys. you have that on everyone. you have it on Metaknight. does that make the match yours to lose? no, because if you have only one reliable strategy against an oponent and it's as hard as to land as it is, especially against that character, then you don't have an adantage. period. it's not even even. period. heck. if you didn't have the chaingrab, what would you have at all in the matchup? it'd probably be even worse for you.
Zero Suit Samus
Ratio-55:45
the Ice Climber Match up Thread
im gonna take the job of handling the match ups.
creds. to KawaiiBunny for the chart
so anyways lets begin.
Bowser
Ratio-8:2
Quote:
Bowser has range, power, size, and can edgeguard fairly well.
I'm not sure how safe on the block his moves are, but he has his Jab, Forward Tilt, and F-Air to outrange the Climbers. Another move to watch out for is Up-B. It doesn't kill like it used to, but it comes out fast, and has invincibility frames.
He has many KO options. If we are from above, his Up-Air has deceptive range. Up-Smash has lots of priority and has 2 hitboxes. Forward Smash isn't that reliable, but it can hit twice, and do massive damage. Up-Tilt comes out fast. Bowser Bomb from the ground combos into itself at times and Back Air outranges the Climbers. Even Side-B can kill them at heigher percents (I'm not talking about the Bowsercide here.) It's fairly situational. Down Smash is good for killing because it has power and is multi-hit. It's pretty hard to DI out of and can eaisly split the Climbers.
Bowser is he heaviest character in the game. He's the hardest to kill horizontally, due to his size and Aerial Movement speed.
Bowser has edgeguarding options. Bowser Bomb cancel (I think when it land on the edge.) and Bowser Bomb sweetspoting is devastating, leaving a vertical wall of power coming towards the ledge. Spaced Forward Airs and Forward Tilt/Down Tilt all hit the Climbers out of Squall Hammer. Flamethrower is commonly used in this situation, as it racks up damage and makes it difficult to grab the ledge. Down Air is multi-hit with a landing hitbox. If this connects, it will split the Climbers.
Unfortunately, it's his size that does him in in this matchup.
He's the eaisest character to Forward chain throw. It leave a bit of room for error, due to his character frame. He has trouble getting out of Blizzard Walls and Squall Hammer can chain into itself and a grab at low percents. Bowser isn't that hard to grab in my experience.
Squall Hammer also sets up for Juggling opportunities. Up- Air's destroy Bowser at low percents. Up Tilt at low percents sets up for a grab if they don't DI properly. Down-Smash can also hit him for way more damage then normal.
You can kill him up or down. He dies at the top easier than Snake, DK, and Dedede, but I'm not quite sure what the kill range is for Up-Smash on him. Meteor Smashing him is good, due to his lack of verticle height. This is assuming you get him to a reasonable percent.
His whole book of Grab tricks are severely ruined by Nana being at your side. With one Climber he can chaingrab you better than you can chaingrab him by release grabs. He can air release you into a Forward-Air, or a Side B. With Nana at your side, he loses the ability to chaingrab effectivly, and he can be hit out of Side-B on the way down. There's also the chance that Bowser grabs the wrong one (A good Bowser shouldn't suicide with Nana if they pay attention. Have you seen Nana's DI?) If it happens, Popo can get to Bowser and punish before he even hits the ground. Nana can punish Bowser out of his Side-B, only if Bowser lands by Nana.
It's 8-2 in the Ice Climber's favor. Bowser has way too much going against him.
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Bowser can turtle with his tilts and jabs all day. The range on these are bigger then you think. Fire breath can be used the same way Ice Climber's Blizzard can, but it has more usability.
The entire match is based upon Bowser avoiding the grab. If he avoids the grab, he'll win. If you grab him, he gets *****.
70-30 max.
Best stage to use:FD
Best throw to use:f-throw(possibly buffered)
Captain Falcon
Ratio-8:2
Quote:
I can see a bunch of ways to contrast Falcon's running speed with Sonic's (call me obsessed). Falcon's slower than Sonic, obviously, so grabbing him is somewhat manageable (on his own if you can predict right, not just compared to Sonic), and using desynched moves for camping will still deal him some damage if he tries to approach from the ground. He does, however, have an easier time than Sonic when it comes to killing a separated Nana, as his Knee, while nerfed, still works well enough if sweetspotted, leaving Popo little time to catch up.
However, Falcon still holds very little against the ICs, despite the aforementioned advantage in gimping Nana. Many of his moves, while powerful against the lightweight ICs, are laggy enough that they are easy to prepare for and punish with a CG. Also, Falcon's lack of priority leaves him few options for approaching. Desynch-camping will deal damage if he approaches on the ground, and his aerial moves are easy to see coming. Falcon falls somewhat fast, so he can be comboed effectively, and his recovery is sub-par, leaving the ICs room to edgehog/guard him if they can get him off the stage.
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Falcon can do a few things. He runs fast and has a good juggling game. N-air is one of his key approaches, and can split the Climbers. His jab is also good. He can edgeguard pretty well as far as I know through Up-Airs, B-Airs, and aerial Falcon Kicks.
Up-Tilt and Down-Tilt are also kind of safe to use when properly spaced. Up-Tilt can hit you out of Squall Hammer. D-air to Knee still works, and will at least separate the Climbers.
Falcon has kill moves. However, most of these are unreliable. All his Smashes are slow, with enough end lag to punish them. The knee needs to be sweetspotted and has little range. Falcon Punch is extremely telegraphed, and can easily destroy Nana when separated.
Falcon doesn't have much priority in his attacks. This and his general lack of range make it a bit eaiser to grab him, and he can be chaingrabbed pretty eaisly (SoPo can Down Throw Falcon up to at least 70% due to his high falling speed.)
Falcon is deceptively hard to kill off the top due to his weight and falling speed. Killing him on the sides on smaller stages may work better. He has a decent recovery.
Juggling him shouldn't be much of a problem. Squall Hammer sets up well. Blizzard ***** his approaches and does major damage.
best stage to use:FD
best throw to use:f-throw(possibly buffered)
Charizard
Ratio-55:45
Quote:
He moves quickly along the ground (while dashing) and is slow in the air.
Charizard has nice range on his Tilts and Jab. Down Tilt and a tippered Forward Tilt can be used to kill at higher percents. And Charizard's Smashes are powerful, but slow, with the exception of Up-Smash.
Charizard's F-Air has an odd hitbox. From far away it doesn't make you flinch, but up close it has good knockback. Back Air hits twice when sweetspotted, but lacks range. It's pretty strong. And he has a spike in his D-Air, but it's slow. Up-Air is fast with range.
He's one of the few characters that can glide, but he moves very slowly when he does.
Charizard can edgeguard pretty well with F-Air, B-Air, and even Fly Attack. Flamethrower is used by the edge too.
Charizards love to use Rock Smash. Has crazy knockback when sweetspotted, can do about 45 damage if the entire attack connects, and it ***** shields. It can also split the Climbers.
Fly Attack has Super Armor, and is a multihit move. It's possible to DI before the last hit connects, but it can split them easily, and the last hit can KO.
Charizard has awesome grab range and good throws, but doesn't have any quick throws. This severely hurts his grab game when Nana's around
Knowing the range of his attacks helps in this matchup. I think you should fight him like you would Bowser. Grabbing him shouldn't be too difficult I think. He's big, so Forward throw chains shouldn't be difficult. And hitting him with Blizzards/Squalls, and juggling shouldn't be hard either.
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Charizard has many ways to fight IC's. He can flamethrower wall just as well as IC's can blizzard wall. Not only does this prevent IC grabs but it also nullifies approaches for them. So besides a blizzard/flamethrower camping game, Charizard does have many things he can do to beat out the IC's grab game.
Rock smash is big punishment for nana since her shield is unreliable, which makes for easy separation and high damage. Camping with bairs, flamethrower, and rock smash is a pretty good defense IMO. Charizard's dtilt and ftilt outrange IC's COMPLETELY, though they do have a priority advantage sometimes because of hammers.
Guys, just watch out for Charizard's dtilt because that will nick you guys a lot when you try to approach.
Charizard's grab range is way better, but IMO his grabs aren't necessarily fast enough so IC's can probably jab or c-stick him when they get grabbed so it's all good.
Anyway, the main thing charizard has in this matchup is a solid defensive game that can equal the defensive game of the ic's. Both have ways to nullify approaches, and both have a limited number of approaches because of that. Charizard has plenty of ways to prevent ic's from simply running in and getting a grab (Unlike Ivy, who is destroyed by grabs because of lack of options.)
Charizard's game is focused around his ranged flamethrower and rock smash. It can defend the approaches from any character. I actually like to consider him a defensive and tactical character, there's way too many dumb Charizards who just throw out hopeful fsmashes and usmashes just waiting to be punished. He certainly has the power, but it's a matter of looking for those opportunities to use them. Other than that, he has to rely on his flames, rock smash, jabs, dtilt, ftilt, bair, and pretty much everything fast. Heck, I still see charizards who use other throws besides uthrow at low % which is a dummy move.
I guess most charizard players out there will be a breeze for you guys since he is hard to master, but take it from someone who previously mained IC's and now mains PT.
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Their flamethrower shorthopped and shorthopped fair make it very hard to approach a charizard normally. Rock smash also makes things harder because it eats so much from your shield. The only weakness that the Ice Climbers can exploit Charizard with is good bair edge guarding and CGing since he is a huge target. Juggling Charizard is another thing to look up to. Blizzard has about the same range as flamethrower and fair so it isn't as good of a spacing tool as it could be. A lot of approaches that IC's have make them Rock Smash food since their bodies are in the range of Rock Smash before most approaches of their's can do anything. This match would depend on who can predict what the best.
Best stage to use:FD
Best throw to use:f-throw(possibly buffered)
Diddy Kong
Ratio-5:5
Quote:
Good IC players will use ice blocks really well to block the bananas and know how to handle them. Plus if diddy gets grabbed its all over. It's a totally momentum based matchup, if one makes a mistake then he gets punished for a pretty long time. Dash attack separates them both, and diddy's throws are pretty fast and separates them as well. Ice climbers do have a glide toss as well but its length is kinda poor but it still has its usefulness. I hate this matchup... alot. Diddy just has to really fish for opportunities with the nanerz and the IC's really need that grab.
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Against IC Diddy's bananas can be both an asset and a pain. Because there are two of you, it may be harder for him to banana slide you. On the downside, If a banana is thrown at you and hits you, it can mess up your synched or desynched game play.
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As far as the stage goes, I would be wary of FD because there's nothing to mess up banana combos. If you slip on a banana at Battlefield, half the time it'll end up on a platform above you, and not many Diddy's can continue the "combo" from here. CGing on a Battlefield platform is something you may want to practice...
Best stage to use:Battlefield or other stages with many platforms
Best throw to use:d-throw/b-throw(possibly stationary on a platform)
Donkey Kong
Ratio-6:4
Quote:
Donkey Kong is very strong, heavy, and deceptively fast. His biggest advantage in this matchup is his range.
A good DK can make it difficult to get inside. His Forward-Tilt has really good range. His Down-Tilt has more use in this matchup because it has little less range, for more speed, quicker cooldown, and a chance of causing tripping, which isn't good. Up-Tilt is fast, and covers above and behind him. It's a good setup move, that beats out anything we throw from above.
His Smashes are powerful, but are situational in this matchup. Down-Smash can be used out of a Jab-Cancel. It covers both sides of him as well as above him. If he misses or if it's powershielded, the end lag is enough where he can get grabbed.
Up-Smash also kills early, but you have to be directly above him in order to get hit. There's also ususally a better option than Up-Smash if the Climbers are directly above DK.
Forward Smash will be one of the main used kill moves. It's his slowest smash, but it has range, and is strong. Plus the hitbox stays out for a while if it connects with anything (A single Climber or shield.) making it easy to run into (especially Nana.)
DK will try to force the action into the air. While his ground game is good, it's not enough to keep him from getting grabbed. His air game isn't the best, but it's enough to beat out the Climbers.
DK has many ways to do this. Up-Tilt is one of the ways. His most famous one is probably the Down-B. It has deceptive range, set knockback, and deals good damage. It's nearly impossible to punish while on the ground. This move destroys shields, and pushes the Climbers back too far to punish if they are hit in their shield. The best thing about this move, is that it forces the Climbers into the air. If it doesn't hit them into the air, they have to get into the air to attack DK.
DK's Up and Back throws are probably fast enough to split the Climbers, though I highly doubt anyone would try that.
If they do grab you, it will be with the Cargo Carry. The lower DK's damage is, the more attacks DK can take before dropping the Solo Climber. At higher percents, a smash may be enough for him to drop the Climbers.
In the air, DK has his B-air. It has awesome range, and can be used as an approach. It can be used twice in on shorthop, so it has little cooldown. It's also pretty fast (frame 7). I've managed to powershieldgrab it before, but I don't know if you can do that if DK spaces well.
Up-Air is very fast (frame 5), can juggle at low percents, and can kill at high percents. It also has high priority.
If DK is facing forward while in the air, expect him to airdodge or N-Air. F-Air is too laggy to use on a grounded opponent most of the time.
His edgeguard game is probably good. His B-Air can serve as a wall of pain at low percents, and has the range to hit the Climbers out of Squall Hammer. His Tilts can also hit the Climbers out of Squall Hammer. Also, DK has 3 spikes (D-Air. F-Air, Side-B.)
DK is hard to edgeguard for most characters. He has a linear recovery, but his Up-B has invincibility frames on the startup, and can do a lot of damage if you don't DI out of it. It last a long time, making it difficult to edgehog him. They can cancel their landing lag of their Up-B by hovering close to the ground, so they won't be recovering high.
DK's Giant Punch (Neutral B,) is probably his best kill move. It has insane range, with low cooldown, making it difficult to punish. When it's fully charged, it is a great damage builder at low percents, with the ability to kill at high percents. If DK winds up his punch 9 times, it will have more knockback than a fully charged punch. Watch out for reverse Giant Punches.
It doesn't take much for DK to take out Nana if the Climbers become separated, and he can do fairly well against a Solo Climber.
DK's moveset becomes severly limited because his moves are either too laggy and/or situational. He's also a huge target, so he has trouble getting by blizzard walls. Squall Hammer works well to build great damage and set up juggling opportunities. He can easily hit you out of Squall Hammer so be smart about it. One use of Squall Hammer is when he uses Down-B, you can Squall out of a short hop. Juggling him with Up-Air is no problem, due to his size. He also vulnerable from under.
Like FrozenPopo said, you don't really need the chaingrabs, but if you do manage to grab him, then the Forward Throw chaingrabs the best way to go. He's a big targets, so he leaves a bit of room for error.
The best way to kill him is to send him downwards. Spiking him works well because of his lack of vertical height in his jumps. Killing him upwards is your next best chance, because his horizontal recovery gains a lot of distance.
One stage you definitely want to avoid against DK is Brinstar. That is easily DK's strongest stage and one of the Ice Climber's worst. Platform stages are bad too.
Best stage to use:FD or Yoshis Island(brawl)
Best grab to use:F-throw(possibily buffered)
Falco
Ratio-65:35
Quote:
65:35 IC's
this is a hard matchup for falco, i wouldn't play it if i had the chance to CP a different character. but if you have to, your best chances of winning are just camping with lasers and spacing with IAPs. if you want to win, play like a complete ***! other things to remember include trying to kill nana first if they are seperated, and never try to start a CG or fight the IC up close, especially on the ground. in the air, you have an advantage, however, make sure to DI if you see/predict the shield so that you don't get shield grabbed. taking the fight on top of a platform is also smart as it weakens thir grab game. IAP'ing back and forth between platforms is a pretty good idea. your KO moves are the same as always. also you should remember that the IC's (desynched or not) can grab you out of the phantasm with proper timing so don't mindlessly spam it.
basically, to win this matchup with falco, you HAVE to play extremely smart and make as few mistakes as you can, because 1 grab= 1 stock. camping and IAPs are key.
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His lasers alone completely dismantles your approach. They go over ice blocks, through blizzards, stops squall hammer, and disrupts any desynch attempt. SH phantasm is also a real pain to deal with since the IC's have no move to counter/punish it. Dair spike is devastating and will hit you straight out of your squall hammer if you try to recover with it, and it can even hit you out of the startup of belay.
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Campy Falcos can be annoying, but they do damage at a really slow rate and have a really hard time KOing ICs, while ICs only need one grab to KO Falco. It doesn't help Falco that pretty much all of his viable KO options can be punished with a grab.
Fox
Ratio-75:25
Quote:
Everyone knows that Fox is very quick. He moves quickly along the ground, and has quick attacks.
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I find his jab to be annoying sometimes, but it's easy to DI out of and has punishable end lag. F-tilt is safe on the block when spaced well and D-tilt probably is too. Up-Tilt is a good juggling move at low percents, and it links into other moves if you don't DI out.
His Smashes are decent. Down- Smash is fast (comes out on frame 5) and hits on both sides at the same time. It's best used to punish a roll, or out of D-Air. Forward-Smash is decent. It's has bad end lag, so it's not safe on the block. Everyone fears the Up-Smash, due to it's power and speed.
His aerials are quick but generally lack range. D-Air is a favored approach among Fox mains. It's multi-hit, which is always a problem and has a good chance of tripping at least one of the Climbers. It's not the best approach in ths matchup because the landing lag is enough where we can put our shield up before the next attack hits. And grabbing us is asking to be punished. F-Air can be annoying because it's split's the Climbers up well. A well placed N-Air can be safe if it lands behind the Ice Climbers shield, but it can be eaisly shieldgrabbed. B-Air has good speed and knockback, but poor range. Up-Air can kill, but not as well as Up-Smash does. I think D-Air beats it.
Fox's blaster can be annoying. It fires at a rapid pace, and doesn't make the enemy flinch. It also shoots Ice Blocks back, and can force an approach. Side-B is a form of recovery, but can be used as a quick get away, and pops the Ice Climbers in the air. The Reflector can reflect Blizzard, but it's not going to do much damage to us. It also can split the Ice Climbers up for a bit, but the low knockback won't help much.
Fox's best option if he wants to grab is B-Throw. It's his quickest throw, and it takes the other Climber more time to get back. A pivot grab to Back-Throw is hard to punish if Fox lands it.
Fox has a way he can gimp us out of our Up-B. If we tether the stage, his fast falling speed will allow him to drop down fast enough to hit Popo before he can grab the ledge. They can drop down and B-Air into the stage or Shine Spike us, which is guaranteed death. I'm not sure what he can do to Side-B (beside Shine Spike it,) but it's probably safer.
Fox is extremely light (5th lightest)and he falls really fast. These two combined attributes make him easy to chaingrab. His lack of safe approaches makes him pretty easy to grab too. His falling speed also makes him easy to juggle at low percents. He can stall with his Reflector on the way down, so be patient when he's falling. If he fast falls, shield and punish. If he airdodges normally, wait out the invincibiltity frames and attack or short hop Up-Air. If he uses the Reflector and has no jumps left, Up-Air should work, or Up-B for the kill.
Fox can be chaingrabbed by Sopo up to a bit over 60 if the throw is staled enough. A SoPo chain accross the stage to F-Smash leaves Fox in a very bad position. If he's below the stage, D-Tilt should send him out too far to recover. You want to force Fox to use Up-B. He has very poor DI after his Up-B is used. His Side-B will be used if he's over the stage. Blizzard beats out Fox's Side-B. Other moves, like Forward-Smash and Down-Smash beat out Side-B too. If he likes to land on the stage with Side-B, the best place to stand is right outside of Side-B's range. If they like to sweetspot the ledge, stand in a range where the edge of Blizzard can reach.
I think this matchup is 6-4 in the Ice Climbers favor, but 7-3 seems to be the general consensus.
Side note: Reflector is faster than our grab. Our standing grab comes out on frame 6, and our dash grab is slower.
Best stage to use:
Best grab to use:f-throw to -b-throw
Game & Watch
Ratio-35:65
Quote:
-Bair ***** hard
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-Nuff said
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Game and Watch has insane priority on his moves. His aerials can be very annoying. Game and Watch users love to use their Turtle (B-Air) to approach. Not only is it Multi-Hit, but it easily shield pokes, and has a landing hitbox that pops the opponent into the air. Powershielding the first possible hit will help to keep your shield up. Also keep your shield up before the landing hitbox connects. If you get caught in the B-Air, DI out as best as you can. It is possible to escape the hitbox and land before Game and Watch does. This may be common knowledge by now, but I've seen a few people not do anything when they get caught by B-Air, so I think it's worth mentioning.
N-Air is also an annoying attack. It's Multi-Hit, and when fresh does 17 damage. It's also a good juggling move, that can link into other attacks.
The Key (D-Air) is usually used high from above. Game and Watch has the ability to Dive or slow down on command. If they use it from directly above and you feel like attacking, Up-Tilt beats it and Up-Air can beat it or clash with it. This move also has a landing hitbox, so be careful when trying to attack/grab him right out of his landing lag.
Up-Air can be hard to deal with. It has an invisible hitbox that pushes opponents upward, and is really good for replenishing his moves. The Ice Climbers are susceptible to this due to their floaty nature, and their slow horizontal speed. You do not want to be above Game and Watch when you are in free fall.
On the ground he has many powerful attacks. Most of which have crazy Inturrupted as Soon as frames. His Jab can be DI'd out of pretty eaisly, and can hit from behind if you are standing right next to him. F-Tilt is rarely used, but has decent knockback and is a decent spacing tool. Up-Tilt is situational, but can juggle at low percents, and can set up for other moves. D-Tilt is a better spacing tool than F-Tilt, comes out on Frame 6, and has no coooldown frames, so they can use any move they want right after. It's a good move for stoping approaches, as it has a pretty big hitbox.
All of his smashes have Inturrupted as Soon as frames. All of his smashes are also not that quick, and can be blocked on reaction. They're also absurdly powerful, and have the ability to kill around 100. Up-Smash has ridiculous priority and is Game and Watch's strongest smash attack. Forward-Smash has a lingering hitbox. You can still get hit by the Flame when it's out. You can get hit by the stick also (extremely rare) and has good knockback too. D-Smash will probably be his best move for killing. It hits on both sides simultaneously, so rolling behind him is never a good idea. It has 2 separate hitboxes. The sweetspot will send you upwards, and can kill very early. The non-sweetspot is also powerful, and sends you at a odd angle. When separated, getting hit by the non-sweetspot will make it extremely difficult to recover. Due to the hitboxes, this has the ability to split the Climbers up as well.
His specials are situational. Chef (Neutral-B) has the ability to semi-spike when it connects up close, and is a decent zoning tool due to the random trajectories of the food. Side-B is also used rarely due to it's lack of speed, and randomness. All the numbers have different effects and uses. The Bucket (Down-B) probably won't be used in this matchup. While it is possible to bucket Blizzard, they have to wait until after 100 before they can kill with it. By then it's pretty useless. Also it's extremely punishable when the Climbers are dysynched.
Up-B is and awesome move. It allows Game and Watch to get out of many situations. He has invinciblity frames on his Up-B, and can attack out of it. The sides of Up-B can launch you in the air on startup if you are right next to him or in the air. If he does an attack out of his Up-B before the parachute appears, he will automatically fastfall, with the attack, which can allow for a quick attack. If he uses his Up-B on the Ground, he still has the ability to use his second jump.
Due to Game and Watch's recovery, he can come off the stage to gimp us if he wants. All of his aerials can knock us out of Side-B. His Up-B can be used as a finisher off stage as well. He can also wait on the stage and use Chef/Down-Tilt to knock us back off the stage. If you Up-B, be careful of him dropping down to attack you.
Game and Watch can't afford to grab us because all of his throws are slow. This ruins his techcase game, but killing for him isn't really that big a of problem due to his arsenal of powerful attacks.
Game and Watch can easily make Nana a non-factor once separated. Game and Watch does pretty well against SoPo. Getting grabbed isn't a good thing when SoPo. Down-Throw leads to a tech chase. It's possible to tech his Down-Throw. Up-Throw leads to Up-Air. If you can avoid getting hit by his smashes or grabbed, he may have trouble finishing you.
The one move we have that outprioritizes Game and Watch is Blizzard. It also outranges anything Game and Watch can do. Trying to force him to approach with Ice Blocks may not work well here, as D-Tilt is good at blocking enemy projectiles. Powershielding is very important in this matchup, as it makes it eaiser to get a grab in or punish him. Juggling also works decently, as he can't really D-Air through our attacks.
The best way to kill him is up I think. Game and Watch has a technique called Bucket Braking, which allows him to stop his aerial momentum, and survive for longer. Killing him off the top makes it more difficult for him to Bucket Brake. You can spike him off the edge too, but his Up-B will usually get him back to the stage. Chaingrabbing him shouldn't be too difficult.
I believe it is the stages that make this matchup even more difficult then it should be. Game and Watch can platform camp you all day, and can use the platforms to their advantage more than we can. Stages with ledges also give him a humongous advantage, because his ledge game is very good. Moving stages are good for him due to his mobility and Air Game. Avoid stages like Norfair and Rainbow Cruise. Game and Watch does very well on these stages and the Ice Climbers don't do well on either stage. Flat stages like Final Destination work well here.
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desynced blizzard outrange anything he can do, so the G&W will try to dair into you. you can have popo or nana short hop and uair if they try. If you can roll behind them during their bair you can get a free grab usually, ALWAYS try to powershield his dair cause that's a free grab son.
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Best Stage to use:FD,or anything with very few platforms
Best grab to use:d-throw to b-throw
Ganondorf
yes, i stole it from teh fox boards(couldnt find anything better.
Ratio - 95:5
Ganondorf is probably armed with the most powerful moves in the game. Almost all of his moves have the ability to kill.
Ganondorf's Jab, Down-Tilt, and Forward-Tilt are suprsingly fast and are usually used as followups to Side-B and kill moves on stage. F-Smash can kill insanely early if you managed to get hit by it (especially Up-Angled,) and Up-Smash has Inturrupted as Soon As frames. It reaches through the platforms on Battlefield so keep that in mind. Down-Smash hits on both sides, but it has terrible startup lag, end lag, and is unsafe on the shield. Ganon's down smash is never used
Up-Tilt is one of the most damaging tilts in the game that can kill insanely early if it connects. It has wind properties that pull you into the attack, ***** shields, and can be a useful edgeguarding tool.
In the air, Ganondorf is known to do his thunderstomp to approach. It deals massive damage, and can lead to followups for more damage. It isn't uncommon to only be hit 4 times and be up to or over 70 damage. N-Air's first hit does more damage and has more knockback, while the second hit has sex-kick properties. F-Air is a powerful move that is still a good finisher. It comes out quick with a somewhat deceptive hitbox. It's massive landing lag makes it a situational move. B-Air and Up-Air are quick and have good range and power.
Ganondorf's specials are quite situational. Warlock Punch is extremely powerful, especially when reversed, but is difficult to land. His Side-B is one of his favored moves, but it's kind of limited in this matchup with two Climbers present. He can't techchase without being hit, but he gains Superarmor when he grabs a Climber with this move. Up-B has almost non-existant hitstun and little knockback when it catches a Climber. If he manages to catch a Climber with the other one not present, you can most likely N-Air him upon release. Ganondorf mains are aware of this and won't use Up-B as an offensive attack. The other Climber will hit him out of his attack most of the time. When recovering, he can uppercut you if you are close to the edge, so lookout for that.
Ganondorf's Wizard Foot (Down-B) has many uses. On the ground it can push you off the stage. He can also use it to cancel at the edge with little lag. In the air, it can spike with great power, or kill you off the top at around 100. It also has a landing hitbox.
Ganondorf is pretty good at edgeguarding. All his aerials knock you out of Squall Hammer. Down-B when used in the air can eaisly kill as well. Up-B is probably a better recovery option.
Ganondorf can **** Nana with his powerful moves if the Climbers are seperated.
Ganondorf does ok against SoPo. SoPo can chaingrab him for a while and can knock him off stage. He can knock us out pretty far with any move. His approach is still kind of limited though.
Ganondorf is the slowest character in terms of mobility on average. He also has no projectile. Blizzard stops his approaches and beats everything he has. Desynched Ice Blocks can force an approach while alternating Blizzards give him trouble up close. Squall Hammer racks up the damage. Popping him in the air for juggling works very well at low percents. He doesn't have a great recovery, so killing him at the sides works well. Spiking him also works pretty well. Getting the grab shouldn't be too difficult and chaingrabing him shouldn't be too bad either. Rising B-Air out-spaces him and should be able to hit him.
Delfino is most likely their best stage. With the water for easy spiking, and the Side-B to drag you into the water, easier Gannoncides (though he can eaisly grab the wrong Climber) and platforms that make it easier to attack though, it is not a stage to take him lightly. Norfair is another stage to consider banning. Stages that have uneven terrain like Lylat makes it more difficult for him to perform his attacks smoothly. Flat stages like Final Destination make it extremely easy to limit him.
I think it's 95-5 in our favor. Ganondorf has power, but will struggle to get attacks in.
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[COLOR=cyan]Stage to CP:anythings good,but FD is still best[/COLOR]
[COLOR=cyan]CG to use:fthrow to fthrow(buffered cuz hes heavy[/COLOR]Ratio - 4:6
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[COLOR=cyan]best stage to use:FD[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#00ffff]best grab to use:f-throw - f-throw[/COLOR]Ratio - 55:45
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[COLOR=cyan]best stage to use: Smashville[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#00ffff]best grab to use: d-throw to b-throw or f-throw-b-throw[/COLOR](lol, Dittos)- 5:5
Against someone who you can't exploit any strongpoint and weakpoint, it becomes very much a brawl of mindgames. Your greatest strengths are nulled, and your biggest weaknesses forgiven. There's little advice I can give, so here goes! Exploiting the near-meaningless recovery, downthrows by ledge into edgehog is the way to go. But to get there you're going to have to fight safe as you can without spamming blizzard, since its gonna be punished. Desynced SH blizzards THROUGH the opponent and hit them....D.Smashes every chance can't go wrong, but UpTilts will work good to defend against SH attacks and can also combo into upairs and a possible belay, yourself. grabbing is good against ICs, since its a miracle if their litle nubs called apendages can actually hit you anyway...and Projectiling with IBs are good, but better left as aerial pre-offenses. ICs tends to break out of combos well with his smaller size, average weight, and blizzards...so try to start early with UpAirs and finish him with what seems the most reliable. As a great offense a uair into a falling B.air is mighty sexy. It can turn around their anti-air movement(even though you're not facing them) and them snipe them with your hammers last minute.
Ditto matches donnot prove who is better, so don't be discouraged if you lose. It only means today they were better fighting IC vs. IC. What point is made in beating a character who you cannot stress IC's real advantages and disadvantages against? The very characteristics that makes them Ice Climbers?...I'll tell you what. Nothing...its like ICs are no longer ICs, but a souless vessle trapped in a psychological game of rock-paper-sciccors floating into the corners of the universe just waiting to implode-THATS WHAT!*#@!! >:O.........well, maybe not. But I thought it sounded cool.
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[COLOR=cyan]best stage to use:frigate, norfair, rainbow cruise[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#00ffff]best grab to use: whatever...[/COLOR]Ratio - 55:45
Jigglypuff is pretty terrible on the ground. Its Jab comes out on frame 5 in has little range. It can be used to interrupt an attack. F-Tilt is pretty good speed. It comes out on frame 7, and has D-Tilt comes out on frame 10. It's pretty useless, as it doesn't set up for anything. Up-Tilt comes out on frame 11, and has Interrupted as Soon as Frames. It's a decent set up move most of the time.
Jigglypuff's smashes are slow enough that you can react to them. Down-Smash is it's fastest smash. The attack comes out on frame 14, and sends us out at a downward angle. When separated or as Sopo, this essentially means death if you are close to the edge and get hit by this. Up-Smash comes out on Frame 17. It has decent priority as it beats D-Air. Watch out for the boost smash. It slides surprisingly far, and it moves fast. F-Smash is its most powerful smash attack. It hits on Frame 16 and has good killing power.
Jiggypuff's Dash-Attack is worth mentioning. It comes out on frame 4, and can be used as a surprise kill move. In the Ice Climber's case, it will generally send us off stage and set up for a gimp kill.
Of course Jigglypuff will be in the air for almost the entire match. It's Jigglypuff's greatest strength and one of our weaknesses. Jigglypuff is the 2nd fastest character in the air. Its aerial acceleration is also really good, allowing it to weave in and out while attacking.
N-Air is a good move to knock us away. It has a deceiving hitbox as it reaches out pretty far in front, and its entire body acts as a hitbox. F-Air is disjointed and has good range. It comes out on frame 8, and is an excellent gimping tool. It also has kill power when unstated at higher percents. B-Air is weaker than F-Air, but it works the same as F-Air essentially. It can work as a wall of pain offstage. It can be used to approach on stage. It's quicker than F-Air and has less cooldown, so with good spacing it can link into itself numerous times. It also has less range. D-Air is a multi-hit move, that can split up the Climbers. It can cause tripping, and can still set up for a Rest attack or other moves. Up-Air juggles pretty well.
Jigglypuff's Rollout attack (Neutral B) has lot of knockback when charged. It moves fast and can kill early. Rollout is avoidable by jumping. Blizzard will always beat it out, so using a Blizzard wall protects you from Rollout. Side-B (Pound) has a lot of priority and lingers for long time. It pops the Climbers into the air. It also ***** shields (takes out half). Up-B (Sing) puts opponents to sleep. It has a small radius and only works when your in range on the ground. It can be canceled at the edge. It's useless move as it leaves it open to punishment.
Down-B (Rest) got nerfed in Melee, but still has its uses. It's Jiggypuff's quickest attack (frame 2.) It's still powerful (not nearly as powerful as N64/Melee though.) If you somehow manage to survive, a flower is left on your head, which does even more damage. It can kill around 70 or higher, and can be canceled by water. Rest also has invincibility frames for a little over half a second, and good Jigglpuff mains can interrupt an attack simply by resting you while you are attacking. Jigglypuff is left vulnerable for 3 seconds after initiating the attack, so if they whiff, it equals punishment. Also there's 2 Climbers, so the possibility of punishing is possible.
Jigglypuff has a good grab game, which is completely nullified by Nana standing by your side.
Offstage is a nightmare for the Ice Climbers in this matchup. It is most important to keep Nana by you. Jigglypuff ***** us offstage and it's too easy to Wall of Pain Nana. With Nana gone it makes it more difficult to dispose of Jigglypuff and get back onto the stage.
Jigglypuff generally lacks range. Our attacks have more range and priority, so it has to work around our attacks and avoid them as best as it can while dealing damage. Blizzard beats and outranges everything it can do. Jigglypuff is the lightest character in the game, so it shouldn't take much to get it into kill percent.
Grabbing Jigglypuff is extremely difficult, and you will lose if you try to spam grabs. If you do manage to get the grab, F-Throw works pretty well. For B-Throw and D-Throw's, the timing has to be tight or else you will mess up. You have to grab sooner than with the other lightweights.
Jigglypuff has a lot of stage advantages on us. Stages with low celings and areas where they can attack from below help them (Brinstar, Delfino, Halberd.) Stages like Japes and Delfino have water that can cancel their Rest. Jigglypuff doesn't die from the water easily on that stage and can eaisly gimp the Ice Climbers here. Frigate and Rainbow Cruise are also bad stages to go to against Jigglypuff. But the stage you should avoid the most is Norfair. With ledges everywhere, it will be hard to attack. Also it can attack from below the platforms easily. Final Destination and Yoshi's Island (Brawl) will work well against Jigglypuff.
This matchup is about even, probably 60-40 in Jigglypuff's advantage. We both have huge advantages and disadvantages against each other. Stage selection may give one character an advantage over the other, and Jigglypuff does better on more stages than the Ice Climbers do.
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[COLOR=cyan]best stage to use:FD[/COLOR]
[COLOR=cyan]bet grab to use:b-throw to d-throw[/COLOR]Ratio-65:35
out of the higher tier characters, this one is probobly the easiest.there are till plentty thing to watch out for, but just space properly with blizzard and sheildgrab and this match is pretty much yours
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[COLOR=cyan]best stage to use:FD[/COLOR]
[COLOR=cyan]bet grab to use:f-throw[/COLOR]Ratio-6:4
Vulcan Jab can kind of work, but it's generally not worth it. Sure it's faster than any of our moves, and it hits enough to split us up, but it is possible to shield grab Kirby before the fury of hit come. If they try to use it as a wall, it's possible to running Powershield-Grab it. If we get caught in it, we can DI out and possibly punish. Circle DI or Smash DI can land us behind Kirby, where his jab doesn't cover him well at all.
Kirby's Tilts all come out quickly. F-Tilt lacks range and isn't safe on the shield. D-Tilt has deceptive range and has a high chance of tripping, and has Inturruped as Soon as Frames. Up-Tilt comes out on frame 4 on the ground. It has good priority and works as a good juggling move at low percents, or a setup move at higher percents.
Kirby's feet are disjointed, so he sends his opponents at different trajectories if he connects with his toes with some attacks. Kirby's F-Smash one of his most reliable kill moves. It has decent speed and a lot of knockback when sweetspoted. The end of the hitbox sends the opponent upwards. Up-Smash has decent knockback and has a weak hitbox behind it. Down-Smash sends opponents outward at the tip, and Upward from closer in. It's his quickest smash.
Dash Attack can be annoying to deal with sometimes. It hits 6 times, with the last hit popping you into the air. It can be DI out of, and is punishable if it misses or if all the hits are blocked.
Kirby will be playing this matchup in the air most of the time though. His aerials generally lack range. His N-Air autocancel's well, and can be used as a get off me move. F-Air is a multi-hit move that isn't used that much from what I've seen. It doesn't have the range or knockback that B-Air has. Up-Air is a good juggling move that has good reach above him. His D-Air can be used on the stage to split the Climbers up. It's a multi-hit move, that has a ground hitbox upon landing.
B-Air is the aerial you'll see the most. It has the most range and it's fast. It also has good knockback, with KO potential when fresh at high percents. This attack stays out for a long time and can be difficult to punish when perfectly spaced, due to it's low end lag.
His Neutral-B (Swallow) has many uses. He can copy an opponent's B move. In this case our Ice Block, which won't lead to much. He can swallow one Climber and spit them back out into the other one to deal damage to them. At the edge, he can swallow one and shoot them under the stage or Swallowcide. Side-B has huge knockback and is used more in the air. Kirby's Up-B (Final Cutter) can hit up to 3 times up close and the Shockwave can cut through Blizzard. Stone makes Kirby invunrable to attacks for a short time. This move has enough power to KO at high percents. It has a hitbox to the sides when used on the ground.
If Kirby tries to grab us, they will most likely Up-Throw. Up-Throw is nearly instant and can be harder to punish if there is a platform above. You can hit Kirby while he's landing.
Kirby can edgeguard us eaisly. His B-Air also serves as a Wall of Pain. Kirby can D-Air to Footstool if you try to recover from below.
Kirby doesn't have much of an approach, and Blizzard beats out anything up close except Final Cutter and Stone. His ground game becomes limited and they will mainly try to space us with B-Air's with a few other attacks mixed in.
I think it's 60-40 in our favor, but they can counterpick us pretty easily. They beat us on stages like Rainbow Cruise, Norfair, and Brinstar, but we beat them on most neutrals.
Link
Ratio-55:45
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[COLOR=cyan]best stage to use:hmm...FD?[/COLOR]
[COLOR=cyan]best grab to use: f-throw to edge and spike[/COLOR]Ratio-45:55
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[COLOR=cyan]best stage to use:FD[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#00ffff]best grab to use: f-throw to edge and spike[/COLOR]Ratio-65:35
Pk fire Is easy to block by an ice block not THAT big of a problem for IC's
Pk thunder1 is a **** atleast Offstage it is If it hits you offstage your IC's will desynch and when your Double jump is already used your Up b will not work correctly anymore and your ic's will both do that little hop and fall to their death
Pkthunder2 Just shield Nuff said. but when it hits you you will get some damage
Pk freeze Doesnt hit me that much but when it does it will be irritating mostly when i play lucas and hit with pk freeze i will use Nair and that ***** :o
His jabs are a great GTFO move and when used right the ice climbers cant grab
his side tilt is pretty fast but its range is crap well.. decent its doesnt desynch the ic's on low damage only at 120%+
his down tilt could let you trip wich will mostly be used to smash you away so thats a good move imo
His uptilt is pretty good it can be comboed with a downthrow up to 15% but after that it is good to do when someones in the air
Side smash: its fast and strong and it can be great in some situations it kills pretty fast even faster with tipper
Down smash doesnt hit that frequently the first hit is a great KO move the second only kills at high percentage REALLY high and the third hits knockback is just crap but the damage equalizes that
Upsmash is EPIC when it hits but it doesnt hit that much cause of the lag that comes along with that move if it misses IC's will grab and mostly he is screwed
Nair Its a SWEET move i love it it is nice to do Shorthopped and it can seperate the ice climbers but it doesnt hit that much and its range is crap so IC's will other shieldgrab or just smash
Fair A great move to get some range and move the IC's away
Uair hmmm it isnt used that well against ic's imo cause its easy to see coming and theres always an airdodge only with PKfreeze it will 100% hit
Bair The spike is epic and the none spike part is a great gtfo move and its good for spacing it doesnt seperate the ice climbers but it DOES desynch them
Dair is a good move but the landing lag is just too irritating i got killed by that little lag soo many times
And now the most irritating thing Lucas is one of the harder characters to chaingrab it is possible but when you play online you must know your non grab game cause the lag will backstab you
Lain said:
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[COLOR=cyan]best stage to use:Lylat cruise[/COLOR]
[COLOR=cyan]best grab to use:d-throw to b-throw or b-throw to b-throw[/COLOR]Ratio-65:35
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[COLOR=cyan]best stage to use:Smashville[/COLOR]
[COLOR=cyan]best grab to use:whatever is more confy to you[/COLOR]Ratio-6:4
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[COLOR=cyan]Best Stage(s) to use:[/COLOR]
[COLOR=cyan]Final Destination: Very easy to force him to approach. Control the spacing and you'll do fine.[/COLOR]
[COLOR=cyan]Smashville: Really helps alot, especially for recovery.[/COLOR]
[COLOR=cyan][COLOR=red]NOT Battlefield: He can use the platforms to camp you and you run the risk of getting harassed by Uair and utilt.[/COLOR][/COLOR]
[COLOR=cyan]best grab to use:whateverer is more confty for you, i use fthrow to b-throw[/COLOR]Ratio: 4:6
He out ranges and out prioritizes you on the ground and air. Most of his attacks are double or more of your throw range allowing him to easily space you, and he has some good options to stop your approach. SH Fair will go over ice blocks and hit straight through your blizzards and squall hammers. He also has a good arsenal of edgeguarding tactics to disrupt the IC's recovery.
F-air if properly spaced beats out all of the IC's attacks except blizzard (and maybe belay?). I don't know if anyone else has experienced this but I'v actually had a Marth, who is stuck in the freeze frames from the blizzard, actually F-air me OUT of it. It does not happen every often, but it can. They can also Dolphin Slash out of it and hit you if they DI towards you then use it.
its in his favor but stopping/edge guarding him is easy. his dancing blade is his best tool in this matchup and he WILL abuse it. you can try shielding it but more than likely some part will shield poke one or both of you. power shielding makes this matchup a lot easier to get grabs. on top of all of this blizzard is our ****** tool. desync'd alting blizzards is just amazing on marth. use ice desync'd ice blocks to force an approach and then just cg his medium weight *** all over the place.
it is important to remember, however, that good marths will have terrific spacing making most of this very hard (see: near impossible) to pull off.
Meta Knight
Ratio-5:5
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-Ftilt and Dtilt beat out all of your ground attacks.
-All of his aerials will beat out any of yours.
-Don't roll behind him or you'll eat a Dsmash.
-His edge guarding will easily gimp your recovery.
-His speed, mobility, and size will easily allow him to maneuver past your camping setups.
-Blizzard helps stop tornado spam and several of his other approaching methods.
-Uair will beat out all of MK's attacks if he's above you.
-Use squall hammer to change momentum to avoid UpB when he's below you.
This is probably the IC's hardest match-up thus far. He beats you out in the air and ground, his speed and size make him hard to keep out, has good aerial mobility allowing him to space away from grabs, has ridiculous edgeguarding abilities to easily gimp their recovery, and the IC's have no reliable way to stop tornado spamming. Everything about this match-up is simply hard.
Against MK, Your going to be using SH Blizzard alot, as it out prioritizes the Tornado and his glide attacks. Your also going to be abusing your shield alot so it's harder for them to separate you and Nana. Also when there using Tornado, if you can manage a SH Single Blizzard, you can go in for the grab and attempt at a 0-Death. I'll write more about this later.
The MK fight is all about spacing. You can outrange him and forward-B can get through a lot of his attacks, even clashing with the tornado. If he uses tornado you can just sit in your shield and it rarely penetrates it. (may open up a grab opportunity too, as he lands) Use a lot of f-tilts to keep him away and look for grab opportunities since MK is really easy to chaingrab. You can even chaingrab him with a solo climber it seems.just note that actually setting up the grab is the REAL problem
- Ice blocks and blizzards are your BEST FRIEND.
- It helps a lot of you play AS Metaknight to know his about his openings, which he has very few of.
- Capitalize as much as possible if he really does mess up and gives you a grab opportunity.
- Shuttle loop and tornado **** everything, as usual. Except blizzard. (But even if he does tornado into your blizzard, it's not like you have dealt a lot of damage or created a guaranteed follow up.)
- This is an uphill battle up the ***. Solo popo is even worse, nigh impossible IMO.
- His priority is great, and this is still an uphill battle for IC's, but it's not nearly as hard as MK because GW doesn't have the great speed behind his range and priority. This makes it easier to grab him, or punish his mistakes. Watch closely, and know how to space his ranged attacks.
Fsmash>Mach Tornado. It's a reflex thing. On the downside, you can't shorthop fsmash, which limits movement
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Random blizzards>random nadoes. Powershield to massive chaingrab ftw. His advantage consists in KOing your partner, which MAY ACTUALLY TAKE LONGER THAN IT TAKES FOR YOU TO LAND A GRAB. IC's upair owns airborne MK. Try your best to KO from every grab. Fsmash near the edge KOs from 100%.
Its just trying ur best with ic to outlast the gay stuff mk can dish out (tornado/dair camping) to find an opening to land the death grab.
Only real advice i can give is... never stay in ur shield for too long. You need a full shield to shield tornado (you have to tilt shield so you dont get poked). If its slightly smaller u will get caught in it. If they are in the air do
well placed uairs and dont be afraid to grab them when they try to attack you on the ground because they are just asking for it.
Really fun match up imo because it really is outsmarting and spotting mistakes to punish mk. You will win if you are smarter than the mk and know the match up.
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[COLOR=cyan]FD is a no-brainer.[/COLOR]
[COLOR=cyan]Smashville is mini-fd, so the opponent has to fight within [B]closer[/B] ranges of you. The small platform allows for camping and ****, but if you're smart about it you can keep pressure on them when the platform moves over the stage.[/COLOR]
[COLOR=cyan]Battlefield isn't that bad. People overlook the fact that it's hard to approach an ice climber from above a platform. Nigh impossible. People can platform camp on fd, but the platforms don't move so you can just poke at them with two uairs or an uair and bair or w/e. Usmash pokes through the platforms.[/COLOR]
[COLOR=cyan]PS1 is a handy tradeoff. It's large, open, and flat. There are two platforms, but it's ridiculous to even try and camp on either or both of them because they are too small, way too far spaced apart, and usmash pokes through the platforms here as well. None of the transformations are very pleasant at all. You can actually throw between the transformation and not have it **** up your grab. But that's a little too hard, so I just cg them to the little white sides on either side and bthrow->dthrow cg there because it's unaffected by change.[/COLOR]
[COLOR=cyan]Yoshi's Island is my least liked stage. But even that isn't bad. Again, it's ridiculous to try and approach from above a platform from the opponent's point of view because there's no really safe options. Also, on the ledges, you can ledge hop blizzard and you both will slide back onto the edge after it's done lol.[/COLOR]
[COLOR=cyan]People the key here is that IC's have an insane air game and it must be utilized more. It counters people shielding on platforms,[/COLOR]Ratio-5:5
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Originally Posted by PKNintendo
This matchup isn't to complicated. We all fear the IC almighty grab, but to what extent? Their puny grab range, that any decent player can outspace them. On the ground, simply yo-yo's can help keep Ness in the clear while the IC approach with the squall. Use simple ground attacks, such as jabs and tilts, since the IC will punish any messups with a grab. PKF should only be used when your SURE you can get away with it.
(alternatively, those skilled with the mighty arts of PK jump and Firebounding, can use those instead)
Punish whiffed smashes with a grab. Make you use Ness dash grab, since Ness will slide when he grabs his prey, just enough time for Nana to be killed with a backthrow (with a dash grab, Popo will barely have enough time to react) He you grab popo, quickly use a backthrow, less you want Nana to attack you. Seriously killing the IC is a piece of cake with backthrow. Popo on his own is relatively light, and Nana has really stupid AI and will DI in the WRONG direction, killing her earrrrrrrrrrly. (75% early!) Once she's gone, deal with the lone Popo, and keep him at bay with an aerial ****. When the time comes, you can backthrow for hs death.
In the air, you can combo with aerials to also keep the IC's at bay. The squall hammer is annoying, but escaping it's wrath and leading into a punish is really a work of art. Anticipate and lead into a PKT2 on a whiffed aerial squall. Once the IC are off the ledge, you can use PK Flash to kill them on getting back on the stage with such a predictable recovery. (If Nana is gone, popo is screwed) or you can go and chase them yourselves and spike them with dair.
*Ness is lucky by that fact that he can't get forward throwed CG. They have to use the other methods.
On the flipside, IC have plenty of tools to kill you. Getting grabbed by a GOOD IC is scary. They the average down throw CG, and can get you to the ledge to attempt to spike you (with Nana) The spike usually isn't strong enough to kill you at 0%, by they will attempt to gimp PKT with an ice block. You are spiked, used your PKT2 ASAP, or you will die. If your they hit you, double jump (you should save it) if not, your screwed. Squall hammer, can stop your ground approaches too. Getting grabbed and rapped by blizzard is not fun either.
IC are indeed a tough opponent, but they are not impossible. 5-5
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[COLOR=cyan]Best stage to use:Norfair(although no one went over this, PKT cant go through the platforms, and if youve really got your grabs down, this isint a bad stage to use)[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#00ffff]best grab to use:b-throw to b-throw or to d-throw[/COLOR]Ratio-45:55
Quote:
her fair is her killing move. another attack to look out for is toad (activates with ice blocks, blizzard, belay, etc.). Also, she can stall by floating off the side and then using umbrella to edge hog/hit from bellow. he short hopping to try and mindgame really doesn't do much (sorry chibi, but you just look like a spaz). if you just keep a level head and think through your approach/timing its an easy fight with few surprises.
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it basically comes down to both characters strengths, IC's have their grabs and peaches is her air game, peach can basically shut down the IC's grab game while still maintaining her strong arial game, and yes IC's DO have other things besides chaingrabs, but w/out them they aren't really that great honestly, its like taking away snakes grenades/nikitas, he could still put up a fight but in the end he'd have nothing to force people to approach and would be too slow to go on the offensive.......so that was probably a bad analogy, but you get my point, this matchup ruins IC's grab game but peach's air game still works just as well as any other matchup besides maybe the MK matchup.
Pikachu
Ratio-45:55
Pikachu's Disadvantages:
-His downsmash has enough lag that if you shield it, it should allow for a free grab.
-His aerial are awful and force him to get in close. If predicted, they allow for a pretty easy grab.
-Thunder (if used... which can be rare) is easy to shield and get a free grab
-Any badly spaced or predicted move, since pikachu lacks range, can open him up for a grab.
-ICs have higher priority in most cases.
-Pikachu does not have a safe approach.
-To seperate the ICs Pikachu has to approach.
-ICs tilts beat Pikachu's tilts and air game.
Pikachu's Advantages:
-Down smash and thunder easily seperate the ICs
-Has a variety of powerful moves (thunder and foward smash) that can easily gimp a wandering nana at low percents.
-Pretty good spam that can stop desynched ICs in there tracks.
-Doesn't have to approach
-Can easily avoid a close up confrontation because of his quick speed and QAC.
-Foward smash outranges most of the ICs moves (all except down-b) and is hard to punish if it is spaced well.
Desyncing is not helpful in this matchup since his thunderjolts go through blizzard.
This matchup really involves a lot of running around, avoiding his ****, and shielding his moves.
You have to play against Pika like he's MK, and poke at him with aerials until he makes a mistake and gets grabbed, or until he can just die from an aerial or smash or w/e.
This is a ****ing annoying matchup for IC. I would have to say it's even, or maybe 55:45 in pika's favor.
Patience is the best tip I can give you.
Olimar
Ratio-7:3
Pit
Ratio-5:5
Just like Falco, Pit's arrows will go over ice blocks, through blizzards, stop squall hammers, and disrupt any desynch attempt. This just completely disrupts your approach, and his good edgeguarding allows for early gimps.
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[COLOR=cyan]best stage to use:Smashville[/COLOR]
[COLOR=cyan]best grab to use: whatever's conformable to you(i use f-throw to b-throw)[/COLOR]Ratio - 6:4
just watch xD
Lain vs NinjaLink
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qt7i1v77jo8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idBH1UVifSI
Lain vs HolyNightmare
(First Match Not Recorded; Lain Lost)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkA0nx8XOlE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcCVJqnZQ1A
just stuff to watch out for.v.
Spotdodge to Dsmash *****...
Dtilt trip *****..
Nair annoying *****...
Ftilt range *****...
Uair splits *****...
CHARGIN HIS LAZER goes through our blizzard *****...
Charged Gyro can't be blocked by out Ice Blocks.... *****....
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[COLOR=cyan]best stage to use:battlefeild is better choice than FD imo,youll be able to stay under him and ****[/COLOR]
[COLOR=cyan]best grab to use: f-throw to f-throw(buffred)[/COLOR]Ratio - 60:40
Sheik
Ratio-8:2
Sheik's game against IC's is more of a bair/nair/jab/tilt hit and run game, combined with needles and possibly chains.
She has very few safe approaches, but they are there. Fast falled nairs into jabs are really good. Jabbing is basically the only way to prevent getting grabbed if you are too close.
Sheik shouldn't be approaching in the first place, so charged needles are the greatest strength she can use. The only problem is that it takes time to charge them, and IC's will usually be trying to approach with desynchs.... or the general run up and shield approach. If sheik gets grabbed she is done.
Sheik can fight back... but basically the IC's can **** her still. Staying in the air and fairing worked in melee. In Brawl... it's more about hit-and-run, jab, and PLATFORMS.
Needles are too good as well.
Snake
Ratio-3:7
-His ground game is better than yours because his Ftilt, Dtilt, and jab will beat out anything you have.
-His air game isn't exactly better than yours but Utilt and Bair will beat out any attack you do in the air.
-As long as he holds a nade you cannot do CG's because they'll explode midway through.
-Desynched ice blocks will hurt his approach since he can't crawl or boost smash and must jump where you can take advantage of the lag from his aerials and punish with a grab.
-Desynched ice blocks will also hurt his camping since it'll interrupt him during the startup of his projectiles, they'll set off nades and mines on contact but not C4, and they can alter the trajectory of missles.
-Blizzard is your only attack that can compete with his range.
-Fair will hit him out of his cypher and spike him.
-In short you can beat him at a distance but you lose up close unless you can get a grab.
He completely destroys the IC's on the ground with his tilts and jabs, and his Utilt makes it risky for the IC's to go into the air. He can also hold a nade to prevent the IC's from grabbing him because it will explode midway through the combo.
Sonic
5:5
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Well you cant shieldgrab sonic when he's doing his spin dash or jumping spin dash. The only way you can really even grab him is if he does a up B to dair and messes up the timing to cancel the lag. Blizzards, IB's and Dairs work well against him. So overall you should keep him the way he is on the chart
Squirtle
5:5
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Squirtle has great priority on his aerials, but he lacks a good approach. His withdraw can be canceled with Blizzard, and his jabs are too short and can be just whacked away with them hammers. Seperating the ICs for him might not be that easy and gimping them isn't easy for him since he can't go far off the ledge. He can annoy the ICs, but he'll have trouble KOing them since half way through, the only attack that can kill would probabily be Usmash.
Toon Link
5:5
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Well desysnced IBs beat out his projectile spamming game, and blizzards do very well in close. He is also very easy to grab because he is forced to approach you when you spam IBs (synced or desynced), with a fair or bair which are both very easy to shieldgrab.
Wario
5:5
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Wario is tough to grab... most of the time he can just hit your shield with an aerial and retreat away safely. He has no range at all. Period. Abuse that advantage carefully, don't get careless and think you are safe just because you have a desynch "wall" put up. He's great at separating Nana, he's great at gimping the IC's even when you have both of them to recover, and even if he doesn't gimp you he can flat out kill you at gross %'s.
It feels like a baiting game, IC's bait Wario into attacking by appearing to make a mistake in spacing, timing, etc. and Wario baits the IC's into going for a grab or an attack when it really isn't safe to do so. I would put it as an even matchup.
Wolf
Ratio-6:4
Yoshi
Ratio-45:55
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Well first of all, they're pretty well matched. Yoshi does better in the air, while IC's does better on the Ground, and have more versatile specials. Problem number one is that Yoshi is probably the best separating character against the IC's. Besides his obvious Egg Lay, His Ftilt, Bair, SideB, UpB Eggs, Ground DownB, Quick Discarding with Grabs, and even his Jab can also separate them easily. The main problem is that once Nana is in the air, Yoshi can very easily follow Nana with a 3 Hit Uair WoP for an easy kill with her relatively dumb AI, which in most cases you are unable to follow to save her.
Problem number Two is that Yoshi can gimp the IC's recovery so well, it's redicious. His Dair can cancel out your UpB. What makes it worse is that it desync's it, so if you panic, both you and Nana will do their UpB at the same time, but won't attach to eachother, Not to mention if you do take your time to readjust, Yoshi will have enough time to Edgehog, making you ditch Nana in most cases. It's the same if you're using your SideB. Dair also works, but Eggs are even worse. If you get hit by an egg when you're recovering with your SideB, it will cause you to scatter, and once again, cause a Desync, which will make Nana drop like a rock if you Panic and don't readjust. Course readjusting could also lead to an edgeguard If Yoshi follows up fast enough.
Course, they still have the legendary Infinite, but It's hard to snag an approaching Yoshi due to his fast horizontal speed, going past a shield grab if it happens. Plus a good Yoshi can deal with Nana easily, so you really won't have many chances doing such. Anyways, That's my view on it. I say about a 2 on your scale. We have 6:4 on ours, and I'm not going to lie, Infinites are scary, but he has so many ways to take out Nana, a good Yoshi usually doesn't need to worry about that.
Zelda
Ratio-55:45
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honestly she mobs the two of you like nobodies business... and the long duration of her USmash and FSmash mean that it's not unlikely that she'll rip at least one of you out of your shield
her normally difficult to land powerhouse aerials have NO trouble hitting your retarted partner the second she/he separates.
She's incredibly resistant to being grabbed, the sole property that puts the icies as high as they are on the teir list...
oh and also, the icies can't really approach her well..... that's a big problem...
and... they are one of the few charcters with a worse air game than Zelda... Zelda can ACTUALLY go into an aerial dogfite with the climbers and come out the victor... and have been predicted to do so.
what do the icies have on Zelda at all?
your projectile spam gets ***** by dins AND nayru's, so you can't camp. your approaches get stuffed... every one of them zelda can beat out. you might have a good CG, but your grab range is attrocious and zelda has enough GTFO moves to get you away if somehow you manage to get close enough to grab. in the air you're one of the few characters that she can completely school. you are vulnerable from below and BOTH sides to death by zelda.
you've got very very little going for you in the matchup. And what do IC's normally consider one of their strongpoints? that people fear the CG so much they have to fight at a range that most characters aren't comfortable with so that they can keep the ICs away... well fortunately that's a range that zelda enjoys being in anyway. Fsamsh and ftilt outrange your everything. and Dsamsh, and Dtilt probably outrange and outspeed anything you have on the ground. Usmash stops all your aerial approaches, and, like nair and fsmash, separates the two of you normally. utilt also stops your aerial approcahes and kills. most of her attacks are unable to be sheildgrabbed. the exception is maybe Nayru's which still functions as a great GTFO move if you manage to be that close.
So, I mean, you have your grab of death when nana's still alive. but other than that, nothing threatening. Considering how much trouble you'll have landing that initial grab on zelda even if you focus on landing it, there's no way that's anywhere NEAR enough of a consideration to make the match even EVEN for you guys. you have that on everyone. you have it on Metaknight. does that make the match yours to lose? no, because if you have only one reliable strategy against an oponent and it's as hard as to land as it is, especially against that character, then you don't have an adantage. period. it's not even even. period. heck. if you didn't have the chaingrab, what would you have at all in the matchup? it'd probably be even worse for you.
Zero Suit Samus
Ratio-55:45
