• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

I wish Smash fans would care more about how the game plays and less about the characters in the game

Quillion

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
5,702
Topic says it all.

I know that some competitive players focus on how the game plays, but even they are moving on to other platform fighters, so even that crowd is diminishing.

Even then, as someone who has bounced off of competitive, I just find Smash rather stagnant gameplay-wise at this point, but without a crowd begging for a big gameplay change (as has happened/is hapenning with franchises like Mario, Pokémon, Zelda, Assassin's Creed, or Resident Evil), I really don't see Smash breaking out of its stagnation.
 

ThiagoCavalcanteCarvalho

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 30, 2018
Messages
82
We need a better game, not more characters
The game ends up heading in the direction of those generic Mugen amateurs

for example, let's discuss Revamps and gameplay changes

Final Smash included in battles without being able to remove it from the game

Counter becomes something that all characters can do if you attack after a combo breaker defending at the right time, including in the air, with certain characters having an easier combo breaker, a stronger counter or with more options...

An incentive for championships with Spirits even if this has rules to limit the use of certain cards for certain characters
 

Quillion

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
5,702
for example, let's discuss Revamps and gameplay changes
If we need Revamps, they should do it like Omega Mode in Ultra Street Fighter 4 or EX forms in some King of Fighters games. Give some characters new tools to play with as an option, but keep the old moveset intact.

Final Smash included in battles without being able to remove it from the game
Not with the wide variance in how FS works now.

But I'm still advocating for a more "balanced" form of supers. Pretty much how it's done here actually. And I still think FS would still work on top of that as its own thing.

Counter becomes something that all characters can do if you attack after a combo breaker defending at the right time, including in the air, with certain characters having an easier combo breaker, a stronger counter or with more options...
I have been mulling about the idea of replacing spotdodge with a universal counter actually.

An incentive for championships with Spirits even if this has rules to limit the use of certain cards for certain characters
It could work as an extension of For Fun from Smash 4 if anything. Not so much for a ranked mode.
 

KneeOfJustice99

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 29, 2018
Messages
2,133
Location
the building from smash mouth's astro lounge
Honestly, I'm inclined to agree. Part of the reason I personally think the idea of a Smash reboot is so appealing is because it really gives a great opportunity to meaningfully develop the game's mechanics - which, if you think about it, haven't changed all that much since Melee (albeit with the exception of a couple of minor tweaks here and there, and the addition of more character-specific gimmicks) - but also the opportunity to retool a lot of other things as needed, whether it be small-scale nitty-gritty elements like tweaking dodging mechanics, non-gameplay stuff like reworking how alts/model swaps work, etc.

While there's a lot of ways to handle changes and a lot of ideas for what they should be, I think the main thing is to hone in on what identity the Smash series should have going forward. A better sense of identity in terms of gameplay, mechanics, marketing and overall design would significantly help in a lot of areas.
 
Last edited:

MasterCheef

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 7, 2021
Messages
672
new mode = Tag Team , = can swap between 2 characters

Mini Games

8 Pool
7 Mini-Golf
6 Hot Potato
5 Volleyball
4 Maze Race w/ Portals
3 Obstacle races
2 Basketball & invincible characters
1 Soccer & invincible characters

WHY ? , attracting casuals , otherwise overwhelmed by regular game-play

Get their own buttons = Grab , & , Final Smash

Extra power Special meter = charges via ; dealing ( damage & knockback )

The Special moves get fixed so ;

Side special can be used in all 3 ( advantage , neutral & disadvantage )
Up special can be used in 2 ( advantage , & , disadvantage )
Neutral special cab be used in 2 ( advantage & neutral )
Down special is to be used in advantage
 

Quillion

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
5,702
new mode = Tag Team , = can swap between 2 characters
So Squad Strike with a swap feature.

Mini Games

8 Pool
7 Mini-Golf
6 Hot Potato
5 Volleyball
4 Maze Race w/ Portals
3 Obstacle races
2 Basketball & invincible characters
1 Soccer & invincible characters
These sound nice.

Get their own buttons = Grab , & , Final Smash
Grab already has its own button.

FS, again, is fine replacing neutral-B. If we need a super with its own button, they should make it a separate thing.

Extra power Special meter = charges via ; dealing ( damage & knockback )
Yes, supers should be powered by this meter and kept separate from FS.

Up special can be used in 2 ( advantage , & , disadvantage )
I wouldn't mind if they remove helpless across the board so that "recovery" attacks can be used as actual attacks.
 

MasterCheef

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 7, 2021
Messages
672
Grab already has its own button.

Quillion Quillion , this is true, in a barely technical sense.

However , if you look at how it is performed it is ( Shield + attack ).

Therefore what i want is for the move to NOT require ( Shield + attack ) , & be it own separate move / button
 

Quillion

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
5,702
Quillion Quillion , this is true, in a barely technical sense.

However , if you look at how it is performed it is ( Shield + attack ).

Therefore what i want is for the move to NOT require ( Shield + attack ) , & be it own separate move / button
The reason why it's this way is because shield grabbing is the basic method of acting out of shield.

If you make it so that shield isn't "required", what changes?
 

Quillion

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
5,702
I won't have any possibility of doing a move i don't plan on.
On one hand, I'd like more out-of-shield variety.

On the other, doing any move out of shield will just make shields overpowering.

I think it would be more reasonable to make throws more "standard" with forward and back throws being keepaway oriented while up and down throws are combo oriented. Then layer throws with a super mechanic so we have "super throws", which can kill but consume meter.
 

MasterCheef

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 7, 2021
Messages
672
So Squad Strike with a swap feature.
Not really because while it would be only 1 character active per ( player / cpu ) , they can swap between 1 other character , however you can have more than 1 stock per duo
 

Quillion

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
5,702
Not really because while it would be only 1 character active per ( player / cpu ) , they can swap between 1 other character , however you can have more than 1 stock per duo
So Squad Strike with a swap feature and the ability to have duplicates.
 

Quillion

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
5,702
Well, while we’re here talking about gameplay, one tinyimprovement I’d like to see the team make is to reduce the endlag on air dodges.
Honestly, I just want to see aerial defense reworked entirely.

Instead of air dodging, which induces a waiting game, they should have air shielding and grabbing instead.
 

Oracle Link

Smash Master
Joined
Oct 9, 2020
Messages
3,536
Location
Germany
I mean i still think characters are important! And i think the fabled 3d Smash would probably be worse!
But still how about Playable bosses and unfair smash modes i so badly wanna fight metal big dedede as kirby!
 

Quillion

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
5,702
Honestly sometimes it genuinely feels like "the gameplay is my favorite part of smash" is an unpopular opinion somehow
I mean i still think characters are important! And i think the fabled 3d Smash would probably be worse!
But still how about Playable bosses and unfair smash modes i so badly wanna fight metal big dedede as kirby!
When it comes to the gaming community as a whole, I admittedly think that "gameplay enjoyers" are just as self-righteous and narrow-minded than "graphics enjoyers".

But it's still rather baffling that a crossover focused on one of the most gameplay-first game companies out there has a fandom rather unfocused on the gameplay.

As for Oracle Link Oracle Link , 3D Smash could work as it's an explicitly designated spin-off.

spot dodge is fine , it's the special moves which are very boring
I would not want special moves to run off meter like you say though. Just have regular specials and "super specials" with only the latter running off meter.
 

Oddball

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 1, 2016
Messages
1,726
Well, let's face it, saying "Dante would be great in the next Smash Bros," stirs the imaginations lot more than "Wouldn't it be great if this character had less lag and a slightly higher jump?"
 

MasterCheef

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 7, 2021
Messages
672
I would not want special moves to run off meter like you say though. Just have regular specials and "super specials" with only the latter running off meter.
.

I described what you would call ( Super specials ). I would just call them ( ultra specials ). Super Specials does not make sense since Super is in the game title & would have been not present for 5 games
.

At times it feels like that perspective is not just unpopular, but outright stigmatised
.
.
I agree
 

Oracle Link

Smash Master
Joined
Oct 9, 2020
Messages
3,536
Location
Germany
When it comes to the gaming community as a whole, I admittedly think that "gameplay enjoyers" are just as self-righteous and narrow-minded than "graphics enjoyers".

But it's still rather baffling that a crossover focused on one of the most gameplay-first game companies out there has a fandom rather unfocused on the gameplay.

As for Oracle Link Oracle Link , 3D Smash could work as it's an explicitly designated spin-off.



I would not want special moves to run off meter like you say though. Just have regular specials and "super specials" with only the latter running off meter.
Yeah as a spinoff i would be fine with it!
 

Guynamednelson

Smash Legend
Joined
Dec 17, 2014
Messages
12,273
NNID
Nelson340
3DS FC
2105-8742-2099
Switch FC
SW 4265 6024 9719
Well, let's face it, saying "Dante would be great in the next Smash Bros," stirs the imaginations lot more than "Wouldn't it be great if this character had less lag and a slightly higher jump?"
To be fair most of the people ITT who agree with OP, plus OP, aren't exactly as gameplay-focused as they're trying to claim. If they were, they wouldn't be telling people to stop wanting character X and start wanting character Y for reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with gameplay.
 

Quillion

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
5,702
Well, let's face it, saying "Dante would be great in the next Smash Bros," stirs the imaginations lot more than "Wouldn't it be great if this character had less lag and a slightly higher jump?"
Like I said on a profile status, it admittedly tends to infect a lot of crossover works. Like say Xenoblade Warriors; a game that as of yet only exists hypothetically, yet practically no one wants to discuss how such a game would translate the signature Xenoblade mechanics of Arts, Chain Attacks, and Topple Combos to the Dynasty Warriors environment.

And for Smash, I get it; I was part of it for years. I'm just extremely burned out on that discourse after all that time.

At times it feels like that perspective is not just unpopular, but outright stigmatised
It seems that caring about how the game plays tends to label you as a competitive tryhard who can't move past Melee.

And as someone completely uninvolved with competitive, I have the opinion that many competitive players are just as stagnant-minded as casual players when it comes to Smash.

To be fair most of the people ITT who agree with OP, plus OP, aren't exactly as gameplay-focused as they're trying to claim. If they were, they wouldn't be telling people to stop wanting character X and start wanting character Y for reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with gameplay.
Look, I'm NOT saying we shouldn't care about what characters are in the game.

I'm saying we should care about them LESS. Still leave room to care about them, but make the gameplay more of a priority.
 

TheZizz

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 30, 2007
Messages
306
Location
SoCal
Remember when tourneys would go to sudden death and the crowd would chant "PLAY IT OUT!" Pepperidge farms remembers.

If you intend to stick to smash, I have some suggestions: Stop avoiding Northern Cave like the plague...try the more exotic stages and see what character-specific tactics they facilitate...if your opponent can't help but sweat and run the clock then throw some items in there and see what avails them to concede ground endlessly! Rediscover what made you love smash in its unadulterated form.

Don't take it personally if someone wants to throw hands in a "non serious" format...stop alienating the greater community of basic brawl/for fun enjoyers with this either/or drek...play it out muchachos.

Except be sure to ban Mario Bros. That stage is asss

Game on.
 

Quillion

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
5,702
Remember when tourneys would go to sudden death and the crowd would chant "PLAY IT OUT!" Pepperidge farms remembers.

If you intend to stick to smash, I have some suggestions: Stop avoiding Northern Cave like the plague...try the more exotic stages and see what character-specific tactics they facilitate...if your opponent can't help but sweat and run the clock then throw some items in there and see what avails them to concede ground endlessly! Rediscover what made you love smash in its unadulterated form.

Don't take it personally if someone wants to throw hands in a "non serious" format...stop alienating the greater community of basic brawl/for fun enjoyers with this either/or drek...play it out muchachos.

Except be sure to ban Mario Bros. That stage is asss

Game on.
That's like saying if you're playing Pokémon, ignoring things like EVs, IVs, natures, and stats and going for "the Pokémon you like" automagically alleviates any complaints people have of that series.
 

TheZizz

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 30, 2007
Messages
306
Location
SoCal
That's like saying if you're playing Pokémon, ignoring things like EVs, IVs, natures, and stats and going for "the Pokémon you like" automagically alleviates any complaints people have of that series.
I like complaining about things that I have no power to change firsthand, it's one of my favorite pastimes. And smash is certainly ripe for refinement.

I like that shields finally got nerfed in ultimate. I always thought that the strongest smash attacks in the game should not be unsafe on shield, but rather result in a neutral reset. It's like when Bowser's down-b in melee could be blocked & punished without a second thought...I mean why bother doing an evasive maneuver when holding R is equally effective, or moreso (as if dodging that wasn't a trivial enough matter). It makes for a very poor risk/reward dynamic, and an already nearly useless impractical move (in 1v1) becomes doubly so.

Speaking of which, with regard to possible future installments, it would be nice to have fewer dead weight specials in general (for 1v1). Though the appeal of successfully landing one of these "useless" moves to thunderous applause is not lost on me.

I'm also noting a lack of reliable countermeasures against opponents beneath you. With things like Cloud's down-air being notable exceptions. Overall there's little to no incentive to be anywhere but at the ground level, under normal circumstances. Platforms are not a pleasant place to be except to serve combos, frame traps, keeping pressure etc. My data may be off but it's always been my instinct to drop to the ground at the word GO! Though it's not necessarily an issue for a game to essentially have an "inverted high ground advantage."

I think directional air dodge could stand to be more lenient with the end lag. On the contrary, removing it entirely (with no replacement) would bring aerials to the forefront as your midair defense. Forcing players to clash aerials and see which prevails like in smash 64, is a prime example of addition by subtraction, imo. (With air dodge, why bother tabulating everyone's aerials against one another?) Though this concept would likely benefit swordies disproportionately...perhaps pairing disjointed hitboxes with subpar recovery as a general rule, would alleviate this.

And don't get me started on ledges. Yes it's far & away superior gameplay to fighting on walk-off stages. Yes ledge Trump and regrab are fine adjustments. I'm...not sure where I'm going with this.... Other than that it all seems to amount to a highly elaborate round of rock-paper-scissors...which is fine? It's serviceable, albeit a rather polarizing way to balance fighters.

But anyway, I'd be game for a fresh take with sweeping moveset overhauls + fewer characters. However I do think it's nice to see the variety in top tier representation that we see (saw?) in smash 4/ultimate compared to previous games, that is only realistically possible with an iterative design approach. Clearly the massive amounts of data on melee/brawl to be found here didn't go unnoticed.
 

Quillion

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
5,702
I like that shields finally got nerfed in ultimate. I always thought that the strongest smash attacks in the game should not be unsafe on shield, but rather result in a neutral reset. It's like when Bowser's down-b in melee could be blocked & punished without a second thought...I mean why bother doing an evasive maneuver when holding R is equally effective, or moreso (as if dodging that wasn't a trivial enough matter). It makes for a very poor risk/reward dynamic, and an already nearly useless impractical move (in 1v1) becomes doubly so.
I think the problem with Smash's risk/reward dynamic (arguably going even back to the beginning) is that it only accounts for kills and not combos. The way it's going, they're trying to make the kill moves high-risk, high-reward, but they neglect to apply that same principle for the combo starters, which makes the latter very imbalanced in terms of risk/reward.

If they need to keep Smash slow, it'd actually be perfect for what I have in mind: make combo starters laggy, but really up the base hitstun on them.

Speaking of which, with regard to possible future installments, it would be nice to have fewer dead weight specials in general (for 1v1). Though the appeal of successfully landing one of these "useless" moves to thunderous applause is not lost on me.
That's why I'd love to see Falcon Punch and Warlock Punch get "weak" variants if you just tap B instead of holding it down. Falcon Punch could be a recovery and combo starter, and Warlock Punch becomes a reflector to reference the Dead Man's Volley tactic.

I'm also noting a lack of reliable countermeasures against opponents beneath you. With things like Cloud's down-air being notable exceptions. Overall there's little to no incentive to be anywhere but at the ground level, under normal circumstances. Platforms are not a pleasant place to be except to serve combos, frame traps, keeping pressure etc. My data may be off but it's always been my instinct to drop to the ground at the word GO! Though it's not necessarily an issue for a game to essentially have an "inverted high ground advantage."
I think it's good that being above an opponent is a disadvantage. It would strengthen counterplay against strings too much if there were measures against opponents beneath.

I think directional air dodge could stand to be more lenient with the end lag. On the contrary, removing it entirely (with no replacement) would bring aerials to the forefront as your midair defense. Forcing players to clash aerials and see which prevails like in smash 64, is a prime example of addition by subtraction, imo. (With air dodge, why bother tabulating everyone's aerials against one another?) Though this concept would likely benefit swordies disproportionately...perhaps pairing disjointed hitboxes with subpar recovery as a general rule, would alleviate this.
I'm still thinking that air shielding and grabbing would be a better replacement for air dodging considering how much the latter implements a waiting game.

And don't get me started on ledges. Yes it's far & away superior gameplay to fighting on walk-off stages. Yes ledge Trump and regrab are fine adjustments. I'm...not sure where I'm going with this.... Other than that it all seems to amount to a highly elaborate round of rock-paper-scissors...which is fine? It's serviceable, albeit a rather polarizing way to balance fighters.
I think the issue with ledge trumping as opposed to hogging is that the former strengthens recovering opponents a bit too much. Recovering offstage needs to be a major disadvantage rather than a setup for more things IMO.

But anyway, I'd be game for a fresh take with sweeping moveset overhauls + fewer characters. However I do think it's nice to see the variety in top tier representation that we see (saw?) in smash 4/ultimate compared to previous games, that is only realistically possible with an iterative design approach. Clearly the massive amounts of data on melee/brawl to be found here didn't go unnoticed.
We should have both moveset overhauls and more characters. The former can easily offered like SF4's Omega modes as an alternative to what's already there.
 

TheZizz

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 30, 2007
Messages
306
Location
SoCal
Oh, I know exactly what you mean. I've been out of the loop for some years now, but even at ultimate's offset my competition would fish for those d-tilt openers so transparently ad nauseum (and why wouldn't they?), and I can only imagine the situation now. I'm not here to knock "flowchart" style fighting games, but I play platform fighters to avoid this sort of autopilot paint-by-numbers habdashery, and I refuse to fill my cranium with these pre-canned sequences on principle lul. How melee pulled off its dynamic combo game remains a wonder, that can only be explained by it being a gift from the Greco-Roman pantheon incarnate. Warts and all. Either that or a finely tuned hitstun duration thru extensive playtesting, one of those two. (Though ultimate is still my favorite game to play.)

The d-tilt end lag proposal is interesting, if a bit counterintuitive for laymen and newcomers. I didn't consider the nature of quick unpunishable combo starters being intrinsically OP until you pointed it out. Personally I would like to see something along the lines of buffing DI, to the point where you can mitigate d-tilt's harbinge of devastation, and potentially punish a combo hungry player who didn't notice the abnormal distance. Something to balance "mid" attacks besides slowing them down, it just doesn't feel appropriate to me.

I'd just like to make honorary mention of warlock Punch's lack of end lag. Great design. I mean what business does someone who blocks that instead of evading it, have of punishing anyone. Was full hop or forward roll so insurmountable? I think this is a good rule of thumb for very slow moves, to fashion them into a viable edgeguard tool if nothing else, and they get to keep their full flavor as a big-balls play that only a madman would exercise. It's okay if some specials have extremely fringes cases, as long as they have at least one, in fact I think that's preferable for reasons previously stated.

I see no reason why an exchange across the Z axis should favor either fighter. At least in a world where true combos invalidate the question altogether. Watching someone get juggled around, desperately trying & failing to touch down isn't hype to me, or make me want to take notes, like yeah this up-air is pretty oppressive in this match-up imagine that...in fact it's painful to witness. The damage accrued from the attack that sent them airborne should be punishment enough. Granted this is an ideal. Just as in a perfect world, we can dispense with time-tested movesets across the board and not expect extreme jank and imbalance. (Just look at the aftermath of smash 4/ult DLC additions.)

Aerials are already
 

Quillion

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
5,702
How melee pulled off its dynamic combo game remains a wonder, that can only be explained by it being a gift from the Greco-Roman pantheon incarnate. Warts and all. Either that or a finely tuned hitstun duration thru extensive playtesting, one of those two.
It's a combination of finely tuned hitstun after the excessive multipler in 64, higher gravity, and the fact that not many characters can really take advantage of it.

The d-tilt end lag proposal is interesting, if a bit counterintuitive for laymen and newcomers. I didn't consider the nature of quick unpunishable combo starters being intrinsically OP until you pointed it out. Personally I would like to see something along the lines of buffing DI, to the point where you can mitigate d-tilt's harbinge of devastation, and potentially punish a combo hungry player who didn't notice the abnormal distance. Something to balance "mid" attacks besides slowing them down, it just doesn't feel appropriate to me.
Both can definitely be done at the same time. Ramp up both the lag and hitstun on combo starters (especially long-ranged ones), and buff DI at the same time. It would allow for the 50/50s that make Melee-like platform fighters so dynamic even when caught in a combo. Or even better: program the ability to tailor DI to the move. Keep DI weak on less mobile characters' combo moves, buff it on such for more mobile characters, and have all kill moves have high DI potential.

Aerials are already
It seems you didn't finish writing the post.
 

TheZizz

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 30, 2007
Messages
306
Location
SoCal
Don't forget melee's quicker mobility across the board. And I'm not aware of any viable characters with poor combo game, of which there are no fewer than 10, impractically high skill floor notwithstanding (fox Falco Marth falcon sheik IC peach Yoshi puff and possibly samus), not to mention nonviable characters like Mewtwo...(if you ever witness a string incorporating up-b you will understand...I might search for that clip some day). For a 20+ year old game operating on what is essentially a "day 1 patch," that is insane.

Why do both, when buffing DI alone achieves the purpose of reining in combo starters, and that way d-tilt's won't have to be perplexingly sluggish. Except as a failsafe "just to be sure." Designating slow tilts on a few characters is okay for the sake of variety. But Ultimate is already pushing the boundary with increased endlag imo. (I'm still getting used to the timing on following up clouds dash attack.)

It seems you didn't finish writing the post.
This was not supposed to be published as it is. Also I was going to sanitize (purge) the salty bits but I said, ah to hell with it.

I was just going to mention, that ledges need only be undesirable enough that players aren't retreating onto it for safety, and the regrab mechanic alone seems to have solved this. Also, that ledge hog is such an unspectacular and saddening method of scoring a KO. It's like letting your opponent slowly dangerfall to their doom...finish the job man, don't let them suffer.... Anyway I think ultimate's recovery hit that sweet spot, with fewer gimps and more storied back-and-forth matches.

Also I reconsidered my opinion on vertical combat. Having the top player be at disadvantage as a general rule, is what defines stage pressure. (Though the lack of lateral speed/mobility goes a long way to favoring the player who has access to their dash, without deliberately forcing this dynamic.) However, having one or more characters who specialize in aerial fighting from above, like some kind of inverse Ivysaur, might be cool for variety and/or counterpicking, if a bit of a risky design decision. (Such an aerial-based character might be best to have their KO options exclusively on the ground, or expected to heavily rely on offstage gimps.)
 

Garteam

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 17, 2014
Messages
3,205
Location
Canada, eh?
NNID
Garteam
A lot of this is a symptom of Smash targeting a more casual fanbase that isn't focused on the minutia of gameplay and instead treats the series more like a digital toybox. So long as the game doesn't feel generally slow and clunky, a lot of people will be satisfied because they're not pushing the mechanics to their limits.
 

Quillion

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
5,702
Don't forget melee's quicker mobility across the board. And I'm not aware of any viable characters with poor combo game, of which there are no fewer than 10,
It also has the side effect of favoring characters with that quick mobility though, without promoting the viability of a variety of archetypes. In fairness, the emergent tech of Melee does give slower characters some measure of tools to play around those weaknesses, but that's why I'd like those promoted to actual mechanics.

Why do both, when buffing DI alone achieves the purpose of reining in combo starters, and that way d-tilt's won't have to be perplexingly sluggish. Except as a failsafe "just to be sure." Designating slow tilts on a few characters is okay for the sake of variety. But Ultimate is already pushing the boundary with increased endlag imo. (I'm still getting used to the timing on following up clouds dash attack.)
Because again, DI should provide an opportunity to escape via mixup, not completely invalidate a string or combo. Hitstun and DI together should be tailored to allow for escape via mixup.

That's why I presented an alternative of tailoring DI to individual moves, as has already been done with SDI and even hitstun now. I even heard that NASB2 has that capability in its engine.

I was just going to mention, that ledges need only be undesirable enough that players aren't retreating onto it for safety, and the regrab mechanic alone seems to have solved this. Also, that ledge hog is such an unspectacular and saddening method of scoring a KO. It's like letting your opponent slowly dangerfall to their doom...finish the job man, don't let them suffer.... Anyway I think ultimate's recovery hit that sweet spot, with fewer gimps and more storied back-and-forth matches.
No invincibility on regrab definitely mitigates, but it's still an inherent issue with ledge invincibility. And at least ledge hogging is just one option out of many for offstage play. I'd say the biggest adjustment they need to make is to shrink the ledge grab box while keeping the possibility of ledge grab turnaround (and just so Mario's Cape edgeguards works properly, disable it on that move's hit momentarily).

A lot of this is a symptom of Smash targeting a more casual fanbase that isn't focused on the minutia of gameplay and instead treats the series more like a digital toybox. So long as the game doesn't feel generally slow and clunky, a lot of people will be satisfied because they're not pushing the mechanics to their limits.
Hey, Kirby targets a more casual fanbase too, and even they can tell that Kirby Star Allies has horribly bland level design.
 

TheZizz

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 30, 2007
Messages
306
Location
SoCal
I don't know what that means. If you can input a mixup besides DI then it's not a true combo, unless I'm missing something. I think if the window to full DI is very small, even a single frame, it could nullify combos without being entirely consistent & reliable. I wouldn't want this fighting style to be rendered moot either: ryu, ken, terry & KAZUYA ohhh? are great additions.

I think regrab as it is is plenty sufficient. At worst, ultimate's mechanics allow someone to stall for 10 to 20 seconds, and the regrab is so telegraphed that punishment is a matter of course. Granted, certain up-b hitboxes might complicate that, and I'm not sure how practical it is to block + punish before they are able to exploit normal getup invincibility frames etc. Anyway I like the generous grab boxes, I wouldn't change a thing in that regard.
 

Quillion

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
5,702
I don't know what that means. If you can input a mixup besides DI then it's not a true combo, unless I'm missing something. I think if the window to full DI is very small, even a single frame, it could nullify combos without being entirely consistent & reliable. I wouldn't want this fighting style to be rendered moot either: ryu, ken, terry & KAZUYA ohhh? are great additions.
I wouldn't mind SOME true combos tbf, but they should probably be rather limited. Maybe just limit those to low percents, then mid-percent combos would be more DI dependent. My point is that because DI and hitstun are two different things, they should be adjusted together so that a hitstunned opponent should be able to put themselves out of reach while still giving the attacker a chance to follow up. Then more high-percent interactions would be pure non-combo strings where the opponent in disadvantage has more of a chance to reset to neutral.

Speaking of the tradfighter characters, I'd love for their canceling mechanics to be universalized.
 

volbound1700

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 26, 2007
Messages
4,445
Location
SE USA
I would love to see stronger Single Player content. I don't think it was done perfectly but Brawl's SSE is kind of what I want. Take the SSE but make it thematically like the Melee Single player were just jump from game to game (maybe limit it to the Nintendo titles) and have a level or two based on each series to give homage to that series. I also don't think we need all the cutscenes/movies. That just takes a lot of time/memory that could be spent on game player for the solo mode. Sakurai cited that the leaking of the cutscenes caused him to steer away from SSE but I actually enjoyed all the content of playing through it.

The issue with Smash is that it will always be a better game to play with friends versus solo (similar to Mario Kart or Mario Party). Competitive Online play can only be fun for so long. I can't blame Sakurai and team for focus on the competitive scene as the online play and tournaments are the best fit for the game outside of just having friends over to play. It is a social game and not one you drill through solo at night be yourself.
 

Quillion

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
5,702
The issue with Smash is that it will always be a better game to play with friends versus solo (similar to Mario Kart or Mario Party). Competitive Online play can only be fun for so long. I can't blame Sakurai and team for focus on the competitive scene as the online play and tournaments are the best fit for the game outside of just having friends over to play. It is a social game and not one you drill through solo at night be yourself.
Then they should make the multiplayer meat of the game better designed then. That's not an exclusively competitive concept.
 

Lenidem

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 14, 2018
Messages
1,187
I just want to say that, for a casual like me, your conversation is hard to follow - and I'm a "casual" who's been on Smash Board for years now.

Like, I have no idea what are some the stuff you are discussing. Compared to that, talking about characters is easy, and anyone can do it.

I had lent my Switch games to a friend for a few weeks, and when talking about Smash, he got very excited when I mentioned that Ryu and Ken were in the game, Street Fighter 2 being is favorite game of all times. If had told him about hair-dodge, shield-canceling, counters, modes, and frame related stuff, I would have lost him.

Not no say you're wrong, of course, just to shed some light on why the situation is what it is.
 

Quillion

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
5,702
I just want to say that, for a casual like me, your conversation is hard to follow - and I'm a "casual" who's been on Smash Board for years now.

Like, I have no idea what are some the stuff you are discussing. Compared to that, talking about characters is easy, and anyone can do it.

I had lent my Switch games to a friend for a few weeks, and when talking about Smash, he got very excited when I mentioned that Ryu and Ken were in the game, Street Fighter 2 being is favorite game of all times. If had told him about hair-dodge, shield-canceling, counters, modes, and frame related stuff, I would have lost him.

Not no say you're wrong, of course, just to shed some light on why the situation is what it is.
I keep saying that the easiest way to freshen up the gameplay for casual and competitive alike is to introduce a proper super move system (alongside keeping Final Smash exclusive to Smash Balls). It would give a lot of the older characters some new toys to play with alongside consolidating a lot of the gimmicks of other characters.
 
Top Bottom