Guide Ice Climber Match Up Guide

[choknater]

I find that most Falco's miss their L-cancels against shielding ICs. The double shield lag messes up their timing very often. Every Falco that doesn't play ICs a lot will think they're safe attempting pillars, no matter how good they are - and they'll get grabbed.

You are correct, but just a little note about this: Though VERY FEW Falcos know it, there is a way to time the aerial just late enough so that he can l-cancel and shine. When I played against Zhu, he figured out he could fast fall before doing the dair, giving him enough momentum and timing to still be able to pillar me even if I'm shielding. This is why Lixivium's light shield advice is so awesome because you get pushed away, plus it makes it even more difficult for Falco to time.

 

[Delphiki]

They could also just hit L a bit later than usual. The advantage comes not from the inability but from the fact that the average player doesn't know.

Btw when did you play Zhu? I played him for like an hour straight at PK's and he didn't seem to know about that.

 

[Binx]

Hey guys I want to appologyze for the lack of updates I started a new job about 2 weeks ago and things have been hectic. This afternoon around lunch time though I think I will edit Falco and Marth's sections and try to start/finish a YL section.

Any help would be awesome, we definately need some more imput on the Marth matchup, seems like a **** in favor of Marth to me, I would chock it up as my second hardest matchup next to peach.

@ Trail: Wheres that advice holmes? lol

 

[choknater]

They could also just hit L a bit later than usual. The advantage comes not from the inability but from the fact that the average player doesn't know.

Btw when did you play Zhu? I played him for like an hour straight at PK's and he didn't seem to know about that.

That ncb in june where I got 5th, I demolished his Falco in friendlies. Not to discredit him, though, he is just too good but didn't know how to play against IC's at the time. Lo and behold, two weeks later, he figured out how to l-cancel on me, how to spam the lasers into forward throw, and lots of anti-choknater mindgames in general (his analysis was pretty deep when he explained it to me O.O).

 

[choknater]

Yoshi counters Ice Climbers?

I hate to double post, but let's let this slide as a necessary bump, okay?

....


Honestly, I believe this to be an EXTREMELY deadly matchup for those who don't have the experience. And it's very likely that you don't. There are very little Yoshi mains out there, slim to none. Yoshi secondaries are rare; he's not a popular low tier to pick up. No jumping out of shields? Poor special moves? Bad grab?

Don't let any of that fool you.

Since I wrote up a guide to fighting Doc through my experience with HomeMadeWaffles, I find it only fitting that I should also write a guide to fighting Yoshi through my experience with Park5150. They are both my former crew members and both incredibly well-versed in fighting IC's. (e.g. they totally demolish every other IC player in my region, and I totally demolish other people who use their characters.)

So here's why Yoshi can **** Ice Climbers. You might not believe your ears or your eyes. Maybe Park and I should record some new videos. He has beaten my IC's with Yoshi each time that we played each other in tournaments, forcing me to counter pick with Sheik/Falcon.



What to watch out for:

- Sheer speed! If you've ever seen those godly Fumi videos, you could imagine the kind of destruction Yoshi could wreak if he spammed DJC aerials on your IC's. DJC nairs, fairs, uairs will immediately separate you and they are so fast that you have to be really aware to be able to counter them. His fsmash (like Falcons) jerks back before hitting you and has mega range, so it's pretty safe. Dsmash is fast. And we all know what fast dsmashes do to IC's. Yoshi's sliding light shield after rolling can easily get him away from your smashes. Wanna grab him? His dsmash out of shield comes out almost immediately.

- If you can avoid his spike, please do so. Meteor smashes might not be popular these days because they require precise situational positioning... but it's pretty easy for Yoshi because of these reasons: its range goes pretty far in front of him, IC's can't sweetspot, and his double jump protects him from being gimped if he misses

- The lick grab is hard to hit with but still watch out for his dthrow, it's really effective.

Do's
- Chain grab. Just watch out for yoshi's DJC counters. Don't know what that is? If he attempts to DI out of the grab, it's not certain that you can chase his Di and grab him again. If he double jumps toward you and quickly nairs, it can hit you before you grab him. It's just that fast. I've tried JC chain grabs and it works, but don't mess up and do a uair.

- Dthrow dsmash chain grab works great. It works just as well as it does against Sheik. Not inescapable, but still a good choice. Yoshi's weight also makes it easier to execute.

- Face away from him if you're dsmashing so you can match his dsmashing speed. It takes a little extra fraction of a second for your hammer to get in front of you during your dsmash, so you want that fast startup frame of the hammer behind you to clash with Yoshi's tail. If your spacing is correct (which is pretty d*mn hard) then your hammer should win because it's disjointed. Getting dsmashed by Yoshi is dangerous in general, but yeah, this is helpful to know.

- He can't sweetspot either! Unless he is totally precise with his recovery egg cancels, you can gimp him IF AND ONLY IF you hit him hard enough. His double jump gets through anything at low %'s. You will need ice blocks, fsmash, and bair to edgeguard. Bair bair bair. At high %'s, your first bair will take out his double jump, and the second (nana's) bair will kill him!

- Please be very aware and use quick reflexes. Chances are a good Yoshi player will have incredible reflexes. I can vouch for Park in saying that Yoshi (and Mewtwo) are technically the most difficult characters to play, moreso than Fox. Believe me kids.

- Grab. He can't CC counter you if you grab.

- Uair and Bair. Controlling Yoshi in the air is a great way to control the matchup because of his lack of 2nd jump. If you gimp after his 2nd jump, he is dead for sure.


Don'ts:

- Rush toward him recklessly. You might be thinking "duh!" but maybe even your normal playstyle can be looked at as reckless against yoshi. His dsmash, fsmash, and djc counters will eliminate a lot of your approach options. Rather, you'd want to get yourself in a position to hit him hard. If you hit him hard, he is much less likely to counter you. He can CC many things. So if you're not gonna grab him, your best approaches are: fsmash, fair, and bair. Yeah, they take quite a bit of accuracy but you're gonna have to master it.

- Don't try to dair dthrow chain grab him too much. He's heavy, so your timing may be thrown off. His djc counter has gotten him out of this quite a few times because although he is heavy, his falling speed isn't too fast, so he can DI out of it. If he can DJC counter, he will almost always do it if his DI is correct and you don't JC grab. *sigh* so much tech skill in this matchup. I'd really suggest you just smash him out of your grabs instead. Or wobble, if you swing that way.

- Don't dair. This is way, way too easy to CC. And Yoshi's (like samuses and peaches) will CC dsmash you like no tomorrow. Dair might be a decent move to use in other matchups, but not here.

Do/Don't?
I don't really know which to put one in, but it's still an important part of the matchup. I'm talking about projectiles.
- Blocks/Blizzards. Well, ranged damage is always nice against Yoshi. More damage reduces his potential to DJC and CC counter. But focusing too much on ranged damage makes it incredibly easy for Yoshi to approach you. One example is desynched Ice Blocks... You might feel like doing it for that extra damage, but how easy is it for Yoshi to jump really far on top of you and fair you? If spacing is proper, you won't be able to shield grab him. And if you whiff a shield grab, you get dsmashed. What an annoying matchup =\

Tips:
- It's hard to explain this matchup in words without experiencing it yourself. For most of you Ice Climbers players out there, it's probably not gonna happen. But in case some godly Yoshi pops out of the depths of the tournament scene, you'll be ready.

The only tip I can give you for IC vs Yoshi is get a lot of experience. I know exactly how to counter Yoshi with any character, but with some chars (IC, Mewtwo, Pikachu, etc.) it's straight up impossible. If y'all can figure something out for me, it'd be greatly appreciated.

EDIT: I can do a write-up on Link later if you guys want.

 

[Binx]

Thanks Chok, could someone do a younglink for me? I should also add some of the most recent wobbles advice from other threads, he has been a big help in my Marth game as well as other match ups.

 

[Lixivium]

Good stuff Chok, I've played against good Yoshis and did not do well at all.

I think I once posted some Fumi vs. Domo videos in this forum, maybe we ought to include a link to that topic...

 

[Binx]

Alright Chok, I've finally added Yoshi, good stuff, I've never played one myself but it seems like its a tough match up.

Sorry to the IC board about not keeping this as updated as I would have liked, I've been super busy at work and moving among other things. I'll try and do things with this on the weekends. Neald is more than welcome to update this for me whenever he wants too(although I doubt anyone has time with school now).

 

[Twin_A]

Thanks, this was really helpful :D

 

[Binx]

Thanks, this was really helpful :D

Glad we could help you, which match up were you reading?

 

[Twin_A]

all of them actually lol. here in NM we dont have anyone who uses IC's so i didnt know how to face anyone with them. So this thread saved my life at the last monthly :D

 

[Binx]

awesome

 

[billywill]

Nice!!!!!1!!1!!11 helped me alot

 

[Going_Big]

One thign i noticed while playing against a moderatly good shiek. Was stay away from her Uairs Dairs Usmash and mostly anything that will send you up. Guess thats it also shes a nana rapist keep nana close or yuoll be messed up.

I usually use Fairs Bairs.

Oh and watch for the needles.

 

[Twin_A]

For facing peach, would you be able to short how fair (or bair) her d smash to not only avoid it but get a quick hit in?

 

[Binx]

If you know she is going to dsmash and you properly space and time a fair you can get away with a free hit, if it isn't crouch canceled it might even send her up in the air for an up air or two. Also if she does crouch cancel you have a possible tech chase into a grab smash or wobble. Bair could work at medium-high percents, but I dont know how you would get the spacing unless the peach was immobile for a good ammount of time or chasing you.

 

[Twin_A]

The only scenario i could think up for the bair was if you were wavedashing backwards towards her, she anticipated it and d smashed (or got nervous) and then you SH bair.
Thanks bro you're awesome

 

[Binx]

No problem, against a good player though they probably wouldnt panic at a wavedash, they definitely wouldnt miss space the move, its viable but I wouldnt try it often against more skilled players, the short hop fair is one of the only weapons ICs have against peach, as far as I can tell she has a tough time of it unless she predicts it.

 

[TJJ]

Make sure to do a guide for ICs vs. Link soon.

 

[Binx]

Anyone want to do link for me? I don't really play against any Links, off the top of my head I would think that it would be a pretty favorable match up for us asside from the projectile spam, one grab is death in that match up right?

 

[choknater]

Anyone want to do link for me? I don't really play against any Links, off the top of my head I would think that it would be a pretty favorable match up for us asside from the projectile spam, one grab is death in that match up right?

Yup, you're right. The matchup is pretty darn easy, CG's are easy on him, so are grab combos. Projectile spamming is pretty hard to deal with against Link, but it's nothing compared to Falco or Samus. I guess I could write it, but I really don't find it necessary until some major IC-****** Link strategy arises. Which is highly unlikely

 

[Twin_A]

just watch out fair links projectile spamming above all else. if he's smart he'll jab a lot and use his nair while retreating to keep you both at bay. Then of course theres his whirlwind, but thats punishable :D

 

[choknater]

i looked at the falco and sheik matchup guides and they have matchup percentages. i recommend that you should put some up Binx. here's my suggestions but they're by no means full-proof:

vs Fox 45/55
vs Sheik 55/45
vs Falcon 50/50
vs Samus 40/60
vs Marth 50/50 <---- this might be just me, but he's really not as hard as some think
vs Luigi 35/65
vs Doc 60/40
vs Ganon 55/45
vs Peach 30/70
vs Mario 70/30
vs Jiggs 50/50
vs Falco 55/45
vs Yoshi 60/40

looking at the rest of the characters, basic IC play should give them the upper hand in pretty much every matchup except Ice Climbers Ditto and Mr. Game & Watch.

i might do write-ups on those in the near future. N1c2k3 or AzN_LeP probably know more about IC dittos than I do, though. They played with Chu often, I believe.

 

[Binx]

i looked at the falco and sheik matchup guides and they have matchup percentages. i recommend that you should put some up Binx. here's my suggestions but they're by no means full-proof:

vs Fox 45/55
vs Sheik 55/45
vs Falcon 50/50
vs Samus 40/60
vs Marth 50/50 <---- this might be just me, but he's really not as hard as some think
vs Luigi 35/65
vs Doc 60/40
vs Ganon 55/45
vs Peach 30/70
vs Mario 70/30
vs Jiggs 50/50
vs Falco 55/45
vs Yoshi 60/40

looking at the rest of the characters, basic IC play should give them the upper hand in pretty much every matchup except Ice Climbers Ditto and Mr. Game & Watch.

i might do write-ups on those in the near future. N1c2k3 or AzN_LeP probably know more about IC dittos than I do, though. They played with Chu often, I believe.

That's a thought but I just don't agree with percentages, it doesn't take into account specific skill and it isn't really a practical way to measure advantages, Take Marth for example, if he plays very campy and carefull with fairs its very hard to hit him, this is a tactic that ***** my ICs and I am sure it has dominated some of us as well. However that doesn't directly equate to a 10% advantage for Marth, and even if it did thats a meaningless number. If you play the game you will know its a hard match up provided both players are relatively skilled, if they are not relatively skilled they are not on a high enough metagame for the numbers to be relevant and if they aren't technical enough to apply the strategies listed here then they need to practice more.

So in conclusion I would rather have people list tactics that work against them and try and solve the question themselves, if they cant then they can ask us and we can see what to do. Generally speaking though if a character outranges you its going to be a **** hard match up, same with characters that are faster than you, especially at high levels of the game where a single grab can become so much after you factor in advantages in stage position and what not.

The closest to this I would ever get is something like green = easy, yellow = nearly even, red = **** hard. But even that is pretty superfulous

 

[choknater]

aite whateva

 

[TJJ]

Yeah, In the Ganon matchups it shows a list in order from biggest advantage to biggest disadvantage:

Advantage (for Ganon)
Bowser..medium/big..
Mewtwo..medium/big..
Pichu..medium/big..
G&W..medium/big..
Yoshi..medium..
Y.Link..medium..
Pikachu..medium..
Kirby..medium..
Ness..medium..
Zelda..medium..
Luigi..medium/small..
DK..medium/small..
Roy..medium/small..
Mario..small..

Null (even)
Ganon

Disadvantage (against Ganon)
Sheik..GOD STOP HER
Fox..medium/big..
Falco..medium/big..
Peach..medium..
C.Falcon..medium..
Marth..medium..
Samus..medium..
Ice climbers..medium..
Jigglypuff..medium..
Dr.Mario..medium..
Link..medium/small..

If you added on a list like this would be REALLY helpful.

 

[Binx]

Yeah, In the Ganon matchups it shows a list in order from biggest advantage to biggest disadvantage:

Advantage (for Ganon)
Bowser..medium/big..
Mewtwo..medium/big..
Pichu..medium/big..
G&W..medium/big..
Yoshi..medium..
Y.Link..medium..
Pikachu..medium..
Kirby..medium..
Ness..medium..
Zelda..medium..
Luigi..medium/small..
DK..medium/small..
Roy..medium/small..
Mario..small..

Null (even)
Ganon

Disadvantage (against Ganon)
Sheik..GOD STOP HER
Fox..medium/big..
Falco..medium/big..
Peach..medium..
C.Falcon..medium..
Marth..medium..
Samus..medium..
Ice climbers..medium..
Jigglypuff..medium..
Dr.Mario..medium..
Link..medium/small..

If you added on a list like this would be REALLY helpful.

This is great, I lol at Sheik I guess I can mimic that with Peach. Sure if someone knows more I can do a list like that using Choks percentages and just say medium small heavy advantage. That works for me.

 

[chowmein591]

Nice guide! Good Job

 

[Delphiki]

Was this post completely disregarded or did you just miss it? I think it has a lot of good info.

I find that most Falco's miss their L-cancels against shielding ICs. The double shield lag messes up their timing very often. Any Falco that doesn't have much ICs experience will think they're safe attempting pillars - and they'll get grabbed.

When you get a grab, you have three options:

1) with both Climbers, you can DtDair Falco to death (80-150%, depending on location and DI).

2) with one Climber, you can U-throw into dash attack, U-Smash, U-tilt, or another grab. All of these lead into a Smash if you want. The only way Falco can escape is by you messing up or by jumping. So wait for the jump, then U-air right above the place he hits the button, and you'll intercept with (hopefully) enough time to land and continue. If you manage to get the U-air off into another hit, the Falco will almost surely die. If this proves unsuccesful, you can:

3) D- or B-throw into a techchase. Rinse and repeat.


Just like Samus, powershielding works great, but I'd like to mention that it's possible to powershield a projectile, then have it hit the other Climber. To avoid this you can dash forward before you powershield, putting Popo out front.


A smart Falco will pummel you with lasers or space aerials well and go for grab > F-throw, separating your Climbers and killing one. So be careful blindly sheilding.

Dash attack works wonders if you're looking to approach without a shield, but only with two Climbers (with one Climber, powershielding is much easier, so I advise that) - reason being one climber will take the hit from the laser and the other will continue.

Finally, you can fight fire with fire - pick Falco! x_x Use Ice Blocks (synced) against laser spamming - you shoot two for his one, and each one does about the same amount of damage as a laser. This will force Falco to either approach or take to higher ground, giving you the advantage.

 

[Binx]

My eyes apparently didn't want to read that awesome advice, I am not sure where that post was originally posted, but it is up there now, thanks =D

 

[LuCKy]

cool this helps a lot thanks a lot binx wobbles and the other ic players that gave tips for this thing

 

[AzN_Lep]

Hmmm... I'll go ahead and try to list a character match-up chart, numbered 1-10. 10 being the most difficult and 1 being the easiest.

Peach ---------------- 10.0 [Hardest]
Samus ----------------- 9.2
Luigi ------------------- 9.0
Marth ----------------- 8.5 [Hard]
Ganon ----------------- 8.2
Zelda ------------------ 7.2 [Unfavorable]
Jiggs ------------------- 6.6
G&W ------------------- 6.2
Doc -------------------- 5.9 [Slight Disadvantage]
Fox --------------------- 5.1
IC ---------------------- 5.0 [Even]
Sheik ------------------ 4.4 [Slight Edge]
Mario ------------------ 4.3
Falco ------------------- 4.2
Y. Link ------------------ 4.0
Yoshi ------------------- 3.8 [Favorable]
Ness -------------------- 3.7
Link -------------------- 3.6
Pikachu ---------------- 3.5
C. Falcon --------------- 3.3
DK ---------------------- 3.0 [Easy]
Roy -------------------- 2.8
Kirby ------------------- 2.3
Mewtwo --------------- 1.8
Bowser ---------------- 1.5 [Cake]
Pichu ------------------ 1.0

This is just my personal experience, open to critique and explanations if needed. I'll make a finalized version as a jpeg if you guys want. Feel free to agree or disagree.

 

[Nintendude]

I personally don't think that ICs have the edge in the Falco matchup. I think at most it's dead even, but then again I've always had trouble with Falcos no matter what character I'm using. It just seems like you have to stay near Falco or else he starts sitting there spamming, and if you get near him he will just start swarming you and you get locked into your shield without any good means of escaping unharmed. He also seems to outprioritize everything you throw at him and a smart Falco isn't really gonna get grabbed unless he times the shine wrong after an aerial. Also the whole grab = death doesn't really apply as well when the Falco you are facing is consistent at Smash DIing out of the chaingrab.

 

[AzN_Lep]

d-throw f-smash kills around 40% if they're smash DI'ing away, especially with Falco's substandard recovery. If the Falco can (and does) smash DI every time, it's not gonna be too hard to take advantage of the moment.

I'm gonna assume your problem is the Falco l-cancels into shine perfectly nearly everytime, making it virtually impossible to grab, and then comes with another l-cancel'd d-air to shine against your shield. Although this seems scary, all you really have to do is break down his options. After he shines what can Falco do.

a) jump out of shield, almost always straight up to attack again.
b) wavedashes outta shine. or
c) sit there like an idiot in his shine.

k, neat that's not that many options. More often than not they go with option 'a'. Instead of focusing on the grab, focus on your follow up. He's gonna jump out of his shine, so punish accordingly. Follow Falco with u-air to b-air, or 2 u-airs. Maybe even an u-tilt if he short hops. In the event that he wavedashes to the other side of you, let's face it, Falco isn't gonna waveshine forever. Eventually he's gonna jump, just wait for that moment and u-air. Always keep in mind, your u-air beats his d-air. At a distance throw some iceblocks, he's gonna have to either get hit or maneuver, either which stops his lasers for a moment.

At low percents, if the Falco is gonna smash DI your throws (which makes sense) go for d-throw u-smash chain. It'll only work once or twice, but if he's gonna keep smash DI'ing, that's all you'll need before you can finish him off.

Basically just stay cool in this match. Believe it or not, most Falcos are frantically trying to put pressure on you so you can't respond. They're actually under waaaay more stress than we are. Just sit back and think about the situation, then act accordingly. Normally this match would be heavily in IC favor, except if you do get hit, you're taking 40%+ at a time.

 

[Binx]

I would say peach Marth Fox, I dont see any way to really beat a technical fox, I played silent wolf yesterday and if I get hit with one shine Nana was dead and alone I was too slow to do much, he just laser spammed and spotted for grabs, really really tough match up IMO. Falco is at least managable because he is so much slower, but Fox, wow.

Also I have more trouble with Marth than Luigi but probably because of player skill.

 

[Smasher89]

I would say Ice Climbers have a advantage over Falco. Both that the double shield might make the player mess up and the fact that almost every hit will **** him, a dsmash that hits can actually KO quite fast sometimes, just let him come to you and play smart and play tricky (might be useful with fast WD's and is useful with WD at place for mindgames)

Ice Climbers have advantage over Falco on his possibly best stage, and he cannot lasercamp you since iceblock>blaster when it comes to camping, play with mindgames.
A little bit of desynch might be used and every stock should not need more than 2-3 grabs at most, often just one. Don't spam grabs, alternate with good spaced dsmashes and grab once in a while...

 

[Nintendude]

Thanks for the advice, Azn_Lep, but I still seem to get gridlocked by Falco so much. What do you do against a Falco who's smart with his offense? A Falco that doesn't bother to full jump his aerials doesn't seem to ever be vulnerable, especially when he runs away when he lost his lock on your shield. I've heard over and over, and know for myself, that patience is key in Smash, but I have a hard time understanding how to be patient vs. Falco. It seems to be something like pretending to put pressure on him so he tries to attack your shield and eventually screws up somewhere, because if you get too far away from you he just sits there and spams. The problem is that it just seems like putting yourself into a bad position, as any approach attempt gets killed by a laser or outprioritized.

I also noticed that I tend to get lasered when attempting to wavedash out of the shield while near Falco, and the Falco can capitalize on that since he's close by.

As for the grabs, yeah I know about mixing up smashes with chaingrab attempts and it works really well. Some Falcos are good at reading your intent though. Still, it's a good way around the Smash DI problem.

I'm also just horribly inconsistent in the matchup. It's like if I break his rhythm and get on a roll I can demolish the stock, but it's just getting to that point that's the problem. I've beaten Falcos like Reik, Eggm, and Ky yet I sometimes lose to random technical Falcos.

 

[LuCKy]

d-throw f-smash kills around 40% if they're smash DI'ing away, especially with Falco's substandard recovery. If the Falco can (and does) smash DI every time, it's not gonna be too hard to take advantage of the moment.

I'm gonna assume your problem is the Falco l-cancels into shine perfectly nearly everytime, making it virtually impossible to grab, and then comes with another l-cancel'd d-air to shine against your shield. Although this seems scary, all you really have to do is break down his options. After he shines what can Falco do.

a) jump out of shield, almost always straight up to attack again.
b) wavedashes outta shine. or
c) sit there like an idiot in his shine.

k, neat that's not that many options. More often than not they go with option 'a'. Instead of focusing on the grab, focus on your follow up. He's gonna jump out of his shine, so punish accordingly. Follow Falco with u-air to b-air, or 2 u-airs. Maybe even an u-tilt if he short hops. In the event that he wavedashes to the other side of you, let's face it, Falco isn't gonna waveshine forever. Eventually he's gonna jump, just wait for that moment and u-air. Always keep in mind, your u-air beats his d-air. At a distance throw some iceblocks, he's gonna have to either get hit or maneuver, either which stops his lasers for a moment.

At low percents, if the Falco is gonna smash DI your throws (which makes sense) go for d-throw u-smash chain. It'll only work once or twice, but if he's gonna keep smash DI'ing, that's all you'll need before you can finish him off.

Basically just stay cool in this match. Believe it or not, most Falcos are frantically trying to put pressure on you so you can't respond. They're actually under waaaay more stress than we are. Just sit back and think about the situation, then act accordingly. Normally this match would be heavily in IC favor, except if you do get hit, you're taking 40%+ at a time.

pat's too good cant wait to start using my ic's again but hmm is marth vs ic's really that bad? i was hoping to use ic's on marth......hmm guess ill have to try it out for my self

 

[Binx]

nintendude, if you think the falco will short hop a drill upsmash out of your shield. Basically it goes like this when a falco does a short hop drill shine he has 2 options, he can jump fastfall and drill and shine, before the drill there are 7 frames of vulnerability, this is where you can hit him with an upsmash, this is also the most common pillar. The second one is where he does a rising drill and then fast falls there are 7 frames before the shine where he can be grabbed because he hits your shield higher up.

@ Lucky - If Marth does a fair while DIing towards you you can sometimes shield grab and do a lot of percent 40-50 if they space their fair properly there doesnt seem to be anything you can do, short hop fair double jump retreating fair is all but impossible to punish it seems, also he can mix up his attack so many ways.

Marth is also EXTREMELY GOOD at edgeguarding the ice climbers, if you are above the stage with both ICs you have a shot at make it back but its hopeless if you are alone. Also the difficulty Marth typically has finishing off characters at higher percents is negated in this matchup, basically after 120% he can repeatedly forward b until you are force to jump then bair or fair you off the stage where you have no choice but to forward b or airdodge and get faired baired or fsmashed back out to your doom.

Marth is also very difficult to edgeguard because he can sweetspot so well and his u-b hits you if you try to crowd the ledge.

This match is really hard, against worse Marths they mispace a fair and you do a 50 damage combo and it evens out the advantage Marth has in edgeguarding, but if the Marth is good its all but hopeless.

 

[Nintendude]

nintendude, if you think the falco will short hop a drill upsmash out of your shield. Basically it goes like this when a falco does a short hop drill shine he has 2 options, he can jump fastfall and drill and shine, before the drill there are 7 frames of vulnerability, this is where you can hit him with an upsmash, this is also the most common pillar. The second one is where he does a rising drill and then fast falls there are 7 frames before the shine where he can be grabbed because he hits your shield higher up.

I don't really get how up-smash, a move that comes out in 14 frames, can outspeed Falco's 7 frames of vulnerability. There's also frames of shield hit-stun where you can't move so it's even worse. I've never seen it used by anyone and don't buy it, but I'll give it a shot anyway since trying it can't hurt.

Also, I'm pretty sure that a technically sound Falco won't be grabbable while pillaring no matter what.