I disagree with how 3.5 approached balance.

[PootisKonga]

Look at all these people doing nothing but making up excuses lmao. But I guess I shouldn't expect more than that anyways from people in a community based off a children's game.

If this community matters so little to you that you'd attribute everyone here with a contrary opinion as a child, then you should probably get going right now.

 

[Phaiyte]

If this community matters so little to you that you'd attribute everyone here with a contrary opinion as a child, then you should probably get going right now.

Maybe I don't feel like having a bunch of toxic and uninformed opinions affecting my game.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

And yet you come here

 

[Ningildo]

Look at all these people doing nothing but making up excuses lmao. But I guess I shouldn't expect more than that anyways from people in a community based off a children's game.

Look at this guy dismissing us as whiners and telling us that we spend too much time too seriously on a children's game (then why do you have an account here...?) instead of actually addressing our arguments with counterarguments.

But I guess I shouldn't have expected more from a person who makes posts like these.

You know, I actually hoped you'd raise valid counterpoints so we would be able to have a proper and productive discussion. But all you can do is take pot shots at a community with ad hominem statements and look like either a troll or an asshole.

 

[TimeSmash]

Why bother responding to him then haha? I'm sure we can have an argument and just ignore posts that don't really add much to the conversation.

Anyways, though, I'm really not understanding the logic behind all the Zero Suit Samus changes. Zelda I get to an extent, but the Zero Suit stuff came out of nowhere for the most part.

 

[Binary Clone]

Why bother responding to him then haha? I'm sure we can have an argument and just ignore posts that don't really add much to the conversation.

Anyways, though, I'm really not understanding the logic behind all the Zero Suit Samus changes. Zelda I get to an extent, but the Zero Suit stuff came out of nowhere for the most part.

What changes specifically? Her new grab is a buff overall.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

What changes specifically? Her new grab is a buff overall.

To name a few changes...
The angle and range of nair was nerfed/changed
The laser can not be dash canceled anymore
Dair has been changed a bit
Her play style has changed up and shes a bit more about tech chases now

 

[TimeSmash]

What changes specifically? Her new grab is a buff overall.

I agree with you there, and I even agree with the fact they nerfed her throws to compensate. However, further analysis of these throws show that they were nerfed too much. In the thread "Petition to Restore Zero Suit Samus" (http://smashboards.com/threads/petition-to-restore-zero-suit-samus.378230/), user @ Foo makes solid points. Here's a select quote

Her throws that lead into combos are now replaced by the standard "you either get one hit, or a tech chase."

Across the board, all her changes normalized her, and forced ZSS players into a "standard" playstyle. While there is nothing wrong with the standard playstyle, it's good to have characters outside that playstyle. ZSS wasn't nerfed into the ground or anything, she's just lost her uniqueness. She still has slow but long ranged tools like fsmash and side-b too separate her, but that's just not enough imo. While her combo potential looked OP on paper, it wasn't that great because she didn't kill out of it, like most characters could. They gave her a combo game similar to sheik or falcon. Sheik and Falcon's combo games are good, but they can kill out of it easily and quickly, so it can't be too good. ZSS combo game was SICK, but it basically only lead to damage, and you had to land a raw kill move for most stocks. Back air, while very quick is relatively easy to avoid because if she's facing away, she's probably fishing for it, and down and f-smash are both frame 20.

Edit: For safety, this almost makes it sound like everyone else in that thread doesn't make solid points, which they do. Or maybe I'm overthinking because I'm studying for finals tomorrow

 

[Soft Serve]

Why bother responding to him then haha? I'm sure we can have an argument and just ignore posts that don't really add much to the conversation.

Anyways, though, I'm really not understanding the logic behind all the Zero Suit Samus changes. Zelda I get to an extent, but the Zero Suit stuff came out of nowhere for the most part.

Most of them were just tweaks.
new grab was a huge buff, so they toned down her throws and made them di mixups and tech Chace throws to stop chain grabs. They hit down b because they decided they didn't want flexible burst mobility on specials anymore.
Some of her aerials got tweaked, serve similar purposes but at higher percents normally. Tether recovery nerfs really hurt her though.

Dash cancelling the blaster is the only change that I 100% agree was needed. It was obscenely stupid in its potential. Once ZSS players realized they could just do constant pivot blasters our of the blaster, neutral was over for every character thay couldn't approach from above. To put it into perspective, if done perfectly ZSS could put out fully charged blasters at the same speed falco can SH laser. It was stupid, and the players not abusing it to the fullest isn't a reason for the PMBR to not take it out imo.

 

[Binary Clone]

I think @ Soft Serve pretty much covered it.

I'd also add that on top of the potential that dash cancelling the blaster already had, it would've been even more powerful in the environment of 3.5, especially considering her grab buff on top of that. Oro says

Dash cancel didn't seem broken in 3.02 because most of the cast was more broken or had more jank. Inserting 3.02 ZSS into 3.5 makes it very clear/apparent about how good it is.

 

[Phaiyte]

You wanna know how to deal with shine to where it's suddenly not that big a deal? Let me repeat myself:

Learn how to position yourself. If you have good positioning, you should never have a problem with someone approaching you in any way. It's a glorious day when realize you getting hit by a 5 pixel wide circle was your mistake and not the game's fault.

Learn REAL footsies instead of just jumping in blindly like everyone does in this game. If you REALLY know how to play footsies, you will get hit by shine literally 60+% less at the very least.

With footsies comes learning how to perform whiff punishes. It is NOT hard to do by any means against a Fox that is equally or less skilled than you.

Learn how to NOT press buttons just because a controller is in your hand. Stop trying to grab Fox when he's behind you. Stop trying to jump out of shield when he's sitting right there literally waiting for you to press a button.

Stop complaining about everything that happens when you're playing the game. When people do that all they're doing is reminding me of a DSP incarnate. It's funny at first but it gets annoying and all it does is make you demoralize yourself insuring your loss even further. "OMg I'm so mad because I got hit by xxxxxxx because it's sOOOoooOOooo broke". No, you got hit because your positioning and decision making sucks, or sucked at the time at the very least. In my recent tournaments I've been to I will purposely anger my opponents because I know they just love complaining and blaming everything on everything but themselves. Exact quotes:
> "I only lost because you hit me with shine over 100 times"
(I took 2 stocks and let the time run out. After that, never even fired a laser, never used any normals, and I managed to get hit a grand total of 3 times for the duration of 6 minutes.)
> "Nah man, I just noticed that you kept doing random shffls for no reason so I just shined you during your L cancel frames every time you landed"
> "WHAT!? YOU SHOULDN'T BE ABLE TO DO THAT WITH ANY CHARACTER!!!!!"
> proceeded to do the same thing in the next two matches of the set, winning with almost nothing but ftilts of two other characters. Bowser and Ike. Making sure he knew exactly what he was complaining about was entirely his fault and not the game's.

If you can do ANYthing mentioned in this post, the only reason you will ever lose is because you got outplayed by a better player. Not because the opponent was Fox.


Pardon me if my 10 years of fundamental training in real fighting games causes me to be stone cold. Has anyone ever played a MOBA before? The type where everyone in bronze acts all high and mighty honestly believing they're better than platinum players when they can't even manipulate creep waves or take objectives correctly? omg i'm sooooo just stuck in elo hell i'll never get a higher rank with a bunch of ******* on my team etcetcetc. That's what you guys sound like.

 

[TimeSmash]

Most of them were just tweaks.
new grab was a huge buff, so they toned down her throws and made them di mixups and tech Chace throws to stop chain grabs. They hit down b because they decided they didn't want flexible burst mobility on specials anymore.
Some of her aerials got tweaked, serve similar purposes but at higher percents normally. Tether recovery nerfs really hurt her though.

Dash cancelling the blaster is the only change that I 100% agree was needed. It was obscenely stupid in its potential. Once ZSS players realized they could just do constant pivot blasters our of the blaster, neutral was over for every character thay couldn't approach from above. To put it into perspective, if done perfectly ZSS could put out fully charged blasters at the same speed falco can SH laser. It was stupid, and the players not abusing it to the fullest isn't a reason for the PMBR to not take it out imo.

I'd have to agree with you that dash-cancelled blaster should have been removed. However, her throws have been proven to be too laggy and DI'ing up and away from ZSS eliminates a lot of the original purpose of those grabs, which was also stated in that thread but I can't find it currently. It's not so much ZSS was nerfed in a couple of ways, but that it changed the way she played more than anything

 

[Binary Clone]

The type where everyone in bronze acts all high and mighty

Well, you've put it in good words yourself, so I guess we don't need to respond.

@ TimeSmash The throws may have been overnerfed a bit, but saying "bring back 3.02 ZSS" is definitely an overreaction.

I think the new throws are supposed to be more about techchases than combos, but her uthrow should probably be a better combo throw than it is.

 

[TimeSmash]

Well, you've put it in good words yourself, so I guess we don't need to respond.

@ TimeSmash The throws may have been overnerfed a bit, but saying "bring back 3.02 ZSS" is definitely an overreaction.

I think the new throws are supposed to be more about techchases than combos, but her uthrow should probably be a better combo throw than it is.

Oh no no haha, I'm not saying that at all! With 3.5 being the way it is, I'm not saying a copy and paste 3.02 ZSS is the way to go, but I'd rather have a ZSS in this iteration that retained [mostly] the same playstyle

 

[Phaiyte]

ZSS is currently great as is in this patch. A minor laser tweak in some way and reducing some but not all of the added lag on nair would be all she needs imho. The answer to lasers would be as simple as some trial/error on charge and animation recovery times.

 

[Rizner]

You wanna know how to deal with shine to where it's suddenly not that big a deal? Let me repeat myself:

Learn how to position yourself. If you have good positioning, you should never have a problem with someone approaching you in any way. It's a glorious day when realize you getting hit by a 5 pixel wide circle was your mistake and not the game's fault.

Learn REAL footsies instead of just jumping in blindly like everyone does in this game. If you REALLY know how to play footsies, you will get hit by shine literally 60+% less at the very least.

With footsies comes learning how to perform whiff punishes. It is NOT hard to do by any means against a Fox that is equally or less skilled than you.

Learn how to NOT press buttons just because a controller is in your hand. Stop trying to grab Fox when he's behind you. Stop trying to jump out of shield when he's sitting right there literally waiting for you to press a button.

Stop complaining about everything that happens when you're playing the game. When people do that all they're doing is reminding me of a DSP incarnate. It's funny at first but it gets annoying and all it does is make you demoralize yourself insuring your loss even further. "OMg I'm so mad because I got hit by xxxxxxx because it's sOOOoooOOooo broke". No, you got hit because your positioning and decision making sucks, or sucked at the time at the very least. In my recent tournaments I've been to I will purposely anger my opponents because I know they just love complaining and blaming everything on everything but themselves. Exact quotes:
> "I only lost because you hit me with shine over 100 times"
(I took 2 stocks and let the time run out. After that, never even fired a laser, never used any normals, and I managed to get hit a grand total of 3 times for the duration of 6 minutes.)
> "Nah man, I just noticed that you kept doing random shffls for no reason so I just shined you during your L cancel frames every time you landed"
> "WHAT!? YOU SHOULDN'T BE ABLE TO DO THAT WITH ANY CHARACTER!!!!!"
> proceeded to do the same thing in the next two matches of the set, winning with almost nothing but ftilts of two other characters. Bowser and Ike. Making sure he knew exactly what he was complaining about was entirely his fault and not the game's.

If you can do ANYthing mentioned in this post, the only reason you will ever lose is because you got outplayed by a better player. Not because the opponent was Fox.


Pardon me if my 10 years of fundamental training in real fighting games causes me to be stone cold. Has anyone ever played a MOBA before? The type where everyone in bronze acts all high and mighty honestly believing they're better than platinum players when they can't even manipulate creep waves or take objectives correctly? omg i'm sooooo just stuck in elo hell i'll never get a higher rank with a bunch of ******* on my team etcetcetc. That's what you guys sound like.

ok, so with that - why were a lot of the other nerfs done on the cast? Why did sonic need changing before? Why was mewtwo so good that he needed changing? What is the difference where Fox is cool as he is, and those characters weren't? I see what you're saying here, but I feel like there's a disconnect because I guess I never asked what you thought about the nerfs which were just done and are generally accepted as required.

 

[Soft Serve]

Just because counterplay existest doesnt mean things shouldn't be changed.
examples:
3.02 diddy: just wavedash to catch all his items.
Mk/ICs: just don't get grabbed
Links boomerang : just power shield it

Yeah, "don't get hit" is good advice. But if you are defaulting to saying that and not even addressing the points people are trying to make you just sound like you are trolling.

 

[Phaiyte]

ok, so with that - why were a lot of the other nerfs done on the cast? Why did sonic need changing before? Why was mewtwo so good that he needed changing? What is the difference where Fox is cool as he is, and those characters weren't? I see what you're saying here, but I feel like there's a disconnect because I guess I never asked what you thought about the nerfs which were just done and are generally accepted as required.

As many have said dozens of times before, this is a design patch, not really a buff/nerf patch. I can't speak for the PMBR, but I gaurantee the plan is so how things flesh out as is and grow from there. You and I are essentially beta/alpha testers.

 

[Rizner]

As many have said dozens of times before, this is a design patch, not really a buff/nerf patch. I can't speak for the PMBR, but I gaurantee the plan is so how things flesh out as is and grow from there. You and I are essentially beta/alpha testers.

ahh, ok. I wish the patch notes had design decisions, so we could see what they actually intended instead of guessing and inferring different things so when something like foxes shine not being touched can be debated with a little less guesswork and not have different views on what and why things were changed.

 

[J3f]

You wanna know how to deal with shine to where it's suddenly not that big a deal? Let me repeat myself:

Learn how to position yourself. If you have good positioning, you should never have a problem with someone approaching you in any way. It's a glorious day when realize you getting hit by a 5 pixel wide circle was your mistake and not the game's fault.

Learn REAL footsies instead of just jumping in blindly like everyone does in this game. If you REALLY know how to play footsies, you will get hit by shine literally 60+% less at the very least.

With footsies comes learning how to perform whiff punishes. It is NOT hard to do by any means against a Fox that is equally or less skilled than you.

Learn how to NOT press buttons just because a controller is in your hand. Stop trying to grab Fox when he's behind you. Stop trying to jump out of shield when he's sitting right there literally waiting for you to press a button.

Stop complaining about everything that happens when you're playing the game. When people do that all they're doing is reminding me of a DSP incarnate. It's funny at first but it gets annoying and all it does is make you demoralize yourself insuring your loss even further. "OMg I'm so mad because I got hit by xxxxxxx because it's sOOOoooOOooo broke". No, you got hit because your positioning and decision making sucks, or sucked at the time at the very least. In my recent tournaments I've been to I will purposely anger my opponents because I know they just love complaining and blaming everything on everything but themselves. Exact quotes:
> "I only lost because you hit me with shine over 100 times"
(I took 2 stocks and let the time run out. After that, never even fired a laser, never used any normals, and I managed to get hit a grand total of 3 times for the duration of 6 minutes.)
> "Nah man, I just noticed that you kept doing random shffls for no reason so I just shined you during your L cancel frames every time you landed"
> "WHAT!? YOU SHOULDN'T BE ABLE TO DO THAT WITH ANY CHARACTER!!!!!"
> proceeded to do the same thing in the next two matches of the set, winning with almost nothing but ftilts of two other characters. Bowser and Ike. Making sure he knew exactly what he was complaining about was entirely his fault and not the game's.

If you can do ANYthing mentioned in this post, the only reason you will ever lose is because you got outplayed by a better player. Not because the opponent was Fox.


Pardon me if my 10 years of fundamental training in real fighting games causes me to be stone cold. Has anyone ever played a MOBA before? The type where everyone in bronze acts all high and mighty honestly believing they're better than platinum players when they can't even manipulate creep waves or take objectives correctly? omg i'm sooooo just stuck in elo hell i'll never get a higher rank with a bunch of ******* on my team etcetcetc. That's what you guys sound like.

Ahh.. so your saying I should fight Fox with a character that has more mobility than Fox. I should also use attacks that come out faster than Shine with more range. I should also react within the 4 Jump Cancellable frames of shine with an attack that comes out in time with enough range to Whiff punish. I should also wait for Fox to come in and pray that he doesn't just Laser me until I (over)commit to an approach. I should also be patient while shielding and have faith my opponent doesn't know how to grab a shielding character. Any way you put it Fox forces you to play his game.

Everything you've stated is only really doable with Marth, unless you're far superior than your opponent. Fox is beatable, but Fox makes up for the skill gap between you and your opponent. Fox allows those less skilled to beat out much more skilled players using anyone else in the cast. At the top levels Fox is a lot more prevalent, because anyone wanting to win knows how much of a clear advantage Fox has. Between 2 evenly skilled players the one that picks Fox will win against the one that doesn't.

 

[Phaiyte]

Just because counterplay existest doesnt mean things shouldn't be changed.
examples:
3.02 diddy: just wavedash to catch all his items.
Mk/ICs: just don't get grabbed
Links boomerang : just power shield it

Yeah, "don't get hit" is good advice. But if you are defaulting to saying that and not even addressing the points people are trying to make you just sound like you are trolling.

Diddy's extra banana was somewhat a problem because they could actually cause true unblockables.

I don't speak for MK or IC

Asking someone to literally power shield every projectile is just silly. A better answer to most boomerangs was simply sticking a hitbox out there. A lot of moves could just destroy the boomerang. While yes, Link had/has the option of throwing another one or a bomb at that point, you have options just like he does. Link's boomerang is almost a guessing game like any other good zoner character. He throws it up? Run under it. He throws it right at you? If you're far away destroy it and make an advance, if you're mid range most characters can short hop over it and punish just fine. If you're mega close, some moves can destroy the boomerang and hit Link at the same time, other solutions should be fairly obvious by now because throwing a boomerang point blank is a terrible idea. This is likely why Link boomerang has slower movement on startup now.

 

[Phaiyte]

Ahh.. so your saying I should fight Fox with a character that has more mobility than Fox. I should also use attacks that come out faster than Shine with more range. I should also react within the 4 Jump Cancellable frames of shine with an attack that comes out in time with enough range to Whiff punish. I should also wait for Fox to come in and pray that he doesn't just Laser me until I (over)commit to an approach. I should also be patient while shielding and have faith my opponent doesn't know how to grab a shielding character. Any way you put it Fox forces you to play his game.

Everything you've stated is only really doable with Marth, unless you're far superior than your opponent. Fox is beatable, but Fox makes up for the skill gap between you and your opponent. Fox allows those less skilled to beat out much more skilled players using anyone else in the cast. At the top levels Fox is a lot more prevalent, because anyone wanting to win knows how much of a clear advantage Fox has. Between 2 evenly skilled players the one that picks Fox will win against the one that doesn't.

You're incredibly wrong and have no idea of what neutral/footies is. And that's ok for now, but the only thing you're doing in that post is expressing extreme bias, and wrongly so. Watch this and respond when you can perform it in real time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVrxin4OYuE

 

[Soft Serve]

Diddy's extra banana was somewhat a problem because they could actually cause true unblockables.

I don't speak for MK or IC

A better answer to most boomerangs was simply sticking a hitbox out there. A lot of moves could just destroy the boomerang. While yes, Link had/has the option of throwing another one or a bomb at that point, you have options just like he does. Link's boomerang is almost a guessing game like any other good zoner character. He throws it up? Run under it. He throws it right at you? If you're far away destroy it and make an advance, if you're mid range most characters can short hop over it and punish just fine. If you're mega close, some moves can destroy the boomerang and hit Link at the same time, other solutions should be fairly obvious by now because throwing a boomerang point blank is a terrible idea. This is likely why Link boomerang has slower movement on startup now.

You are missing the point. I'm saying there's counterplay to previously super strong characters(although most of them were strictly worse than fox as a character, and if perceived better it was because of results or MU spread within the common match ups), who where still nerfed. You said there is counterplay to fox, which should be used as justification for why he shouldn't be toned down.

 

[Foo]

WHO DARES SUMMON ME?!?!

Oh, you guys are talking about ZSS? Oh, in that case....

The reason ZSS players are upset about her changes is:

NOT BECAUSE SHE GOT NERFED!

Sorry for yelling, but I want to get that out of the way as clearly as possible. We are upset because they removed everything that made her fun and interesting, as well as drastically alter her playstyle.

New Grab: Her new grab is the BIGGEST problem for two main reasons. The primary is that it does NOT fit her character. In 3.02, she was primarily compromised of low risk, lowish reward moves (generally kicks, exception is nair) and high risk high reward moves (generally whip). The new grab was supposedly added to "fit her character," but it makes as much sense as giving falco a glide because he's a bird. The secondary reason is that it broke the rest of her kit, thanks for the former reason. With her new grab, that means no dash cancel paralyzer, no more good throws, no more DI mixups etc.

Dash Cancel Paralyzer: This isn't a viability thing, this is a fun and playstyle thing. Being able to throw out a projectile without sacrificing much mobility was fun, and allowed her to apply a lot of pressure. Was it too strong in 3.02? Not really. Would it be too strong in 3.5? yes. Does that mean it needed to be completely removed? Absolutely not. There were more options to tone it down than I'd care to count, such as increasing speed, making it a special dash, delaying the dash cancel, making it non-electric, being able to hit through it (like snake dart) and on and on. Instead, they chose to just remove it entirely as an option. Mewtwo acting out of teleport was toned down, but left in, and ZSS blaster cancel was outright removed?

Nair: Her nair change was a buff and a nerf. The changed knockback keeps it from comboing at low %s, but it combos like it did before at higher%s. This means you can link upairs at low%s for a slightly weaker combo game, but you can link nair into fair (which was buffed to have the two kicks link better). That means she can finally kill out of combos (not well, but it works), something that doesn't really fit her character. With her new nair, being able to link it out of throws would make her able to kill out of throws. That means she now cannot be allowed to have combos out of throws. As for the lower range, it means you cannot pressure shield with it, without using risky frame traps. So, you have to pressure entirely with bairs, mixups, or just DD camp instead.

In the end, how has this changed the character? Well, she was changed from a hyper aggressive character that never played on defense, and had a bag full of tricks at her disposal, available only to players her mastered her. Now, we have a generic speedster with a defense dash-dance camp style and limited ways to apply pressure outside of poking. Her combo game, while still being good, is no longer unique because they strings are shorter, but they actually can end in a kill now rather than being purely to rack up damage. I believe the down-b nerf was intended to nerf her recovery, not burst movement, but I could be wrong. It's not a big deal, but it is another nerf to her fun

@ Soft Serve Serve No offense, but you are way off the mark. Her new throws aren't tech chases and DI mixups. She has zero potential for DI mixups and the tech chases only work at lower %s unless they are semifast or fast fallers. They aren't good tech chases either, because with the incredible endlag on downthrow, they are in their tech roll before you can move. She now has the single worst set of throws in the game.

As for her aerials, only nair and dair got changed, but it was more than tweaks. Dair got changed from a silly, but not very good move, to a silly but useless move. You can no longer link dair off of it on grounded targets, and it's hard to even get one aerial as follow up anyway. If you dair a shield, you are vunerable to almost anyone's upair (of whatever) oos. Nair's combo game was repurpsed entirely and went from being her bread and butter in neutral, to "only use this in combos."

As for blasters... what? I've never seen a single ZSS player use pivot blasters. Blaster wavedash back into blaster was what you saw, if you saw it. Also, full charged laser was NOWHERE NEAR as fast as falco lasers. Falco can get two lasers off before the fully charged laser even finished charging. it was frame 40 last patch. Uncharged was the only one used. Not saying laser would be fine as is in 3.5, just that it could have been tweaked rather than outright removed. You could remove the dumb from blaster cancel EASILY without outright scrapping it.

As for her recovery nerf, no one really cares about it too much. It was probably for the best. Maybe it's a little too much, but you still have options. It's the OTHER up-b tethers that are screwed.

 

[Phaiyte]

You are missing the point. I'm saying there's counterplay to previously super strong characters(although most of them were strictly worse than fox as a character, and if perceived better it was because of results or MU spread within the common match ups), who where still nerfed. You said there is counterplay to fox, which should be used as justification for why he shouldn't be toned down.

I'm not missing aything. This is a design patch rather than buff/nerf patch etcetc. The PMBR clearly have it in their heads the way they want characters to work, and getting just the skeleton of that is likely what the goal of this patch was, rather than presenting a 41 character game with a 50/50 mu spread across the whole cast. Getting the community to do the year long dirty work of "See how this character works, make a **** load of tournament stream videos for study material, make minor tweaks accordingly".

 

[TimeSmash]

Although I did suggest it in another thread, a compromise that MAY work for ZSS would be to have a grab-alternator side taunt where she could switch her grab to tether grab if so desired. However, throws would have to be balanced for this method, and it's definitely an esoteric way to fight someone, meaning people would have to adapt to two kinds of grabs. However, it's possible it could work, could help restore some of the uniqueness of the previous ZSS and that it would be fitting for her in terms that her armored counterpart also has a side taunt that changes some of her moveset properties. It's just a theory though, so don't take TOO much stock in it, hah

 

[;Juice-And-Eggs;]

I kinda see/agree to what @ P Phaiyte is saying even though he kinda sounds like an a**hole/troll in his earlier posts. To add to that, people complaining should at least adapt and learn the matchup they're against instead of just sitting on their a**es and whine that this particular character is "OP" simply because they lost to that character. If they do that, then they're not enjoying competitive Smash (and fighting games) as a whole, because they're not learning about it. I don't see Melee players complain about Fox and Falco so why should P:M players do if there's soooo much more diversity in P:M's meta-game compared to Melee's (especially when both of them already received nerfs)? I understand if people don't like particular matchups, it's just the complaining and asking for nerfs part is what makes it funny and disappointing to me at the same time.

 

[J3f]

I kinda see/agree to what @ P Phaiyte is saying even though he kinda sounds like an a**hole/troll in his earlier posts. To add to that, people complaining should at least adapt and learn the matchup they're against instead of just sitting on their a**es and whine that this particular character is "OP" simply because they lost to that character. If they do that, then they're not enjoying competitive Smash (and fighting games) as a whole, because they're not learning about it. I don't see Melee players complain about Fox and Falco so why should P:M players do if there's soooo much more diversity in P:M's meta-game compared to Melee's (especially when both of them already received nerfs)? I understand if people don't like particular matchups, it's just the complaining and asking for nerfs part is what makes it funny and disappointing to me at the same time.

People don't complain a lot in Melee, because Nintendo won't listen to them. People still complain about Fox in Melee as well as other characters like Sheik. If people didn't complain Sheik would still have her Chaingrab game in PM ,invalidating most of the cast like it did in Melee. The difference between Melee and Project M is that the PMDT listen to us.

Melee players have to accept the broken game they are stuck with, but we don't. Also Fox really hasn't received very many nerfs, not on the same level as the rest of the cast. He's 1:0.95 to his Melee incarnation. Compare that to characters who have received nerfs both directly and indirectly(tethers, etc.) or even been completely changed.

In order for Fox to be balanced in 3.5 he needs the same treatment that MetaKnight received. The PMDT needs to accept that Fox has always been top dog and is detrimental to the game, the same way MetaKnight transitioned from Brawl to Project M.

Lastly, Metagame Diverstity doesn't excuse Fox's imbalances because most of the cast are Melee veterans. Even if a new character like ZSS could dominate the Fox Match (Which she can't), most other characters don't have the tools to deal with Fox.

 

[shairn]

Sheik's CG is still in PM, it's just on other characters now.
At least it was in 3.02, not quite sure about the state of CGs in 3.5.

 

[Phaiyte]

words

You didn't even click that link, did you

Sheik's CG is still in PM, it's just on other characters now.
At least it was in 3.02, not quite sure about the state of CGs in 3.5.

And then she has it on a few more characters with the help of a single jab.

 

[shairn]

I was referring to other characters having a dthrow that chaingrabs, but yeah Sheik can still CG pretty reliably.

 

[Rizner]

I kinda see/agree to what @ P Phaiyte is saying even though he kinda sounds like an a**hole/troll in his earlier posts. To add to that, people complaining should at least adapt and learn the matchup they're against instead of just sitting on their a**es and whine that this particular character is "OP" simply because they lost to that character. If they do that, then they're not enjoying competitive Smash (and fighting games) as a whole, because they're not learning about it. I don't see Melee players complain about Fox and Falco so why should P:M players do if there's soooo much more diversity in P:M's meta-game compared to Melee's (especially when both of them already received nerfs)? I understand if people don't like particular matchups, it's just the complaining and asking for nerfs part is what makes it funny and disappointing to me at the same time.

I just see inconsistencies. When another character gets a tool which is hard to counter but not really game-breaking and can be played around if you're good and comfortable with the matchup it gets taken away again. I just want their ideas to be similar across cast - if fox has a tool and you want to have him keep it, let others keep theirs. Let mewtwo act out of hover; let sonic be fast and powerful. Let Lucas have his offstage game. But if not, why should fox keep everything when other characters aren't allowed to?

 

[TimeSmash]

I just see inconsistencies. When another character gets a tool which is hard to counter but not really game-breaking and can be played around if you're good and comfortable with the matchup it gets taken away again. I just want their ideas to be similar across cast - if fox has a tool and you want to have him keep it, let others keep theirs. Let mewtwo act out of hover; let sonic be fast and powerful. Let Lucas have his offstage game. But if not, why should fox keep everything when other characters aren't allowed to?

It's weird because things are seen as polarizing, but not polarizing enough in other cases. ZSS and Zelda were seen as polarizing in 3.02 as I know you're aware haha, but there were other things that were toned down and not changed outright. PM allows pretty creative things, like the whole Ganon cape/semi-float, which probably won't be taken out. To me right now it seems the PMDT is trying to make some things more like Melee, as seen in the changelist, which baffles me as the M is no longer for Melee but several things were changed because of Melee. And yet other things are novel, like Zelda 3.02's and 3.5's Din's Fire. While I agree with recovery nerfs and tweaks, we have a lot of variety here, and I agree with you that it shouldn't be stifled. Changing ZSS so drastically when most of her wasn't really that bad in the first place (again, I actually agree with things like removal of dash cancelled paralyzer, somewhat agree with changed Nair) doesn't make that much sense just because she played differently than other characters. While I love Melee and understand this project takes a lot from that game, altering things to make it based so much around that playstyle seems counterintuitive. Lastly, I agree with you about spacies for the most part. Just because they were top tier in a previous game does not mean they have to be in this game as well

 

[J3f]

Sheik's CG is still in PM, it's just on other characters now.
At least it was in 3.02, not quite sure about the state of CGs in 3.5.

I'm referring specifically to how Sheik could get reliable chaingrabs on half the cast in Melee that lead to 0-death combos.Sheik's responsible for keeping a lot of Melee characters out of top tier even though they can deal with a lot of other top tiers. Sheik still has chaingrabs in PM, but it's nowhere near as broken as it is in Melee.

You didn't even click that link, did you

I wasn't even replying to you or anything specific in your post, but if you can't wait your turn like a petulant child. First off you posted to a video of Street Fighter 4. A much slower and altogether different fighting game than Project M.
Secondly footsies are a combination of speed and range. Fox exels at Footsies because he has quick burst movement and extremely fast moves, some even coming out frame 1. Even if Fox does whiff a move he can recover from it very easily. Shine is safe on shield and can be canceled as early as frame 4. In order for many other characters to throw footsies they have to commit to it, something that Fox can easily bait for. He has the mobility to punish a lot of moves that would outspace him, sometimes even without a read. Even if Fox doesn't play footsies with you he has lasers to deal with you at range, and believe it or not the intended use of REFLECTOR is to reflect projectiles instead of Semispiking your opponent or airstalling. Between shine and his second to none mobility, Fox is also a nightmare to zone out.

Now take into account that Project M is a much faster game where judging pixel perfect distances is much harder than in Street Fighter 4.

 

[BananaBolts]

I never said spacies should be the best "cause Melee". I'm saying that other characters at #1 would donimate more than a Fox at #1. I never said Fox was balanced, I said he is by far more balanced than 64 Pika and Brawl MK(who have their own tiers btw). How does it not matter than Fox has more even matchups in PM? That makes him more balanced in PM than Melee.

I'm just going to interject real quick:
I'm part of the 64 community and I can tell you that the S tier that Pika used to be S tier is slowly dwindling. Would you like to know which character a large portion of the 64 community sees very large potential in? Fox. I could get in to technicalities but I'd be throwing around terms that you might not understand (yes, you're a perfectly fine Smasher who's competent enough to understand but I don't feel like explaining much right now because I have to go study for finals).

Anyways, Fox or any spacies for that matter don't inherently deserve a place at the top of a PM tier list. It doesn't matter what their track record is. I'm certain that the PMDT wants their to be only one tier; a tier that houses every character. And yes, shine is ridiculous in its current state. Heck, it's even ridiculous in 64 even though you can't jump cancel it.

 

[_A1]

I'm just going to interject real quick:
I'm part of the 64 community and I can tell you that the S tier that Pika used to be S tier is slowly dwindling. Would you like to know which character a large portion of the 64 community sees very large potential in? Fox. I could get in to technicalities but I'd be throwing around terms that you might not understand (yes, you're a perfectly fine Smasher who's competent enough to understand but I don't feel like explaining much right now because I have to go study for finals).

Anyways, Fox or any spacies for that matter don't inherently deserve a place at the top of a PM tier list. It doesn't matter what their track record is. I'm certain that the PMDT wants their to be only one tier; a tier that houses every character. And yes, shine is ridiculous in its current state. Heck, it's even ridiculous in 64 even though you can't jump cancel it.

Not quite sure how 64 Fox's development matters in PM but w/e.

I already said a million times that perfect balance is optimal. It's not possible though, and I'm saying that even as top tier characters, spacies are not broken compared to everyone else. It's best to have top tier characters that have shown to be very beatable. Samus slightly beats spacies in PM imo.

 

[BananaBolts]

Not quite sure how 64 Fox's development matters in PM but w/e.

I already said a million times that perfect balance is optimal. It's not possible though, and I'm saying that even as top tier characters, spacies are not broken compared to everyone else. It's best to have top tier characters that have shown to be very beatable. Samus slightly beats spacies in PM imo.

I'll agree that spacies aren't broken in the grand scheme of things but they do have too many safe options. If they're designed to be glass canons, then they shouldn't have such solid defensive games too. That's totally counter intuitive to a glass canon design. I don't know if Fox is intended to be a glass canon or not; I'm just speculating.

If Fox was broken, he'd be nigh unbeatable at any skill level. What everyone here is trying to convince you of is that Fox has too many solid, safe options. Shine is just way too versatile in a game designed to fix a broken game, Brawl. 3.02 Fox wasn't that bad because a few other characters were able to "out jank" him. Now that 3.5 is out and nerfs were handed out like candy on Halloween, people are starting to realize that Fox is the elephant in the room. He's the elephant that only got candy apples on Halloween instead of the nerf candy.

No one here, from what I've been reading, wants spacies to get completely neutered. Everyone just wants spacies to receive a well needed nerf. They still need one. I suggest shine and lasers to be the biggest changes.

 

[Phaiyte]

First off you posted to a video of Street Fighter 4. A much slower and altogether different fighting game than Project M.

Look at you on your high horse showing off your scrubness with pride lmao. That's cute and I somewhat commend that, but if you think street fighter is actually slow than I feel incredibly bad for you. Smash creates the illusion of fast paced game play by providing free range movement, but it is not "faster" by any means. It does not matter how different street fighter is. That video breaks down the basics of neutral for EVERY FIGHTING GAME IN THE WORLD. The same **** can be and is performed in Guilty Gear, Blazblue, inJustice, King of Fighters, Skull Girls, Tekken, every iteration of every crossover fighter(SvC, MvC, SFvT etc), and is very much so prevalent in Smash. Don't pretend like this game is any faster or more thought provoking than other popular fighting games, because that's ridiculously short sighted, pretentious, and overall wrong. If anything some other games are even faster because you're forced to commit more and then make more mixup decisions at the same time. I'll never understand why Smash players are this full of themselves lol.

Secondly footsies are a combination of speed and range. Fox exels at Footsies because he has quick burst movement and extremely fast moves, some even coming out frame 1. Even if Fox does whiff a move he can recover from it very easily. Shine is safe on shield and can be canceled as early as frame 4. In order for many other characters to throw footsies they have to commit to it, something that Fox can easily bait for. He has the mobility to punish a lot of moves that would outspace him, sometimes even without a read. Even if Fox doesn't play footsies with you he has lasers to deal with you at range, and believe it or not the intended use of REFLECTOR is to reflect projectiles instead of Semispiking your opponent or airstalling. Between shine and his second to none mobility, Fox is also a nightmare to zone out.

Some moves frame 1? Like, more than 1 move? elaborate on that lol.

Shine is not that safe on shield. With good execution you can grab him right out of it. Even easier in this game because of grab armor. Fox has to display the same execution skill to punish you for pressing a button. It doesn't even deal significant shield damage lol. The only reason Fox would be able to shine in front of you and get away with it is because your execution is bad.

Fox has to commit in footsies just as much as everyone else does, whether you think so or not.

Your idea of footsies and neutral again is incredibly wrong and flying WAY in the opposite direction. This whole paragraph is mostly regurgitated bias and basically assuming that the non Fox player is just going to sit there and eat lasers like candy. You're only semi-correct about footsies being a combination of speed and range. Your idea of spacing is only halfway there. There's a **** load more to everything than that. You're completely skipping the part where prediction takes place, which Fox has to do just as much as you to make things happen, among a lot of other things that I don't feel like listing from an hour long video or 300 page book.

Now then, having more speed or range does not make your character inherently better at footsies, otherwise Marth would be literal god tier right now. It might feel good to have those things, but it does not make them better at it. Fox has no range, and it's easy as **** to abuse that if you don't suck. You are excluding positioning entirely. You have the ability to position yourself, and your character CAN move. ****ing do it lol. You're also completely forgetting about recovery animations. Yaknow, those several frames of every move in the game that don't have a hitbox on it and the character can't move until it's complete? You know what happens when Fox misses a nair? He instantly gets grabbed by my DK or Bowser. You know what happens when Fox gets grabbed by DK or Bowser? He dies. Quit acting like movement speed is everything, because it's actually not, and only actual scrubs think like that. You have plenty of options to make Fox whiff and punish no matter what character you're playing. You have plenty of options to force Fox to not be able to move away from you fast enough. Fox is not THAT much faster than anyone else in the cast, and with almost 0 range to complement it. Wolf shffls faster. Falcon runs faster. I bet if you pick Fox, I can beat you in footsies without ever entering dash animation. You would get chunked by me literally just walking back and forth and beating everything you try to throw out with ease.

Lasers: you have shield DI which is extremely easy to perform, and you also have the ability to jump and just not get hit by those lasers. It's seriously not that big a deal lol. omg I took 1% I'm so dead now~

I'm not even going to touch on your projectile reflecting point because if you get caught by that then you deserve to never be allowed to play the game ever again.

If you see Fox shine in mid air, you know what's gonna happen? Either he's already spent his double jump and you're free to trash him, or he has to spend his double jump and you're free to trash him. The ONLY exception is if you predicted and played footsies entirely wrong, and that's all your fault.

Now take into account that Project M is a much faster game where judging pixel perfect distances is much harder than in Street Fighter 4.

No it is not. If I can judge just about every move in this game at a pixel perfect range, there's no excuse why you can't too.

The problem with you is that you're only thinking of Fox's options and no one else's at any given point in time. You're literally not even thinking when there is a Fox on the screen. The text that you're presenting shows me that you're an actual scrub. There's nothing wrong with that, but don't try and convince people tha you know a single thing about how fighting games really work at a more than mediocre level.

 

[PootisKonga]

Shine is not that safe on shield.

Umm? Frame 1 move that is jump cancellable frame 4 whilst the average grab comes out frame 7 is not safe on shield and can be grabbed?

 

[Foo]

Shine is not that safe on shield. With good execution you can grab him right out of it.

OH! I was confused for a bit, but now I understand. You just have no idea what you are talking about! That makes this so much more simple.

Shine is probably the safest move on shield in the game. Except MAYBE grab. If you do it right, you can shine pressure shield so well that all they can do is buffer roll out of shield or jump and take the hit.