I just watched ShizWiz's Falco get grabbed by Marth out of an attempted double shine.
What do you have to say about that.
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I disagree with how 3.5 approached balance.
- Thread starter DraconisMarch
- Start date
What do you have to say about that.
I want to say that you are just trolling, living up to the texas Melee/smashboards reputation, and I hope you have fun with people taking the bait. Everyone knows you are wrong lol.
/ignored
It was really never a good argument in the first place, really. And Wolf's shine isn't as complained about because it can be crouch cancelled. That alone means fewer people complain about it.I'm not the most knowledgeable about the current tier list in PM (not that I really think anyone is...even if the game is perfectly balanced of course the characters who are most developed and changed least will do best at first) but all I'd like to add to this argument is that Fox being "harder" than other characters isn't nearly as good of an argument as it is in Melee. While I hated how 3.02 Diddy and Mario were so faceroll yet so incredibly effective, Fox doesn't have nearly the execution barrier he does in Melee. If he's gotta be nerfed I'd do what @Soft Serve has been saying instead of all the people salty about getting bopped by spacie players that are better than them lol. At the same time it's funny how people think Fox is so good yet ignore Wolf. Iono I'm just excited to see the 3.5 meta develop I guess
(Also all you guys freaking out about multishine on shield are prob just intimidated by da bloop. Can you not just di it then shield grab like in maylay? Or maybe the people I play with aren't frame perfect or something lol we ain't Hax)
side note: you guys keep talking about some guy using hateful language and stuff. I probably have him on ignore but why doesn't everyone else just do that?
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Did you not see the link I posted? He saw it unlike you.
Not to mention every single person on this forum has probably seen it at least more than once. I expected it though. No one in the smash community changes their mind based on factual evidence. All they care about is their own biased opinions, and that's why they never become better than mediocre.
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;Juice-And-Eggs;
Smash Rookie
That is pretty true, I respect your counter statement about that (and @Foo). I was kind of referring to street fighter 3rd Strike and 4, where you have to correctly link your attacks or else your pressure/combos will have gaps and be easily escaped and punished with a DP or something. Regardless, I still believe that Fox and Falco are pretty much fine just the way they are in this version simply because everyone in the cast are viable (or silly) enough to beat them. It's all about how the player play/know the matchup, since everybody has their own distinctive style of playing. This is kind of a given in all fighting games. Besides, the 3.5 meta is still young and developing, at least give it time before the players discover some tech that will change how the game will be played (good or bad).
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How can you tell? Because he got grabbed?
Not frame perfect, its hard to tell because old recording+youtube running at 30fps, but shiz clearly left the ground a good amount. You can also see clearly if you watch like 10 seconds before that that M2k has been shield DIing almost every Shine on his shield, and the shine was stale so it would have less sheild stun. The double shine also just didn't hit him.
I'm confused why you want to call me out on this though, I'm not really arguing if theres counterplay, if tech bariers/execution times on either side make it fair or whatever, I was just trying to clarify facts, ie that you cant grab people out of perfect double shines, your only option is to roll.
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That grab was definitely fast enough to wreck an incoming shine.
SpiderMad
Smash Master
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The 2nd shine didn't even hit in that video
*Falco's shine is smaller than Fox's too
Even being not frame perfect (you see he becomes aerial, instead of the beginning shine frames landing him back on the ground), you can see the 2nd shine comes out before his grab does (and we don't know how many frames past frame perfect his grab was either).
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The shine I saw hit. He just didn't take any damage because grab armor. The grab would have won regardless.
4tlas
Smash Lord
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If that hit holy **** that's a huge range, nerf plox
I mean, when even the most technical Melee foxes in the world flub their **** fairly often in tourney (it seems like the new Hax Dash is dying from an attempted invincible ledge dash ROFL) it actually does matter quite a bit. I personally think this 20xx business is a ridiculous meme more akin to the war of the worlds radio broadcast than anything else and that Falco is a better solo tournament main than Fox in maylay. Humans are inherently limited in the tech skill department. If we are assuming TAS then Fox's uthrow -> uair is no longer really a thing (with sdi and proper di it's not nearly as guaranteed as people seem to think) and all sorts of other shenanigans that get way crazier and further removed from reality than that. And idk if we are talking design or what but I legit think Wolf is better than Fox. Anyways I'm out of this thread, if spacies are nerfed it'll just mean a better match up spread for glorious PM Falcon :D
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I kinda wish this thread ended after umbreon posted like 6 pages ago
FlamingForce
Smash Journeyman
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Fox is capable of taking away the sdi option entirely, it would be a very real thing.
SpiderMad
Smash Master
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No it missed, grab armor I believe is on the actual grab frames (unless you're talking about things like Brawl Olimar) which just means it'll grab'em instead of getting hit; and PM changed it to at least give the grabber damage. The grab boxes come like 2 or more frames after the shine, which again we don't know if it's frame perfect shield grab, and how stale the shine is. Beyond this being different if this was about Fox.
PM eventually reduced Falco's shine aesthetic to better match it's hitbox.
Am I being double Texas'd?
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Feel free to leave whenever you want
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qna80MbcAAc
at 1:57, just a few moments after the timespot you linked, shiz did a proper double shine and beat out M2k's shield grab.
both @ P Phaiyte and @
_A1
are just talking in circle because they want to argue without actually saying anything relevant or addressing points and facts.
at 1:57, just a few moments after the timespot you linked, shiz did a proper double shine and beat out M2k's shield grab.
both @ P Phaiyte and @
_A1
are just talking in circle because they want to argue without actually saying anything relevant or addressing points and facts.gladly lol. Theres nothing produtive left possible from this threadFeel free to leave whenever you want
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4tlas
Smash Lord
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Exactly. The argument is based on multiple conditionals, of which all have to be proven true before you can use them as legit evidence. Just as the grab could be mistimed here, so too could the shines have been mistimed (or mispositioned) in your video example.
Also I was just joking, SpiderMad. But that is an interesting factoid =)
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SpiderMad
Smash Master
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What's your results? It should align with the grabber getting hit by the 2nd shine, though I forget if Fox or Falco's unstaled frame perfect double shine keeps them in shield stun for the 2nd shine before they can action the grab.
And are you referring to PM's debug menu? You'll just want to keep in mind the lack of shine's frame of intangibility then, and grab armor giving the attacker at least the damage; in comparisons to Melee.
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Searing_Sorrow
Smash Journeyman
This has to have been derailed by trolling. The frame data already proved that frame perfect double shine can not grab an opponent.Think g&w oos up b was only thing that worked, though could have been more moves, that thread was so long ago.
Frame 1 hitbox Up-b OoS's, and up-bs with armor/invincibility get out of double shines. So yeah GnW's gets out, Snakes might, Bowser's might, Samus's does, etc.
TimeSmash
Smash Champion
Nah he done
He more done than my wife cooking a steak done
He more done than my wife cooking a steak done
4tlas
Smash Lord
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Do you like your steak burnt?
TimeSmash
Smash Champion
On the sake of going off-topic, I like my steak medium, I cook it myself, and I'm gay so no wife is in the picture whatsoever.
Now about Zero Suit Samus...
Now about Zero Suit Samus...
MechWarriorNY
Smash Master
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Warning Received
Yes, about Samus.
Blank Mauser
Smash Champion
Seriously guys. There is literally a 20xx hack pack for Melee that has a CPU programmed to do frame-perfect shield grabs. If you double shine it, it will get hit. If you want to prove yourself wrong, YOU can go into debug mode just to come back and tell us we were right. You can not be grabbed for double-shining perfectly... and double-shine isn't even that hard.
I recall Hax saying frame perfect double shine catches buffered roll. If the shine is non-stale you even get an extra frame.
Yeah I wanted to clarify this but I couldn't find the thread, I'm pretty sure Fox's double shine only has a 1 frame gap, but I wasn't positive and the discussion shifted to falco
Magus420
Smash Master
On perfect multishines you can't roll between ground shine->air shine, but you can between the shines after that unless they do air shine->no land->air shine that can't be JCed since they don't have a DJ. It takes 2 extra frames after it becomes JCable to touch the ground again after air shine to be able to do a ground jump out of it. Fox's drops in shieldstun immediately after being staled since 5 dmg does 4, but 4 does 3. Both 8 and 7 damage do 5 for Falco so his needs to be staled more to drop in stun. Wolf is the same as Fox at 5 damage but his jump is 4 instead of 3.
Since the range on Falco's is so short you can shield DI it then be out of range of the next shine but able to grab, even with crappy grab range like Ganon's. Doesn't really work with Fox or Wolf since the range is much larger.
Code:
*Fox*
Ground->Air 1 frame to act between
Air->Air 3 frames
Ground->JC Grab 5 frames
Air->JC Grab 7 frames
*Falco*
Ground->Air 2 frames
Air->Air 4 frames
Ground->JC Grab 4 frames
Air->JC Grab 6 frames
*Wolf*
Ground->Air 2 frames
Air->Air 4 frames
Ground->JC Grab 5 frames
Air->JC Grab 7 frames
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