I disagree with how 3.5 approached balance.

[_A1]

We have to give 3.5 some time before saying that spacies will dominate.

On a side note, if there had to be distinctly best characters(since there always is), why not spacies? They are easily the most beatable out of all the best characters of every smash game. Heck, Melee Falco has SEVEN even matchups.

 

[PootisKonga]

On a side note, if there had to be distinctly best characters(since there always is), why not spacies?

Sorry, but I'll need you to stop right there

You don't just leave characters the best just because it's been done

 

[_A1]

Sorry, but I'll need you to stop right there

You don't just leave characters the best just because it's been done

I'm only saying that it's probably the closest to perfect balance to have spacies at the top rather than characters like Mewtwo for example.

 

[mimgrim]

3.5 was a design patch, I agree on that.

The question is, does Fox or Falco or Wolf fit into that design. I think in terms of actual game balance of 3.5 Falco and Wolf are fine, Fox is still absurd in that regard though. However in terms of the design shift 3.5 took? All 3 do not fit. Their projectiles are clearly a cut above all the other projectiles now, I think these 3 characters are now the only character with a cancleable projectile now. They have a great neutral, punish, offensive, and defensive game. They have a Shine, which is all kinds of stupid in and of itself. You can claim they get punished hard but then when you realize that most every other character gets punished just as hard without having as many options as they do... Then their offstage... Fox and Wolf both have a decent offstage because they have many mix-up options plus good distance on their recovery and Falco also has the mix-ups, but falls short on the distance. I'm sorry but if you think they are good design then I'm going to think you are crazy.

 

[_A1]

And yet despite everything absurd about Melee Falco he has 7 even matchups.

 

[mimgrim]

Do you even read? ._.

 

[_A1]

Spacies almost always edgeguard on stage/at the ledge, not offstage. In PM, you can't really say spacies are solidly above everyone else; look at 3.02. Their camping is nerfed(thank goodness) and their approaches aren't as safe as in Melee because other characters have better ways to answer them. With nerfs and just being in the harsher PM environment makes the spacies' designs more justified here than in Melee.

 

[PootisKonga]

3.02 is gone due to all of the jank. Bringing that up right now is meaningless

 

[mimgrim]

This isn't 3.02 anymore. In 3.02 they were fine. But this isn't about 3.02. This is about 3.5 where it took a change in design goals and nerfed the characters that were even worse then Spacies but Spacies went from 3.02 to 3.5 mostly unchanged. Yipee Fox kills 10% later with Usmash, not a big deal, and got a buffed recovery. Falco got a change to Dair but that only serves to make his combos tighter and doesn't actually change anything and got a buffed recovery. Wolf got the most changes but most of it was getting rid of jank, excluding the jank of Shine anyway. The harsher PM environment doesn't really exist in 3.5 due to the design changes, not to mention the stage dynamic in Project M and how Spacies benefit greatly from it.

The ONLY justification for their design is because of Melee. That's it. But, in my opinion, that is a horrible justification.

 

[MegaMissingno]

3.5's nerfs were pretty heavy, but that's because 3.5 was a design patch, not a balance patch. They aimed to err on the side of too much nerfs, rather than previous patches erring on the side of too much buffs. If characters are now below spacies as a result, they can be carefully buffed back up until they match that level.

 

[Soft Serve]

And yet despite everything absurd about Melee Falco he has 7 even matchups.

What
um... What? I mean I guess if you count 55-45 being too even to count
He slightly beats fox, beats shiek 60/40 at worst, wrecks falcon, beats ICs, beats the rest of mid tier, and goes roughly even with Peach/puff simply because they are the only characters who dont have to put up with lasers because they dont have to stay grounded, and he goes even with marth because marth has better movement+low dash animation that makes power shielding easier+he should always ToD falco off one clean conversion

Where you do get 7? are you counting the Ditto? If I'm being generous I could say he goes even with Fox/Puff/Marth and other falcos. If you think falco goes even with everyone in the top 8 then you are just wrong, sorry :/ You can't have even/losing MU's when you control space and neutral for little commitment like that.


Melee has and can definetly deal with spacies, because as a whole we count "melee" as a competitive title to be the top 8+pika/samus/ganon. Melee can deal with spacies because the top characters are the only ones that can actually deal with them. If marth wasn't in Melee then the game would be much worse.

Just because we can deal with spacies being the best in Melee doesn't mean PM should have to. I'm all for hitting fox/falco's tech rolls and recovery landings, I think that'd be a really healthy change for them tbh.

 

[Rizner]

3.5's nerfs were pretty heavy, but that's because 3.5 was a design patch, not a balance patch. They aimed to err on the side of too much nerfs, rather than previous patches erring on the side of too much buffs. If characters are now below spacies as a result, they can be carefully buffed back up until they match that level.

As a design patch, wouldn't it have been the time to design spacies to fit in the environment as well? You can't buff everyone to the spacie level, then say that the design shouldn't be to buff everyone up to that, and when you redesign just recreate the initial problem. Right now if they buff everyone to meet spacies again we're just going back to 3.02, with a few character exceptions (ganon, zelda, others who actually play different and don't just have some number changes)


edit: If I were to change spacies, I'd remove their lasers with a different option, add maybe 5-10 frames to landing lag of up b, and make shine have a delay on jump cancel (although the idea of jump cancel removed when hitting a shield is intriguing -- maybe instead of removing it completely just modifying it in some way so you have a longer time before you can jump cancel it, or limit the options possible after a jump cancelled shine so there is a risk to just going in whenever)

 

[VinceX]

Wait, @ Soft Serve are you talking about Melee Falco or Falcon?

 

[_A1]

@ mimgrim 3.02 spacies were fine when 3.5 spacies aren't? This turned from design issues to tier issues in your case.

@ Soft Serve Falco wrecking Falco... it's a mirror match.
Falco is even with Fox, Shiek, Marth, Jiggs, Peach, ICs, and Samus in Melee. 7 excluding himself.
Can't have even matchups because Falco has control of neutral? Hilarious. HugS thinks Falco LOSES to Samus. If you study that matchup it's not far-fetched.

 

[GP&B]

Falco wrecking Falco... it's a mirror match.

My guess is that this is a typo because in the case of Falco:Falcon this is absolutely true.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

No dude Falco destroys Falco.

It's like no matter what Falco does, Falco always ends up winning. I might honestly go so far as to call it an 80-20.

 

[mimgrim]

@ mimgrim 3.02 spacies were fine when 3.5 spacies aren't? This turned from design issues to tier issues in your case.

Seriously. Do you even read? .-.

 

[Binary Clone]

On a side note, if there had to be distinctly best characters(since there always is)

Why hasn't anybody talked about this?

Because the goal is to not have distinctly best characters. "Well, it's inevitable, so **** it, just give up and leave it" is not a valid argument in the slightest.

If someone is distinctly the best, we should examine why and figure out what changes can be made to further balance the cast, especially in a beta game.

 

[Phaiyte]

Yeah man, I mean remember that version where Fox was a totally reasonable character only barely better than other reasonable characters? They just wouldn't stop complaining.

Oh wait that ****ing version doesn't exist.

If he's sooooo much better than the whole cast than why is he STILL not winning pm tournaments consistently.

 

[Phaiyte]

From my point of view, Fox (and maybe 2-3 other characters, including other spacies) has all of those traits -- he still has more options, approaches and follow ups without commitment or creativity when compared to the rest of the cast. Do you think that's an ok thing, or do you not agree with that sentiment?

Welcome to every rushdown character in every fighting game ever. "Creativity" is also mostly a bull**** concept. Every character has optimal setups for every opponent at every %, and there is no arguing that. Anything different is less than optimal and therefore superfluous. Your movement options and attacks aren't going to suddenly change properties mid match and make you have to react to things you haven't had to before.

 

[PootisKonga]

Welcome to every rushdown character in every fighting game ever. "Creativity" is also mostly a bull**** concept. Every character has optimal setups for every opponent at every %, and there is no arguing that. Anything different is less than optimal and therefore superfluous. Your movement options and attacks aren't going to suddenly change properties mid match and make you have to react to things you haven't had to before.

Yes, because everyone is going to know every type of approach against every character at every percent.

Why should spacies get all of these options plus their great defensive abilities just because they're the "rushdown" characters?
No good approach should have no commitment anyway.

Edit: The above sounds vague.. A good approach should have as little commitment as possible, but it can't be completely without or else it gets overpowering

 

[Ace55]

If he's sooooo much better than the whole cast than why is he STILL not winning pm tournaments consistently.

Because the Fox got outplayed by a better player?

Who would you put on Fox's level Phaiyte?

 

[Ningildo]

If he's sooooo much better than the whole cast than why is he STILL not winning pm tournaments consistently.

Because the people playing spacies are getting outplayed by the players of the other, no-skill characters.

It's because the other characters have jank and spacies have such a tough time playing against it due their ****ty neutral, horrible kill options, lack of recovery mix-ups, few effective combos and combo set ups. It's not due a lack of MU experience or the inability/stubborness to learn those 30+ MUs when you come from a game that only has 10 relevant ones at best.

You're right, Phaiyte. We're all just scrubs. Spacies got nerfed in every patch going from shine losing invincebility to Usmash killing 10% later to laser decay. Some of the other characters didn't get more nerfs in 3.5 then the spacies did in their entire PM run or got redesigned. None of the characters but spacies got their recovery nerfed, which is just insulting to the Melee crowd.

By the way, Phaiyte. Since we're all scrubs but you, could you show us how to beat spacies if they're so easy to beat? I'm sure since you're so godlike, that beating a high level spacie player should be a cakewalk.

Spoiler

But in all seriousness, **** the people saying spacies got nerfed HARD in pm when they got barely changed from Melee. That's ignorant and insulting to the mains of the load of characters that DID get nerfed significantly. Props to you if you got the sarcasm prior to reading this. Also tell me why spacies avoid the nerfbat when everyone else didn't. Really, why?

 

[Ace55]

Also tell me why spacies avoid the nerfbat when everyone else didn't. Really, why?[/COLLAPSE]

Because they are two iconic characters from the game Project M is based on, and thus the PMDT have so far chosen to leave them mostly intact (which I support). And honestly, Falco is fine now imo, it's just Fox who's the problem.

 

[Rizner]

Welcome to every rushdown character in every fighting game ever. "Creativity" is also mostly a bull**** concept. Every character has optimal setups for every opponent at every %, and there is no arguing that. Anything different is less than optimal and therefore superfluous. Your movement options and attacks aren't going to suddenly change properties mid match and make you have to react to things you haven't had to before.

But that's the thing - right now he is arguably the best rushdown character, but also has a really solid camping game, good projectile, good recovery, good tech roll, etc. If he were meant to be the rush down character, why does he need all of these other options?

 

[PootisKonga]

But in all seriousness, **** the people saying spacies got nerfed HARD in pm when they got barely changed from Melee. That's ignorant and insulting to the mains of the load of characters that DID get nerfed significantly. Props to you if you got the sarcasm prior to reading this. Also tell me why spacies avoid the nerfbat when everyone else didn't. Really, why?

Took me a minute to process this after you said they have ****ty neutral and no kill options lol

I agree with your actual sentiments though

 

[Binary Clone]

If he's sooooo much better than the whole cast than why is he STILL not winning pm tournaments consistently.

Oh, damn, you got us.

Except no, that's bull****, Fox wins PM tournaments almost twice as much as any other character, despite only slightly higher usage rates.

 

[_A1]

Why hasn't anybody talked about this?

Because the goal is to not have distinctly best characters. "Well, it's inevitable, so **** it, just give up and leave it" is not a valid argument in the slightest.

If someone is distinctly the best, we should examine why and figure out what changes can be made to further balance the cast, especially in a beta game.

I never said to give up the goal of perfect balance. Of course we need to get as close as possible, but I really think that IF there had to be best characters they would be spacies. It's healthier to the metagame imo. I don't see how Falco is unbalanced since in Melee he goes relatively even with Samus and the entire S tier besides Falcon.

 

[Binary Clone]

I never said to give up the goal of perfect balance. Of course we need to get as close as possible, but I really think that IF there had to be best characters they would be spacies. It's healthier to the metagame imo. I don't see how Falco is unbalanced since in Melee he goes relatively even with Samus and the entire S tier besides Falcon.

Why is that healthier? It seems pretty arbitrary to me.

And I think most people are mostly complaining about Fox and think that Falco is a more balanced character in the PM setting.

 

[_A1]

@ Binary Clone The overall tourney results don't matter. Only regional/nationals matter because they display the height of the metagame. Like results from locals means something....

Who would you put at the top of the tier list if there had to be one? And how would said character(s) be more healthy than if spacies were slightly above the rest?

 

[Binary Clone]

@ Binary Clone The overall tourney results don't matter. Only regional/nationals matter because they display the height of the metagame. Like results from locals means something....

Who would you put at the top of the tier list if there had to be one? And how would said character(s) be more healthy than if spacies were slightly above the rest?

In that case, nothing matters right now, because there haven't been nearly enough regional 3.5 results for significant data.

I said it was arbitrary. You are saying it should be spacies. You're deflecting my question with a question. I think it shouldn't be anyone in particular. Why do you think it should be spacies in particular?

 

[_A1]

In that case, nothing matters right now, because there haven't been nearly enough regional 3.5 results for significant data.

I said it was arbitrary. You are saying it should be spacies. You're deflecting my question with a question. I think it shouldn't be anyone in particular. Why do you think it should be spacies in particular?

I don't think there should be anyone either. I'm saying that some characters will inevitably be better so if there had to be best characters they should be spacies. I say this because they are the most balanced best characters the series has seen(maybe excluding Smash 4). Melee Fox is even with Falco, Marth, and Samus. The list will only grow in PM.

 

[Binary Clone]

I say this because they are the most balanced best characters the series has seen

I'm gonna have to stop you right there.

Melee Fox is even with Falco, Marth and Samus, and that makes him balanced?

...right. Because having literally no unfavorable matchups and TWENTY TWO favorable matchups is "balanced"

Because having over a dozen MU's that are 70/30 or better is totally balanced, and favorable or advantageous MU's against the entire top tier of the cast is balanced.

No. Your argument seems to boil down to "spacies should stay the best because they've been the best," and an argument for tradition is no argument at all. Who should be top tier is completely arbitrary. Fox and Falco shouldn't be top tier. Neither should anyone else be.

Yes the list will grow in PM, and the list has grown. But does that matter?

No character has an intrinsic right to be better than the others.

 

[_A1]

I'm gonna have to stop you right there.

Melee Fox is even with Falco, Marth and Samus, and that makes him balanced?

...right. Because having literally no unfavorable matchups and TWENTY TWO favorable matchups is "balanced"

Because having over a dozen MU's that are 70/30 or better is totally balanced, and favorable or advantageous MU's against the entire top tier of the cast is balanced.

No. Your argument seems to boil down to "spacies should stay the best because they've been the best," and an argument for tradition is no argument at all. Who should be top tier is completely arbitrary. Fox and Falco shouldn't be top tier. Neither should anyone else be.

Yes the list will grow in PM, and the list has grown. But does that matter?

No character has an intrinsic right to be better than the others.

I never said spacies should be the best "cause Melee". I'm saying that other characters at #1 would donimate more than a Fox at #1. I never said Fox was balanced, I said he is by far more balanced than 64 Pika and Brawl MK(who have their own tiers btw). How does it not matter than Fox has more even matchups in PM? That makes him more balanced in PM than Melee.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

A1 steak sauce is pretty good

 

[shairn]

Take PAL Fox, shorten his DD, slow down his lasers to Falco speed
Give Falco ammo on his blaster

When do I pick up my nobel prize for game design

 

[PootisKonga]

Firing speed or travel speed?

 

[_A1]

I like the ammo concept a lot.

 

[NickLeo]

Dedede was widely considered to be just plain bad

MM?

D3 has huge disjointed hitboxes, an amazing juggle game, and a godlike off-stage game. Probably the most underrated character at the moment

 

[Phaiyte]

Look at all these people doing nothing but making up excuses lmao. But I guess I shouldn't expect more than that anyways from people in a community based off a children's game.