Guide Ice Climber Match Up Guide

[kobefox2485]

still, the ice climbers have a really bad recovery. so if they are hit off the stage even at low percentage they are dead...

 

[choknater]

not quite. because of the duration of their recovery moves, the best you can do is try to fake the opponent out by using misleading directions and confusing DI.

it takes a VERY patient player to edgeguard the ic's. they are heavier than most woult think and they have super long distance recoveries. they might be easy to edgeguard, but one mistake in an edgeguard could mean a live popo, who is pretty darn fast.

like i always say, it is a great testament to the ic player's skill if he has a strong recovery and a skilled solo popo.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

hey whenever you guys wanna do the Ness section let me know and I'll help out

 

[Speedsk8er]

hey whenever you guys wanna do the Ness section let me know and I'll help out

Protip: PK Fire ***** Nana. D:

 

[Binx]

Well according to Wobbles, and I would have to agree the biggest problem with Ness is that you are too busy laughing to effectively fight him. So if you can keep from doing that you shouldn't have a lot of problems XD
honestly though I guess I should play Tudios' ness the next chance I get and see if I can get some tips, I guess this could use an update vs the rest of the cast, if people want to submit some more I promise I'll check every so often and try to add the other match ups.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

its easy if you dont get hit

 

[Wobbles]

I thought I'd just share this as advice for the Falco matchup...

IC's are one of the few characters who can approach through Falco's lasers, for the simple reason that there are two of them. If you wavedash and input a command, you can get free hits while the Falco is landing from his laser.

Here's an example: wavedash towards the Falco into a f-smash. The first laser will hit you, while Nana moves towards Falco still executing the f-smash. You can do this with a grab as well if you're pretty close. You may even be able to execute a dash attack and follow up with a grab. I've been using it against laser spammers and it's worked magnificently.

 

[Binx]

Added Falco advice, thanks wobbles, I also use this vs Peach if she is throwing lots of turnips and versus Marios.

 

[Binx]

We need a melee climbers vs the entire brawl game match up, I say that someone just brings a cube and TV to EVERY brawl tournament and only plays melee until everyone sees how much better the game is again.

 

[Kyu Puff]

An IC player back from the dead! That's 2 in 2 days (you and Phen). :D

If only Wobbles became active again, afaik, he still plays Melee.

Bring this thread back; it was helpful. I can contribute somewhat if you started updating it again (although, nobody really reads these forums anymore).

 

[Vts]

well i guess i'll try to do the match up for mewtwo

Things to watch out for.

-Mewtwo's Nair breaks up the climbers 90% of the time. The range is short so space well so you don't get sucked up in it.
-bair/uair both have longer range than your hammer so when your both in the air best to avoid him unless your under mewtwo.
-platforms are unfriendly to u. Mewtwo's up smash and up tilt have long range, the up smash has a larger hit box for the last hit.
-Mewtwo's grabs are great killers and desync the ic's to well avoid getting grabbed 90%+
- Mewtwo's blast can be annoying since if its not a charged one it will fly over your ice blocks.

How to fight back. (I'm no expert but here is what i would do.)

-Don't nana-pult unless your sure he will be grabbed/smash.
-jumping ice blocks works great for keeping him from using his charge blast.
-approach with nair into grab or WD up tilt/ jabs/forward tilt/down tilt
-Mewtwo is very floaty so killing him off the top is easier than from the sides.
-up tilt to double uair works really well for damage and possible killing him on small roofs.
- gimp him as fast as u can your floaty also so you too can be gimped.

Things not to do (vs Iori lol)
-don't get grabbed.
-don't come in with a dair mewtwo can CC and punish you at low percents.
-up-b kills are very good ways to kill him but punishable by nana's or your death.
-don't ignore nana save her.
-stay away from the ledge as much as possible.
-avoid being above/beside mewtwo his aerials have longer range than you.
-blizzard doesn't stop a charged blast so don't try it.
- don't misjudge his up-b it has little lag and is very fast

all i got right now i'll try to post for other classes as much as i can.

 

[Binx]

Wobbles would be best to ask about Mew2 because he plays the best mew2 player in the country. But from looking at it, ICs are heavier, faster, have more range, power, and combo ability. But maybe I'm wrong.

 

[choknater]

Mewtwo has nothing on IC's

just one of those matchups (like mario... young link) where you can wd grab/wd fsmash rock paper scissors the whole game and just **** hard

 

[Binx]

Thanks chok, that was basically my thought but I've never played against a 'competitive' mew2 before so I figured I would leave my statement vague.

 

[Wobbles]

M2 huh.

Short hop f-air > d-tilt
Short hop blizzard > dash dance grab
Wavedash d-smash > roll
D-throw d-air > DI

Poor Mewtwo You need to be careful of n-air clipping through your shield and him grabbing you. B-throw and d-throw have crazy dead-weight hitboxes, so Nana can't punish if you get grabbed. Sometimes she ruins u-throw, sometimes she gets hit, sometimes she stands still and gapes.

But yeah, short hop f-air is the best thing to approach with. Also applies to Marths who d-tilt after f-air. Auto CC into d-smash or jab-grab. <3

 

[otg]

Any help on IC's vs. DK? I was always curious how they did vs. the jovial monkey.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Here is my take on AzN_Lep's chart.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

why is kirby so lower than bowser and shouldn,t ice climbers be be be top tier on this list like every list?

 

[Vts]

i do believe the list is how hard the match ups are for ic not the tier list of best in game lol.

but fox imo should be little higher the shine *****

 

[Jam Stunna]

Samus so high? That list looks really weird in general.

All the top tiers destroy ICs. Actually, pretty much all character destroy ICs. The fact that Chu, Wobbles and Azn place so high really is more of a testament to their individual abilities than the ICs as characters.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Fox, Peach, Marth, Samus are brutal.

Everyone else is much, much more manageable even if it's not in ICs' favour.

 

[Wobbles]

You could also write it as a win-loss matchup style. How many times a character is expected to win and lose versus ICs assuming equal play. This is probably what my list would look like.

ICs really don't have that many vicious matchups in their favor, and even their counters are disputable. Most really good players believe Sheik has the advantage against them, and low tiers have lots of little walls for keeping them out. What makes the ICs is their punishment game, so most of the time you're only as good as your opponent. You'll spend most of the match luring them into range, which means they must make errors for you to capitalize--it's really tough to create openings.

Peach - 9-1

Marth - 8-2
Samus - 8-2
Luigi - 8-2, maybe 7-3

Ganon - 7-3, maybe 6-4, there are some strats I want to try against Ganon that I haven't been able to. I think they'll work wonders.
Fox - 6-4
Jiggs - 6-4
Falcon 6-4
Falco - 6-4
Sheik - 6-4

Young Link - 5-5
Doc - 5-5
Mario - 5-5

Link - 4-6
GaW - 4-6
DK - 4-6
Zelda - 4-6
Roy - 4-6

Ness - 3-7
Pikachu - 3-7
Mewtwo - 3-7
Kirby - 3-7
Bowser - 3-7

Pichu - !-? (Uhh... I don't think anybody cares about this one, probably a 2-8 or 1-9)

 

[pockyD]

you probably need separate win-loss ratios for on FD vs. not FD -_-

 

[Wobbles]

I just assume my opponent will ban it, because they always always do

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

with pichu he needs to avoid all ICs smashs and grabs if he can do that then he will win period. I played as pichu vs IC me(pichu) I destroyed him n-air then throw nana back to up air combo sigh a thing about as amazing as IC I lose from smas spam and I killed myself twicemaybe he just sucked and pichu can't combo

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I actually like Corneria more than FD for a lot of match-ups.

 

[Binx]

I really like battlefield and Yoshi's with ICs BF because its very hard for many characters to sweetspot there helping to even out ICs terribad recovery.

And Yoshi's has the curved edges which make it very easy to do crazy long wavelands off the edge, giving you more space to work with after recovering, I also really like the closeness of the sides for some reason, although I get wrecked on this stage by Marth and Falcon.

My list of worse matchups would be

Peach (100% unwinnable)
Marth (100% unwinnable at similar skill levels but not as bad as peach because you can at least kill him twice or so)
Fox
Samus
Falco
Falcon
Sheik
Ganon

Then after that nothing is too uneven for me, I havn't had a ton of trouble with Luigi, I don't know why.

 

[Kyu Puff]

I don't mean to contradict you but

IC's recovery is pretty good.

And Yoshi's is amazing against Falcon and neutral against Marth. Falcon needs space to move around; basically what happens is he gets stuck trying to be aggressive, and it becomes really easy to outspace him and punish knees. ICs kill ridiculously low on that stage. (There is a stage discussion thread, nobody has really discussed counterpicks yet.)

The worst match-ups for me are

Peach (almost unwinnable)
Samus (same as peach, a little better if you wobble)
Marth (pretty bad but definitely winnable)
Luigi

Fox, Falco, Falcon, Sheik are all even-ish, some of them are even in IC favor.

My problem with Luigi is that he's like Jiggs but takes longer to kill. You have to play REALLY REALLY patient because aside from infinites you'll only be landing one or two hits at a time.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

I don't mean to contradict you but

The worst match-ups for me are

Peach (almost unwinnable)
Samus (same as peach, a little better if you wobble)
Marth (pretty bad but definitely winnable)
Luigi
yedi's ness

Fox, Falco, Falcon, Sheik are all even-ish, some of them are even in IC favor.

fix ed=D

 

[Binx]

Temporary shopping list


Top Tier:
Fox
Falco

High Tier:
Sheik
Marth
Peach

Middle Tier:
Captain Falcon
Ice Climbers
Samus
Doctor Mario
Jigglypuff
Mario
Ganondorf

Low Tier:
Link
Luigi
Donkey Kong
Roy
Young Link
Pikachu

Bottom Tier:
Yoshi
Zelda
Mr. Game and Watch
Ness
Bowser
Kirby
Pichu
Mewtwo]

Lets get the rest of this list crossed off. I'm gonna have plenty of freetime at home for about 2 weeks, we might as well get this done, if anyone wants to add to already existing characters that would be good too, people are probably finding ways around some of the ideas we have here and I would love to here more alternatives, more options = more winning.

EDIT: @ Kyu - Falcon's movement isn't very hindered on Yoshi or BF because the platforms don't hurt him as much, vs ICs anyways, smaller stages are worse for him vs Marth because then he has very little room to maneuver cause the sword takes up so much, but vs ICs and for the most part vs Fox he isn't at a disadvantage on those stages, however he is fairly disadvantaged on FoD because the moving platforms stop some of his short hopped aerials which is how he will wait to start most of his pressure game vs ICs. Also Knees kill at very low percents on Yoshi's.

For Marth he slaughters ICs on all stages at all times, Yoshi's is particularly bad because his utilt and fsmash at certain spacings take up almost the entire bottom platforms giving him several advantages not the least of which is very easy edgeguarding because unless you have both climbers syched and want to forward b to the top platform where you are still at a disadvantage because off full hopped uairs and double jumped nairs, but not you have basically NO recovery psych at all even on lower ledges.

 

[pockyD]

IC dittos

 

[Binx]

I guess so, we do need those, I always just wavedash fsmash edgeguard nana, then chain throw popo, anyone else do it different?

I've never played against a good climber though.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I just bthrow and jab -> dsmash a lot in ICs dittos. This has worked well the two times I've ever ditto'd good ICs, lol.

 

[Binx]

Ice Climbers

Watch out for:

• Smashes, these little guys have quick powerful smashes that do good damage, especially if they both hit you
• Try and stay in front of and below Ice Climbers, their Uair out prioritizes everything you have from directly below you.
• Your own Nana, keep her alive if at all possible, once its 2 vs 1 it's over son.
  

Don't:

• Let Nana die
• Try and grab unless Nana is far behind popo
• Try to grab Nana at all
• Don't miss with fairs the Ice Climbers can wavedash and take advantage during the lag with a smash or in some cases a deadly grab

Do:

• Approach with wavedash Dsmash, but be wary of forward smashes if they predict you
• Punish hard with grabs once their second climber is dead
• Space with Bairs and Blizzards
• Gimp Nana

Tips:

From Binx

In general stay below Ice Climbers, be prepared to crouch cancel jabs and dairs into your own smashes. Expect most Ice Climbers to wavedash into smash attacks, if you predict these you can forward smash them out of these, if they fake you out by dash dancing or something first though you will eat a smash yourself during your recovery lag. Wavedash forward tilt can be an effective weapon in this match up

Make sure to gimp Nana as often and brutally as possible to open up chain throws vs solo popo as well as cut your opponents recovery options and damage output in half.

Obviously this advice goes both ways, try not to let any of this happen to you ^_^
​

 

[Kyu Puff]

vs. ICs (the Popos + Nanas might be confusing)

Your grab game is devastating if you manage to grab the other Popo. Nana automatically throws away whoever she grabs, leaving the other IC at your disposal. If you wobble Popo, Nana will simply run repeatedly into your headbutt or f-tilt.

Otherwise, blizzard and smash once Nana comes. D-throw u-smash, or u-throw f-smash, to send Popo away and buy time to kill Nana (a smash knocks her far enough offstage that she usually can't recover). Alternatively, charge a smash and wait until Nana approaches.

F-air is a good counter to wd d-smash approaches (what most IC players will use).

 

[Binx]

If nana is hit by a tilt the hit stun throws off the wobble, Ice Climbers cannot be wobbled when there are two of them, as far as the grabbing popo being devistating, thats true and I'll go ahead and add it to the character, I'm pretty sure most people will understand when I say nana I mean the second climber, if you are knowledgable enough to know that Popo and Nana can be switched depending on costume you'll be smart enough to figure out who I'm talking about as well.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Thanks for clarifying that, someone showed it to me and I assumed it would work.

Please don't exclude the tip about f-air, it works for me and people should at least try it out for themselves. Many players are predictable in IC dittos; d-smash is obviously one of the key moves, and f-air is decent as far as countering d-smash.

Also... I beat Cort in IC dittos... in tournament... LOL (I hope he doesn't see this >_>)

 

[Binx]

LOL, okay.

the reason I left it out was because wavedash fsmash ***** it and I usually use that instead of dsmash because a lot of people try to jump over my dsmash. I'll put it in though as a counter to dsmash.

 

[Wobbles]

After a tourney this weekend, I'm starting to rethink the Peach ICs matchup a bit. It's definitely winnable, you just need to be... really creative. I got to play 15 tournament rounds against Xelic, TX's #1 Peach--arguably one of the top 3 Peaches in the country--and barely lost out against him.

First set was 3-2 for me, all IC-Peach victories.
Second set was 2-3 in his favor, again with IC victories.
Third set, same.

I was very angry and threw my controller after letting 1st place get away from me, but in retrospect I did a **** good job against him. This tournament gave me my first victorious set and I learned a lot of useful stuff about fighting Peach. I also nearly beat him with ICs on Brinstar (I played too aggressively :/ ) and actually maintained an advantage for most of our matches.

1) Catch turnips. They completely change the dynamic of Peach's approach against you. If you have them you can just use them to screw up Peach's float and make her land awkwardly, or hand it off to Nana (jump in the air and hit Z to hand it off) for a wavedashing approach. It also makes it easier to stop her turnip approaches if you can catch them consistently.

2) Twin Squall. When she starts hovering at the sweet-spot height -- just above your up-tilts and smashes, but low enough that her aerials will hit you before you can use your own -- move around a bit. Before she can hit you with an aerial.

3) Light shield. Oh God light shield.

4) Master--COMPLETELY MASTER--the ledge-chaingrab in case wobbling is banned. I was able to get completely perfect 0-death chaingrabs on Xelic with it at least once per match. Peaches like to stay near the edges of the level, so this will happen more often than with other characters. I also think she's the easiest to do this against. On that note, you'll also want to practice up-throw up-smash, since maxing out the edge-chaingrab renders d-throw up-smash unusable. The ledge-chaingrab can also be done on platforms, so if you somehow get a tech-chase onto one, use it there too. It will impress Nana.

5) When she lands on the top platforms, your u-air and f-airs are completely safe pokes. For Yoshi's and FoD, poke with full jump u-air. For Battlefield and Dreamland, use full jump u-air. She is unable to hit you with d-smash if you do this. On Yoshi's and FoD, your u-smash also has a good chance to beat/clink with her d-smash on the smaller platforms. Don't jump into her, just smash at her. If it's a clink, you're no worse off.

6) Her jab may be her most difficult to beat attack. It's too fast to punish on whiff and she'd have to be dumb as hell to let you walk up and f-smash her through it. Fortunately, there's a very useful de-sync for setting up Nana's blizzard, which will give you the chance to storm in with a grab, f-air, or smash.

7) Bait using de-synced charge smashes. Charge u-smashes and f-smashes with Nana and you can encourage Peach to attack with a foolish aerial in an attempt to punish, letting you intercept with n-air and u-air; she also may just float away complacently and not notice you leaping in with aerials. This trick works against a lot of people, actually.

8) Watch for turnip pulls. If you can get at a certain distance and predict when the pull will happen, you can punish with a grab. That right there should be a whole stock, since Peaches like to stay at the edge to pull turnips. See # 4

9) On the subject of turnips, you can wavedash d-smash through turnips; you will get hit but Nana will go through. When you're close to Peach and she's holding a turnip she may try to stop you, and wavedashing into the smash will often connect and knock her away while she doesn't DI.

10) Don't use your jab. She'll crouch cancel it. Every time. At later percents (probably 90+) you can f-tilt and her CCs will slam her into the ground. She might even slip off the level and d-air while she falls, giving you a good edge-guard setup. In fact... I just had a crazy idea for an edgeguard against her, but I won't share it until I can confirm it isn't completely ****ing stupid.

10a) You are allowed to jab her when she's holding a turnip. Just be careful that she doesn't throw it and force you to catch it, letting her CC d-smash anyhow.

10b) Your best aerial for preventing CC d-smash is f-air. Once she gets past around 20 percent (assuming you still have Nana with you), CC'ing it will ground her.

11) Go crazy when edgeguarding her. If she's floating low and keeping you from edgehogging, just leap off the level with a fast-falling forward-air. If you spike her, her vertical sucks and gets her killed. If you don't, she'll eat some extra damage and you can still recover with twin-squall hammer.

12) Her b-air is a very spammable move, but she has nothing that can go completely through your blizzard. De-sync lots of blizzards and it will keep her *** out of your face. Jumping blizzard helps you do a bit of extra damage but it's riskier; if she's DI'ing up she can come over your head.

The last thing you have to really remember: Peach is effing hard to punish. A lot of her moves have deceptively low ending lag which gives the illusion they can't be punished. Excluding her jab--which I think IS unpunishable unless she jabs deep into your shield, though that's really stupid--everything can be punished with something. What you want to do is FAKE your punishes. Dash in and sit outside her range, let her dodge or whiff a d-smash, then punish that instead.

This matchup is still stupidly hard since she can camp you like crazy. Your best bet if she's platform camping is to force her to the sides and try to get her really high where your u-airs and squalls can start reaching her.

That's all I have for now. I want to play this matchup more and more until I can beat every Peach in the country Hell, why stop there? Every last god**** Peach in the world.

Edit:

Also, against Jiggs with SoPo, b-throw f-air is a really useful combo at mid-percents. I learned that awhile ago and just remembered to share.

 

[Binx]

Added those sexy peach tips, also I've been really bored today and I've been re-reading some of my older posts, I'm pretty convinced that I'm ******** XD My grammar and spelling is TERRIBLE