I disagree with how 3.5 approached balance.

[Frost | Odds]

There's nothing wrong with having to work for your wins though really. If people did it in Melee with far worse characters, there should be no excuse we don't see it in PM. We need similar prodigies to step it up to the plate is all.

Working on it.

 

[Binary Clone]

There's nothing wrong with having to work for your wins though really. If people did it in Melee with far worse characters, there should be no excuse we don't see it in PM. We need similar prodigies to step it up to the plate is all.

Wait, so we don't need character balance, because aMSa and Axe exist?

 

[Blank Mauser]

I'm saying good design comes first for a reason. We should be happy the game is as balanced as it is in the first place. A "bad character" is just another opportunity to become a better player.

 

[Binary Clone]

I'm saying good design comes first for a reason. We should be happy the game is as balanced as it is in the first place. A "bad character" is just another opportunity to become a better player.

That makes more sense, thanks for clarifying.

I'd also argue, though, that PM is still in beta, and good balance is a big part of good overall design along with good character design. The tough part is finding the middle ground.

No matter how good you are, Melee Kirby will not beat high-level players. In PM we don't really have that problem as much, since the characters are balanced much better, but I think we should still encourage and strive for greater balance. But we have to... uh.. balance balance with interesting character design so that we don't end up with boring homogeneous characters for the sake of making tier lists less relevant. PM's still in beta. There's a lot of work that can be and will be done.

 

[Giygacoal]

Why don't those who want to neuter fox and falco just go play smash 4? This is PM not Brawl so either learn the fox and falco match ups or go do something else but stop whining about something that people have been dealing with since 2001. Some PM nerfs were uncalled for. (I'm looking at you Snake and Toon Link) and some went too far (Mewtwo) some gimmicks that were left in are anti-smash (I'm looking at you gliding) however PM was meant to make Brawl more like Melee, that means making the Melee characters closer to Melee. You don't like that well that is why Sakurai made Brawl and Smash 4. So that people would not have to deal with Melee stuff.

Project M is meant to be more like Melee, but it is not meant to be a 1:1 Melee copy. If Project M were a very faithful replica of Melee, most of the characters would suck. I'm not necessarily saying that Fox and Falco should be nerfed further, but you have to keep in mind we have the right to discuss this kind of stuff for the good of the game because the game is inspired by Melee, not a complete remake of Melee.

some gimmicks that were left in are anti-smash (I'm looking at you gliding)

If you think gliding is anti-smash, then just play Melee.

 

[Rizner]

That makes more sense, thanks for clarifying.

I'd also argue, though, that PM is still in beta, and good balance is a big part of good overall design along with good character design. The tough part is finding the middle ground.

No matter how good you are, Melee Kirby will not beat high-level players. In PM we don't really have that problem as much, since the characters are balanced much better, but I think we should still encourage and strive for greater balance. But we have to... uh.. balance balance with interesting character design so that we don't end up with boring homogeneous characters for the sake of making tier lists less relevant. PM's still in beta. There's a lot of work that can be and will be done.

Woah melee Kirby is the best. You stopit.

 

[Sinz]

Woah melee Kirby is the best. You stopit.

But melee kirby dies to anything and everything.

 

[skellitorman]

Show me a high level match where Fox gets in with shine rather than n/dair more than twice in a set. I actually ****ing dare you lmao. Moving that far in without a hitbox protecting you will only get you jabbed, grabbed, ftilted, etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39DXzibpKhY

Mango vs Mew2king.

0:58-1:00 / 9:25-9:28 / 10:12-10:15

On 9:25-9:28, one of the commentators even commented about how he he did a nice running shine.

 

[Joe73191]

It is funny. PM is what Brawl should have been. If Brawl came out and it was exactly like PM the whole history of Smash would be different and we would not even be talking about changing characters. Melee might not even be big. People would have gladly switched over and we may actually have had a one unit thing going on. ..... If only.

 

[Ace55]

It is funny. PM is what Brawl should have been. If Brawl came out and it was exactly like PM the whole history of Smash would be different and we would not even be talking about changing characters. Melee might not even be big. People would have gladly switched over and we may actually have had a one unit thing going on. ..... If only.

To be honest, I don't know if Sakurai could've made something on the level of PM. I still feel Melee was for the most part a fantastic accident.

He could've done a hell of a lot better though than he did though.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

fox is the easiest character to play in PM. why people say he's hard baffles me. literally do what you would do with any other character, and win a lot more for no reason. yeah, hard character guys.

At low level he isn't, there characters with good smash attacks etc have to do less (around the level where shine is still only a reflector). Above a certain level (lower tournament level), I agree.

 

[Deleted member]

no one cares about low level play, not even low level players

 

[Frost | Odds]

no one cares about low level play, not even low level players

Is there like

a way to express extreme thankfulness for buffs already given whilst also indicating a desire for more

in 3 words or less?

 

[Chesstiger2612]

no one cares about low level play, not even low level players

Just wanted to clarify what probably is their point. It shouldn't be part of serious evaluation of character strengh. I still at least think close-to-top level should play a role in balancing (while top level balanceing shouldn't be affected by this anyhow), just so no character has a disadvantage of being harder if they are as good as each other if players were perfect.

 

[Deleted member]

Is there like

a way to express extreme thankfulness for buffs already given whilst also indicating a desire for more

in 3 words or less?

try "very f*ck!"

 

[Frost | Odds]

try "very f*ck!"

"very **** please"

sounds about right

 

[Soft Serve]

Actual fox players don't really cite tech barriers as reasons my fox is hard or why they lost, I don't think I've ever heard someone lose as a spacie and say "I lost because my character has to press more buttons"
I have heard people complain about PM characters in 3.02 like M2 and Ness and mario where thry have it easy mode and don't have to play the neutral game outside throwing the same option out for whatever situation

I switch back to fox when I'm tired, and dont want to have to make like 3 reads a stock to take a stock, I can just react to all of my follow ups and be fine. Once you are over the tech barrier of jumping out of shine consistantly fox is ez mode

Lol at people talking about fox without knowing running shine is a thing. Running shine is the best/stupidest approach option. Running shine > nair is so silly too.

 

[Scuba Steve]

Whenever somebody shine grabs me, I politely inform them that using something that is that good of an option is cheating

 

[9bit]

It is funny. PM is what Brawl should have been. If Brawl came out and it was exactly like PM the whole history of Smash would be different and we would not even be talking about changing characters. Melee might not even be big. People would have gladly switched over and we may actually have had a one unit thing going on. ..... If only.

To expand upon that, I feel like the taint of Brawl has forever cemented the Melee scene in place. If Smash 4 had come out and it was exactly PM 3.5, it would have been too late anyway. The Melee community was willing to switch games only once, and that would have been for Brawl. Now, it doesn't really matter what game comes out, the Melee community will stick with Melee forever now.

That isn't a bad thing. Melee is great. Just something I observed.

 

[Phaiyte]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39DXzibpKhY

Mango vs Mew2king.

0:58-1:00 / 9:25-9:28 / 10:12-10:15

On 9:25-9:28, one of the commentators even commented about how he he did a nice running shine.

Can't watch this right now because work/mobile, but check for a commitment error. I bet there is one around there somewhere. It can be anything even as small as landing on the ground, even if it's am empty jump, any missed attack, pressed a button in shield, whatever. Or maybe he just flat out didn't do anything to prevent it.

I gaurantee there was an error on the side of the person being shined. There's no way around it.

 

[PootisKonga]

Can't watch this right now because work/mobile, but check for a commitment error. I bet there is one around there somewhere. It can be anything even as small as landing on the ground, even if it's am empty jump, any missed attack, pressed a button in shield, whatever.

The only one I saw was Marth being in Fair's landing lag in the second instance. The first was Sheik dropping shield just before the Shine and the third was just a running shine that Marth didn't seem to react to/think was going to happen

Edit: And saying "there's an error on the person being shined" is very vague. Getting hit by, say, a jab in neutral is also an error on the person getting jabbed. I think the Sheik instance was an attempt at a shield grab stopped by our lovely frame-1 hitbox

Edit2: Hell, Sheik could have just been jumping OoS and that Shine would hit anyway

 

[Phaiyte]

The only one I saw was Marth being in Fair's landing lag in the second instance. The first was Sheik dropping shield just before the Shine and the third was just a running shine that Marth didn't seem to react to/think was going to happen

Edit: And saying "there's an error on the person being shined" is very vague. Getting hit by, say, a jab in neutral is also an error on the person getting jabbed. I think the Sheik instance was an attempt at a shield grab stopped by our lovely frame-1 hitbox

Edit2: Hell, Sheik could have just been jumping OoS and that Shine would hit anyway

So basically my point is proven. The shined player pressed a button when he shouldn't have. A concept observed in every fighting game ever. You'll get hit by a jab jumping oos, too. You'll get hit by even most f/dtilts jumping oos. The shined player is the one at fault for being shined. Would someone care to attempt to provide another example where shine over powers the character just because, in hopes of free imaginary internet points? Or are we just gonna continue crying about it for no reason other than "I don't know how to handle this"?

 

[_A1]

I'd say that basic Fox stuff is easy like SHDL. Fox is hard once you do more advanced stuff like perfect ledgedash. Also, he has it tough because he gets punished really hard so the real skill is how well you can play neutral.

About running shine: it's not free. It comes down to who baits the other one out. You can get destroyed if it's punished.
Ex. Fox runs up to Marth, who predicts the running shine and dashdance-grabs Fox.

 

[PootisKonga]

So basically my point is proven. The shined player pressed a button when he shouldn't have. A concept observed in every fighting game ever. You'll get hit by a jab jumping oos, too. You'll get hit by even most f/dtilts jumping oos. The shined player is the one at fault for being shined. Would someone care to attempt to provide another example where shine over powers the character just because, in hopes of free imaginary internet points? Or are we just gonna continue crying about it for no reason other than "I don't know how to handle this"?

So Shine can't be worth fixing unless it ignores all defensive options?

Sorry if that sounds straw-mannish, but that's what I've taken away from your arguments so far. A frame 1 hitbox alone is a powerful thing, let alone one with all of the properties Shine has.

If you could also sound a little less condescending it would not only be great for the folks that read your responses but you'd be taken a little more seriously.

 

[Rizner]

So basically my point is proven. The shined player pressed a button when he shouldn't have. A concept observed in every fighting game ever. You'll get hit by a jab jumping oos, too. You'll get hit by even most f/dtilts jumping oos. The shined player is the one at fault for being shined. Would someone care to attempt to provide another example where shine over powers the character just because, in hopes of free imaginary internet points? Or are we just gonna continue crying about it for no reason other than "I don't know how to handle this"?

I mean, anyone could use this argument. If you get hit in a match, that's on you. Doesn't matter the matchup or their options or anything about whatever, you got hit by something so you can't john.

I mean, the whole idea of running shine is that his other options give him that as a mixup tool to make it viable. Not the ideal approach, but it's still there. I mean, if fox is running at you, what are your and his options? He can throw out a shine, dash attack, up smash, grab, short hop aerial to shine, run past, pivot grab, dash dance away, etc. If you get hit by any of those, it's because you messed up. What are your options against this? Shield, roll, attack, spot dodge, grab. Shield, attack and grab lose to shine. Shine is faster and causes enough shield stun to shine jump or wavedash or multishine or whatever so fox is safe. Spot dodge loses to all of his other options, and rolling can get punished real hard. Ideally, you'd have a long, fast ftilt or something to reach out past his shine hitbox, but you have to commit to using that and if you whiff that hit because he sees it coming or if shine clanks with it b/c super fast move, you lose that trade pretty hard.

It's not that it's his best option or a good option, it's that it's an option which has tons of follow up if it works, not many counters and isn't very risky overall in a kit which opens up hard punishes for reading a shine at the wrong time.

 

[_A1]

Shining a shield can certainly get you grabbed or Up-B'd OOS or whatever. There is hardly any shield stun at all.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

he has it tough because he gets punished really hard

Never say this.

You know who *actually* get punished hard? Bowser. Ganon. 80% of the cast. Getting punished hard is not an attribute unique to Fox in the slightest. "Boo hoo, three characters have 40% Uthrow chaingrabs on me boo freaking hoo." Many other characters deal with a lot worse. F*** the spacies and their "punished hard" BULL****

 

[PootisKonga]

How fast does the average shield grab come out, though? Shine comes out frame 1 and, IIRC, is jump-cancellable on frame 3 or 4. I doubt any grabs can come out fast enough on a JC'd shine.

 

[MonkUnit]

The average grab is active starting frame 7.

 

[_A1]

Never say this.

You know who *actually* get punished hard? Bowser. Ganon. 80% of the cast. Getting punished hard is not an attribute unique to Fox in the slightest. "Boo hoo, three characters have 40% Uthrow chaingrabs on me boo freaking hoo." Many other characters deal with a lot worse. F*** the spacies and their "punished hard" BULL****

80% of the cast don't get punished as hard. It's more like they just lose neutral over and over. Falco kills spacies at 60-120% or so. Do you know when Falco kills against a good Bowser?

 

[skellitorman]

How fast does the average shield grab come out, though? Shine comes out frame 1 and, IIRC, is jump-cancellable on frame 3 or 4. I doubt any grabs can come out fast enough on a JC'd shine.

Not including the freeze frames (where both characters are locked in animation), Shine has 5 frames of blockstun (including the first frame of contact). Shine can be jump canceled on frame 4 and another Shine can be active as soon as 3 frames afterwards.

This means that an opponent has exactly 1 frame to input anything if Fox does a frame perfect double shine. If the opposing character is not invincible or shielding on the frame afterwards, then the character will be hit. Since normal grabs are active on the 7th frame, it is not possible to grab Fox out of a properly executed double shine.

 

[_A1]

There's obviously a lot of character bias. People that don't seriously play Fox complain about Fox. On the other hand, I could go on about how stupid Marth's grab is. I think we can all agree that every top tier has something that irritates people.

 

[Phaiyte]

words

More than 1 frame. A grab will win a trade with a shine any day. Omg you took like 3 damage~~! In exchange for probably a whole stock. Getting grabbed, shielded or not, because you thought shining is soooo op, is not an uncommon thing.

If you could also sound a little less condescending it would not only be great for the folks that read your responses but you'd be taken a little more seriously.

It is not my fault like 75% of this community is a bunch of whiners who get their feelings hurt on the internet until they get their way after crying endlessly over **** they know nothing about.

 

[GP&B]

If you could also sound a little less condescending it would not only be great for the folks that read your responses but you'd be taken a little more seriously.

You ask the impossible. He'll always respond with... well hey, the thing right above me.
"I think almost everyone is a whiner, therefore I get to be an asshole to everyone but it's not being an asshole because they're sensitive babies so therefore..." ad infinitum. Apparently, being civil is the same as being sensitive to another's feelings.

Spoiler

I don't care about the latter, just stop throwing out "crybaby/whiner" like a 12 year-old.

Save your breath/fingers/keyboard.

 

[Strong Badam]

Never say this.

You know who *actually* get punished hard? Bowser. Ganon. 80% of the cast. Getting punished hard is not an attribute unique to Fox in the slightest. "Boo hoo, three characters have 40% Uthrow chaingrabs on me boo freaking hoo." Many other characters deal with a lot worse. F*** the spacies and their "punished hard" BULL****

you seem upset

 

[Phaiyte]

words

Should I get a thesaurus to describe someone who's merely saying things like:

- "I don't want to learn how to play this game. You should make it so I don't have to do any learning but can totally still expect tourney results, and then complain when someone else who tries equally as little beats me"

- "I've never been good at a fighting game before so it'd be really nice if the PMBR made it easier for me."

- "How come I'm not winning when I get mad and button mash?"

- "I make poor decisions and it's totally the game's fault and not mine"

- "Maybe if I complain hard enough I can make someone 'patch' the things I refuse to learn how to deal with."

- "I keep talking about how x dominates neutral, but I don't even know what neutral means."

- "I refuse to listen to the advice given on how to deal with the things I'm ill-experienced in, and I'd rather have the PMBR change my base 'problem' so that I don't have to listen to that advice anymore."

- "I suck at this game but refuse to admit it on account that so many people are ******** about the same thing I am"

Things people actually say all the time in one way or another. It's pathetic. These people make excuses for everything that happens to them instead of blaming themselves, and then they expect to not be criticized about it? Get real lmao.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYvGTZy6s20
every single one of you.

 

[Strong Badam]

^don't really understand how people can have positions like this re: spacies but at the same time not be appalled at the amount of nerfs seen in 3.5 cast-wide.
if you disagree that a character is too powerful/isn't designed well then argue from that point but insulting others based solely on their opinion doesn't help make your position any more appealing, it just makes you look like an asshole.

seems like you've blurred the line between "wanting the game to be designed/balanced as best as possible" (which is a desire of just about anyone who cares about PM's future) and "having a poor competitive mindset" which a lot of people do but is a bad thing to do, & is often rude and mean, as evidenced here.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

you seem upset

Maybe a little

 

[Akhenderson]

The one thing I still don't understand is why is Fox and Falco's landing lag after up B so small (If they're directly ported from melee, then it would mean that their landing lag would be 6 frames) when characters with worse recoveries can have up to 20 frames of landing lag or more.

I don't really mind Fox's shine that much, but I feel it has too much utility in one move for something that's frame 1 and is jump cancelable on frame 4. It's for shield pressure, setting up kills for various other moves, gimping, small damage that can add over time, combo extender, and the ability to reflect projectiles (I don't really know who uses it for this purpose, even though the move is called "Reflector" and does exactly that.)
Sure, the hitbox of the shine is small, but Fox's speed and move set alleviates this problem by quite a bit and synergizes with it extremely well which makes shine so strong. I dunno how you would change this attack without changing the core gameplay of Fox.

 

[Joe73191]

people argue the reasons why fox should be looked at and should not be immune to nerfs, and when you call them on why fox shouldn't be nerfed they say. "Well i never said definitely nerf him, I just he should not be immune. Lets talk about the pros and cons of nerfing him." So I will ask. Who is actually in favor of changing shine and what change do you propose. Because unless you have a solution then saying we need to change a supposed problem is just empty words.