I have doubts about Ike being capable of competitive gameplay.

[VersatileBJN]

Of course it matters how good you are. Who you are? Not really. There's plenty of unknowns who can be very skilled.

and me bringing up Azen is just fine seeing as how if he, a player you consider to be mediocre, beats you your opinion isn't worth much.

Also, there must be something wrong with your comprehension if you can't read Radical's post and see why he believes Ike is good. The sonic comparison isn't needed to understand that. If it was, he wouldn't have posted it.

 

[Marthgreil]

Azen is mediocre? Please tell me 3 players off hte top of your head that you've fought in Brawl better than Azen at this point.

This topic is a joke. Ike will be up there when it's all said and done for all the reasons Radical gave

Kirk, but OMG! Kirk uses Ike. That's only one.

Also, it just means Azen is trying Ike for now.

Besides, Ike's UpB is not only usefull for trapping opponents, but it has signifigant knockback on the slam for whever is in range.

 

[Heretique]

Of course it matters how good you are. Who you are? Not really. There's plenty of unknowns who can be very skilled.

and me bringing up Azen is just fine seeing as how if he, a player you consider to be mediocre, beats you your opinion isn't worth much.

Also, there must be something wrong with your comprehension if you can't read Radical's post and see why he believes Ike is good. The sonic comparison isn't needed to understand that. If it was, he wouldn't have posted it.

Something is wrong with your comprehension if you think my skill matters one bit in this discussion. I could be the worst player in the world, what I say might still be true.

 

[Mr.Trite]

Guys, this isn't Melee, it's Brawl.

Ike will be fine :D

 

[LeTECK]

the thing with Ike is that any person that knows how to control a faster character can easily punish Ike, but in turn if Ike finds an opening, he can abuse that opening easily.

 

[Falconv1.0]

Like I said. It really doesn't matter whether Azen is good or not, show me ANY good Ike player and I'll be surprised.

I'm not saying these things because of speed, I'm saying it because of the shield system. A quick side step or perfect shield and you can just run up and punish Ike for using his fAir. I agree, Ike doesn't seem to be possible to be played aggressively, but how can one play defensively with Ike if your opponent has projectiles?

...It's like he's ignoring us.

There are good Ike players. Go ahead and ask actual pros, instead of wasting your time here ****it.

Your entire argument seems to be based on the idea that the Ike suer is a ****ing moron, and actually spams F-Smash. >_>

Jab is fast, forward tilt is good, aerial game is good, I don't know what else you need to hear. You just keep saying the exact same thing over and over.

And believe it or not, but generally, people with some ****ing skill know what the hell they're talking about, instead of just being bystanders, going off opinions without using any sort of logical thought because, lol, they've never been able to use any other character besides the noob friendly.

You know what, if Ike cant be used, i guess De De De is the worst ****ing character in the entire game. >_>

 

[Bit Cloud]

Actually, I find that with time, Ike gets better. An example is with my friends and I. I liked Ike, since every one of my friends said "Ike is garbage", so I decided to use Ike a decent amount (And the pimpin Gold outfit). Anyway, my friend plays Lucario, and at first, I could never beat him. After a while, while we were both getting better at Ike / Lucario, I started to beat him more and more. After time, you learn how to find the opening, and exploit it.

On the whole recovery issue, if you charge Side B from the beginning, you can make it on stage without grabbing the edge. I have not had a problem getting back on the edge, even when my friends come and try to intercept me. At the same time, you need to think of inventive new ways to recover. Mixing it up a little WILL help increase Ike's lifespan. If you keep using Aether to recover, someone will adapt and punish you. Hence, throw in a Quick Draw every once in a while.

All in all, I am just saying that Ike is a good character. Seems crappy at first, but if you give it time, and learn to read your opponent and adapt, you will become a force to be reckoned with, IMO.

 

[ama(m/t)]

sounds more to me like your friend sucks

 

[Heretique]

...It's like he's ignoring us.

There are good Ike players. Go ahead and ask actual pros, instead of wasting your time here ****it.

Your entire argument seems to be based on the idea that the Ike suer is a ****ing moron, and actually spams F-Smash. >_>

Jab is fast, forward tilt is good, aerial game is good, I don't know what else you need to hear. You just keep saying the exact same thing over and over.

And believe it or not, but generally, people with some ****ing skill know what the hell they're talking about, instead of just being bystanders, going off opinions without using any sort of logical thought because, lol, they've never been able to use any other character besides the noob friendly.

You know what, if Ike cant be used, i guess De De De is the worst ****ing character in the entire game. >_>

...It's like you're ignoring me.

Even his ftilt is punishable.

Also, Dedede is a lot faster than Ike as far as attacks go, so... I think nuff said.

Actually, I find that with time, Ike gets better. An example is with my friends and I. I liked Ike, since every one of my friends said "Ike is garbage", so I decided to use Ike a decent amount (And the pimpin Gold outfit). Anyway, my friend plays Lucario, and at first, I could never beat him. After a while, while we were both getting better at Ike / Lucario, I started to beat him more and more. After time, you learn how to find the opening, and exploit it.

On the whole recovery issue, if you charge Side B from the beginning, you can make it on stage without grabbing the edge. I have not had a problem getting back on the edge, even when my friends come and try to intercept me. At the same time, you need to think of inventive new ways to recover. Mixing it up a little WILL help increase Ike's lifespan. If you keep using Aether to recover, someone will adapt and punish you. Hence, throw in a Quick Draw every once in a while.

All in all, I am just saying that Ike is a good character. Seems crappy at first, but if you give it time, and learn to read your opponent and adapt, you will become a force to be reckoned with, IMO.

I never said Ike is a bad character, in fact he's quite good against casual players, but this whole discussion is about pro play and if he has a chance.

 

[ama(m/t)]

his ftilt is not punishable on block if properly spaced

 

[Rykoshet]

While I pretty much ate, breathed, and slept ike for the better part of 6 weeks (and I wouldn't have gotten remotley as fast with him if it werent for kirk taking the time out to explain my problems with him) I don't think I'm biased when it comes to the strengths and weaknesses of the character. I think when people keep mentioning ike's defensive/retaliatory strength it's just being promptly ignored when it's a very valid thing to bring up. I think people expect an ike player to be super aggressive out from the gate and typically it takes me somewhere midway through the first stock to kind of get out of that mindset myself. Any opening, any spacing as long as it's within range (hell, sometimes if it's not) even for half a second and you can seriously lay some significant hurt on your opponent when it comes to ike.

Granted, after playing a polar opposite like pit it feels much different to build up damage with the characters but playing a faster character just made it easier to carry over some good basic ideas with ike. People who sit there fast spamming his PPK without cancelling or taking into account the opponent's reaction on the first hit and Fsmashing left and right are honestly just not made for the character, the very same move concept could be applied to literally dozens of characters and actually work though so it's a matter of style. There are some obvious mismatches (like vs pit, and it's still doable anyway so meh) but then again the character that might be a mismatch for one might not be able to deal with another character too well (falco's strengths against a short front ranged character, a spacing reflector and a practically full range flinching proectile that can be spammed faster than pit's) so you kind of have to weigh your options.

As for dedede's attacks being much faster than ike's, literally the only thing dedede has on ike in speed is his grab (and it's technically not even speed, just the obvious range difference) , his uair and his dtilt. As for his ftilt being punishable, only by ranged characters, if you're doing ftilt at close enough range to eat a move after it then you should have just jabbed.

It took some serious time for me to pick up the speed I have now with ike and I still have quite a bit to learn with him every day, but I'm nowhere as slow with him as I was even 4-5 days ago, let alone a week, and my friends are all getting better at retaliating too so I know i'm not just imagining it. As for his being top tier or not, I guess we'll have to see as time progresses, but to claim ike isn't capable of being competitive is just as silly at this point, especially when he's gotten the biggest push pre NA release with people in general.

 

[BDawgPHD]

Since Heretique went to the trouble of explaining why he thinks Ike is in bad shape, it would be cool if you could explain why you think he's not (instead of just stating that he's not). Because, at this point, I pretty much agree with everything he said.

If you know of a way around all that recovery time, do tell. Otherwise, I don't know how you can justify calling Ike a tourney-wothy character.

Well, IMO you need to think of Ike as melee Ganondorf. Of course he's slow as hell, and you can't throw out attacks like most other characters, but you just need to be defensive. Everything can be punished to some extent. For projectile characters, you just need to close the distance and make projectile spammers go to plan B. For everyone else, you just need to have good spacing. Ike's jab/jab combo is pretty sexy. Also, his grab isn't too bad, although he doesn't have great range due to running speed like other characters. His fair is slow, but strong. His bair is much faster, and about as strong, and his nair isn't too bad. And his uair is like bowser's uair, but probably with more priority....just space it, and if the opponent airdodges through it....whatever, you forced them to do something, capitalize on it, or don't get owned.

You just need to be patient.

 

[solvalou]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqgrKz_N5G4

i think he'll do pretty well. forward-b is OP for continuing combos

 

[Rykoshet]

Reed is an absolutely awesome ike player but those people could have used half a brain to avoid a good 3/4 of those combos with just DI alone.

 

[BDawgPHD]

Reed is an awesome ike player but those people could have used half a brain to avoid a good 3/4 of those combos with just DI alone.

I was just gonna say that, he's pretty pimp, but a lot of that could have been avoided....I still give him major props for being a pimp.

 

[Falconv1.0]

...It's like you're ignoring me.

Even his ftilt is punishable.

Also, Dedede is a lot faster than Ike as far as attacks go, so... I think nuff said.



I never said Ike is a bad character, in fact he's quite good against casual players, but this whole discussion is about pro play and if he has a chance.

O_O

Wait...what? So, you really don't know that he is ALREADY BEING USED EFFECTIVELY BY VERY GOOD PLAYERS? Once again, LORD KNIGHT, KIRK, AZEN. >_>

How can you be doubtful of something that's already happening? That's like saying "I'm doubtful of us going to war" WHEN WE'RE ALREADY IN A WAR.

 

[Coldfront]

Does anyone have any links to any Lord Knight vids? I've seen everyone mentioned but him so far.

 

[Neoteric]

let me sum this up:

pro ike says he does lots of damage

antipro ike says he has bad recovery.


wait for the metagame to develop, christ.

 

[Hostility]

Since i actually have a tournament record I guess I'll pipe in here

I feel like right now ike is tournament viable, I can't really think if a matchup where he has absolutely no chance. Projectile campers alone will not beat you if you are good enough, and if you are smart with his recovery, you won't get gimped a lot. In order to win you have to predict people, space well, and don't get impatient. But if you know your character and all the matchups well, it's possible to do well in tournament with ike, at least for now.

 

[Heretique]

O_O

Wait...what? So, you really don't know that he is ALREADY BEING USED EFFECTIVELY BY VERY GOOD PLAYERS? Once again, LORD KNIGHT, KIRK, AZEN. >_>

How can you be doubtful of something that's already happening? That's like saying "I'm doubtful of us going to war" WHEN WE'RE ALREADY IN A WAR.

Once again, they're not that good. How can I be doubtful of something that's already happening? Oh yeah, pros are already emerging? Gimme a break.

 

[nitro-blazer]

Smash theory fails. Lets just wait and see what happens with the metagame.

Ike would be bottom tier in Melee, easily, btu this isn't melee, and the game is still developing. I agree he won't end up that great, but who knows? Lets stop this pointless argument and just watch what happens.

 

[NyTeStRiDeR]

Yesterday i had a hard time against toon link, but it was mostly about his b-air comboes than projectiles and the fact that it was DSF's toon link. It was more about the player than the character because DSF's snake beat me pretty bad as well

*btw......Good ike dittoes yesterday Hostility

 

[AlphaDragoon2002]

For the record Heretique, you were saying something about "show me where it's been said that Ken is maining Ike":

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=145668&page=6

First post on the page.

 

[ricey09]

I've played against a lot of people at a "competative" level and I main Ike. All this "easily punished" crap is bull****, unless your dumb enough to freakin spam your forward smash the whole time at high percents.

His NAIR and FAIR both have little lag when autocanceled allowing next-to instant jab combo upon finishing.

His dash attack is beastly, he not only has fast running speed but it lunges an extra 3 meters.

His quick draw allows for rediculously fast spacing.

Those you you bashing his eruption probably don't know how to use it, and treat it like roy's B.
His super armor frames as well as the rediculously high as well as surprisingly low hitbox make it a very good approach to edge guarding and/or ariel strikes. It provides a good kill move with SA frames.

His UAIR is pretty fast coming out...and kills.

only thing that is slow about him are his smash attacks, which you shouldnt be spamming anyways. Even so they arent easily punished because of the spacing it creates if an opponent shields. They also have crazy range.

speaking of range , his FAIR has rediculous range too.

So combined with his literally explosive power, I would say Ike is TOO fast. He definately has a place in competative gaming. I've played lots of competative players and I've yet to be disproved that Ike doesn't have a place in competative gaming. If you wish to prove me wrong or change my oppinion, PM me with your FC, I'll be using Ike.

 

[aquteen]

I am not here to argue and I respect other peoples oppinons but, when in a single post you bash azens skills in brawl and say that chillen, chu, and vidjo are all not very good it makes me wonder if you know what you are talking about.

 

[BDawgPHD]

Really? Where did he do that? I don't see it =/

EDIT: are you talking about the original poster? If so, then my bad for being a snooty prick XD i thought you were pickin a fight with the poster immediately before you, because he knows what he's talking about. The original poster is definitely a fathead.

 

[St. Viers]

People...wth is your problem? just wait, and give people time to actually get good at the game. Until then, respect other people's opinions.

A few points though:

If you assume the opponent is just going to PSheild every thing, why not assume the Ike player can too? that way you don't need to worry about camping

People aren't machines...they fall for some dumb ****. Case study=Azen. Even in melee he had a pretty simple style that to scrubs looked like a lot of lucky f-smashes.*

*I recognise that Azen's not that simple. just making a point.

Ike has immense range, which is one of the key factors in smash.

People aren't use to super armor or the new air-dodge game to really see how that would change things. I'm thinking that Ike's super armor is going to turn into a very useful tool later on (like Olimar's way of getting not gimped--DI high and use downB)

I'd say he'll be like ganon. Definately tournie viable, even if you will have a tough time winning major tournies. Excellent at owning noobs, and people who are even skilled.

 

[Osi]

I have had some minor doubts.... but I think he is going to do well at the competitive level. His nair has a huge radius, can combo, no landing lag, and a short start up. I've been doing well alternating my entry between nair and fairs to throw off the opponents timing. The running bair is nice for a KO attack also, but it can leave you a little open. He has some great tilts for chaining moves together, and I'm a big fan of his up B. I think ike will be fine with some decent mind games and spacing. It's only natural a character who does loads of KO moves at low % can be punished on the counter.

 

[Darkslash]

Doesn't Ike have Non Flinching Frames in his B moves? Sakurai already said that Aether can take damage but Ike cannot be knocked back. not sure about the other moves though

 

[Betaz]

Yes he does on Aether and Eruption...two of his B-Moves have those frames. Eruption can be a little tricky for me to get off though... (>.> for some reason)Eruptions SAF start as soon as Ike begins to bring down the blade.

 

[Hostility]

Yesterday i had a hard time against toon link, but it was mostly about his b-air comboes than projectiles and the fact that it was DSF's toon link. It was more about the player than the character because DSF's snake beat me pretty bad as well

*btw......Good ike dittoes yesterday Hostility

Yea they were good

 

[Deleted member]

I think ike is fine for competitive play, and I think heretique is the only person here who knows how to debate. lol.

 

[Heretique]

People...wth is your problem? just wait, and give people time to actually get good at the game. Until then, respect other people's opinions.

A few points though:

If you assume the opponent is just going to PSheild every thing, why not assume the Ike player can too? that way you don't need to worry about camping

People aren't machines...they fall for some dumb ****. Case study=Azen. Even in melee he had a pretty simple style that to scrubs looked like a lot of lucky f-smashes.*

*I recognise that Azen's not that simple. just making a point.

Ike has immense range, which is one of the key factors in smash.

People aren't use to super armor or the new air-dodge game to really see how that would change things. I'm thinking that Ike's super armor is going to turn into a very useful tool later on (like Olimar's way of getting not gimped--DI high and use downB)

I'd say he'll be like ganon. Definately tournie viable, even if you will have a tough time winning major tournies. Excellent at owning noobs, and people who are even skilled.

No doubt Ike can powershield too, but fast characters obviously have better shielding potential because they have less recovery after attacking. That's all I'm saying.

To the people that are all hot and bothered that I said Kirk and Azen aren't great--you're kidding yourself if you think they're pro material right now. Brawl has been out in NA for a week and you think the metagame has already been made? The more you pull out the "Ike is a great character for pro play because Kirk and Azen are good" card, the more it sounds like Ike really will not touch Brawl's metagame.

 

[Rykoshet]

Citing good players as of now as an example of ike's capabilities isn't foolish, however it is foolish to speak of the lacking metagame as of yet then speculate that a character is incapable of touching other characters off of that very same lacking metagame. At the very best it's a wash, you can stop trolling now.

 

[Falconv1.0]

Heritique, although you're not really flaming, you are on borderline trolling, providing no real argument that stands up against fact. Anyone who actually thinks Ike is so laggy he can be punished by any fast character is an idiot. No one should have trouble landing almost any attack that isn't a smash when it comes to Ike.

I usually LOVE to nub smash, but this feels like I'm shouting at nothing, because nothing Heritique says is ever much of an argument.

I'm done here, the debate is over.

 

[Heretique]

Citing good players as of now as an example of ike's capabilities isn't foolish, however it is foolish to speak of the lacking metagame as of yet then speculate that a character is incapable of touching other characters off of that very same lacking metagame. At the very best it's a wash, you can stop trolling now.

It's not foolish to speculate the metagame. If you're unwilling to use your head and try and look into the future, then you're welcome to leave.

Same with you, Falcon.

It's not even entirely just speculating metagame, it's an observation that almost every attack Ike does can be avoided and punished. This makes Ike a very defensive character naturally, but he has no projectiles, so that seems rather tough.

 

[Rykoshet]

It's not foolish to speculate the metagame. If you're unwilling to use your head and try and look into the future, then you're welcome to leave.

Same with you, Falcon.

It's not even entirely just speculating metagame, it's an observation that almost every attack Ike does can be avoided and punished. This makes Ike a very defensive character naturally, but he has no projectiles, so that seems rather tough.

The point is you cant have your cake and eat it too, you can't sit there and say people cant speculate his strengths due to lacking metagame then do the exact same thing in the next breath about his weaknesses. Wow, a move is punishable if you avoid it, do you want the nobel for that one? Hint, it applies to plenty if not all the characters in this game, even the more obviously well rounded/quick ones.

It doesnt help that one of the few things you did speculate/compare against you were flat out wrong on too.

 

[Falconv1.0]

**** HE SAID SOMETHING REAL BAD.

Believe it or not, he has attacks that move at decent speed. And quit saying direct opposite arguments in the same paragraph, it's annoying. >.<

*High fives Rykoshet

 

[Miller]

Theres a reason SBR is invitation only. This is one of the thousands of reasons.

 

[MetalFace]

The point is you cant have your cake and eat it too, you can't sit there and say people cant speculate his strengths due to lacking metagame then do the exact same thing in the next breath about his weaknesses. Wow, a move is punishable if you avoid it, do you want the nobel for that one? Hint, it applies to plenty if not all the characters in this game, even the more obviously well rounded/quick ones.

It doesnt help that one of the few things you did speculate/compare against you were flat out wrong on too.

Adding to that, ike has a very good priority and range. If the enemy shields, Ike's attacks should push him back quite a long distance, enough for Ike to recover. Ike DOES have some quick attacks, like Bair and the Grand Viper technique, and if spaced right, Ike wont be punished as much as if it were handled by unexpierenced hands. In my opinion ike has the material to not only go on a competitive level, but i believe that many a user of Ike's will go home with a prize.