I think PictoChat needs to be moved to the Counter/Banned or Banned stages

[The_Altrox]

For those of you who haven't seen my "Stage's kill us?" Topic, here's a link. It may give some insight to what I'm trying to say here.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=210766

Why ban the stage? The hazards aren't that hazardish, right? Well, it's not the hazards themselves that concern me, but how they appear.
They come out of nowhere without warning. If they came out with a warning of some sort, things would be understandible. but they don't. I said in the other topic that it's your fault for getting stage killed, but it's hard to post it on something like this, since even though they appear at certain times, you don't know what's coming next which can unbalance the game a lot.
Let's say you have spikes on the side about to appear. You don't know they're coming, cause a whole lot of hazards may appear. Let's say you have high damage, and you're thrown of the edge, but you have potential to recover. But then, the spikes appear, and you die. If there was a spike warning, this would be justified as your fault. But there is none. Is that randomness fair?
Yes, I figure that goes back to my whole "You shouldn't have gotten grabbed" saying, but must of the hazard counters have nothing that unpredictable that will severely punish for that little mistake.
It's not just spikes either, any immobile object to appear can screw you over without warning. I remember matches where my opponent got trapped under that blowing head, and due to my attacks, he couldn't escape a situation that should have normally been okay for his part.

In short, the hazards themselves aren't bad. It's how they spawn that bothers me. That is why I believe Pictochat should be moved to the Counter/Banned if not Banned stage list.

 

[:mad:]

I'm glad this topic has finally been addressed.
I've always wondered the same thing, I'd like to see it get changed too.

 

[Omit]

Pictochat is neutral now?

 

[The_Altrox]

Pictochat is neutral now?

No, counterpick. But it should be AT LEAST on the counter/banned if not banned for standard/pro tourneys

 

[Mic_128]

Pictochat's hazards have about a 1 sec spawn time, pleanty of time to dodge in midair, roll, ect.

Pictochat's hazards spawn and despawn every 13 seconds. Wether you count in your head or just make use of the game's timer, it's still there and still predictable.

 

[The_Altrox]

Pictochat's hazards have about a 1 sec spawn time, pleanty of time to dodge in midair, roll, ect.

Pictochat's hazards spawn and despawn every 13 seconds. Wether you count in your head or just make use of the game's timer, it's still there and still predictable.

Even if you count, you have no idea what is going to spawn. and 1 second may not be enough, cause even if you were air dodge, or roll, you may end up inside an object like the head, or the cart, or the missile, and then you get harmed whether you try to avoid it or not.

 

[brinboy789]

gasp...a mod double posted?

anyways, i think it is a good counterpick stage because...i like it its kinda luck but you can count as mic said when the stage hazards are gonna come and none of them really kill you except for a few exceptions, so IMO its a good counterpick stage

 

[The_Altrox]

gasp...a mod double posted?

anyways, i think it is a good counterpick stage because...i like it its kinda luck but you can count as mic said when the stage hazards are gonna come and none of them really kill you except for a few exceptions, so IMO its a good counterpick stage

The fact that they are random without warning on what exactly is coming next, and this can sometimes kill you seems like enough to make it counter/banned

 

[buenob]

the fact that you're on pictochat means that you have already played one round, and the loser has 'counter-picked' pictochat

I find that picto-chat is just FD with a higher ceiling and "random" (every 13 seconds) obstacles

basically, what I'm getting at is that the 'worse' player is choosing pictochat, and the logic behind it must be that they can deal with the hazards better (or else they wouldn't choose it), but that really doesn't make sense because since the other player is "better", they will be less likely to be in a "bad" spot when the hazards spawn, and will probably be in control of the match at that time...

this means that the level inherently benefits the more skilled player vs. the less, and since there is some predictability in the timing, and since the hazards really don't lend themselves to unavoidable "best" strategies, it is still perfectly fair from a competitive standpoint, and should not be banned

... lol in my opinion

the only one which i have outright seen someone killed when they weren't on their way to dying already is the diagonal line that comes up (with the two eyes)... that gets rid of the LHS edge, and gimps recoveries for no reason

 

[Tianxiazhai]

Hrm...If you dont get hit, you dont get knocked off, and then you can dodge the hazards, like gimpy said.

 

[Kitamerby]

Hrm...If you dont get hit, you dont get knocked off, and then you can dodge the hazards, like gimpy said.

That's not Gimpy.

Anyways, Pictochat should be neutral on account of awesome music combined with predictable spawns and plenty of time to gtfo the way.

 

[deepseadiva]

I'd like to know at what percentage the hazards will kill you at.

Me and Deoxys discussed this in the Legality sticky... I know we decided on counterpick being fine...

*searches*

 

[Omit]

I think its fine lulz. I mean its not THAT bad and if you suck on it just ban it even if ppl rarely pick it.

 

[Mic_128]

Even if you count, you have no idea what is going to spawn.

After every transformation it then goes back to a blank slate, and it never repeats unless every single of the 26 transformations have occurred in the match.

and 1 second may not be enough, cause even if you were air dodge, or roll, you may end up inside an object like the head, or the cart, or the missile, and then you get harmed whether you try to avoid it or not.

The only things that will kill you if you don't DI correctly are the spikes. The rest of the hazards either have set knockback (mid-air spikes on the sides) or need insane damage (mine cart) or can't kill at all (fire)

And as B0mb said, if you don't like it, just strike it.

 

[The_Altrox]

But after a transformation, you have no idea which set will appear out of the next 25 or what ever number your down to.

 

[Mic_128]

Correct. Which is why it's a great counterpick against people who are poor at adapting fast.

 

[dgameman1]

Correct. Which is why it's a great counterpick against people who are poor at adapting fast.

I think it should be CounterPick.
And so does Mic
and so does the topic starter..

..." I think PictoChat needs to be moved to the Counter/Banned or Banned stages"

 

[Deoxys]

I'd like to know at what percentage the hazards will kill you at.

Me and Deoxys discussed this in the Legality sticky... I know we decided on counterpick being fine...

*searches*

Indeed we did.

I think it should be CounterPick.
And so does Mic
and so does the topic starter..

..." I think PictoChat needs to be moved to the Counter/Banned or Banned stages"

*facepalm*

 

[The_Altrox]

I think it should be CounterPick.
And so does Mic
and so does the topic starter..

..." I think PictoChat needs to be moved to the Counter/Banned or Banned stages"

I say Counter/Banned because I believe it should be at a tourney operator's decision if it isn't banned. Then again, they can make any stage banned or neutral if they wanted in their own tourney, but arguing to make it a standard was what I was going for here

 

[revengeska]

I say Counter/Banned because I believe it should be at a tourney operator's decision if it isn't banned. Then again, they can make any stage banned or neutral if they wanted in their own tourney, but arguing to make it a standard was what I was going for here

By that line of thinking, you might as well make all stages recommended as Neutral/Counterpick or Counterpick/Banned, or even just make them all Neutral/Counterpick/Banned. After all, by your line of reasoning, it should be a standard that the TO gets to choose where stages should be placed. But then having the discussion in the first place would be rather pointless, wouldn't it?

The underlying theme here is that the SBR had it's reasons for not recommending the option for this stage as it had others, and they debated it extensively. There's nothing wrong with disagreeing with the decision, and as a TO you're free to make whatever stages you want legal, but to say that your opinion should be the standard makes it sound like you think you know more than everyone else, which sounds pretty cocky imo.

 

[~Peachy~]

I agree with Mr. Meno. We'd like know the kill percents! Can someone find those out please? ^__^

 

[Mic_128]

remind me and ill try and find those in the morning

and by morning i dont mean the part of the morning that i mstill up at.

 

[Deoxys]

W/ perfect DI please.

Actually, IDC because that stage is fair anyway.

 

[The_Altrox]

By that line of thinking, you might as well make all stages recommended as Neutral/Counterpick or Counterpick/Banned, or even just make them all Neutral/Counterpick/Banned. After all, by your line of reasoning, it should be a standard that the TO gets to choose where stages should be placed. But then having the discussion in the first place would be rather pointless, wouldn't it?

The underlying theme here is that the SBR had it's reasons for not recommending the option for this stage as it had others, and they debated it extensively. There's nothing wrong with disagreeing with the decision, and as a TO you're free to make whatever stages you want legal, but to say that your opinion should be the standard makes it sound like you think you know more than everyone else, which sounds pretty cocky imo.

I wouldn't call it cocky. I think the decision should have been re-thought

 

[Zephramrill]

Trust me, Pictochat's hazards are the least of your problems.

 

[The_Altrox]

Trust me, Pictochat's hazards are the least of your problems.

Yeah, I can adapt. I just dislike the whole random factor of it all.

 

[dawgbowl]

Pictochat for Neutral.

that is all, it's the most balanced stage ever. It changes!! and... is just awesome.

ok, I just love it XD

 

[Jigglymaster]

Its flat half of the game and only half of the drawings will appear and only 1/3 of the drawings are hazords.

 

[Deoxys]

Pictochat for Neutral.

that is all, it's the most balanced stage ever. It changes!! and... is just awesome.

ok, I just love it XD

It's far from the most balanced stage. First of all, it's very wide. Secondly, it has no platforms between drawings, and many trans Thirdly, it gives Kirby that stoning glitch.

 

[Mic_128]

Okay, few snippets from the SBR.

The missiles and the spikes on the side can't kill you. It's set knockback, I wanted to reconfirm it before posting, so I took a 999 Lucas there got hit by both, and lived. Same with the spikes on the side of the level, they'll only do % damage, not kill you. The reason Joshu died in the vid was, he's bad. He saw the missile and instead of air dodging, tried to DI away, killing himself.

Also to add

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xcojcb7ZMxc

One thing to add, that match where I died to the missile at 0 was indeed of bad DI, but also a hindered reaction time thanks to our pal wifi. If that ever happens to someone in a real match they are either dumb or just have no clue whatsoever to do on that stage.

 

[Mic_128]

Okay, few snippets from the SBR.

The missiles and the spikes on the side can't kill you. It's set knockback, I wanted to reconfirm it before posting, so I took a 999 Lucas there got hit by both, and lived. Same with the spikes on the side of the level, they'll only do % damage, not kill you. The reason Joshu died in the vid was, he's bad. He saw the missile and instead of air dodging, tried to DI away, killing himself.

Also to add

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xcojcb7ZMxc

One thing to add, that match where I died to the missile at 0 was indeed of bad DI, but also a hindered reaction time thanks to our pal wifi. If that ever happens to someone in a real match they are either dumb or just have no clue whatsoever to do on that stage.

 

[Rayquaza07]

I think the stage is just fine at counterpick.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Borderline CP. Despite the fact that the hazards are predictable, they are exploitable. For Example, I used Yoshi on this stage. When I grabbed my foe, I saw the stage change to the drawing that has 4 spikes.

I didn't throw him but he still died from the spikes due to grab release forcing him to a spike.
He was still in the grab break state when he got hit by the spikes so it was inescapable.
You can also do this on this drawing too. Yoshi can do this on the whole cast as well as Kirby and Dedede with Inhale and Swallow.

Also, These drawings are heaven for Dedede because he can CG against the drawings' walls until they disappear. They may be temporary, but his opponent will end up with a lot of damage.

I'm sure there are more exploits than these.

 

[Pierce7d]

A) I don't approve of Random damage. I also think Norfair should be counterpick/banned, but I'll save that for another topic.

B) I'm sorry, but the don't get hit concept doesn't cut it here. This is a fighting game, we are going to be hitting each other. There is a chance of additional reward for hitting your opponent that is somewhat random based. This is unfair. I have been hit and the missle was drawn around my character sprite as I was Fairing to DI, and therefore could not do anything in time to dodge. Furthermore, the additional hit put me in a worse POSITION, then I would've otherwise been in.

C) Camping on this stage is actually dumber than you realize. I'm not talking about the hugeness of the stage; that's perfectly acceptable. I'm talking about MK. One time, my brother and I were playing around and we hit Pictochat instead of random one time (you know how one player hits start, and the other player starts heading for a neutral toward the top, so it ends up on Pictochat). So I was like "wth, we should just play it for fun!"
Did you know after acquiring height from some stage transformation, he can glide across the tremendous length of the stage, the reverse SL, and then glide to the OTHER end of the stage. If jumps are used properly, this can last far longer than 13 seconds, and something awesome will spawn, and give MK amazing landing options. Essentially, it encourages stalling. The MK player can simply say that it's in his best interest to avoid the opponent during transformations that are not beneficial to him, or lackthereof, and who can deny this logic? Tornado also sets your opponent stupidly into every imaginable hazard. Pit can follow a similar strategy with his UpB, and he has arrows! Fortuantely, Charizard isn't really an issue here. Though he glides slow, he lacks a use-able projectile, and suffers from fatigue. However, I wonder what Fox might be capable of here.
Though camping is encouraged in Brawl, most stages do not have options which allow your opponent to effectively completely evade you simply by running away.

C) Alright, perhaps most of the hazards that damage you cannot kill you directly, however this doesn't mean the stage can't gimp you. I HAVE tried to upB, to sweet spot a ledge that was replaced with a platform, or blocked. I have been blocked by the blowing face from returning to the stage. This stage is just gimmicky in it's whole nature, and I can't see why anyone would opt to play here EXCEPT to absue GIMMICKS which helps remove the victory from the MORE TALENTED PLAYER. Don't tell me player A is better than player B, because player A hit player B, and a missile happened to spawn and deal additional damage, and player A got a lucky kill off the follow up. I was under the impression that the SBR things that stages should be banned on the premises that Super Smash Bros. Brawl is changed into a game of "Use the stage to gimp your opponent" because this detracts from the natural competative play of the game, and incorrectly rewards players.

Hell, why don't we just turn Ray Guns on? Rayguns can't kill you, unless the better player uses them better? What does it matter if a Raygun spawns at my feet as my opponent is across the stage, giving me a temporary projectile advantage? It doesn't kill unless I'm skilled, and the other player shouldn't have been far away from me ever, because Ray Guns might spawn near me and not him. Plz turn them on in tourney.

EDIT: I wasn't even going to TALK about how broken D3 is here. He has OMG so much space to chaingrab. Now, ordinarily, you can't really get killed by D3's chaingrab, but if you're at, say 80%, D3 can pummel safely once. This means he can take LARGE periods of time chaingrabbing players across the stage. Oh well if a wall spawns in front of you while you're already in the chaingrab. That's D3's fault for being good and getting a grab. Let's reward him with a random infinate, which will cost you 13 seconds of additional damage, into the end of the chaingrab, into an fthrow off the stage. That's fair, isn't it? If the spikes appear, that's an infinite into a kill hazard right there! Oh, some fire spawned in the middle of the stage? When we're done, why not just toss our opponent into the flames? What? A missile has been sighted you say? AWESOME! More free damage because of my awesome skill.

Also Falco, Rob, and Pit get stupid ways to completely evade their opponent completely while camping them. In New Jersey, there is no stage currently legal, where I would be completely unable to REACH a character with Marth for over half a minute. It might not be advisable to do so on Pokemon Stadium, but it's possible. Here, it could be certifiably impossible, depending on the picture spawns. Would my opponent be wrong for evading me when they could combat me at a later time with a distinct stage advantage? That's the point of a counter pick after all, to use the stage advantages.

Pictochat is so dumb.

 

[Mic_128]

B) I'm sorry, but the don't get hit concept doesn't cut it here. This is a fighting game, we are going to be hitting each other. There is a chance of additional reward for hitting your opponent that is somewhat random based. This is unfair.

Not anymore unfair than characters being able to randomly pull out bombs (Peach) fire at max speed and pwer without charging (luigi) and just the general randomness og GAW's hammer. They're not exactly the same, but there's randomness in the game, and I don't see any reason why a little more that covers everyone equally is that big a deal.

I have been hit and the missle was drawn around my character sprite as I was Fairing to DI, and therefore could not do anything in time to dodge. Furthermore, the additional hit put me in a worse POSITION, then I would've otherwise been in.

You should have been paying attention to how long the previous transformation was up, along with the fact that you were entering the area where the missile could have appeared. It's like complaining about getting hit by the cars in Mute city because you just used a move with long lag time, or you jumped where the boxes spawn on Green Greens and hit an exploding box.

C) Camping on this stage is actually dumber than you realize. I'm not talking about the hugeness of the stage; that's perfectly acceptable. I'm talking about MK. One time, my brother and I were playing around and we hit Pictochat instead of random one time (you know how one player hits start, and the other player starts heading for a neutral toward the top, so it ends up on Pictochat). So I was like "wth, we should just play it for fun!"
Did you know after acquiring height from some stage transformation, he can glide across the tremendous length of the stage, the reverse SL, and then glide to the OTHER end of the stage. If jumps are used properly, this can last far longer than 13 seconds, and something awesome will spawn, and give MK amazing landing options. Essentially, it encourages stalling.

Stalling is banned, which I would say would cover that.

However moving around so you can be at an advantage when the stage transforms is a viable option for anyone. Run around and get to a spot that you know where you'll be out of the hazards when they spawn.

C) Alright, perhaps most of the hazards that damage you cannot kill you directly, however this doesn't mean the stage can't gimp you. I HAVE tried to upB, to sweet spot a ledge that was replaced with a platform, or blocked. I have been blocked by the blowing face from returning to the stage. This stage is just gimmicky in it's whole nature, and I can't see why anyone would opt to play here EXCEPT to absue GIMMICKS which helps remove the victory from the MORE TALENTED PLAYER.

Sounds like you just haven't gotten used to it and adapted. YES some changes can change the way you need to recover. Just keep an eye on the clock when recovering. If the stage changes, you have to be flexible to recover. You can't always drop down low and sweetspot the edge.

Don't tell me player A is better than player B, because player A hit player B, and a missile happened to spawn and deal additional damage, and player A got a lucky kill off the follow up.

On the other hand, is he better because he waited til the right time, threw you at the right angle on the 1/26th chance that the missile could spawn, succeeds, and the opponent dies due to them DI-ing the wrong way?

I was under the impression that the SBR things that stages should be banned on the premises that Super Smash Bros. Brawl is changed into a game of "Use the stage to gimp your opponent" because this detracts from the natural competitive play of the game, and incorrectly rewards players.

No, only that stages shouldn't be insta-win for some characters and that they shouldn't radically change the game to something it's not (such as Icicle Mountain where it's pretty much who can jump the best)

Hell, why don't we just turn Ray Guns on? Rayguns can't kill you, unless the better player uses them better? What does it matter if a Raygun spawns at my feet as my opponent is across the stage, giving me a temporary projectile advantage? It doesn't kill unless I'm skilled, and the other player shouldn't have been far away from me ever, because Ray Guns might spawn near me and not him. Plz turn them on in tourney.

Rayguns affect the two players in two different ways. A stage transformation affects both the same way.

EDIT: I wasn't even going to TALK about how broken D3 is here. He has OMG so much space to chaingrab. Now, ordinarily, you can't really get killed by D3's chaingrab, but if you're at, say 80%, D3 can pummel safely once. This means he can take LARGE periods of time chaingrabbing players across the stage.

Like final Destination?

Oh well if a wall spawns in front of you while you're already in the chaingrab. That's D3's fault for being good and getting a grab.

Just like Poke Stadium 1? Or when Isle Delphino transforms mid chaingrab?

If the spikes appear, that's an infinite into a kill hazard right there!

You cannot die from the spikes unless you suck at DI-ing. Its very easy to survive the spikes even at 999%. See my quote from the SBR above.

Oh, some fire spawned in the middle of the stage? When we're done, why not just toss our opponent into the flames?

If you can get them in there, good work. If you're on high percentage you're gonna want to be hit by the fire instead of thrown off anyway.

What? A missile has been sighted you say? AWESOME! More free damage because of my awesome skill.

If you can throw them into one without them dodging, grats. If it's there, make use of it. Besides, the misile's another hazard that can only kill if you DI horribly.

Also Falco, Rob, and Pit get stupid ways to completely evade their opponent completely while camping them. In New Jersey, there is no stage currently legal, where I would be completely unable to REACH a character with Marth for over half a minute. It might not be advisable to do so on Pokemon Stadium, but it's possible. Here, it could be certifiably impossible, depending on the picture spawns. Would my opponent be wrong for evading me when they could combat me at a later time with a distinct stage advantage? That's the point of a counter pick after all, to use the stage advantages.

All I'm getting from this is "boo hoo, my character with no projectiles gets hit by characters with projectiles who use the terrain to their advantage.

They are SUPPOSED to be able to do that. That's why you as Marth would CP Smashville or something (I don't play Marth, so I apologize if that's not the best example) If you find that fighting characters on stages that give ranged an advantage, stage strike it.

 

[Titanium Dragon]

If you suck at pictochat, learn how to play the level, scrub.

I hate it when people whine because they suck too much to deal with a level other than FD. Get over yourself and learn how to play more than one stage.

 

[Pierce7d]

If you suck at pictochat, learn how to play the level, scrub.

I hate it when people whine because they suck too much to deal with a level other than FD. Get over yourself and learn how to play more than one stage.

Uh, totally not helpful toward the discussion. I'm actually very good on Pictochat. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be banned.

 

[Titanium Dragon]

Okay, so:

You are good on pictochat. Therefore, playing on pictochat takes skill, and gives an advantage to someone who is more experienced/better at playing the stage.

So what's the problem here, exactly?

Stages get banned for being unfair. Some stages are banned to avoid DeDeDe from chaingrabbing people to death off the walk-off side of the stage, because it is too easy to do so and it makes DeDeDe far too good on those stages. Others are banned because they're too random, and skill doesn't matter enough.

Pictochat does not appear to meet either of these criteria, especially given your claim of being good at the level. Its not a perfectly balanced stage, but no stage is; every stage grants at least some advantage to some character. Which character(s) does Pictochat unacceptably advantage to the point where the stage needs to be banned? How random are deaths which have a second of warning, can be predicted to some degree by previous iterations, and which occur on a regular system?

 

[Pierce7d]

All I'm getting from this is "boo hoo, my character with no projectiles gets hit by characters with projectiles who use the terrain to their advantage.

They are SUPPOSED to be able to do that. That's why you as Marth would CP Smashville or something (I don't play Marth, so I apologize if that's not the best example) If you find that fighting characters on stages that give ranged an advantage, stage strike it.

I'm going to address this point first.

No. I'd gladly fight Pit or R.O.B. on Bridge of Eldin with Marth, because this stage doesn't grant them the ability to completely evade me for long periods of time. I believe that's one of the reasons that New Pork City and 75m is banned.

Also, Pictochat can affect both players in different ways, lol. To think otherwise is silly. There is no optimal position to stand where you can maximize on all 26 hazards, just like there is no optimal position where you should stand to catch a spawning ray gun. Also, a ray-gun gives both characters the same ability.

Also, saying that since I can be a decent player on Pictochat makes it a viable stage is a bogus argument. I'm confident in my ability to win on Warioware against any opponent below my skill level. That doesn't make it a tourney viable stage.

 

[Titanium Dragon]

Also, saying that since I can be a decent player on Pictochat makes it a viable stage is a bogus argument. I'm confident in my ability to win on Warioware against any opponent below my skill level. That doesn't make it a tourney viable stage.

That's not the point. The point is you said you're good at using pictochat, which (to me) indicates that you would pick the stage if you felt your opponent of generally equal skill level didn't have enough experience with the stage, and thus you'd gain advantage via that pick. This isn't a bad thing.

Also, Pictochat can affect both players in different ways, lol. To think otherwise is silly. There is no optimal position to stand where you can maximize on all 26 hazards, just like there is no optimal position where you should stand to catch a spawning ray gun. Also, a ray-gun gives both characters the same ability.

But there are positions which are less likely to be affected by hazards than others, and which positions are best to stand in vary depending on which hazards have already occurred. It also helps you if you can keep track of the time despite being active and if you can react quickly to hazards appearing, regardless of positioning.