I disagree with how 3.5 approached balance.

[Binary Clone]

So much QQ in this thread and not enough actually playing the game

Let me edit this post and cherry pick something on this very page:



Let me start off by saying, if you got hit with shine first, before anything else, that automatically means you played neutral VERY BAD. (read as: your fault) There is literally no way Fox can get in that close without you making a huge commitment mistake. Please git gud. This guy right here is literally just mad because he doesn't know how to play the game lmao. So he hopes to cry in a videogame forum in hopes that one day it will be changed just so he doesn't have to cry so hard or actually try when he plays the game. Shine isn't even that safe on shield. It doesn't even deal significant shield damage, or otherwise my frequent 8-ish multishines in a row would actually mean something. But it doesn't. You can buffer a shield roll. It's jump cancellable on frame 4, and pre dodge roll is only vulnerable for 2 frames usually. That's way more than enough time to buffer a roll with C stick. You just got hit by a shine or know that you're going to get hit by one? Jam the **** out of your C stick in the opposite direction for the SDI. If your character is lighter than Marth, ****ing L2tech roll lmao. Man I can go on and on about how to counter play shines all day, but I feel like I've done enough at midnight.

tl;dr Shine is just a DP. Treat it like one.

Bunch of DSP incarnates in this community I ****ing swear lol

I never said it's broken or unstoppable or insanely powerful, I said it's a gimmick.

Please git gud. This guy right here is literally just mad because he doesn't know how to play the game lmao. So he hopes to cry in a videogame forum in hopes that one day it will be changed just so he doesn't have to cry so hard or actually try when he plays the game.

Wow, because obviously I'm a ****ty player because I have an opinion. Did I ever call for it to be nerfed? "Gimmick" does not mean "it should be nerfed" or removed.

Well, at nationals, you don't see very many Falco mains get Top 16. In this case, the usage-performance ratio doesn't make him look solidly Top 2 in Melee (not saying he isn't though).

I'm not going to bother continuing that argument, because it's not relevant to the topic.

 

[J3f]

So much QQ in this thread and not enough actually playing the game

Let me edit this post and cherry pick something on this very page:



Let me start off by saying, if you got hit with shine first, before anything else, that automatically means you played neutral VERY BAD. (read as: your fault) There is literally no way Fox can get in that close without you making a huge commitment mistake. Please git gud. This guy right here is literally just mad because he doesn't know how to play the game lmao. So he hopes to cry in a videogame forum in hopes that one day it will be changed just so he doesn't have to cry so hard or actually try when he plays the game. Shine isn't even that safe on shield. It doesn't even deal significant shield damage, or otherwise my frequent 8-ish multishines in a row would actually mean something. But it doesn't. You can buffer a shield roll. It's jump cancellable on frame 4, and pre dodge roll is only vulnerable for 2 frames usually. That's way more than enough time to buffer a roll with C stick. You just got hit by a shine or know that you're going to get hit by one? Jam the **** out of your C stick in the opposite direction for the SDI. If your character is lighter than Marth, ****ing L2tech roll lmao. Man I can go on and on about how to counter play shines all day, but I feel like I've done enough at midnight.

tl;dr Shine is just a DP. Treat it like one.

Bunch of DSP incarnates in this community I ****ing swear lol

Because roll is a good option for most characters that won't just lead into a punish by fox.

And most of the cast is lighter than Marth.

 

[_A1]

@ J3f I don't know about you, but I hardly see Foxes successfully reading/reacting to rolls and punishing with fatal up smashes after shield pressure.

 

[J3f]

Depends on which character, your playing. Link's roll is terrible. Peach, Samus, etc. might be able to get away with it. I didn't mean it leads to a guaranteed kill either, just that it's not a good way to reset to neutral.

 

[Frost | Odds]

There is literally no way Fox can get in that close without you making a huge commitment mistake.

Oh my God, please tell me you're joking. I would hate to take you any less seriously than I already do.

 

[Rizner]

Other characters had tools removed which could be played around. Why not shine?

It isn't the auto win button, but neither were other things removed.

 

[Joe73191]

Why don't those who want to neuter fox and falco just go play smash 4? This is PM not Brawl so either learn the fox and falco match ups or go do something else but stop whining about something that people have been dealing with since 2001. Some PM nerfs were uncalled for. (I'm looking at you Snake and Toon Link) and some went too far (Mewtwo) some gimmicks that were left in are anti-smash (I'm looking at you gliding) however PM was meant to make Brawl more like Melee, that means making the Melee characters closer to Melee. You don't like that well that is why Sakurai made Brawl and Smash 4. So that people would not have to deal with Melee stuff.

 

[Rizner]

Why don't those who want to neuter fox and falco just go play smash 4? This is PM not Brawl so either learn the fox and falco match ups or go do something else but stop whining about something that people have been dealing with since 2001. Some PM nerfs were uncalled for. (I'm looking at you Snake and Toon Link) and some went too far (Mewtwo) some gimmicks that were left in are anti-smash (I'm looking at you gliding) however PM was meant to make Brawl more like Melee, that means making the Melee characters closer to Melee. You don't like that well that is why Sakurai made Brawl and Smash 4. So that people would not have to deal with Melee stuff.

I'm just trying to say it's worth a conversation. It shouldn't be immune to the tool changes and character changes just because it was in melee. It should have a reason for existing outside of the fact it can be played around, because everything can be played around.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Why don't those who want to neuter fox and falco just go play smash 4? This is PM not Brawl so either learn the fox and falco match ups or go do something else but stop whining about something that people have been dealing with since 2001.

"Whining"

Some PM nerfs were uncalled for. (I'm looking at you Snake and Toon Link) and some went too far (Mewtwo)

No, those nerfs/changes were entirely necessary. Sorry.

Mewtwo is also still really good - certainly top half of the cast, and very likely top 15 or top 10. Now he just has to actually play Smash with the rest of us.

some gimmicks that were left in are anti-smash (I'm looking at you gliding) however PM was meant to make Brawl more like Melee, that means making the Melee characters closer to Melee.

As has been repeatedly, explicitly stated by members of the PMDT, that is not, will not be, and has never been the goal.

The only person 'whining' here is you.

 

[Marth Regalia]

My main (Pit) got completely neutered, but since my secondary Roy feels rather untouched, I can still attend PM tournaments rather comfortably. But I don't think nerfing just about every character was the way to balance the game.

 

[Joe73191]

As has been repeatedly, explicitly stated by members of the PMDT, that is not, will not be, and has never been the goal.

Because putting back as many melee mechanics as possible is not trying to make it more like Melee. Right. Sorry, but whatever they may say now does not change why they started and what they have actually done in reality.

the point is that fox and falco have an ability. An ability some people don't like. You guys are the minority. People have fun wth fox and falco, you can try to take that away all you want, but at the end of the day all you will have to show for it is less people playing PM. The less entrants you have the less incentive TOs have for running PM. It's all economics. The result is PM dies out with little to no tourney representation. If that is what you want fine. But state it outright so we know where you stand. Don't hide behind the false claim that Shines are an unfair gimmick. All that means is you want less people playing PM and less skill in PM so you don't have to work for your wins.

You know why people still play Melee? Because it is more of an achievement to be good at a harder game. You can be prouder of a win in game with more skilled players and that takes more skill to play. All the best still play Melee, ask yourself why sometime.

 

[Rizner]

Because putting back as many melee mechanics as possible is not trying to make it more like Melee. Right. Sorry, but whatever they may say now does not change why they started and what they have actually done in reality.

the point is that fox and falco have an ability. An ability some people don't like. You guys are the minority. People have fun wth fox and falco, you can try to take that away all you want, but at the end of the day all you will have to show for it is less people playing PM. The less entrants you have the less incentive TOs have for running PM. It's all economics. The result is PM dies out with little to no tourney representation. If that is what you want fine. But state it outright so we know where you stand. Don't hide behind the false claim that Shines are an unfair gimmick. All that means is you want less people playing PM and less skill in PM so you don't have to work for your wins.

You know why people still play Melee? Because it is more of an achievement to be good at a harder game. You can be prouder of a win in game with more skilled players and that takes more skill to play. All the best still play Melee, ask yourself why sometime.

I feel like you're missing my point. Shine should be considered in terms of this game, the way other moves are. It should be given the same criteria others have gotten and the same treatment.

Is the move over centralizing? Does it limit game interactions? Is it boring to use and watch? Is it overpowered or under powered? Does it make sense to his character? Is it actually hard to use for the reward it earns?

You shouldn't keep things in because melee. I'm not saying take it out. I'm not saying keep it. I'm saying actually discuss the merits and reasons instead of turning everything into a single get good or I'm just better than you so you don't get it argument.

 

[Phaiyte]

Oh my God, please tell me you're joking. I would hate to take you any less seriously than I already do.

Show me a high level match where Fox gets in with shine rather than n/dair more than twice in a set. I actually ****ing dare you lmao. Moving that far in without a hitbox protecting you will only get you jabbed, grabbed, ftilted, etc.

And make sure the other player didn't make a commitment mistake in neutral. Go ahead. Make a fool of yourself.

Is the move over centralizing?

no

Does it limit game interactions?

no

Is it boring to use and watch?

**** no it isn't

Is it overpowered or under powered?

no

Does it make sense to his character?

yes

Is it actually hard to use for the reward it earns?

yes

 

[Frost | Odds]

Because putting back as many melee mechanics as possible is not trying to make it more like Melee. Right. Sorry, but whatever they may say now does not change why they started and what they have actually done in reality.

Taking a lot of the good parts of melee != making the game adhere as closely as possible to melee. See: the 80% of the game that's very little like Melee (characters, stages, mechanics, etc)

the point is that fox and falco have an ability. An ability some people don't like. You guys are the minority. People have fun wth fox and falco, you can try to take that away all you want, but at the end of the day all you will have to show for it is less people playing PM. The less entrants you have the less incentive TOs have for running PM. It's all economics. The result is PM dies out with little to no tourney representation. If that is what you want fine. But state it outright so we know where you stand. Don't hide behind the false claim that Shines are an unfair gimmick. All that means is you want less people playing PM and less skill in PM so you don't have to work for your wins.

Who's trying to remove the shine? People have merely (and rightly) pointed out that if Fox's shine were removed entirely, he'd still be a better character than a large portion of the cast.

I personally don't particularly mind playing against Fox, even though he's completely broken, and entirely deserving of a large suite of nerfs.

You know why people still play Melee? Because it is more of an achievement to be good at a harder game.

I come from a background of goddamned Brood War. Your appeal to technicality doesn't impress me, sorry.

Show me a high level match where Fox gets in with shine rather than n/dair more than twice in a set. I actually ****ing dare you lmao. Moving that far in without a hitbox protecting you will only get you jabbed, grabbed, ftilted, etc.

Yeah, Fox definitely doesn't have the speed or multitude of other threats that might enable such a controversial, difficult, and unrewarding approach as running shine.

And make sure the other player didn't make a commitment mistake in neutral. Go ahead. Make a fool of yourself.

Ah, it's not a huge commitment mistake anymore?

Whatever. I don't believe I've ever seen a single post of yours contain anything worth reading; should have ignored you a long time ago. I've amended that mistake.

 

[Phaiyte]

@ Frost | Odds why you duckin tho

 

[Scuba Steve]

Taking a lot of the good parts of melee != making the game adhere as closely as possible to melee. See: the 80% of the game that's very little like Melee (characters, stages, mechanics, etc)


Who's trying to remove the shine? People have merely (and rightly) pointed out that if Fox's shine were removed entirely, he'd still be a better character than a large portion of the cast.

I personally don't particularly mind playing against Fox, even though he's completely broken, and entirely deserving of a large suite of nerfs.


I come from a background of goddamned Brood War. Your appeal to technicality doesn't impress me, sorry.


Yeah, Fox definitely doesn't have the speed or multitude of other threats that might enable such a controversial, difficult, and unrewarding approach as running shine.


Ah, it's not a huge commitment mistake anymore?

Whatever. I don't believe I've ever seen a single post of yours contain anything worth reading; should have ignored you a long time ago.

My smashboards experience improved dramatically once I started using the ignore function more liberally

 

[Frost | Odds]

My smashboards experience improved dramatically once I started using the ignore function more liberally

Only problem is now my old posts don't show the bits where I quote some inanity, and it looks like I'm talking to myself / someone else who doesn't deserve whatever I'm saying.

Even knowing why that happens, it's still incredibly confusing.

EDIT: Anyway, I think it's hilarious that Fox players go on and on about how difficult he is. I was able to SHDL, waveshine, and do a bunch of of his other vaunted tech on the first try in PM. Claiming that his difficulty somehow offsets the absolute ludicrousness of that character is both conceited, and rather silly.

 

[TTTTTsd]

So we're gonna end up back at spacies vs anti-spacies again?

They need to hit the source of the problem instead of walking around it.

If you ask me it's less spacies in general and more one guy...

Mr. McCloud in particular, I think. Not that I am for or against Fox changes, but the general observations I can make seem to be that the other 2 spacies are pretty fair overall.

Also I'd like to point out that first people complained that chars had TOO much, and now people are telling me some don't have enough? What the hell is going on?

 

[MagnesD3]

3.5 is a good step in the right direction. 4.0 will mostly rebuff some characters who didn't need nerfs and nerf those who weren't nerfed enough. I wouldn't worry too much since we still have a long way to go before project m becomes a finished product.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Funny thing is if you took away shine, Fox would still be relatively good. Like, Diddy-level good. Which is pretty fair.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Also comparing Shine to a Dragon Punch is absolutely ludicrous. If you whiff a DP in a fighting game unless it's a light one (even THEN there are easy punishes i.e. projectile) you can't just jump-cancel it or wavedash back out of it to avoid maximum damage. I'm not saying Shine is unpunishable but it does not require by ANY means the commitment a dragon punch does.

 

[MagnesD3]

Shine will never go away, it's too essential to fox's identity. I wouldn't be surprised if it was nerfed to come out a frame or two later tho. (Possibly Universally for all shines.). I'd say foxes other tools will be further nerfed first tho before it comes to nerfing shine. (Up air and up smash.)

 

[Phaiyte]

"I can't dispute my counter claim so I'm just going to put people on ignore instead"
- _Odds, the duckin' man baby

 

[TTTTTsd]

Oh I'm not saying it should or shouldn't be removed but comparing it to a Dragon Punch is absolutely silly IMO and not a very valid comparison. That's like, an entirely new level of "wat." I'm sure a lot of SF players wish they could cancel out of Dragon Punch's startup for no meter (FADC costs meter and is a risk in itself thanks to dash states), hell, Shine goes into like at least 3-4 different options which already covers more than an FADC and it HAS NO COST. I could go on all day about why calling a Shine anything like a DP is absolutely head-numbing to me but I'll leave it at that. The level of commitment in comparison is so wide I can't agree. Never do that again, pls. Ever.

 

[Blank Mauser]

I don't think Fox will ever be fundamentally different in PM. I just find it fun to theorize, and am amused at all the people so defensive of the character. Despite the character being so faithfully ported over.

 

[MagnesD3]

I don't think Fox will ever be fundamentally different in PM. I just find it fun to theorize, and am amused at all the people so defensive of the character. Despite the character being so faithfully ported over. They must argue how much skill it takes to play a mostly unchanged character.

They will change him more eventually they are just afraid of destroying the character (and scaring away some of the melee base)

 

[Ningildo]

You know why people still play Melee? Because it is more of an achievement to be good at a harder game. You can be prouder of a win in game with more skilled players and that takes more skill to play. All the best still play Melee, ask yourself why sometime.

Or, you know, switching to another game in the series with different mechanics and sticking with that basically means you wasted all of your time practicing melee. That's it. It's why Melee is still played. "I could change to sm4sh as my main game, but then all that time spent mastering waveshining is basically wasted. What to do..." You would play the game you practiced for over a decade, cause why else would you practice it if you're not gonna play it?

And that's fine. Fine until you claim that it's the best smash and possibly the best fighting game ever made to use as a justification playing a dated game, rather then admitting that you didn't want the time spent on it being wasted by moving on (or just saying "I just enjoy melee" without burning people who enjoy other smash iterations).

Going a bit off-topic, but honestly, the amount of people here and elsewhere making these claims are either doing the aforementioned or are blindly oblivious to the fact that maybe, MAYBE some people just like the melee physics and mechanics and not the fact that melee was basically Super Spacie Bros in most cases (aka it was centralized as **** around the top 8, especially the top 2). I like Project M for the melee like physics/mechanics too (I'm originally a brawl player, but I've come to appreciate it), but the amount of viable characters is far greater then Melee or Brawl, which probably is my favorite part of this mod/game/(w/e I really couldn't care less about what you want to call Project M).

Anywho, I don't really mind the nerfs to nearly everyone, as the PMDT will likely slowly rebuild the characters into more refined and balanced versions of themselves, but I don't get why Melee's top tiers were left nearly completely unscathed when some of them still need some retweaking or even nerfs (*gasp*) to make them on a more even level with everyone else, doubly so when the PMDT made it clear that they want the project to become it's own beast rather then Melee 2.0/HD.

And if you're one of the few that think that Fox's Usmash nerf makes Fox on the level of most of the cast, well, I guess I'll have to respect that opinion.

Because laser camping for a few more seconds with a character with great movement is impossible and doesn't make your opinion look oblivious.

 

[Deleted member]

fox is the easiest character to play in PM. why people say he's hard baffles me. literally do what you would do with any other character, and win a lot more for no reason. yeah, hard character guys.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

idc how much you OD on tylenol
fox aint the easiest

 

[Chexr]

I think a lot of the changes were fine and needed to be made but I'm so mad about the Metaknight changes. He just got destroyed worse than any other character. Lucas, Mewtwo, Pit, even Diddy are still viable, but MK is pretty much done. Like almost EVERY SINGLE MOVE got nerfed. He was already the worst character defensively. Easy to combo and easy to kill because of his fast fall speed, light weight and bad tech roll. He already wasn't at the top of the tier list.

But then like every single move got nerfed. You can DI out of Fair now so I can't approach with it. You can DI out of up-smash easier now so it's harder to combo. It's harder to grab people. When you do grab them you can't combo anymore. F-smash, f-tilt and d-tilt got nerfed.

Nair got nerfed (and deserving) but it's still good. His game is going to center around nair more now which is what I thought the backroom wanted to avoid. The new dair is close to useless. I know divesword was an insane recovery tool but it also let you follow up attacks and punish moves to start combos.

Tornado is even more useless than it was before, side-b sucks more, up-b is worse AND he lost a JUMP too?

Not too mention that they increased the size of his hit box and even nerfed his jab. Like what the ****. He's not even fun to play anymore. They brought him down to one of the worst in the game. He's no longer an offensive threat and the worst defensive character in the game. Consider me now a spacie main. How dull.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Metaknight is still ridiculously good, and far from the worst in the game.

You may want to consider learning to dash dance, grab, and/or space moves.

 

[Blank Mauser]

I would've been happy with nerfed recovery and more end-lag on dair/decreased mobility on it for the character. It is kind of sad seeing all the MK players drop him.

Even if they were to keep playing him, a lot of people just don't find him worth the time over other characters now. This is a different sentiment as to whether I think hes good or not, which I think he is. Comparing Chexr's MK to the many others around I always found it interesting how people played him so differently and to different strengths. But now I feel like there is only one particular way to play him. And I thought aside from dair/d-cape his design was pretty good before already.

 

[KayB]

In terms of tech skill, Fox is definitely one of the hardest to fully optimize.

In terms of the ability to win? Fox is one of if not the easiest character to play as in the game.

 

[SpiderMad]

@Oro?! Make a statement about Spacies so I can agree with it

 

[BBOY15]

What I don't get about balancing is: Why is it so taboo for a heavy character to be top tier? Why do we have to keep characters like Bowser from competing against fast characters such as Fox at the highest level? Imo we should try to make every character as close to each other in the tier list as possible while maintaining everyone's identity. We shouldn't try to make some characters higher tiers than others.

 

[PootisKonga]

What I don't get about balancing is: Why is it so taboo for a heavy character to be top tier? Why do we have to keep characters like Bowser from competing against fast characters such as Fox at the highest level? Imo we should try to make every character as close to each other in the tier list as possible while maintaining everyone's identity. We shouldn't try to make some characters higher tiers than others.

It's not on purpose that slow and heavy characters are lower tier, it's just how things tend to turn out in fighting games

 

[Frost | Odds]

What I don't get about balancing is: Why is it so taboo for a heavy character to be top tier? Why do we have to keep characters like Bowser from competing against fast characters such as Fox at the highest level? Imo we should try to make every character as close to each other in the tier list as possible while maintaining everyone's identity. We shouldn't try to make some characters higher tiers than others.

It's kind of inevitable that big, heavy characters will get hosed at high levels; it's basically a necessary consequence of aiming for some semblance of balance even in casual play - where heavy characters tend to be stronger due to them being somewhat less reliant on a high number of inputs.

I still advocate that Bowser & Co. should get some reasonable buffs (ie. there's no reason that Bowser's fsmash shouldn't instantly break shields), but both he and Ganondorf are far better than they've ever been -- and most players of those characters (including myself) are still basking in their wonderful new ability to do anything at all.

Even if they were to receive additional buffs, characters like that must be buffed extremely carefully to avoid them becoming absolutely oppressive at lower levels of play.


EDIT: I feel like I should add that this is exactly why the recent buffs to Bowser and Ganon specifically were so brilliant - they both have new movement options, thus making them more viable at higher levels, but these options are fairly difficult to do consistently, so they'll be of limited use to scrubs who just want to beat up on their friends with the perceived "OP" character.

 

[BBOY15]

It's kind of inevitable that big, heavy characters will get hosed at high levels; it's basically a necessary consequence of aiming for some semblance of balance even in casual play - where heavy characters tend to be stronger due to them being somewhat less reliant on a high number of inputs.

I still advocate that Bowser & Co. should get some reasonable buffs (ie. there's no reason that Bowser's fsmash shouldn't instantly break shields), but both he and Ganondorf are far better than they've ever been -- and most players of those characters (including myself) are still basking in their wonderful new ability to do anything at all.

Even if they were to receive additional buffs, characters like that must be buffed extremely carefully to avoid them becoming absolutely oppressive at lower levels of play.


EDIT: I feel like I should add that this is exactly why the recent buffs to Bowser and Ganon specifically were so brilliant - they both have new movement options, thus making them more viable at higher levels, but these options are fairly difficult to do consistently, so they'll be of limited use to scrubs who just want to beat up on their friends with the perceived "OP" character.

Yeah, giving heavy characters buffs that only experienced players can take advantage of would be a good way to allow the dev team to buff them while preventing them from being OP at lower levels of play.

 

[Blank Mauser]

There's nothing wrong with having to work for your wins though really. If people did it in Melee with far worse characters, there should be no excuse we don't see it in PM. We need similar prodigies to step it up to the plate is all.

 

[_A1]

Although that's true, you don't want characters to inherently be worse because of their physics.