I disagree with how 3.5 approached balance.

[BananaBolts]

Shine is probably the safest move on shield in the game. Except MAYBE grab. If you do it right, you can shine pressure shield so well that all they can do is buffer roll out of shield or jump and take the hit.

I'd give it to Marth's fully charged shield breaker but it takes too long to fully charge it against a competent opponent. Shine, on the other hand, is even safer on the account of frame 1 and jump cancel-able on frame 4. Yep, shine on shield is safer than shield breaker in most cases.

 

[Phaiyte]

You have a 2 frame window where you can grab Fox whereas he only has a 1 frame window where he can only hope to counter your bad execution. And you have shield DI now which pushes you away from each other. Under a lot of circumstances a second shine wouldn't even connect. If he has to wavedash towards you to score another hit that is a free grab for you. You are all literally ****ing ********.

 

[Foo]

You have a 2 frame window where you can grab Fox whereas he only has a 1 frame window where he can only hope to counter your bad execution. And you have shield DI now which pushes you away from each other. Under a lot of circumstances a second shine wouldn't even connect. If he has to wavedash towards you to score another hit that is a free grab for you. You are all literally ****ing ********.

Do you know what shield stun is?

 

[Phaiyte]

Do you know what shield stun is?

Did you know you can spam the **** out of the A button while you're in that shield and you'll automatically grab as soon as you're able to? Frame perfect double shines still get shield grabbed. Still a 2 frame execution vs a 1 frame execution. Try again.

 

[PootisKonga]

You are all literally ****ing ********.

Good for you! You actually legitimately made me despise a complete stranger for once, especially by insulting contrary opinions through making light of mental illness.

 

[SpiderMad]

Did you know you can spam the **** out of the A button while you're in that shield and you'll automatically grab as soon as you're able to? Frame perfect double shines still get shield grabbed. Still a 2 frame execution vs a 1 frame execution. Try again.

Frame perfect double shine I think gets the grabber hit

 

[Phaiyte]

Frame perfect double shine I think gets the grabber hit

Frame perfect shield grab vs frame perfect shine wins the grab.
Frame perfect shield grab vs -1 frame perfect shine trades and the grab still happens.

 

[Foo]

Did you know you can spam the **** out of the A button while you're in that shield and you'll automatically grab as soon as you're able to? Frame perfect double shines still get shield grabbed. Still a 2 frame execution vs a 1 frame execution. Try again.

Nope. When you try to grab, you instantly drop shield. Unless they mess up you get shined for trying The best part is, there are SO many mixups. They can do basically whatever they want out of shine, so even if it wasn't safe on shield, it wouldn't matter.

Here's what multishining looks like. It's much faster than you think

 

[Phaiyte]

Good for you! You actually legitimately made me despise a complete stranger for once, especially by insulting contrary opinions through making light of mental illness.

Watch me not care about your feelings or "opinions".

Nope. When you try to grab, you instantly drop shield. Unless they mess up you get shined for trying The best part is, there are SO many mixups. They can do basically whatever they want out of shine, so even if it wasn't safe on shield, it wouldn't matter.

Here's what multishining looks like. It's much faster than you think

Frame perfect shield grab vs frame perfect shine wins the grab.
Frame perfect shield grab vs -1 frame perfect shine trades and the grab still happens.

Shine doesn't happen on every single consecutive frame like it looks like you think it does. I don't need to be shown what multishining looks like when I can perform 40 in a row on my own no problem.

 

[Binary Clone]

Frame perfect shield grab vs frame perfect shine wins the grab.
Frame perfect shield grab vs -1 frame perfect shine trades and the grab still happens.

"get good, scrub"
-Phaiyte about everything having to do with technical difficulty in countering Fox.

"There's counterplay if Fox isn't playing good"
-Phaiyte about everything having to do with technical difficulty in playing Fox.

Also, please don't double post.

 

[_A1]

Characters like Samus have Up OOS which is very effective in negating spacies' shield pressure. It's not easy to punish either; she can ledge cancel it, not to mention the hitbox itself.
There are characters that can deal with Fox's "OP shield pressure".

Grab armor plays a huge role. If a grab comes out the exact same time as shine, the grabber takes 5-8% while Fox/Falco at at their mercy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qna80MbcAAc
At 1:50 Shiz got grabbed right out of that. Somebody said something about shieldstun. This ain't 64.

 

[PootisKonga]

Watch me not care about your feelings or "opinions".

Then why are you even here in a discussion
You make no sense whatsoever
I'm sorry but you must be a troll of some kind

 

[;Juice-And-Eggs;]

The text that .you're presenting shows me that you're an actual scrub. There's nothing wrong with that, but don't try and convince people tha you know a single thing about how fighting games really work at a more than mediocre level.

If you're trying to make your point across in the internet, please, AT LEAST use less offensive words like "scrub" so that you'll maintain your credibility and people would take your posts a little bit more seriously.

But seriously, the way I see it, even though spacies are considered the best in Melee and possibly PM (who knows), at least consider how much effort the player have to put in order to use them in their maximum potential. Spacies require a high amount of inputs in a short amount of time and tech skill in order to make their pressure safe (look at the westballz pressure for example). If the player is not consistent with his or her inputs, they will be open for punishes. Not only that, they are very easy to be combo'd into very fatal percentages thanks to their high falling speed. To make things even worse, their recoveries are very predictable and easy to gimp. That, in my opinion, evens it out.

 

[Phaiyte]

"There's counterplay if Fox isn't playing good"
-Phaiyte about everything having to do with technical difficulty in playing Fox.

I have not said this.

If you're trying to make your point across in the internet, please, AT LEAST use less offensive words like "scrub" so that you'll maintain your credibility and people would take your posts a little bit more seriously.

If someone is offended by being labeled a scrub to note their low knowledge of how fighting games work then whatever I don't care.

 

[Foo]

I have not said this.

And I said that shine comes out on every single frame? This post is fitting coming from the man who made THIS post.

Every single person in this thread doing all this whining is literally ****ing stupid.

"OMG MY CHARACTER'S NOT THE MOST BRAINDEAD PICK IN THE GAME ANYMORE OHHH NOOOOO"

"OMG I ACTUALLY HAVE TO LEARN HOW TO TECH CHASE NOW WHHAAAAAAA"
- paraphrased, but actual quote in this thread lmao

"OMG I CAN'T JUST HOLD SOMEONE IN PLACE FOR 10 HITS TO LEAD INTO A FREE KO SHIIIIIIIIIIIT"

"OMG I ACTUALLY HAVE TO LEARN HOW TO PLAY NEUTRAL LIKE EVERYONE ELSE NOW"

You are all garbage and making everyone else look bad with your incompetence.

Anywho, you already admitted to the point I was making. Frame perfect shine pressure beats shield grab always and forever. Even if it didn't, you'd still have stupid levels of mixups. You'd have to make a 33-66 guess. Two out of 3 times, you get whacked. Name any character in the game can applies anywhere close to that amount of pressure.

 

[Phaiyte]

aahhhh the ol' ZSS cry thread. That was fun. We should do it again some time.

Anywho, you already admitted to the point I was making. Frame perfect shine pressure beats shield grab always and forever. Even if it didn't, you'd still have stupid levels of mixups. You'd have to make a 33-66 guess. Two out of 3 times, you get whacked. Name any character in the game can applies anywhere close to that amount of pressure.

wtf are you even on lol. I think you misread that post big time

 

[Foo]

wtf are you even on lol. I think you misread that post big time

Not sure how I could have misread this:

Frame perfect shield grab vs frame perfect shine wins the grab.
Frame perfect shield grab vs -1 frame perfect shine trades and the grab still happens.

You said frame perfect shine beats frame perfect shield grab, which is what I was saying, but you called me "literally ****ing ********" as I recall.

 

[PootisKonga]

But seriously, the way I see it, even though spacies are considered the best in Melee and possibly PM (who knows), at least consider how much effort the player have to put in order to use them in their maximum potential. Spacies require a high amount of inputs in a short amount of time and tech skill in order to make their pressure safe (look at the westballz pressure for example). If the player is not consistent with his or her inputs, they will be open for punishes. Not only that, they are very easy to be combo'd into very fatal percentages thanks to their high falling speed. To make things even worse, their recoveries are very predictable and easy to gimp. That, in my opinion, evens it out.

Oh, this again? Why should execution barrier be a reason to be better than the rest of the cast?

Take Bowser. He has similar weaknesses to the spacies: combo food, terrible recovery (*cough*worsethanFalco's*cough*), and he is difficult to play. Not in technical ability, mind you, but because his weaknesses are difficult to overcome once you get into mid-level play as he gets comboed for days by literally anyone but maybe himself without the ability to escape pressure via speed or a Shine. Armor, KO power (Pretty sure Bowser's Usmash kills later than Fox's though) and weight are his only saving graces, while spacies have Shine, projectiles, speed, etc.

Tl;dr If spacies are allowed to be the best because of execution barrier, then Bowser also deserves at least that much because his barrier is roughly equivalent. It's flawed logic.

 

[Vashimus]

Characters like Samus have Up OOS which is very effective in negating spacies' shield pressure. It's not easy to punish either; she can ledge cancel it, not to mention the hitbox itself.

Except Samus's Up-B is invincible on startup so it beats everything OoS. Not every character has that luxury.

 

[Deleted member]

No one here, from what I've been reading, wants spacies to get completely neutered. Everyone just wants spacies to receive a well needed nerf. They still need one. I suggest shine and lasers to be the biggest changes.

First off, we have to quantify "broken". Broken simply means that some rules of the game are broken. A broken aspect "breaks" standard game play. This does not necessarily mean that said aspect is too powerful for balance, although this interpretation is often synonymous with the prior because sidestepping the rules of a closed system is often very powerful. Fox is a broken character because smash is a game fundamentally based on movement, and Fox always has the advantage of being able to choose when to attack. This aspect of Fox is incredibly powerful and breaks standard game play in a way that only Sonic and himself are privy to. Sonic is also broken, and until his run speed is normalized he always will be.

However, this does not mean that Fox and Sonic are too powerful for balance. That said, I do believe that both characters were too powerful in 3.02, in part due to them breaking game play. And as of 3.5, I am unsure about Sonic so far, but Fox is definitely still too powerful compared to the rest of the cast. So long as you play Fox correctly, all of his options are "safe options". This extends to the point where if you feel some option with Fox is not safe, it's an excellent early indicator that you shouldn't be using that option at all.

Fox has been the elephant in the room for every version of PM since its release. The development team wants to preserve the classical character traits of Fox from Melee, but this is a losing position as people increasingly realize how badly designed he is. I would like a mid-tier Fox, like actually 21st out of 41. Or at least not automatically top 5 in every version.

As an aside, the Fox execution barrier is total bull****. If you play good clean smash with Fox like you would every other character your win rate will simply go up.

 

[Phaiyte]

Not sure how I could have misread this:


You said frame perfect shine beats frame perfect shield grab, which is what I was saying, but you called me "literally ****ing ********" as I recall.

That reads as the grabber winning in both scenarios.
It's like you actually stopped reading at "shine wins" and kicked back in your computer chair like "yeah man I totally got that dude (;^_^)v"

That's just sad lol

 

[Binary Clone]

That reads as the grabber winning in both scenarios.

wtf are you even on lol. I think you misread that post big time

Frame perfect shield grab vs frame perfect shine wins the grab.

You know, somehow your phrasing indicates that when a frame perfect shield grab meets with a frame perfect shine, the shine wins over the grab.

Clearly, though, your mastery of the english language is just beyond us mere scrubs.

 

[TimeSmash]

Oh, this again? Why should execution barrier be a reason to be better than the rest of the cast?

Take Bowser. He has similar weaknesses to the spacies: combo food, terrible recovery (*cough*worsethanFalco's*cough*), and he is difficult to play. Not in technical ability, mind you, but because his weaknesses are difficult to overcome once you get into mid-level play as he gets comboed for days by literally anyone but maybe himself without the ability to escape pressure via speed or a Shine. Armor, KO power (Pretty sure Bowser's Usmash kills later than Fox's though) and weight are his only saving graces, while spacies have Shine, projectiles, speed, etc.

Tl;dr If spacies are allowed to be the best because of execution barrier, then Bowser also deserves at least that much because his barrier is roughly equivalent. It's flawed logic.

I'd have to respectfully disagree with you here. Not that I think spacies deserve to have the top due to technical skill, but just because a character has multiple shortcomings doesn't mean they should be allowed to excel in a tier list. If anything, it would mean spacies should be altered or Bowser should be altered so MUs like that aren't unwinnable. It'd be more of changing Bowser probably because he's combo food for so many people

While the spacies are some of the most technical characters among the cast in terms of timing, there are other characters who also have technical demands as well. Take Ivysaur, for example. While not the best in aerial mobility, she has a couple powerful moves, many of which require precise timing and spacing, but not exactly dexterity. Take things like Dair and Uair. You can be as fast as you want but you need more knowledge of spacing rather than speed to get the most out of those moves. The same goes for sweetspot UpB. Moreover, Ivy requires thinking when it comes to Synthesis use and how and when to charge Solarbeam. Ivy isn't and most likely won't be in the top tiers, her playstyle is not extreme in terms of tech skill, but that doesn't mean just because some characters have a harder time pulling off certain things they should automatically be best tier. That makes zero sense

 

[Foo]

If you're trying to make your point across in the internet, please, AT LEAST use less offensive words like "scrub" so that you'll maintain your credibility and people would take your posts a little bit more seriously.

But seriously, the way I see it, even though spacies are considered the best in Melee and possibly PM (who knows), at least consider how much effort the player have to put in order to use them in their maximum potential. Spacies require a high amount of inputs in a short amount of time and tech skill in order to make their pressure safe (look at the westballz pressure for example). If the player is not consistent with his or her inputs, they will be open for punishes. Not only that, they are very easy to be combo'd into very fatal percentages thanks to their high falling speed. To make things even worse, their recoveries are very predictable and easy to gimp. That, in my opinion, evens it out.

Technical barrier is no excuse to make certain characters straight up better than others. That means every single player who is taking the game seriously is supposed to pick that one character, or just be at a disadvantage. Fox doesn't even have a bad recovery, anyway. His recovery is far from the shortest, far from the most predictable, and far from the worst. It isn't GOOD, but it's certainly not bad enough to justify being either great or the best at almost everything else.

Characters like Samus have Up OOS which is very effective in negating spacies' shield pressure. It's not easy to punish either; she can ledge cancel it, not to mention the hitbox itself.
There are characters that can deal with Fox's "OP shield pressure".

Just because some characters can deal with it doesn't mean it is justified.

That reads as the grabber winning in both scenarios.
It's like you actually stopped reading at "shine wins" and kicked back in your computer chair like "yeah man I totally got that dude (;^_^)v"

That's just sad lol

wut? In what world does "Frame perfect shield grab vs frame perfect shine wins the grab." I mean, "shine wins the grab" is far from correct grammar, but I just assumed you meant to say "beats" instead.

Also, explain this. You say frame perfect shield grab TRADES with 1 frame off frame perfect shine pressure. Grab armor only lasts for one frame, how would that be possible?

 

[Phaiyte]

Frame perfect shield grab vs frame perfect shine wins the grab.
Frame perfect shield grab vs -1 frame perfect shine trades and the grab still happens.

 

[Foo]

Yes, you said if the shine was 1 frame off perfect, it trades and the grab goes through. That would mean if the shine was done one frame faster, it would beat grab...

 

[PootisKonga]

that doesn't mean just because some characters have a harder time pulling off certain things they should automatically be best tier. That makes zero sense

Exactly, that's what I was pointing out

 

[Phaiyte]

Also, explain this. You say frame perfect shield grab TRADES with 1 frame off frame perfect shine pressure. Grab armor only lasts for one frame, how would that be possible?

The grabber takes the damage but still gets the grab and doesn't go anywhere nor suffers hitstun or anything like that.

 

[Phaiyte]

Yes, you said if the shine was 1 frame off perfect, it trades and the grab goes through. That would mean if the shine was done one frame faster, it would beat grab...

No you fool. If the shine is one frame late that means you get the grab without the damage. The shine doesn't get to happen at all.

 

[_A1]

Oh, this again? Why should execution barrier be a reason to be better than the rest of the cast?

Take Bowser. He has similar weaknesses to the spacies: combo food, terrible recovery (*cough*worsethanFalco's*cough*), and he is difficult to play. Not in technical ability, mind you, but because his weaknesses are difficult to overcome once you get into mid-level play as he gets comboed for days by literally anyone but maybe himself without the ability to escape pressure via speed or a Shine. Armor, KO power (Pretty sure Bowser's Usmash kills later than Fox's though) and weight are his only saving graces, while spacies have Shine, projectiles, speed, etc.

Tl;dr If spacies are allowed to be the best because of execution barrier, then Bowser also deserves at least that much because his barrier is roughly equivalent. It's flawed logic.

I picked up Bowser for 1 hour and I did very well my friends who played spacies for months at least.
I guarantee you that Bowser has the tools to keep up. He can escape pressure with Up OOS and armor Nair which beats out spacies' Nair. Bowser combos spacies just as hard as spacies combo him. He can gimp them really well too.

 

[TimeSmash]

Exactly, that's what I was pointing out

I might have misread your Bowser argument then haha. Be a dear and wipe the egg off my face

As it stands that post is decent from what I thought you were saying.

 

[4tlas]

No you fool. If the shine is one frame late that means you get the grab without the damage. The shine doesn't get to happen at all.

Right, but you said when shine is 1 frame earlier than the "trading" scenario, grab still wins. That doesn't make sense. Even if you worded it as "frame perfect grab vs frame perfect shine [sic] wins the grab", it still wouldn't make sense.

 

[Phaiyte]

edit: placeholder for something else

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

I picked up Bowser for 1 hour and I did very well my friends who played spacies for months at least.
I guarantee you that Bowser has the tools to keep up. He can escape pressure with Up OOS and armor Nair which beats out spacies' Nair. Bowser combos spacies just as hard as spacies combo him. He can gimp them really well too.

If people don't know how to play a matchup, then it's pretty likely that they'll have a disadvantage that a spacy who does know how to play the matchup will not have.

 

[Foo]

No you fool. If the shine is one frame late that means you get the grab without the damage. The shine doesn't get to happen at all.

but... but... you said it traded if it was one frame late... I... I give up. Your mastery of language and fabrication are clearly FAR beyond my own and I concede, you win. God, but this means...

Years and years of space animal metagame has been destroyed at your hands... Shine against shield doesn't actually work...

*runs into a melee tournament venue screaming*

WE FINALLY DID IT GUYS. IT'S OVER. JUST MASH A. JUST SHIELD AND MASH A.

*Maniacally laughing*

WE CAN FINALLY BEAT THEM GUYS. MASH A! MAAAAAASH AAAAAAA.

*between sobs*

MASH A.... MASH A... BEAT THE SHINES... MASH A....

*runs up to and hugs commentators*

WE CAN JUST MASH A GUYS! It's over....

*runs out of venue and off of nearby balcony*

 

[Soft Serve]

Did you know you can spam the **** out of the A button while you're in that shield and you'll automatically grab as soon as you're able to? Frame perfect double shines still get shield grabbed. Still a 2 frame execution vs a 1 frame execution. Try again.

This is just wrong, and proves you either dont know what you are talking about or you are trolling. Frame perfect double shines have 2 frames of no lag between the first 2 shines, and 3-4 on any consecutive double shines due to staling and 1 frame of air time. Yes, Fox can only put out shines every 8 seconds which is 1 frame slower than most grabs, and effectively 2 frames slower because grab armor. but shield stun is a thing, so you are just horribly wrong and should just stop talking.

edit edit: to clarify grab armor thing, grab armor was in Melee too, as rizner said below, the thing is Shine was invincible on the hit frame so it would just you know, ignore the armor.

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Double_shine
http://smashboards.com/threads/shield-pressure-frame-data.278616/
http://smashboards.com/threads/falco-shield-pressure-data.294444/

If you want to make stupid arguments about spacing/concepts at least be correct with the frame data.


@ Foo I admit I still dont know a lot about ZSS, although I've been labbing/playing with our regions ZSS for like 3 weeks, she definetly has tech chase throws man. Pivot blaster was stupid.

 

[Rizner]

All of this talk about winning grab vs shine is character dependant. Like, some characters have 9 frames to grab. Some have 7. You can't say that the grab is an option for everyone.

Also the grab armor thing exists in melee, but when it's the same frame there the grabber just wins without taking damage. So it's worse for the grabber in pm, but I will agree that in both scenarios getting a grab should be the better trade.

 

[Binary Clone]

edit: placeholder for something else

Best post so far.

This is just wrong, and proves you either dont know what you are talking about or you are trolling. Frame perfect double shines have 2 frames of no lag between the first 2 shines, and 3-4 on any consecutive double shines due to staling and 1 frame of air time. Yes, Fox can only put out shines every 8 seconds which is 1 frame slower than most grabs, and effectively 2 frames slower because grab armor. but shield stun is a thing, so you are just horribly wrong and should just stop talking.

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Double_shine
http://smashboards.com/threads/shield-pressure-frame-data.278616/
http://smashboards.com/threads/falco-shield-pressure-data.294444/

If you want to make stupid arguments about spacing/concepts at least be correct with the frame data.

Plus the fact that even if he was right, there are still MUs where tether grabs take longer to come out, thus Fox would have perfect pressure, right?

 

[_A1]

If people don't know how to play a matchup, then it's pretty likely that they'll have a disadvantage that a spacy who does know how to play the matchup will not have.

You're right, but you still can't deny that I owned them without any experience using Bowser.

 

[Mystic-]

I'm not the most knowledgeable about the current tier list in PM (not that I really think anyone is...even if the game is perfectly balanced of course the characters who are most developed and changed least will do best at first) but all I'd like to add to this argument is that Fox being "harder" than other characters isn't nearly as good of an argument as it is in Melee. While I hated how 3.02 Diddy and Mario were so faceroll yet so incredibly effective, Fox doesn't have nearly the execution barrier he does in Melee. If he's gotta be nerfed I'd do what @ Soft Serve has been saying instead of all the people salty about getting bopped by spacie players that are better than them lol. At the same time it's funny how people think Fox is so good yet ignore Wolf. Iono I'm just excited to see the 3.5 meta develop I guess (Also all you guys freaking out about multishine on shield are prob just intimidated by da bloop. Can you not just di it then shield grab like in maylay? Or maybe the people I play with aren't frame perfect or something lol we ain't Hax)

side note: you guys keep talking about some guy using hateful language and stuff. I probably have him on ignore but why doesn't everyone else just do that?