I disagree with how 3.5 approached balance.

[PootisKonga]

@ P Phaiyte I didn't realize some people could throw such a fit over whether or not a frame 1 projectile reflecting jump-cancellable non-CCable combo-escaping combo-starting aerial mobility stalling semi-spike should be changed (read: not necessarily nerfed) for balance purposes, forgoing the entire idea just to tell someone, who for all you know has more experience with fighting and playing spacies, to essentially "Git gud".

Hell, I never said it was OP. To me, it's too versatile a tool on characters who are already decent, but not OP. The spacies' current glass cannon designs don't really fit as-is because optimal play in a match with a spacie mostly consists of either player having almost no options once a combo starts on either fighter.

 

[Binary Clone]

Phaiyte's entire argument at this point basically boils down to this.

After saying "Show me a high level match where Fox gets in with shine rather than n/dair more than twice in a set. I actually ****ing dare you lmao. Moving that far in without a hitbox protecting you will only get you jabbed, grabbed, ftilted, etc." someone showed him literally exactly that in a match between two of the best players ever and he just backpedals and says it proves his point because a frame-one punish from one of the fastest characters in the game is still the other player's fault, and thus completely fair.

@ PootisKonga , do you have any ideas as to how it could be changed? I mean, simply making it frame-2 or CCable would be a fairly big change in some ways.

 

[Phaiyte]

Phaiyte's entire argume nt at this point basically boils down to this.

After saying "Show me a high level match where Fox gets in with shine rather than n/dair more than twice in a set. I actually ****ing dare you lmao. Moving that far in without a hitbox protecting you will only get you jabbed, grabbed, ftilted, etc." someone showed him literally exactly that in a match between two of the best players ever and he just backpedals and says it proves his point because a frame-one punish from one of the fastest characters in the game is still the other player's fault, and thus completely fair.

@ PootisKonga , do you have any ideas as to how it could be changed? I mean, simply making it frame-2 or CCable would be a fairly big change in some ways.

No they did not. They attempted to and they were very wrong.

 

[PootisKonga]

IMO CCable is the best way to start without changing much, as Wolf's is nowhere near as silly based on that alone. If deemed necessary, next would be changing the knockback angle in some way so Falco has a slightly harder time following up at high percents and Fox doesn't have the best gimp. Fox's could either be a meteor or send at a slightly higher angle. Any change beyond that would be based on how these changes affect the meta.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Smash both sticks in the same direction when falco shines to make it harder for Falco to be FALCO

 

[skellitorman]

I have heard of many suggestions but I'll post this one since I haven't heard this one yet, although I am sure that others have thought of this. Furthermore I am interested in hearing others' opinions:

Only if blocked, Shine can no longer jump cancel.

This way, it would retain all of its reward on hit, and it won't affect a player's timing, but it would have an equivalent risk on a grounded opponent. Players would then have to hitconfirm or whiff punish or counter like other characters do, except they can do so with a 1 frame attack which has very high utility.

It seems to me that most people's concern with Shine is not it's reward on hit (although Shine is very powerful), but the lack of risk involved under most circumstances, combined with the overwhelming mixup potential against the opponent who attempts any form of proper defense. This change would definitely address that.

 

[Soft Serve]

I'm really glad all the stupid spacie talk is here now and not in the tier list thread

 

[MegaMissingno]

The only things I'm not happy with are Zelda and Puff. Zelda didn't just get nerfed, she got scrapped and redesigned from scratch. That's a total slap in the face to everyone who mained her. I don't recognize this character anymore, and I have no interest in relearning the new one. I don't mind nerfs if truly needed, but that's not what this was. I just lost my former main.

Puff, well, where the hell are my damn Puff buffs already? She may have indirectly gotten her edgeguarding back, but she still really struggles at neutral in many matchups. It's like Armada's Young Link is everywhere. I don't know why the PMBR won't do anything about her. She needs a better answer to explosives and other projectiles that can't simply be swatted down with a nair.

Also, how does anyone seriously think spacies need even more nerfs still? They've already been nerfed in almost every patch, 3.5 included. Shine lost its frame 1 intangibility quite a while ago too. How much more do you want? That's plenty enough, keep going and you'll end up wrecking the Melee foundation and driving all the veterans away. At a certain point you have to remember to keep some respect for the things that made Melee Melee. If you hate shine that much, go play Brawl or Smash 4.

 

[PootisKonga]

Frame 1 intangibility wasn't what made shine so versatile, it is barely any worse in PM than it is in Melee.

I have nothing but respect for good Fox and Falco mains, especially Melee veterans, but what makes them so much more special in the PM community? Like you said earlier, Zelda players had their main changed entirely in order to properly fit within PM's design goals, with which balance comes later, and despite all of the initial outcry they are not changing unless balance must come into play for the next patch. What makes Fox or Falco immune to these changes if balance or design goals end up dictating such a change? If you stop maining a character based on a few changes you don't agree with, that's on you, not the PMDT. Melee veterans deserve respect, but they shouldn't get any sort of privilege in balancing a separate game.

PM is for those who legitimately want to play PM itself, not those who just want as close to a 1:1 Melee with more good characters as possible, and if you're willing to stop based on a handful of changes to one character regardless of how balanced they and the game as a whole have become because of it, then you were never really a PM player to begin with.

The nerfs to spacies so far have been rather negligible on the grand scale of things. Falco's Dair change was arguably the greatest one aside from the frame 1 intangibility nerf to shine.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I'm really glad all the stupid spacie talk is here now and not in the tier list thread

Give me a minute

 

[Phaiyte]

Y'all want an actually good suggestion for Fox shine to be changed? Directly horizontal knock back instead of somewhat down. This alleviates the semi-spike 'problem' some, however, in exchange though that also means no one lighter than Marth gets knocked down and can't escape via good tech roll. However again, this will probably inherently change how far a character is knocked back on grounded hit (more), making SDI more effective and making it ever so slightly harder for Fox to follow up. A little shield push back wouldn't hurt too much either, but you have shield DI for that now so w/e.

Perfect.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Y'all want an actually good suggestion for Fox shine to be changed? Directly horizontal knock back instead of somewhat down. This alleviates the semi-spike 'problem' some, however, in exchange though that also means no one lighter than Marth gets knocked down and can't escape via good tech roll. However again, this will probably inherently change how far a character is knocked back on grounded hit (more), making SDI more effective and making it ever so slightly harder for Fox to follow up. A little shield push back wouldn't hurt too much either, but you have shield DI for that now so w/e.

Perfect.

This is just nitpicking. Fox's Shine already has perfectly horizontal knockback (angle 0) iirc, it's gravity that makes it a semi-spike in the air. What you're asking for would translate to a slightly higher angle (at least 45 degree for it not to be a semi-spike in the air) and I'm not sure how that would affect Fox on-stage.

 

[Deleted member]

@ P Phaiyte I didn't realize some people could throw such a fit over whether or not a frame 1 projectile reflecting jump-cancellable non-CCable combo-escaping combo-starting aerial mobility stalling semi-spike should be changed (read: not necessarily nerfed) for balance purposes, forgoing the entire idea just to tell someone, who for all you know has more experience with fighting and playing spacies, to essentially "Git gud".

Hell, I never said it was OP. To me, it's too versatile a tool on characters who are already decent, but not OP. The spacies' current glass cannon designs don't really fit as-is because optimal play in a match with a spacie mostly consists of either player having almost no options once a combo starts on either fighter.

god and you have a new join date?

edit:

if you want to balance spacies, remove their ability to choose when to attack indefinitely. it really is that simple.

 

[Strong Badam]

Y'all want an actually good suggestion for Fox shine to be changed? Directly horizontal knock back instead of somewhat down. This alleviates the semi-spike 'problem' some, however, in exchange though that also means no one lighter than Marth gets knocked down and can't escape via good tech roll. However again, this will probably inherently change how far a character is knocked back on grounded hit (more), making SDI more effective and making it ever so slightly harder for Fox to follow up. A little shield push back wouldn't hurt too much either, but you have shield DI for that now so w/e.

Perfect.

Its angle is 0, which is why it's so effective for edgeguarding. Raising that would make its hitstun land cancel, though, changing grounded followups quite a bit.

 

[Phaiyte]

Angle 2 up. There you go.

 

[GHNeko]

Angle 2 up. There you go.

It's not that simple lol.

 

[Phaiyte]

It's not that simple lol.

Yes it is.

Everyone's crying for a "change", and that's exactly what it is. The positive angle knockback should give you the ability to either crouch cancel or land quickly with a jab.

It is exactly that simple.

 

[Ace55]

I have heard of many suggestions but I'll post this one since I haven't heard this one yet, although I am sure that others have thought of this. Furthermore I am interested in hearing others' opinions:

Only if blocked, Shine can no longer jump cancel.

This way, it would retain all of its reward on hit, and it won't affect a player's timing, but it would have an equivalent risk on a grounded opponent. Players would then have to hitconfirm or whiff punish or counter like other characters do, except they can do so with a 1 frame attack which has very high utility.

It seems to me that most people's concern with Shine is not it's reward on hit (although Shine is very powerful), but the lack of risk involved under most circumstances, combined with the overwhelming mixup potential against the opponent who attempts any form of proper defense. This change would definitely address that.

That would honestly be incredibly counter intuitive for every spacie player ever. Pressuring shields with shine is some deeply rooted stuff.

 

[Phaiyte]

None of these weeblords will ever be happy until Fox is removed from the game entirely and the game is left with 40 no skill characters lmao.

 

[Ace55]

None of these weeblords will ever be happy until Fox is removed from the game entirely and the game is left with 40 no skill characters lmao.

Yeah man, I mean remember that version where Fox was a totally reasonable character only barely better than other reasonable characters? They just wouldn't stop complaining.

Oh wait that ****ing version doesn't exist.

 

[Akhenderson]

Shine pressure is definitely something that shouldnt be removed from the spacies because it's a pretty integral part of their playstyle. My only gripe with it, is that shine gives too much for one move.

You know what would be cool nerf to the Spacies? Ammo to the blaster. Something not too ridiculously low like but a reasonable amount like 20 shots. This way, they can't always play a continuous defensive style forcing the opponent to approach, but it's still enough to tack on quite a bit of damage before running out. (This should be possible to do right? I mean, Snake has an ammo system)

 

[Szion]

Ah, the lucario nerfs..double team WHY. WHY DONT YOU REFRESH.. e.e

 

[PootisKonga]

None of these weeblords will ever be happy until Fox is removed from the game entirely and the game is left with 40 no skill characters lmao.

Please try to be reasonable in your replies. I'd rather not have to brand you a troll and disregard your opinions entirely.

 

[MegaMissingno]

Yeah man, I mean remember that version where Fox was a totally reasonable character only barely better than other reasonable characters? They just wouldn't stopped complaining.

Oh wait that ****ing version doesn't exist.

Yeah he was never better.

 

[Rᴏb]

Never take the dude with 30 mains seriously

 

[PootisKonga]

Yeah he was never better.

I don't remember who said it, but let me tell you something.

Spacies can dictate the pace of a match. If you move in on them, they have ample tools to reset to neutral/counter attack (shine, amazing tech roll, retreating nair/bair, and so on). If you try to bait them out, they can wear you down with lasers. On top of it all, spacies have above-average recoveries. Earning a win off of a tight, defensive spacy disproportionately rests in the failure of the spacy player executing reliable/unpunishable punishes. In other words, spacies don't have discernible weaknesses.

I understand that they can be combo'd easily. This is not a good rebuttal:

1) Even a top spacy player will make a few mistakes in a match. I'll presume this as a hard truth. These mistakes will often lead to eating combos. My assertion is that these combos don't adequately strack up against the strengths spacies have in every other aspect of their game; they don't take enough damage or die quickly enough compared to how much they dominate in every other way.

2) Getting combo'd easily is a poor weakness from a game design perspective. I don't think it's good game design for a character to have one major flaw that leads to long, non-interactive stretches of game play.

If 3.0's Pit's arrows behaved like Fox's lasers and his shield behaved like Fox's shine, I'm pretty sure fans would clamour at the PMDT to completely rework him.

Let's be honest here - no matter how fun spacies are to play, they're not being preserved because they're exemplars of supreme game design.

Edit: Nope, this came from a different thread

Edit2: This post is credited to @Rhubarbo

 

[JOE!]

Just tossing stuff out there, but what if Shining a shield pushed the spacie backwards a bit like a bunch of other moves do on shield for some folks?

They would still have all the same properties except an increased distance for a followup on both ends where they could still jump towards the opponent for more pressure, WD out and go for something, whatever. The key point here is that it should allow a *smidge* of space for more interaction. With a bit more space, the spacie player can still JC and go towards the shield or even WD forward for something, but the opponent isn't as locked into their options either where the only option was to try a frame-perfect grab/up B or buffer a roll.

 

[shairn]

Isn't shield pushback linked to damage or KB?

 

[TreK]

shine pressure is definitely something that shouldnt be removed from the spacies because it's a pretty integral part of their playstyle.

Just because a move adds depth and technicality doesn't mean we should welcome it if it endengers the game's balance.

In example, having two bananas was an integral part of DDK's playstyle in 3.0. It added depth to the character and it was much more draining both physically and mentally take full advantage of two bananas instead of just one.
In the very same way, neutral B was an integral part of Ivy's playstyle in 2.6b. It gave her a much better oos game, extended combos, could be used as shield pressure, and more. It made this character a whole lot more versatile.
ZSS' dash cancel blaster, DK's jump cancel dash attack, Mewtwo's tp-float, Sonic's pretty much entire moveset... Many have made such a sacrifice for the greater good already.

Saying that Fox has plot armor is an observation, not an opinion. Should Fox have plot armor is the real question.
and I am in no way qualified to answer it

 

[JOE!]

Isn't shield pushback linked to damage or KB?

Im not exactly sure how it works tbh. Ive just noticed that some characters / interactions have different pushes, like one attack will push a shielding foe while another similar attack pushes the attacker back when shielded instead.

 

[SpiderMad]

Saying that Fox has plot armor is an observation, not an opinion. Should Fox have plot armor is the real question.
and I am in no way qualified to answer it

My opinion is yes to a degree.

 

[Stalled]

^^Don't quote me on this but I'd assume that has to do with relative character weights. Ganon fair will push the defender in most cases for example.

In regards to shines, it sounds as though the conversation is solely about fox and not falco or wolf. Am I just not reading carefully enough or is that the case?

 

[PootisKonga]

Wolf's Shine is not as obnoxious as Fox's and Falco's due to the weak 45 degree KB angle and the ability to be crouch cancelled

 

[batistabus]

Zelda didn't just get nerfed, she got scrapped and redesigned from scratch. That's a total slap in the face to everyone who mained her. I don't recognize this character anymore, and I have no interest in relearning the new one.

I don't know how else to say this, and I don't think you're being very bad about it so I don't mean to offend you personally, but I just have one response to complaints like that - ****ing get over it.

We're all beta testers at this point. If a character has a **** design and needs to be scrapped, then the developers shouldn't be afraid to do that for fear of upsetting some fans. Hell, a few other characters could use this treatment.

 

[JOE!]

The character I played in brawl got sliced in 3. Cry me a river.

 

[kaizo13]

So Armada just 6-0'd leffen's fox

it's still amazes me to see how far Armada has pushed peach...it's part of why i can't understand why people are so adamant about wanting to nerf fox even further. None of the characters in PM have ever come close to reaching that level of expertise, and they won't for a long time. Yes you are going to loose to fox along the way, but what is your character really capable of?

You'll never really know until you put the time in. It seems like everyone nowadays wants quick results, even more so now that we have the ability to shape and form characters. for me, growing up and learning smash...the most challenging things were always the most fun and exciting to me.
I honestly think it's best to let the game develop a bit more...players will improve, they'll figure out new tactics. This game is all about breaking barriers, and i don't think we've even scratched Project M's surface.

 

[MLGF]

Just because Fox is beatable doesn't mean he's healthy for the game. Balancing smash around Fox is a poor concept and while I'm happy that 3.5 stopped this approach, 3.5 Fox just seems to be oddly hypocritical. No one should be able to control matches and have an insane meta... unless it's Fox.

He just seems so out of place compared to all the other "top" 3.5 characters.

 

[PootisKonga]

So Armada just 6-0'd leffen's fox

it's still amazes me to see how far Armada has pushed peach...it's part of why i simply can't understand the people that are so adamant on wanting to nerf fox even further. None of the characters in PM have ever come close to reaching that level of expertise, and they won't for a long time. Yes you are going to loose to fox along the way, but what is your character really capable of?

You'll never really know until you put the time in. It seems like everyone nowadays wants quick results, even more so now that we have the ability to shape and form characters. for me, growing up and learning smash...the most challenging things were always the most fun and exciting to me.
I honestly think it's best to let the game develop a bit more...players will improve, they'll figure out new tactics. This game is all about breaking barriers, and i don't think we've even scratched the surface of Project M.

While I agree with that sentiment sans spacies, if beatable meant balanced or healthy for the game we would have considered 3.02 just fine

 

[kaizo13]

While I agree with that sentiment sans spacies, if beatable meant balanced or healthy for the game we would have considered 3.02 just fine

it's not about being beatable, i might have been a bit vauge in my last statement, but 3.5 was clearly more of a design update rather than balance...which is why even 3.02 low tiers were "nerfed". 3.02 top tiers were nerfed mostly because they had far too many options, too many safe approaches, and too many follow ups that required too little commitment or creativity from the players. 3.5 was a huge step in the right direction.

i think 3.5 is PMDT's first release to captivate all 7 of their design goals.

 

[Rizner]

it's not about being beatable, i might have been a bit vauge in my last statement, but 3.5 was clearly more of a design update rather than balance...which is why even 3.02 low tiers were "nerfed". 3.02 top tiers were nerfed mostly because they had far too many options, too many safe approaches, and too many follow ups that required too little commitment or creativity from the players. 3.5 was a huge step in the right direction.

i think 3.5 is PMDT's first release to captivate all 7 of their design goals.

From my point of view, Fox (and maybe 2-3 other characters, including other spacies) has all of those traits -- he still has more options, approaches and follow ups without commitment or creativity when compared to the rest of the cast. Do you think that's an ok thing, or do you not agree with that sentiment?