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I have doubts about Ike being capable of competitive gameplay.

Koga

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 13, 2007
Messages
352
Beating Ike is all about not getting hit, however that's easier said then done.

alot of people say: ike will get punished alot

to this i say: So what?

For example, sure; meta Knight could combo Ike for five minuets, if Ike can get three lucky hits in, he's already made up the damage, and one well placed Dtilt kills MK at that point.

In reference to shielding: with Ike's range and power, you can only pheasably take one attack to the shield per stock, so you shield a quick draw, and then later you try to shield a jab combo and your shield breaks..... Fsmash........ do i need to explain anymore how shielding isn't effective vs Ike?
 

MetalFace

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 17, 2008
Messages
21
I see you're awaiting a post as to why ike is a good character, so I'll do my best.

Typically, when a character is too poor for competitive play, it's not a lack of strengths, but excessive weaknesses. Let's attack those first.

Ike has slow attacks: this is true, easily the slowest in the game. While they do take a long time in general, many of them have extended hitboxes that stay out a long time as well. These moves include upsmash, uptilt, upair, his A combo, nair, and fair, which are arguably his best attacks anyway. While it may seem limiting to use only some attacks in a game that has less than 20 attacks already, it is actually in Ike's benefit to use them as they stay out for a long time. The above listed attacks are also difficult to punish when combined with the other property of the attacks- the range. Smash has historically been a game in which range is superior to speed. For example, in Melee, marth won the majority of professionally hosted tournaments, despite that Fox, Falco, Sheik, and Falcon are faster than him. While many aspects of smash have chanced since the previous game, this is actually the opposite. Brawl rewards range even more than speed simply because there is a void of technical skill to overcome it. Ike has a combination of range, priority, and power that lasts on extended hitboxes, and the game simply lacks a means to remove that advantage from him. In effect, against most characters, even fast ones that are already acknowledged to be top tier material such as Metaknight, Ike can actually attack their attacks and pull an easy victory. Nintendo, when it took out most of the smash technical game, actually rewarded power characters over speed characters rather than the other way around.

Ike gets gimped: well, this one is debatable for a few reasons. Primarily, Ike is nearly impossible to edgehog. During ike's up B, he throws an invincible hitbox up to clear off the edge for him before following it, both of which together last longer than the edge invincibility required to perform the edgehog. While side B can be edgehogged, ike has 2 things going for him to avoid that: 1 DI is more pronounced in brawl, and the ike player can simply choose to DI towards the stage and up B in many instances instead, and 2 side B actually requires much less charge time than it looks, and I often personally use it to go over my opponent on the edge to land without any lag. Even so, if Ike has any recovery weakness, side B is it. The same could be said about standard edgeguarding, which is nearly impossible for any character as it is. Heavy characters in brawl do face a problem in that faster characters can simply do a combo move into a kill move, or proceed to combo a character past any hope of recovery off of the stage. Examples include Metaknight's upair to up B kill combo, or pit's arrow edgeguarding. While these may seem hopeless or Ike, a simple answer has not been experimented with enough, and that answer is just airdodge. Ike can DI towards his opponent and mash R/L to escape a surprising amount of combos that would otherwise KO him. Even so, after Ike air dodges a single attack, he will have enough time to up B to either the ground or to an edge, which is why DIing at the stage is so important. Air dodge to up B with DI towards the stage will usually allow Ike to live until a throw kills him, so it becomes character dependant. Against some characters, Ike will still be KOd by a backthrow under 140, scenerio dependant, but vs other characters without them, such as again Metaknight, Ike can easily live past 250%, which is probably much longer than Nintendo had initially expected.

Ike gets spammed: well, here I have no argument save to block them. No characters can really projectile abuse Ike indefinitely besides Pit, but Pit can also do this to much faster characters anyway. Lucas is another pain to deal with. In my opinion, the characters that spam Ike are probably his only counters.

Now, I'll focus on Ike's more hidden better qualities.

Ike can gimp: man, can he ever. Despite the immense difficulty of edgeguarding in brawl, Ike is probably one of the best at it. A few tools include the downtilt spike which usually kills at 0%, the downair spike, which usually kills after 20%, up B gimps from the edge, in which ike spikes the opponent on the way down and grabs the edge. If the opponent comes from anywhere other than within a 45 degree angle from the edge, Ike can fair them. When above the edge, if the fair is air dodged, ike can simply attack again. If below the edge, it's ok, because Ike can SH fair off, and if the opponent air dodges, Ike can procceed to 2nd jump bair as they come out of it before using up B and easily making it to the edge. The bair will usually stage spike, but if the opponent techs, they still get hit by up B as it goes up.

Ike kills at relatively low %: even if your opponent outplays you, it's ok, as you can still generally do half as well against most characters and still go about even with them. If the Ike player is as skilled as you, well, good luck.

Ike's pressure game: while Ike may have difficulty approaching the opponent, once the first hit is in, Ike can do a lot of things that require your opponent to screw up. They usually will though, for various reasons unless the opponent is familiar with your style. A good example is jab grab. Normally, jab would never combo to grab for Ike, but your opponent may hold shield just to avoid getting hit by the full combo. Another example is forward throw to regrab, since again the opponent is likely to hold the shield to avoid ragnell. Ike gets a lot of grabs this way. Ike can also do things like jab, turn around SH low bair, back into the jab combo to weaken the shield, simply because the game lacks the technical aspects to punish it. In general, the more creative Ike is during the actual fight, the more likely he is to land hits that really shouldn't hit. This is another flip side to previous games, where playing safe is generally the best way to play.

That about summarizes why Ike should be just fine for competitive play in my opinion. His weaknesses can be overcome for the most part, and his strengths can be magnified a great deal.

edit: for the record, I think all of ike's special moves aside up B are more or less useless and rely on your opponent to be stupid when they have no incentive to do so, unlike the previously mentioned tricks where at least blocking ike is reasonable. Same for his downsmash.
You stole those words from my lips... somewhat lol. This is what we should be talking about. How can Ike outwin his opponents. Really people, Ike has way more advantages than most give him credit. Ike has the ability to overwhelm like no other, with that massive range and hitbox. Ike sure would suck in melee, but brawl somehow backs him up. I believe that Ike has competitive material. The only problem would be the space animal in stages with no platforms, but there is always a way out.
 

Rose

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 29, 2005
Messages
327
Location
PA
Ike would be even more beastly (and possibly broken) if

1. His counter wasn't ****.
2. He could cancel his side-B charge (like Makoto's hayate in SF3S).
3. His first jab had more priority or coverage. The kick in AAA has more priority and can cancel **** jab cannot, but it would be nice if Ike had a Marth jab so he wouldn't have to waste shield approaching spammers and he could stuff other attacks with more ease.

Mow, I disagree with you in that Ike's side-B isn't useless. If it doesn't connect it ends nearly without lag, so there are a few options there. I will admit though that eruption is bad and only works against noobs who are unaware that it hits everywhere and has invincibility frames. And counter is obvious, slow, and weak.
 

BDawgPHD

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 1, 2007
Messages
751
Ike would be even more beastly (and possibly broken) if

1. His counter wasn't ****.
2. He could cancel his side-B charge (like Makoto's hayate in SF3S).
3. His first jab had more priority or coverage. The kick in AAA has more priority and can cancel **** jab cannot, but it would be nice if Ike had a Marth jab so he wouldn't have to waste shield approaching spammers and he could stuff other attacks with more ease.

Mow, I disagree with you in that Ike's side-B isn't useless. If it doesn't connect it ends nearly without lag, so there are a few options there. I will admit though that eruption is bad and only works against noobs who are unaware that it hits everywhere and has invincibility frames. And counter is obvious, slow, and weak.
if you hold A down it spams his jab, I don't know how that would affect things like priority, but it makes timing less of an issue.

His eruption is probably useful as an edgeguard, but in theory if you're falling it's better than timing your dair or airdodging if it's unanticipated, since it's so quick and has SAF.
 

XSilvenX

Smash Lord
Joined
May 29, 2007
Messages
1,166
Location
Brooklyn, New York
Ike would be even more beastly (and possibly broken) if

1. His counter wasn't ****.
2. He could cancel his side-B charge (like Makoto's hayate in SF3S).
3. His first jab had more priority or coverage. The kick in AAA has more priority and can cancel **** jab cannot, but it would be nice if Ike had a Marth jab so he wouldn't have to waste shield approaching spammers and he could stuff other attacks with more ease.

Mow, I disagree with you in that Ike's side-B isn't useless. If it doesn't connect it ends nearly without lag, so there are a few options there. I will admit though that eruption is bad and only works against noobs who are unaware that it hits everywhere and has invincibility frames. And counter is obvious, slow, and weak.
Counter is a situational move..it comes in handy...trust me. I'm not gonna put a vid up to show you..I'm just gonna say..like most situational moves. It comes in handy for dumb situations like a Lucario that likes to spam "b" ^_^ Oh how I love jumping over the first, countering the 2nd and hitting him with a counter hit due to a projectile. It's definitely not something you would want in your normal arsenal of attacks that comes out due to habit though....then it gets really stupid and predictable.

Eruption is not bad....not bad at all....another situational move. I can't say for now that there are DEFINITE uses for it but it could come in handy when your opponent has no choice but to cross paths with you.
 

AlphaDragoon2002

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 5, 2002
Messages
925
Location
Phoenix, AZ
NNID
AlphaDragoon02
I'll say Eruption is good as well. Great for when you're falling (for some reason, people just don't grasp that they're gonna eat it due to SAF and try to attack anyway), hits through platforms, and hits all around Ike.

Counter is less useful, due to the LAME startup so you can't twitch react to big attacks and own people like you could with Roy, but it has uses as well. Sonic spin attack spammers come to mind.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
I used to think eruption was good for edge guarding right before the opponent grabs the edge, but downtilt simply outclasses it, the spike is amazing.

Counter is just bad compared to marth/marth/roy in general. Of course it has situational uses, everything does sooner or later.

Mow, I disagree with you in that Ike's side-B isn't useless. If it doesn't connect it ends nearly without lag, so there are a few options there. I will admit though that eruption is bad and only works against noobs who are unaware that it hits everywhere and has invincibility frames. And counter is obvious, slow, and weak.
Ahh, but here you rely on your opponent to be stupid. While brawl lacks technical prowess, it relies on playing smarter for victories. While the stupidity of your opponent can be a substitute for your intelligence on relative terms, when your opponent's stupidity factor is removed, it becomes useless. Point in case, it is quite easy to make Ike do his extremely laggy slash by simply jumping in and blocking it. This is even worse overall, since in Brawl you can simply let go and choose a move to hit Ike with. In the event that you can't jump into him and shield, you can simply choose to go anywhere on the map that isn't directly in front of him, on the edge, behind Ike, etc. Or just shoot him. In theory, moving more quickly across the map is a good thing, but it is punished so harshly and easily it is simply not worth the risk of using vs anyone with talent. Perhaps if the game were not so defense-oriented you would have a stronger argument, but that's not the case.
 

XSilvenX

Smash Lord
Joined
May 29, 2007
Messages
1,166
Location
Brooklyn, New York
I used to think eruption was good for edge guarding right before the opponent grabs the edge, but downtilt simply outclasses it, the spike is amazing.

Counter is just bad compared to marth/marth/roy in general. Of course it has situational uses, everything does sooner or later.



Ahh, but here you rely on your opponent to be stupid. While brawl lacks technical prowess, it relies on playing smarter for victories. While the stupidity of your opponent can be a substitute for your intelligence on relative terms, when your opponent's stupidity factor is removed, it becomes useless. Point in case, it is quite easy to make Ike do his extremely laggy slash by simply jumping in and blocking it. This is even worse overall, since in Brawl you can simply let go and choose a move to hit Ike with. In the event that you can't jump into him and shield, you can simply choose to go anywhere on the map that isn't directly in front of him, on the edge, behind Ike, etc. Or just shoot him. In theory, moving more quickly across the map is a good thing, but it is punished so harshly and easily it is simply not worth the risk of using vs anyone with talent. Perhaps if the game were not so defense-oriented you would have a stronger argument, but that's not the case.

LOL That's funny you say that but I use QD all the time for movement..when the move doesn't hit anything the lag isn't that bad..it's barely punishable since you can just directly "AAA" combo straight out of it. Anyway the point is I barely get punished for it.... just don't be stupid about it and you won't get caught..it's not that hard. I don't see any risk in using QD to move across a stage faster...say I just knocked you far with a fair and I want to edgeguard you faster...why would I run when QD takes me there in about 3 seconds fully charged. If you meant to say using it to rush an opponent..well that's "punished harshly and easily". Just using it to move across the stage won't screw you over too much.

By the way Umbreon: Ike ditto me sometime
AIM "xsilvenx"
 

nitro-blazer

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 22, 2005
Messages
1,399
Location
Donkey Kong.
The thing with quick draw is, though, if you can space it well and use it unpredictably, you can do pretty much any standing attack out of a movement speed faster than his dash.

Though I can never space it well enough to get within grab range without getting the slash. Is it even possible?
 

Rose

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 29, 2005
Messages
327
Location
PA
Well played, Mow. I don't own brawl, but I can't believe that didn't occur to me.

Out of curiousity, how easy is it for people to jump out and take a hit from Ike side-B recovery to kill him?

And also, on what characters do you ever get d-tilt to hit?
 

Heretique

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 27, 2007
Messages
150
Well played, Mow. I don't own brawl, but I can't believe that didn't occur to me.

Out of curiousity, how easy is it for people to jump out and take a hit from Ike side-B recovery to kill him?

And also, on what characters do you ever get d-tilt to hit?
It's pretty easy to take the hit from Ike's side+B, especially once you hear it charging and you should be following him or edgeguarding anyway. If he charges it and you're near him, just hit him because if he releases he'll attack and die instantly.

Of course you can down tilt every character if they're there, but I can't say much for pro play. I know it takes very precise timing to down tilt Link's up+B before he automatically grabs the ledge--it might be a better idea to dair him.
 

Barret3B

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 14, 2004
Messages
27
Location
MD
Yea, its real easy to jump in front of him when hes trying to sweetspot. You have to condition your opponent into trying to punish you for going over the edge so they are too far away to edge guard you. As long as you DI right, you shouldn't be in the position where you have to side>b to sweetspot the edge until you already past 150.

Also, I don't think its too productive speaking of pro play when it hardly exist yet. You never know what people will discover, and if Melee is any indication, theres more than a few things out there for us to find. All we have to work with is the best players we have now.
 
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