I need help vs the Snake match-up

[ipitydatfu]

bowsercide cancel >_>

but yeah. why dont you follow him offstage but dont do anything? mindgames there

 

[CT Chia]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6PlrPYa7N8

idk if he was sandbagging or not since it was a friendly, but he was def warmed up since it was right after winner's finals against m2k lol.
i think i played pretty well this match, so it offers some tips. i dont have much time to go too indepth in it right now, but rob has a lot going for him in the matchup. the gimps, abusing snake's lag, projectiles, and ***ftilt*** lol

 

[Commander_Beef]

Nevr use a single forward smash or up smash until he's at least 150%...
Spamming forward tilt, down tilt AND up tilt?? Only use those?

 

[HolyNightmare]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6PlrPYa7N8

idk if he was sandbagging or not since it was a friendly, but he was def warmed up since it was right after winner's finals against m2k lol.
i think i played pretty well this match, so it offers some tips. i dont have much time to go too indepth in it right now, but rob has a lot going for him in the matchup. the gimps, abusing snake's lag, projectiles, and ***ftilt*** lol

Maybe he was still scared after the beating he got from M2k I dunno Ally doesn't get hit by that many projectiles usually and his way more campy. He didn't unleash the terror of the dgrab tech chase on you

 

[Jamnt0ast]

Hmmm.

Personally, I juggle with uair and spam grabs a LOT. force snake to approach and punish him for it, but be awear when he's baiting you to jump. Projectiles are good for forcing approaches in this matchup, but not for damage, considering most snakes will stay on the ground and poweshield everything you throw at them.

 

[Fear The Force]

I find that being aggressive works well vs. snake. I like to get in his face and f-tilt. Good snakes are good at spotdodging, and down smash helps, as well as a short hop fair into bair.

If he misses with up-tilt, I like to down tilt snake and try to make him trip, because then I can f-tilt him off of the stage.

I find that spotdodging multiple times helps with the mind games, into down smash. Also, do retreating nairs into forward tilts...they help a ton.

 

[Overswarm]

On an unrelated note, I do not, in fact, fear the force.

 

[Fear The Force]

On an unrelated note, Fear The Force is laughing at you, lol. :D

What are some good counterpicks vs. snake, besides frigate?

 

[SuSa]

Why does everyone insist bringing us to Frigate?

Avoid all Metroid stages buddy. I'll just let you know that now.

 

[noodles]

id bring snake to fd or rainbow cruise as rob

 

[Wolydarg]

Why does everyone insist bringing us to Frigate?

Avoid all Metroid stages buddy. I'll just let you know that now.

Care to let us know the justification for that statement?

Frigate is by far my favorite stage, and I don't see any intrinsic property of it that would favor Snake more than ROB.

 

[noodles]

fatal tends to cp frigate alot. so i usually ban it. dont know why

 

[SuSa]

id bring snake to fd or rainbow cruise as rob

FD is better then Frigate.

Care to let us know the justification for that statement?

Frigate is by far my favorite stage, and I don't see any intrinsic property of it that would favor Snake more than ROB.

It's not favoring more then another, it's the advantages we get here. Even something as stupid as the platforms here helps us have better stage control and an easier time camping you while avoiding your projectiles. We have a larger c4/mine hitbox, and something to shield us from lasers/gyro that isn't coming straight at us (which is easy to powershield)

The stage flipping doesn't really affect anyone who knows the stage and knows how to avoid a stage flip killing you.

The random platforms can save us - which are more helpful to us then you. (You can gimp us, we have a harder time gimping you. From my experience those random platforms save me more then my opponent)


This forces you to approach, which is exactly what we want.



Also:

IMO Snake's best stages are Neutrals (which are entirely matchup dependant) and Metroid stages (which one is also matchup dependant)

 

[Commander_Beef]

I've always found that spamming back air to Snake all the time, works well so he won't punish with his formidable tilts/jab...Use forward air only for the C-stick backward spacing thing unless if you're edgeguarding him, and try to time a good laser while Snake is holding a grenade Holy.

 

[Fear The Force]

How does rainbow cruise help. Susa, I somewhat agree with your statement...sometimes, I have problems with snake on frigate, but I do perform better on FD. I'm definitely going to try rainbow cruise. Isn't japes good vs. snake too?

 

[Commander_Beef]

I'm definitely going to try rainbow cruise. Isn't japes good vs. snake too?

It's not good against Snake...it's great against Snake! :D
Camp yo *** all day!

 

[noodles]

high ceiling helps alot there

 

[HugS™]

Frigate is good because, as Susa said, the stage does make Nade camping easier for Snake while making it harder for ROB to land his projectiles. The curved ledges on the 2nd part of the stage allow him to jump, chuck them at the angled stage so that they shoot at a 90 degree angle at full speed, making it harder to to just shoot them away.

The benefit of shooting the laser normally is that you can stop the grenade and hit snake at the same time, you don't get that here with these angled ledges. Frigate isn't terrible, but there are better CP's.

 

[SuSa]

HugS. When I get my liscence I want friendlies. I feel so dissapointed in myself for SD'ing. I want to get ***** by you darn it. (Havokk from some random Lancaster tourney where I SD'd with MK on our last match of our set. you have some epic DI man <3 you just never would die...)


On a more important note:

RC works simply because our c4/mine become far less useful here. HOWEVER you need to be REALLY CAREFUL on certain parts (like the "3rd" top phase) where there are LOW CEILINGS because utilt just ***** there.

 

[Mr.E]

The second part of Frigate is horrible for Snake. He has absolutely no answer to ROB camping the moving side platforms there, as grenades are limited and he can't safely get himself out there. I'm not sure if Frigate really offers anything else for ROB except that but it's a pretty big deal. I swear every Snake player bans RC and I personally dislike Japes for a number of reasons, what else is there besides Frigate and FD? Well, I like Mansion, but that seems to be a MW-only stage...

 

[SuSa]

You can avoid our dthrow tech chase by rolling away. You roll to far/fast for us to regrab you.

I'll just throw that out there for all ROB mains. Personally I think its stupid to withhold the information (I was originally all for keeping it hush hush...)

It's only 3 characters and we can still tech chase if we're facing a ledge and are sorta close to it and stuff, so it's not drastic.

 

[Commander_Beef]

reasons, what else is there besides Frigate and FD?

Distant Planet can also be a good counterpick for this matchup...

 

[Overswarm]

You can avoid our dthrow tech chase by rolling away. You roll to far/fast for us to regrab you.

Incorrect. Snake can 0-death anyone with his d-throw tech chase, assuming he doesn't make a mistake.

Dash, hit down on the c-stick, then grab. Like mortar sliding, but with a grab. Your grab range becomes, oh, about three times as long.

 

[noodles]

0_o thats awesome

i end up doing mortar slide though. what are your exact inputs?

edit: i was hitting up due to habit >__<

i still cant do it though

 

[Overswarm]

just down, then z on the c-stick. You're interrupting your dash with a grab, you could technically use A. Sheik players did it in melee for a grab boost all the time.

 

[noodles]

*needs to work on brawl tech skill

thanks for the info

 

[SuSa]

Overswarm, you should go test it again. Obviously you know more about my main then myself and several others.

We tested for the boost grab. I don't know why you would think we wouldn't.

ROB, Zamus, and Snake can avoid a regrab if they roll away ASAP and can complete their roll.

Our tester even had tested in the assumption the Snake already knew they are going to roll, and ran ASAP and they rolled ASAP. He couldn't grab them.

Just today - 4 hours of brawling, roughly 2 of which were Snake dittos we were time and time again proving this testing correct. We couldn't regrab eachother, and I know to boost grab and when. You need to boost grab to chaingrab Falco using grab releases.

I could not grab him, once.

Zamus rolls to fast
Snake rolls to far
ROB is a bit of both

 

[Overswarm]

Overswarm, you should go test it again. Obviously you know more about my main then myself and several others.

We tested for the boost grab. I don't know why you would think we wouldn't.
ROB, Zamus, and Snake can avoid a regrab if they roll away ASAP and can complete their roll.

Our tester even had tested in the assumption the Snake already knew they are going to roll, and ran ASAP and they rolled ASAP. He couldn't grab them.

Just today - 4 hours of brawling, roughly 2 of which were Snake dittos we were time and time again proving this testing correct. We couldn't regrab eachother, and I know to boost grab and when. You need to boost grab to chaingrab Falco using grab releases.

I could not grab him, once.

Zamus rolls to fast
Snake rolls to far
ROB is a bit of both

The fact that you think ROB has both a fast and long roll is enough to make me discredit you.

If for some reason you think I'm incorrect, I'm gonna go ahead and go out on a limb and say that you're wrong. I've done it multiple times; it's harder vs. certain characters, but ROB is by far one of the easiest.

I play the Snake D3 matchup by nade grabbing then d-throw tech chasing until I can hit/throw them off the stage to edgeguard. Rolling away doesn't work.


I'd suggest testing it again. If you're still having trouble, you're probably grabbing too late; the grab hitbox lasts surprisingly long, and I generally grab before they are standing up. Once they are "available", it pops them into the grab before they can even spot dodge.

As for your "obviously you know more about my main", I'm gonna go ahead and throw out that I used to be a ROB main and I know how to play Snake. That and the fact that I've been testing things in smash for about 5 years now and it doesn't really do me much good to say "OMG GUYS, LOOK WHAT I FOUND" when it doesn't work. I spread knowledge because it enhances the metagame; everyone already knows my name, I already win, I have no reason to lie.

So think for a moment...

You've got a player that used to play ROB posting in a thread where holy nightmare discusses his issues against Ally (that's ROB vs. Snake, btw) saying that Snake can boost grab by dash attack-grabbing and can catch ROB out of his roll.

In earlier posts, you see holy nightmare allude to this being an issue in his game as well.

You, yourself, have been unable to do this properly and believe to have tested it. I, too, have claimed to have tested it. I have claimed that it does work and it has been of use to me, and you know other ROB's (at least holy) has trouble when the Snake does it to them.

When on the ground after a d-throw, you have a grand total of 5 options:

roll away, roll towards, sit still, stand up, getup attack


Do you really think that simply because YOU tried and failed at something, it means that holy and I, two of the best ROBs that have ever existed for this game, failed to find a counter to this strategy when there are only FIVE options? Do you seriously think that we didn't try rolling away to see if it works?

Considering a monkey could mash away on the control stick after a snake d-throw and see "hey, I didn't get regrabbed!" and continue to do this, I daresay we just might have tried it before and wouldn't be having this discussion. I play with two snake players and one snake secondary on a frequent basis, and Ally is Holy's brother. We aren't unfamilar with the d-throw tech chase, and I'm gonna go ahead and hazard a guess that your brief testing session was flawed by faulty ability on the part of the Snake player.

Of course, maybe we didn't try holding left.


Bolded above, I noticed you said "tester" and "Snake dittos". Considering we're talking about ROB, I'm going to ignore the Snake ditto part; that can be another discussion someday. The "tester" part is a little funny to me, as it implies that A) it wasn't you and B) we aren't given a name to ask questions.

I also found it humorous that you said "I don't understand why you think we wouldn't". Why the hell do you think that we didn't test hitting left on the control stick?


Go test it again. Grab earlier, you grab him out of his roll with the extended grab hit-box. ROB can't even spot dodge.

 

[SuSa]

The fact that you think ROB has both a fast and long roll is enough to make me discredit you.

A roll from the ground is different then an actual roll.

Go to Training Mode and make both characters Snake. Have Snake roll.

Now dthrow the Snake and have him roll.

You'll be able to see the difference, if you can't your blind.

If for some reason you think I'm incorrect, I'm gonna go ahead and go out on a limb and say that you're wrong. I've done it multiple times; it's harder vs. certain characters, but ROB is by far one of the easiest.

You can still do it if they are stupid and buffer a shield or try to perform an attack after rolling away which is what most people do. I am telling you you can avoid it.

I play the Snake D3 matchup by nade grabbing then d-throw tech chasing until I can hit/throw them off the stage to edgeguard. Rolling away doesn't work.

Snake D3 matchup? When did I say anything about D3? Are you all there OS?

Snake D3 is completely irrelevant.

I'd suggest testing it again. If you're still having trouble, you're probably grabbing too late; the grab hitbox lasts surprisingly long, and I generally grab before they are standing up. Once they are "available", it pops them into the grab before they can even spot dodge.

I would suggest you test again, and when I get home tomorrow I will to for the sake of being fair and complete. PS: You don't want to spotdodge to avoid the grab. Those 4 frames don't get you anywhere.

As for your "obviously you know more about my main", I'm gonna go ahead and throw out that I used to be a ROB main and I know how to play Snake. That and the fact that I've been testing things in smash for about 5 years now and it doesn't really do me much good to say "OMG GUYS, LOOK WHAT I FOUND" when it doesn't work. I spread knowledge because it enhances the metagame; everyone already knows my name, I already win, I have no reason to lie.

I know you used to be a ROB main, and to be honest you were a better ROB main then you are a MK main. May I also point out you were a ROB main and you used to play Snakes. If you didn't know how to avoid it back then - what makes you think you know you can avoid it now?

So think for a moment...

You've got a player that used to play ROB posting in a thread where holy nightmare discusses his issues against Ally (that's ROB vs. Snake, btw) saying that Snake can boost grab by dash attack-grabbing and can catch ROB out of his roll.

Are you trying to say that I don't know who these two players are? I know Holy and Ally. Both Canadian players. You have a player that currently uses Snake and faces even nooby ROBs (doesn't take a good one to roll away) and always attempts to boost grab. The only time I get it is when the ROB was trying to counter-attack or something just as stupid.

You, yourself, have been unable to do this properly and believe to have tested it. I, too, have claimed to have tested it. I have claimed that it does work and it has been of use to me, and you know other ROB's (at least holy) has trouble when the Snake does it to them.

I was not the first to test this, and I did not know about this until Tub (A Snake tester who has worked with me time and time again for testing things for Snake) sent me a PM about it. He asked (and I agreed) to keep it between the top Snake players because why should we help ROB and Zamus who are already soft counters for us?

When on the ground after a d-throw, you have a grand total of 5 options:

roll away, roll towards, sit still, stand up, getup attack

Wow, that must have been hard to think of. Tell someone who tech chases on a regular basis what his opponent's options are.

Should I go ahead and tell you what we can do to you for each of those options? You seemed to start this statement then diverse onto another subject. (Below)

Do you really think that simply because YOU tried and failed at something, it means that holy and I, two of the best ROBs that have ever existed for this game, failed to find a counter to this strategy when there are only FIVE options? Do you seriously think that we didn't try rolling away to see if it works?

What did you try after the roll? Spotdodge?

Considering a monkey could mash away on the control stick after a snake d-throw and see "hey, I didn't get regrabbed!" and continue to do this, I daresay we just might have tried it before and wouldn't be having this discussion. I play with two snake players and one snake secondary on a frequent basis, and Ally is Holy's brother. We aren't unfamilar with the d-throw tech chase, and I'm gonna go ahead and hazard a guess that your brief testing session was flawed by faulty ability on the part of the Snake player.

Were you rolling away ASAP? What did you do after rolling away? You don't think I wouldn't test with doing the boost grab even a little earlier? Varying times perhaps? I'm not an idiot when I test things.

Bolded above, I noticed you said "tester" and "Snake dittos". Considering we're talking about ROB, I'm going to ignore the Snake ditto part; that can be another discussion someday. The "tester" part is a little funny to me, as it implies that A) it wasn't you and B) we aren't given a name to ask questions.

I don't think you quite understood me.

I said Snake, ROB, and Zamus. If I know for a fact that one of the names he (Tub) has given me is correct, I have only been able to sometimes regrab a ROB (assumed they tried to dsmash me or something equally stupid), and haven't had the chance to test against Zamus, I'm willing to bet he tested it well enough.

Of course I'd do my own testing as well. Especially before I try to be nice and share information that was originally meant for Snake only ears.

I also found it humorous that you said "I don't understand why you think we wouldn't". Why the hell do you think that we didn't test hitting left on the control stick?

And what did you try after hitting left on the control stick?

Go test it again. Grab earlier, you grab him out of his roll with the extended grab hit-box. ROB can't even spot dodge.

I'll test yet again when I get home tomorrow just to make you happy. Hell, I may even do a nice frame-by-frame for you.

 

[Mr.E]

Way to disect that post and make it ****ING LONG.

I don't actually know one way or the other, except that it seems to be a PITA to me, but...

"You can still do it if they are stupid and buffer a shield or try to perform an attack after rolling away..."
"PS: You don't want to spotdodge to avoid the grab."
"The only time I get it is when the ROB was trying to counter-attack or something just as stupid."
"What did you try after the roll? Spotdodge?"
"I have only been able to sometimes regrab a ROB (assumed they tried to dsmash me or something equally stupid)"

...what SHOULD we be doing? We obviously shouldn't try to shield (gets grabbed). According to you, we also shouldn't spotdodge, our fastest evasive action, and we shouldn't use an attack after getting up (grab armor?). So you pretty much just told us doing everything is a stupid idea after rolling away and getting up, except trying to walk, dash, or jump away. But if we can't spotdodge fast enough, how would any of those work?

 

[Overswarm]

lol @ Susa


If you have to do something after the roll to evade his grab you can't evade it. The grab catches you out of your roll if you time it properly; ROB snaps off the ground and into Snake's hands. Due to super armor, you can grab him out of any attack. The very best possibility is that ROB can spot dodge and Snake whiffs his grab, but you have already told us this is not a possibility.


Also, you might want to look at things in context. It looks like you read the post line by line and replied to each section as its own entity, not realizing how they were connected into a single coherent thought. I think most would pick up on the fact that if someone is saying they play the Snake D3 matchup almost solely by d-throw chasing, they are implying that they are proficient at it and are not working solely off theory.

 

[SuSa]

Alright screw it. Don't believe me and continue getting grabbed. I'm just not going to argue my point because it is getting us nowhere.

Good luck vs Ally, Holy.

 

[Jorgeme]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=235804&page=2


And Overswarm is the champion!
Wait that is bad news for ROB

 

[SuSa]

Yah... for once....

We can boost grab and grab him during his roll like OS stated. Surprisingly... turns out I was off by just a few frames to actually get the grab...

Man Brawl+ Codes are useful for testing..

 

[tibs7]

dw susa we still love you

 

[SuSa]

So OS.

I hear footstooling takes away all your jumps.

(I'll stop here...)

Anyways, check out the dthrow thread I made on the Snake boards. We're going to get in-depth into it with frame data for the speed of rolls, distances (with pictures and ratings) and our options out of each of the rolls from prediction to "guarentee'd follow ups" that will make our options better known to ourselve

Not sure if it will be of any help, but it will show everyone what we can do to them... (dair, ftilt, jab, regrab, utilt, dash attack, etc.)

 

[Overswarm]

For Susa:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCLIg6WT7zM



I know my shiz.

 

[SuSa]

Nice video.

I give you props for that. lol



Ugh. Can't believe I didn't test for invincibility frames running out mid-roll.

I feel like an idiot now. :/

 

[Overswarm]

You're thinking too hard. It took me about 10 seconds to figure out that Snake can 0-death ROB. You don't need frame data to find things like this out, just look at it logically.

Do his running boost grab. Anyone that ends ANYWHERE within that range can be grabbed. Some could possibly be fast enough to require Snake to literally run for them as if he knew which direction they were going ('calling them on it'), but if they are in that range they can be grabbed.

Due to super armor, you can't rely on an attack. Only evasive manuevers have 100% chance of working if you have open frames, so you only have to worry about the fastest possible evasive manuver and if they can roll out of the range of the grab. Snake's boost grab allows him to grab you no matter what for every character I've seen ,it just takes some ridiculous reflexes.

 

[SuSa]

IIRC Grab armour is not super armour although it acts exactly like that. I haven't been checking up on it's official name however so w/e

Also IIRC our grab is 11 frames? (needs to go check our frame data) and some get up attacks come out before that so the grab armour wouldn't help us there. We'd have to predict what our opponent is going to do. (If they attack to fast and roll a "we had to predict to grab them" or "we can't shield if we want to be able to grab them")

Also I have yet to see someone 0-death consistently with Snake.... in theory, yes it's possible. In practice - you rely on prediction for many of the tech chases. You also rely on the ones where you need to 'call them on it' for a few of them. Because if you start running and they do a get up attack... there went your follow up.