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I have doubts about Ike being capable of competitive gameplay.

BDawgPHD

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 1, 2007
Messages
751
It's not foolish to speculate the metagame. If you're unwilling to use your head and try and look into the future, then you're welcome to leave.

Same with you, Falcon.

It's not even entirely just speculating metagame, it's an observation that almost every attack Ike does can be avoided and punished. This makes Ike a very defensive character naturally, but he has no projectiles, so that seems rather tough.
Honestly, Heretique, you're lucky I don't have a wii ;)

But yea....Ganondorf is slow as ****, but as metalface said, as long as you know how to space, hitting someone who shielded will have shield knockback and they'll slide back a bit, giving you a chance to recover from your lag. Ike has more or less the same shield knockback with his REALLY powerful attacks, plus range. Of course someone can spot dodge and power shield, and they'll be able to punish Ike.

But think about this...it's very difficult to start a combo on Ike....the worst that could happen is Dedede chaingrabbing him across the stage (to death, depending on the situation) or Falco chaingrabbing him to 50% (or death, very situational, though, depending on stage among other things). If someone tries to get a combo on Ike, they're likely to be punished for it. If not, they did....what....10-20% to him? That's not a huge deal.

By the way, I don't know what crackwhore version of smash you're playing, but you seem to forget one major dimension of the game - grabbing. Ike's grab is pretty good...it's not godly, but it's not yoshi's grab or link's grab. Worst case scenario is that he's on a big stage with no platforms, like Bridge of Eldin. This would make it difficult to approach due to gross projectile spam, although by no means impossible. Once Ike closes the distance, he can really do anything he wants, due to his range. Unfortunately, a lot of it can be shielded, or at worst power shielded or dodged. However, this is where grabbing comes in. Grabbing can only be dodged by spot dodging or jumping. The thing of it is, in the midst of a dash, Ike can either jump to aerial, dash attack, usmash, or grab....or maybe other things, if you're leet enough ;) Considering things like fox trotting and that uber reverse aerial thing, Ike has a lot of basic, but effective mindgames.

Of course, this is all theory, but this is the theory of pros.
 

aznxk3vi17

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 17, 2008
Messages
71
Location
Virginia
Ike is weird. He's one of the best punishers in the game, but is also one of the most punishable.

Against a camper who leaves no openings, Ike is sure to fall. With nothing left to punish, he is only left with a short grab, or shield pressuring (which can sometimes be shield grabbed).

However, most people are not perfect, and thus, one will find the openings, somewhere. Everybody makes mistakes.
 

xYz

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 6, 2007
Messages
1,984
Location
Orlando, FL
3DS FC
1049-0933-6834
Bro, u guys are all retarted....

Smart players + Ike = ****.

come play my ike.
brawl FC on the left.
 

BDawgPHD

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 1, 2007
Messages
751
Bro, u guys are all retarted....

Smart players + Ike = ****.

come play my ike.
brawl FC on the left.
can you put up a few videos? I need some pointers, and I don't got a wii, so I can't practice =/ I want to see a really good Ike, not one that ***** noobs :-P
 

BIG JK

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 21, 2008
Messages
2
can you put up a few videos? I need some pointers, and I don't got a wii, so I can't practice =/ I want to see a really good Ike, not one that ***** noobs :-P
do i know you sir?
if so its been a long time
 

VersatileBJN

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 10, 2003
Messages
560
Location
New Jersey
I always get the giggles when someone calls me retarTed

Yo, expect me a PM from me later for friend codes. I really wannat fight rykoshet, miller, falconv1, xyz, etc.
 

Rykoshet

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 1, 2008
Messages
2,225
Location
No really, I quit.
Sure, however I can only really play between 3AM and 2:30PM EST due to ISP issues until this thursday when I'm changing providers.

As for some vids of some ike play, like I said I still have quite a bit to learn but I think I'm coming along well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMMfq3HvP3U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cst6nq4vo7c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRfB3Msznjo

Unfortunately I lose the third one due to aether literally gyppijng me (probably was holding down and didnt realize it) but yeah

And since I'm saying that I'm learning I'll give a couple videos of me 2 weeks ago

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQRyDQ--jQk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqIVr6nFDSo



And then the week before that :( it's embarassing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYeGBbcAl4Y
 

Kilikan

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 10, 2008
Messages
104
Most of his moves take a bit of time to charge and his standard walk / run are slow sure; but if played correctly ( using his side B and his roll) he can be one of the fastest and most powerful characters in the game. His recovery, other players projectiles and the ability of the other player (aka knowing when to roll and them being able to attack first if Ike is not used properly) are the only weaknesses I see. I don't see how anyone can call him slow.
 

MetalFace

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 17, 2008
Messages
21
Ike IS slow, no doubt about that. But if played well, taking advantage of his speedy moves, Ike's slowliness won't show.

I don't have a wii, too, but i do play in a friend's house a lot. Ill try to upload vids to youtube.
 

FishkeeperTimmay!

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 12, 2006
Messages
673
Location
Pembroke, Ontario, Canada
My only fears of Ike nowaday's of his ability lie in the players who are guiding him. Marth... Ice Climbers... they were examples of how a character could crawl out of the lower tiers when good players pick them up. However, I think Ike is destined to be another Roy... picked up by widely the wrong kinds of players, who aren't really devoted to improving his game, but rather on winning with TEH POWA OF THE HULK SMASH!

Ike is a patient, powerful fighter, who needs a patient, smart player to control him in order to take advantage of his skill set. The vast majority of the players on Wifi aren't that. xD We'll only have to see as the meta develops, maybe some really good players will pick him up.
 

Heretique

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 27, 2007
Messages
150
First of all, I never said you shouldn't speculate on his metagame and that he WILL be a high tier character. You SHOULD do that, this is a debate topic. But none of you are doing that. You're just saying "but Azen is good, Kirk is good, wahh" when it's pretty obvious they're really not great because the metagame hasn't developed yet. Like I said before, if the CURRENT Azen and Kirk are "perfect Ike users", then Ike really is doomed.

Also, yes if you hold your shield up from attacks Ike will knock you back but not if you sidestep or power shield. I speculate that pros will have great defense, and then what can Ike do? Furthermore, someone said every character is punishable like how I'm saying Ike is, but they're really not. Ike has a long recovery time AFTER most of his attacks where he's wide open, and fast characters don't have that. Sure Dedede is slow, but he has more moves that recover faster.

Ike for sure has the longest recovery times after his attacks out of every character in Brawl.
 

xYz

Smash Lord
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1,984
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stop crying, ike ***** face.

his recovery is insane, and yes kirk/azen are very good ike's... mabye you noobs can't see this through youtube, but I centainly can. and the skills that are being shown in those matches are enough to own jsut about any other character, give it time... ike will be either high tier, or upper middle. I'm sure of it.
 

Radical Dreamer

Smash Ace
Joined
May 14, 2007
Messages
827
I don't know what to tell you.

The post I quoted myself from before was probably the best I could do. Why is showing how amazing some of Ike's moves are not helpful? Especially considering the mention of his Nair and Bair, both of which basically have no lag whatsoever?

I mean it's not like Captain Falcon players went for Falcon Punches all the time in Melee. They used L-canceled aerials as their staple approaches since they don't have much recovery time. Why can't Ike get by on his lagfree aerials?

Ike also probably has the best overall killing effectiveness in Brawl.

Also, it's foolish to say that Azen and Kirk are "not that good," unless you're going to claim that basically no one is good at Brawl because it's new and the metagame isn't really developed yet. The fact of the matter is, as of RIGHT NOW, they probably are among the best Brawl players.

EDIT: Made a ******** mistake: Azen and "Ike." Should be Azen and Kirk.
 

Heretique

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 27, 2007
Messages
150
I don't know what to tell you.

The post I quoted myself from before was probably the best I could do. Why is showing how amazing some of Ike's moves are not helpful? Especially considering the mention of his Nair and Bair, both of which basically have no lag whatsoever?

I mean it's not like Captain Falcon players went for Falcon Punches all the time in Melee. They used L-canceled aerials as their staple approaches since they don't have much recovery time. Why can't Ike get by on his lagfree aerials?

Ike also probably has the best overall killing effectiveness in Brawl.

Also, it's foolish to say that Azen and Ike are "not that good," unless you're going to claim that basically no one is good at Brawl because it's new and the metagame isn't really developed yet. The fact of the matter is, as of RIGHT NOW, they probably are among the best Brawl players.
Okay, so we have his nAir--it covers a wide range but nothing special compared to his other moves. It also doesn't kill, but it's nice. You can't approach everyone all the time with his nAir, especially against someone with projectiles or range. Then we have his bAir, which is great for opponents that are higher than you, but it's not an approaching move either, especially since it turns him back to the original direction he was facing after using it, so you can't link an A combo together after using it. And it's particularly tough to hit opponents that are on the same ground level as you if they're short (like Kirby). Ike also isn't the fastest moving character, so still even these moves are punishable.
 

Zero System

Smash Rookie
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Nov 29, 2007
Messages
18
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My happy place
from what ive found from playing with him, his attacks just arent practical and way to slow for any advanced character to get hit with.
 

FishkeeperTimmay!

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 12, 2006
Messages
673
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Pembroke, Ontario, Canada
Hard to hit a defensive opponent is right. If they power shield and spot dodge all day, your in a for a really long and hard fought fight.

Unless your opponent has a projectile, you shouldn't worry though. Ike can stand back and play defensively too. This is especially important versus Sonics and Marths.

Its the Pits, Space Animals and Toon Links that should scare you, as they can camp you all day and force you to move, which Ike IS NOT GOOD AT. No matter how much you might like him, you have to admit his approach game is subpar.
 

Heretique

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 27, 2007
Messages
150
Any move with lag is punishable, kthnxbai.
And Ike has the laggiest and thus most punishable moves, making him the most punishable character. So you think Ike is low tier huh? Well, sad to hear that, but I gotta say I agree.
 

Rykoshet

Smash Champion
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Mar 1, 2008
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No really, I quit.
Except you have yet to state how any of his moves are laggy aside from a comparison to dedede that was off by a mile and a half. Seriously, you can stop trolling now.
 

Heretique

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 27, 2007
Messages
150
Except you have yet to state how any of his moves are laggy aside from a comparison to dedede that was off by a mile and a half. Seriously, you can stop trolling now.
Do you own Brawl? If so, then please go turn it on and use Ike.

How am I supposed to explain how laggy Ike's moves are? Let me try: after you use a move, there's a period of time where Ike has to recover. For example, Ike's punch practically has no lag after it, but his forward smash does. That's comparing basically his quickest to slowest move. Unfortunately, almost all of his other moves are pretty laggy too, and that sounds unrealistic for the metagame.
 

nitro-blazer

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 22, 2005
Messages
1,399
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Donkey Kong.
Ike is the most punishable character, yes. However, like Ganondorf in Melee, he wouldn't really be approaching. Unlike Ganondorf, he's a lot more laggy. However, he has more range, and a disjointed hitbox.

I know he won't be high tier, sure. He'll be a viable counterpick character against common characters that don't have an easily spammed projectile. However. with characters like Pit, Falco, Toon link in the metagame, he won't be viable as a main character unless you know you won't be able to play them.

Assuming the ike player spaces correctly, even with a powershield most characters wouldn't be able to get him if he uses his F-air. If they don't powershield, no chance they'll be able to reach him.

Also, the new physics make it harder to force things like that. In Melee, you could dash dance out of his range and try to trick him to attack like that. IF Dash dancing was still in brawl, and it was still as fast as Melee, no doubt Ike'd be bottom of the barrel. Brawl is different though.

Still, it is too early to tell. I agree that he won't be high tier, but I doubt he'll be completely useless.
 

BDawgPHD

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 1, 2007
Messages
751
Ike is the most punishable character, yes. However, like Ganondorf in Melee, he wouldn't really be approaching. Unlike Ganondorf, he's a lot more laggy. However, he has more range, and a disjointed hitbox.

I know he won't be high tier, sure. He'll be a viable counterpick character against common characters that don't have an easily spammed projectile. However. with characters like Pit, Falco, Toon link in the metagame, he won't be viable as a main character unless you know you won't be able to play them.

Assuming the ike player spaces correctly, even with a powershield most characters wouldn't be able to get him if he uses his F-air. If they don't powershield, no chance they'll be able to reach him.

Also, the new physics make it harder to force things like that. In Melee, you could dash dance out of his range and try to trick him to attack like that. IF Dash dancing was still in brawl, and it was still as fast as Melee, no doubt Ike'd be bottom of the barrel. Brawl is different though.

Still, it is too early to tell. I agree that he won't be high tier, but I doubt he'll be completely useless.
this was actually in the back of my mind, but i didn't quite think to say it, and I didn't quite remember it when I said that the brawl engine helps Ike out a bit. Thanks for being a lot more specific and helpful. It's as you say, there are far less mind games involved due to lack of things like wavedashing and dash dancing.
 

nitro-blazer

Smash Lord
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Jun 22, 2005
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Donkey Kong.
I wouldn't say far less. Just different kinds. The new airdodge system makes tirangle jump mindgames much more prevalent, airdodge to sidestep, or Roll, and trying to out do your opponent there. Powershielding or sidestepping, or even rolling. whiffing aerials to try to bait a shieldgrab, etc. I'm sure there will be plenty of things that can be used, but dashdancing really did own the slow characters.
 

FishkeeperTimmay!

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 12, 2006
Messages
673
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Pembroke, Ontario, Canada
Okay, I was wrong. Ike CAN approach using Nair, as the zero lag makes for perfect follow ups. If they shield, you grab. if they spot dodge, you jab combo. Its wonderful. Throw in the Quick Draw to anything approach, and you have a solid game.

He just has the worst time with fast characters on flat stages. Sonic can run at you before you can establish yourself, Fox/Falco/Wolf will all use their blasters to keep you off balance. Those are the hardest matchups., but good counterpick stages like Shadow Moses Island and Yoshi's Island keep you close, yet give you extra platforms needed to avoid the spammer.
 

Rykoshet

Smash Champion
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Mar 1, 2008
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No really, I quit.
Do you own Brawl? If so, then please go turn it on and use Ike.

How am I supposed to explain how laggy Ike's moves are? Let me try: after you use a move, there's a period of time where Ike has to recover. For example, Ike's punch practically has no lag after it, but his forward smash does. That's comparing basically his quickest to slowest move. Unfortunately, almost all of his other moves are pretty laggy too, and that sounds unrealistic for the metagame.
Do you? You're comparing his fastest move to his slowest, ignoring plenty of wide ranged and powerful moves that lean further on the side of the former rather than the latter. Saying all of his moves are "pretty laggy" ignoring the range of each move (for example his front tilt could be considered to have a slow startup but it reaches about 3 character lengths from his body so punishing it at close range isn't practical). Secondly you compared him to at least 2 character specifically and, as mentioned, were flat out wrong about it. For the third time, you can stop trolling now.
 

RottenMango

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Messages
6
Ms. Cleo's Ike will sweep tourneys. Unforunatly Ike relies far to much upon prediction to be very competitive, hes just far to slow and his recovery is too easily gimped. IMO he is the roy of ssbb.
 

Nick Nasty

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 11, 2006
Messages
280
Location
Dover, DE
These are just my thoughts--I could be wrong, and I really hope I am.

Ike is far too slow to be a useable character in competitive (pro) matches. The fault isn't that his attacks start up slow, it's that they RECOVER slow. The only attacks that have alright recovery are his uTilt, fTilt, dTilt, bAir and of course his 3-hit A combo.

All his smash attacks have slow recovery and are very easily punished. That's not to say they don't rock, but a side step or perfect shield and you're wide open for counter attack.

Eruption is nice for occasional situations but again, it is easily punished.

Aether is a nice recovery move, but it's also easily punished. Spamming it on a ledge is just asking for you to be knocked off again at the top of your aether.

Quick Draw is virtually useless except maybe for spacing. When you're using it to recover, any good opponent will just hop in front of you and if you release and attack them, you're done for. (As you know, you can't perform any action after attacking from Quick Draw until you land) It can be used to catch your opponent off guard, but if it's shielded (and there's a high chance it will be) you have to recover from your slash, giving them plenty of time to punish you.

I don't have much to say about his Counter. The activation delay seems cumbersome but who knows, it could be used quite well.

Basically, with shield techniques alone I think Ike is the ultimate punishable character, thus giving him no spot in competitive gameplay and making him low tier.

I know it's early to make these judgements already, but it seems a bit obvious to me. I'd love to be proven wrong!

--

And before someone goes "but I pwn my brother with Ike all the time!" ... I'm talking about competitive professional level of gameplay. Ike is no doubt a noob killer, but does he have a place in skilled gameplay?
The recovery of his attacks in general are slow compared to alot of the characters in Brawl. However, as long as you are properly spacing your attacks most of the time, recovery shouldn't be an issue; unless your opponent is getting into your comfort zone 24/7.

His smash attacks are probably his most punishable moves, but again, this isn't an issue if you are spacing yourself. Also, if your opponent is sheilding as Ike's smash attack connects then he/she will probably not be able to punish you at all due to the massive sheild stun that occurs. Foward smash would be a great example.

Aether can punished, but from what I've seen, is hard to punish when the Ike user is sweepspotting correctly. I could be wrong, but I'm just going on what I've seen. Not to mention the fact that the move has SAFs in the beginning. The Ike user can occasionally time Aether so that the SAFs activate right before their foe can edgeguard them. So unless someone can properly time their intercept, punishment is even more unlikely.

QD can be used for attacking, but as you stated earlier, is primarily used for spacing. Usually, when Ike uses QD as a recovery it doesn't get punished because of the fact that the move comes out too fast. You can either come back to the stage above your foe, or just sweepspot the ledge. I'm not saying that it can't be punished, but when the move is used correctly, can be tricky to punish. Now if we're talking about a character that has a projectile and can just intercept Ike while he's charging QD or a character w/a killer edgeguarding game (like MK), that's a whole different story.

I agree w/Counter for the most part.

The sheild techniques does give Ike much better options (such as upsmash to punish dodgerolling). In fact, sheild techniques are probably one of the biggest factors in this game. However, spacing is another big factor in this game. Ike has considerable range for a character that doesn't have a projectile. He is a character that rewards his user through smart play. Smart players are the ones who wins tourneys for the most part since techskill can only go so far. So I think that Ike will be capable of competitive play.

You have rights to make early judgements based on your observations. In fact, that is an aspect all players make early in a metagame's development. I hope that this changes your mind, but if it didn't, at least I gave it a shot.
 

Heretique

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 27, 2007
Messages
150
The recovery of his attacks in general are slow compared to alot of the characters in Brawl. However, as long as you are properly spacing your attacks most of the time, recovery shouldn't be an issue; unless your opponent is getting into your comfort zone 24/7.

His smash attacks are probably his most punishable moves, but again, this isn't an issue if you are spacing yourself. Also, if your opponent is sheilding as Ike's smash attack connects then he/she will probably not be able to punish you at all due to the massive sheild stun that occurs. Foward smash would be a great example.

Aether can punished, but from what I've seen, is hard to punish when the Ike user is sweepspotting correctly. I could be wrong, but I'm just going on what I've seen. Not to mention the fact that the move has SAFs in the beginning. The Ike user can occasionally time Aether so that the SAFs activate right before their foe can edgeguard them. So unless someone can properly time their intercept, punishment is even more unlikely.

QD can be used for attacking, but as you stated earlier, is primarily used for spacing. Usually, when Ike uses QD as a recovery it doesn't get punished because of the fact that the move comes out too fast. You can either come back to the stage above your foe, or just sweepspot the ledge. I'm not saying that it can't be punished, but when the move is used correctly, can be tricky to punish. Now if we're talking about a character that has a projectile and can just intercept Ike while he's charging QD or a character w/a killer edgeguarding game (like MK), that's a whole different story.

I agree w/Counter for the most part.

The sheild techniques does give Ike much better options (such as upsmash to punish dodgerolling). In fact, sheild techniques are probably one of the biggest factors in this game. However, spacing is another big factor in this game. Ike has considerable range for a character that doesn't have a projectile. He is a character that rewards his user through smart play. Smart players are the ones who wins tourneys for the most part since techskill can only go so far. So I think that Ike will be capable of competitive play.

You have rights to make early judgements based on your observations. In fact, that is an aspect all players make early in a metagame's development. I hope that this changes your mind, but if it didn't, at least I gave it a shot.
This made me a little more hopeful, but I just don't quite see him as a better char than the rest for the metagame. What kind of strategies would be used against fast characters and projectile users in the metagame? In any case, I hope you're right, I hope I see some amazing Ike players in the future.

Rykoshet: Honestly I don't feel like responding to you anymore. You're the troll here, and you're welcome to leave.
 

Rykoshet

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No really, I quit.
You never responded to me in the first place, you just kept repeating the same 3 phrases over and over (pretty laggy [I mean just compare his jab to his front smash, I mean I know that's his fastest and slowest options but the rest of the moves fall somewhere in the middle! Stunning concept if I say so myself], metagame [which doesnt exist so you cant use it to credit ike but I sure can use it to discredit him], he's slower than dedede [he's not]) and said "Don't agree? Leave", just as you did now. I'll come and go as I please, but you're more than welcome to press rewind and play on that pre-recorded message you've got going.
 

Heretique

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 27, 2007
Messages
150
You never responded to me in the first place, you just kept repeating the same 3 phrases over and over (pretty laggy [I mean just compare his jab to his front smash, I mean I know that's his fastest and slowest options but the rest of the moves fall somewhere in the middle! Stunning concept if I say so myself], metagame [which doesnt exist so you cant use it to credit ike but I sure can use it to discredit him], he's slower than dedede [he's not]) and said "Don't agree? Leave", just as you did now. I'll come and go as I please, but you're more than welcome to press rewind and play on that pre-recorded message you've got going.
No, I made a comparison between his fastest and slowest moves, but all the rest of the moves lean more towards the slowest move.

Also, Dedede has a lot more faster moves. And a projectile.

Lastly, this thread is metagame speculation.

I got it. You disagree. But that's all I hear from you, so I have nothing else to say.
 

Rykoshet

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No really, I quit.
No, I made a comparison between his fastest and slowest moves, but all the rest of the moves lean more towards the slowest move.
Just because you keep saying it doesnt mean it's true, it's a rather even progression along the scale from fast to slow, with the faster ones including his back air, his up tilt, his neutral air, his down smash, and his fair, then the slower ones being his down air, his ftilt, and his dtilt and up smash hanging somewhere in the middle. Eruption is a retaliatory move, you're never going to use it when you know the person is free to move around, the super armorand goading someone into hitting you and payiong for it are the operative functions of using it.

As for dedede's moveset, their ftilts are identical speed, their up smashes are identical (ike's might actually be faster but I dont want to blindly side with one as I play both), their fsmashes are identical, Ike's back air is just as fast if not faster and has better range. Dedede's only faster moves in comparison are his up air, his down tilt, and his down air. Projectile and grab range advantage are to dedede but "faster moves", if you hit rewind enough you might start believing it.
 

Heretique

Smash Apprentice
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Dec 27, 2007
Messages
150
Just because you keep saying it doesnt mean it's true, it's a rather even progression along the scale from fast to slow, with the faster ones including his back air, his up tilt, his neutral air, his down smash, and his fair, then the slower ones being his down air, his ftilt, and his dtilt and up smash hanging somewhere in the middle. Eruption is a retaliatory move, you're never going to use it when you know the person is free to move around, the super armorand goading someone into hitting you and payiong for it are the operative functions of using it.

As for dedede's moveset, their ftilts are identical speed, their up smashes are identical (ike's might actually be faster but I dont want to blindly side with one as I play both), their fsmashes are identical, Ike's back air is just as fast if not faster and has better range. Dedede's only faster moves in comparison are his up air, his down tilt, and his down air. Projectile and grab range advantage are to dedede but "faster moves", if you hit rewind enough you might start believing it.
This is laughable because when you perform his back aerial and quick fall, there's a recovery time to turn around, and if you don't quick fall well you have to wait for him to turn around. Sure the move is great and fast, but can you even use it twice in one double jump?

Just off the top of my head, moves that Dedede has that are faster than Ike's: dair, uair, fair, bair, nair, dtilt, utilt. Everything else is pretty much the same speed.
 

Nick Nasty

Smash Journeyman
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Dec 11, 2006
Messages
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Dover, DE
This made me a little more hopeful, but I just don't quite see him as a better char than the rest for the metagame. What kind of strategies would be used against fast characters and projectile users in the metagame? In any case, I hope you're right, I hope I see some amazing Ike players in the future.

Rykoshet: Honestly I don't feel like responding to you anymore. You're the troll here, and you're welcome to leave.
I agree w/you not seeing him as a better character than the rest of the metagame. I think that the faster, floaty, and camping characters will have a considerable advantage over Ike. However, if the person playing Ike knows what they're doing and have Budda-like patience, then I think that Ike can become a major force in the metagame. With the sheild techniques, spacing and mindgames, Ike could punish every mistake that these characters make with great efficientcy. He probably won't be as big of a force as some of the other cast, but one that can't be ignored.

As for strategies against fast characters, the main thing that I think will be used is baiting and punishing. Ike can't compete w/a faster character in speed, but if the opponent tries to trade blows w/him, they'll definitely be in for a nasty surprise. Also, as long as Ike can space effectively, he'll be able to bait faster characters even better. Now this all depends on the person playing the faster character as well. If the person is as patience and effecient as a player as the Ike user then that person will most definitely be a harder opponent. They could just as easily bait Ike because of the slow recovery of his moves and punish him just as harshly. All in all, I think it's going to depend more on the actual playstyles of both the Ike user and the faster character user than just the character themselves.

As for strategies against camping characters, there's not that many options that Ike has open to him. He could try to bait projectiles, but if the camper is smart, he/she will usually not fall for it. I'm thinking that the main strategy here would be to get in that camper's comfort zone as much as possible so that Ike can get in some decent damage. Camping characters will be much more difficult for Ike than just characters w/speed, but as I stated earlier, the outcome of these battles would depend on the users of the characters. I also think that stage pick would also heavily influence the result (such as playing on Norfair where Ike will have a harder time dealing w/campers than on a neutral stage like FD)

I also hope that we see some amazing Ike players in the future. When the metagame starts to develop even more, we'll definitely see where Ike stands.
 

BDawgPHD

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 1, 2007
Messages
751
...this thread is metagame speculation.
QFT. Ironically, this is about the only thing I can QFT out of what you've said this whole time ;)

This thread is to discuss Ike's viability in competitive play. So it doesn't help when you repeat yourself multiple times, even though we're already on the next point ;)
 

xLordCJx

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jun 27, 2007
Messages
14
I unfortunately don't have a Wii yet so I'm stuck playing Brawl every once in a while when my friend comes over, but from the most that I've played of it, I've found that Ike does not work with most of my tactics that I've tried to transfer from Melee. He's not a combo character. He's a dodge, plan, outsmart, attack character. Easily one of the strongest characters in the game, playing Ike is simply hit the opponent, and they're done. I've learned with Ike that if you plan on getting a hit in, you need to bide your time until you see and opening.

Me and my friends have a joke about that.

"How do you beat Ike?"
"Don't get hit."
 

St. Viers

Smash Champion
Joined
May 15, 2006
Messages
2,409
Location
Boston MA
...I'm pretty sure ike's u-tilt is faster than D3's..... Ike's is faster than people give it credit for.

And as Ike has a larger range on all his attacks (minus grab), starting lag isn't as much as a problem. Kinda like ganon's f-air in melee, or docs punch. If you space is right it isn't a bad attack. Especially ganons.
 

Heretique

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 27, 2007
Messages
150
...I'm pretty sure ike's u-tilt is faster than D3's..... Ike's is faster than people give it credit for.

And as Ike has a larger range on all his attacks (minus grab), starting lag isn't as much as a problem. Kinda like ganon's f-air in melee, or docs punch. If you space is right it isn't a bad attack. Especially ganons.
You may be right about the spacing.

Dedede's up tilt is a quick headbutt standing on his hammer, it's for sure faster than Ike's. Ike's is better of course, but still.
 

wodan46

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 13, 2008
Messages
45
Ike will get punished a lot. That simply doesn't matter, because if Ike gets 1 attack to hit for every 3 the opponent does, Ike will win, cause of his ridiculous power.

For Ike to do well, he has to be very patient and play defensively.

Note that while virtually all of his moves have lag at the end, his best moves have relatively little lag at the start, large reach, or both. Utilt, Usmash Fair, Dair, Jab combo and Down B stand out.

For that matter, all of Ike's B moves are good, and are integral for Ike to be fully effective.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
I see you're awaiting a post as to why ike is a good character, so I'll do my best.

Typically, when a character is too poor for competitive play, it's not a lack of strengths, but excessive weaknesses. Let's attack those first.

Ike has slow attacks: this is true, easily the slowest in the game. While they do take a long time in general, many of them have extended hitboxes that stay out a long time as well. These moves include upsmash, uptilt, upair, his A combo, nair, and fair, which are arguably his best attacks anyway. While it may seem limiting to use only some attacks in a game that has less than 20 attacks already, it is actually in Ike's benefit to use them as they stay out for a long time. The above listed attacks are also difficult to punish when combined with the other property of the attacks- the range. Smash has historically been a game in which range is superior to speed. For example, in Melee, marth won the majority of professionally hosted tournaments, despite that Fox, Falco, Sheik, and Falcon are faster than him. While many aspects of smash have chanced since the previous game, this is actually the opposite. Brawl rewards range even more than speed simply because there is a void of technical skill to overcome it. Ike has a combination of range, priority, and power that lasts on extended hitboxes, and the game simply lacks a means to remove that advantage from him. In effect, against most characters, even fast ones that are already acknowledged to be top tier material such as Metaknight, Ike can actually attack their attacks and pull an easy victory. Nintendo, when it took out most of the smash technical game, actually rewarded power characters over speed characters rather than the other way around.

Ike gets gimped: well, this one is debatable for a few reasons. Primarily, Ike is nearly impossible to edgehog. During ike's up B, he throws an invincible hitbox up to clear off the edge for him before following it, both of which together last longer than the edge invincibility required to perform the edgehog. While side B can be edgehogged, ike has 2 things going for him to avoid that: 1 DI is more pronounced in brawl, and the ike player can simply choose to DI towards the stage and up B in many instances instead, and 2 side B actually requires much less charge time than it looks, and I often personally use it to go over my opponent on the edge to land without any lag. Even so, if Ike has any recovery weakness, side B is it. The same could be said about standard edgeguarding, which is nearly impossible for any character as it is. Heavy characters in brawl do face a problem in that faster characters can simply do a combo move into a kill move, or proceed to combo a character past any hope of recovery off of the stage. Examples include Metaknight's upair to up B kill combo, or pit's arrow edgeguarding. While these may seem hopeless or Ike, a simple answer has not been experimented with enough, and that answer is just airdodge. Ike can DI towards his opponent and mash R/L to escape a surprising amount of combos that would otherwise KO him. Even so, after Ike air dodges a single attack, he will have enough time to up B to either the ground or to an edge, which is why DIing at the stage is so important. Air dodge to up B with DI towards the stage will usually allow Ike to live until a throw kills him, so it becomes character dependant. Against some characters, Ike will still be KOd by a backthrow under 140, scenerio dependant, but vs other characters without them, such as again Metaknight, Ike can easily live past 250%, which is probably much longer than Nintendo had initially expected.

Ike gets spammed: well, here I have no argument save to block them. No characters can really projectile abuse Ike indefinitely besides Pit, but Pit can also do this to much faster characters anyway. Lucas is another pain to deal with. In my opinion, the characters that spam Ike are probably his only counters.

Now, I'll focus on Ike's more hidden better qualities.

Ike can gimp: man, can he ever. Despite the immense difficulty of edgeguarding in brawl, Ike is probably one of the best at it. A few tools include the downtilt spike which usually kills at 0%, the downair spike, which usually kills after 20%, up B gimps from the edge, in which ike spikes the opponent on the way down and grabs the edge. If the opponent comes from anywhere other than within a 45 degree angle from the edge, Ike can fair them. When above the edge, if the fair is air dodged, ike can simply attack again. If below the edge, it's ok, because Ike can SH fair off, and if the opponent air dodges, Ike can procceed to 2nd jump bair as they come out of it before using up B and easily making it to the edge. The bair will usually stage spike, but if the opponent techs, they still get hit by up B as it goes up.

Ike kills at relatively low %: even if your opponent outplays you, it's ok, as you can still generally do half as well against most characters and still go about even with them. If the Ike player is as skilled as you, well, good luck.

Ike's pressure game: while Ike may have difficulty approaching the opponent, once the first hit is in, Ike can do a lot of things that require your opponent to screw up. They usually will though, for various reasons unless the opponent is familiar with your style. A good example is jab grab. Normally, jab would never combo to grab for Ike, but your opponent may hold shield just to avoid getting hit by the full combo. Another example is forward throw to regrab, since again the opponent is likely to hold the shield to avoid ragnell. Ike gets a lot of grabs this way. Ike can also do things like jab, turn around SH low bair, back into the jab combo to weaken the shield, simply because the game lacks the technical aspects to punish it. In general, the more creative Ike is during the actual fight, the more likely he is to land hits that really shouldn't hit. This is another flip side to previous games, where playing safe is generally the best way to play.

That about summarizes why Ike should be just fine for competitive play in my opinion. His weaknesses can be overcome for the most part, and his strengths can be magnified a great deal.

edit: for the record, I think all of ike's special moves aside up B are more or less useless and rely on your opponent to be stupid when they have no incentive to do so, unlike the previously mentioned tricks where at least blocking ike is reasonable. Same for his downsmash.
 
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