I disagree with how 3.5 approached balance.

[J3f]

It was mostly Fox. A lot of the other Melee top tiers were pretty unspectacular in 3.0. Sheik, Marth, Falcon, Peach, Puff, and IC's all had fairly low representation in any 3.0 PM national.

What I wouldn't give for a 3.02 with PAL Fox Up Smash. Most of the other Melee Top-tiers were fine. Jigglypuff needed some serious buffs though. They should have changed Jigglypuff's Rollout to have a much quicker start up and Projectile Invincibility like Link's Shield.

Mewtwo could have also used his current Teleport Nerfs, but that's about it. Things like Captain Falcon grabbing lower characters are minor, but welcome changes I'd like to see too.

 

[GabPR]

Just to be clear or at least try and understand your point of view, which characters are you not happy with the changes and why?

 

[J3f]

It's the overnerfing of almost the entire cast. There's thing's I like in 3.5 still like Zelda's new Side B and Ganon Reflect (although I would have made it his Zair and left Warlock Punch).

I also hate that so many characters lost cool tricks they could do, even some of the more gimmicky ones. I and several others I'm sure have put a lot of time into learning how to use the more advanced tech of our characters. It felt really good to pull it off in a match too. Now I can't have the hype moments of pulling off Link's Bomb Jump, or QAC's with Pikachu.

Characters lost useful and interesting tricks they had which were fun to learn and master. I like gimmickyness to an extent.

Also arguably one of the most gimmicky things in the game is Fox Shine and that's never been touched.

 

[Sinz]

Also arguably one of the most gimmicky things in the game is Fox Shine and that's never been touched.

It's because its Melee. It's because people are used to Fox and Falco's shines that they don't consider them gimmicks anymore. The characters are really strong without Shine and without Laser. Add those on to them and then you have the spacies. They have so much utility and are hardly getting nerfed at all.

 

[TimeSmash]

Changing things "because Melee" like the OP mentioned is hardly sound logic, though. If Project M is no longer Project Melee, why keep drawing on that then? Some changes are nice, like Peach no-lag on closed parasol, but there are things that shouldn't be changed to fit Melee.

 

[MechWarriorNY]

And complaining will change nothing, but shutting up and playing the game would.
Maybe if people did that instead of whining, you wouldn't have so much to complain about in the first place.

*(barring legitimate cases of BS)

 

[TimeSmash]

And complaining will change nothing, but shutting up and playing the game would.
Maybe if people did that instead of whining, you wouldn't have so much to complain about in the first place.

*(barring legitimate cases of BS)

While I agree with this, in that ******** about a problem is almost always outranked by actually doing something about the problem, as long as people are providing reasonable arguments and not just complaining, we should have a place to voice concerns. The boards are riddled with nerf or change complaints enough as is--hopefully, this thread is serving as a sieve for some of that

 

[MechWarriorNY]

It is. Barely.
Gruh.

 

[J3f]

Changing things "because Melee" like the OP mentioned is hardly sound logic, though. If Project M is no longer Project Melee, why keep drawing on that then? Some changes are nice, like Peach no-lag on closed parasol, but there are things that shouldn't be changed to fit Melee.

Half the changelogs reads "We made it exactly like Melee". I liked that some characters embodied the good aspects of Brawl and changed the tempo of some matchups. Not all matches need to play like Fox Dittos. Going with a more Brawl like design for some of lower ranked Melee characters also really helped them shine without making them play superfast and changing the core traits of the character. I also believe the PMDT can do a better job than just rehashing Melee.

 

[GabPR]

It's the overnerfing of almost the entire cast. There's thing's I like in 3.5 still like Zelda's new Side B and Ganon Reflect (although I would have made it his Zair and left Warlock Punch).

I also hate that so many characters lost cool tricks they could do, even some of the more gimmicky ones. I and several others I'm sure have put a lot of time into learning how to use the more advanced tech of our characters. It felt really good to pull it off in a match too. Now I can't have the hype moments of pulling off Link's Bomb Jump, or QAC's with Pikachu.

Characters lost useful and interesting tricks they had which were fun to learn and master. I like gimmickyness to an extent.

Also arguably one of the most gimmicky things in the game is Fox Shine and that's never been touched.

I disagree with you on the gimmicks. I admit, they where fun, your speaking to a Sonic main that had a blast (attack :3) overwhelming opponents with down b safe pressure, always coming back to the stage after an easy edge guard I practiced with infinite homing attacks and learning the different applications and combos with it. But Let me tell you, even though I had fun... my opponents did not.

I started to use other characters besides Sonic not because my friends asked me to, but because it came to a point where Sonic's play style was just plain gimmicky annoying for them. I did not "feel" challenged, and because of how safe my attacks where, It came to a point that it did not even felt that rewarding because of how easy it was. They felt helpless. And to top it all off you could not edge guard him unless you sent him like 4 or 5 times off the stage (or kill him). Even though it took me a while to get used to 3.5, I hold on to my bias and actually started to consider all of these aspects and adapt to the new Sonic. And aside from not being overly dependent on b moves (They are still really usable, just not spammable) his nerfs did not affect his play style overall and is still really viable.

Now ask yourself, do you really believe the gimmicks were really necessary in the game or detrimental? Did you think in your opponents shoes and how they feel fighting against your character ? Have you spent enough time practicing with your characters and actually discovering what other things they can do (maybe they have a few new tricks up their sleeve)? Are you willing to start thinking not on a single character change but how they affect the rest of the cast as well? ARE YOU READY TO ABSORB THE 3.5 MENTALITY?!?!

PS. While his recovery sucks and his killing moves where nerfed, I don't entirely disagree with you on fox though.

 

[wiiztec]

Smash tyrant Strong Bad picked up GnW and shielded him from the mighty nerf stick on the way to 3.5

/tinfoil

G&W definitely got nerfed he now has nonflinch(turkey) bacon mixed in his pan

 

[Joe73191]

They say writers need to learn when to put the pen down. Painters need to learn when to put the paint brush down and so on and do forth. I feel the PMDT didn't know when to put the pen down and went too far. Many characters in 3.02 were completely fine. This whole viewing characters in a 3.5 vacuum and mindset is not realistic because everything the PMDT did was make changes to 3.02 they did not make 3.5 from scratch so it was developed in comparison to 3.02 and to what they saw as the flaws in 3.02. It was not made in a vacuum. 3.5 is based on 3.02.

Some characters needed things changed because the environment perpetuated a system where characters could rely on centralizing aspects that altered the flow and fundamentals of the game. Diddy Kong, Mewtwo, Charizard, Pit, and Metaknight were the only characters where changes absolutely needed to be made. They were too polarizing. They did not even need the large overwhelming changes that they got.

Diddy Kong all they needed to do was increase the fall speed while charging up special and decrease the distance for charge time ratio. So they got it half right but then went overboard in other areas.

Mewtwo they could have taken teleport-hover out without making him go into free-fall. That was all that was needed.

Charizard they got right but they should have made Heat Wave down special and made side special similar to Smash 4's and removed the glide.

Pit only needed his side special changed. They should have made his side special more like ROB's aerial side special where it gives a short burst of horizontal movement and he should be able to cancel it with an attack or attack out of it. Gliding is too polarizing. Nothing else on him needed to be changed.

Metaknight they could have done to his up special what smash 4 did and he would have been fine.

Some characters they got right. Zelda, Link, Ivysaur, and Lucas are much less polarizing in 3.5 and they got those guys right for sure. However changing Toon Link and Snake as much as they did and nerfing them as much as they did just ruined them.

Ruining and nerfing characters that in no way polarized the game is silly. Toon Link and Snake didn't need to be touched.

 

[Shaoberg]

Just deal with it.

 

[Rᴏb]

I feel like recoveries are still too good.

 

[Stalled]

Any specific offenders? or do you think recoveries are too good in general?

 

[Rᴏb]

Any specific offenders? or do you think recoveries are too good in general?

Hmm, I'd say Diddy, Mewtwo, Lucario, ZSS, MK, DDD, Sonic, Snake and Mario have recoveries that are still a bit too good. I also think that tethers in general are badly designed, but I wouldn't call them too good anymore. Same goes for glides.

 

[Blank Mauser]

I also actually kind of feel things didn't get nerfed enough(Which seems to be a minority complaint about 3.5), though I also feel that because of somewhat character bias. I sit here and have to watch all these other characters still have fun. Even Squirtle got something cool!

One of the main places where I felt 3.5 didn't clarify for me was this:

• Tools that provide excessive burst movement without appropriate risk.

I feel like this was too vague/broad of a category. Also consider that many moves that got nerfed definitely already had risk (Pikachu QAC, Zard Glide) and they were nerfed to the point of being almost useless in neutral. What they really meant was we're nerfing burst movement, if 1)They are executed with the B button or 2)They can be done in the air. Think about the bias that comes from new B button moves.

Example, if you made Sonic's side-B have that same spindash graphic, but instead gave it all the properties of Fox's short hop nair, people would think its the jankiest attack ever. "Wow he can just press side-B and he goes flying across the stage with an active hitbox, which he can cancel and fast fall into almost no lag."

The thing is most people's first reaction is to shield. One of the hardest things to intuitively train someone to react to properly are attacks like that. Things that look like they should be punishable, or seem too good for the effort. Specially when they haven't already figured out the matchup beforehand. Of course things are going to seem like they take a lot less risk than they actually do this way.

What the PMDT could just say is "We want this game to be more of a dash-dance heavy game." And I would've been like fine. I wouldn't necessarily think it would be a good choice, but it would've been a respectable one. Though I think if 3.02 just had nerfed recoveries across the board I would've already thought it to be like the best smash game ever.

Hmm, I'd say Diddy, Mewtwo, Lucario, ZSS, MK, DDD, Sonic, Snake and Mario have recoveries that are still a bit too good. I also think that tethers in general are badly designed, but I wouldn't call them too good anymore. Same goes for glides.

I also don't like tethers. I think that they should have extra lag before they pull-in, and they should perform a hop even when no one is occupying the ledge. You could be having a tight air-skirmish with a tether character only for them to zip to the ledge before you. This certainly mitigates positional advantage while also forcing counterplay to be really one-dimensional. In exchange for my suggested nerfs I would give them more control on the drift, less lag, and the ability to keep their double jump.

Or they could just get like...regular up-B's. I would like that very much honestly.

 

[GabPR]

You do know you can just grab the ledge before they tether right? If they reel in when you are on the ledge they will go into a jump that is much more laggy than 3.0 and its really easy to just let go of the ledge jump and attack or wavedash into the stage and attack, even with slower character.

 

[Blank Mauser]

1) I don't think you understood my post. Thats not why I dislike tethers.

2) Yes I know. Except if they drift back and fast fall back into the ledge, they actually have about the same amount of frames of vulnerability as before. If not less. The counterplay becomes one-dimensional. You commit to a hard waveland punish? Well then you grab the ledge. They commit to punishing your ledge hop backwards? Then you hop on-stage, they're forced to get a less optimal punish. Though sometimes thats still enough, you at least refresh your double jump.

 

[GabPR]

Its not that hard to just wait for them ro hop FIRST.and then follow up. I have had no problem punishing Links and Ivys with different characters by just grabing the ledge when they tether, WAITING for them to hop and then REACT to where they jump, either backwards or foward. Its not always a guarenteed kill, but their jump.os slow enough to recieve appropiate punish. its not as hard as you make it out to be

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Also arguably one of the most gimmicky things in the game is Fox Shine and that's never been touched.

People still consider shines to be a gimmick?lol
Ok
I think you aren't up to speed about shines. They were nerfed and the nerf is kinda a big deal. They lost they frame 1 invincibility/intangability so now, grabs and trades can and will happen. If you've put some time in as a spacie or against one, you will notice plenty of times, every game, where the spacie shines and the other character comes out on top.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Its not that hard to just wait for them ro hop FIRST.and then follow up. I have had no problem punishing Links and Ivys with different characters by just grabing the ledge when they tether, WAITING for them to hop and then REACT to where they jump, either backwards or foward. Its not always a guarenteed kill, but their jump.os slow enough to recieve appropiate punish. its not as hard as you make it out to be

I never said it was hard. I said they're stupid. They aren't even a terrible trade-off for the fact that you can negate bad positioning during off-stage skirmishes. And the counter play to it during edgegaurding is to simply hang on the edge. They're a bad mechanic.

 

[Stalled]

I do agree that taking edge vs a tether char being the best option at all times is stupid but I can't really think of a way to make it less stupid

 

[Blank Mauser]

Make it more similar to a regular Up-B. Once they grab the ledge if they pull in too fast they get the hop, if they wait a bit before pulling in(Which would have start-up after pressing the button) they sweetspot the ledge. The hop lets them retain double jump, act earlier, and drift more in return. Something like that would be more interesting to me personally. You up-B early you can still mitigate a bad position, but you wouldn't have invincibility right away like you do now. Likewise if you wait a bit you risk them hitting you or simply grabbing the ledge before you. And you won't be terribly helpless if they did, because you could DI the attack up and then have your double jump still.

 

[Nyhte]

Changing things "because Melee" like the OP mentioned is hardly sound logic, though. If Project M is no longer Project Melee, why keep drawing on that then? Some changes are nice, like Peach no-lag on closed parasol, but there are things that shouldn't be changed to fit Melee.

Probably as a model or as inspiration.

Not that I'm saying the changes are right or wrong personally

 

[Nuttre]

Okay, i see your points, this isn't brawl minus, or a perfectly balanced game, but who wouldn't agree that watching this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chFhHxRGhYk is not interesting. Let me address one of project m's goals:

A fast-paced game
with flowing, natural movement
where the player has a great degree of control over their character due to the technical skill that they've achieved.
The combos are challenging and spontaneous, with anything longer than 2-3 hits requiring a knowledge of both characters' options and some degree of prediction and/or a deep understanding of the mental aspect of the game.

Would you not agree that Neon, has indeed mastered all of the above and this match is a true exhibition of what project m was supposed to be (ignoring the parts that were blatantly missed i.e. recoveries/edgeguarding)

You could argue that Neon's combos were simple and he did not require a solid understanding of the game, but i say to that:

• Pillaring
• All non-DIable chainthrows
• Fox shining falcon/peach/lucario across the stage into upsmash

Note: Just because its "melee" isn't a valid reason for it to be in the game, this is NOT a melee 1:1 as stated explicitly by PMDT on their website

You could argue that all of the above are character specific and BnB's, but so was the Rufio. As was pit's carry off the stage.

(Also interesting how they removed Tlink's dthrow up B/ uairs, and generally nerfed his combo game)

It also seems that removing three frames of metaknight dtilt IASA is definitely necessary (it just seems like punishment to those who actually used those three frames) but i digress.

The real point i'm trying to make is that the PMDT seems to care less about the goals they had in mind at the start of the project and instead start listening to the fanboys on the forums (not that that's a bad thing, i can play 3.02 if I wanted)

Thanks for reading, sorry if it turned into a rant/nitpick session, and please correct me if i said anything to offend anyone.

 

[Iceman]

Ice climbers were buffed big time

 

[Ness_STFU]

Has the PMDT changed a lot since 3.0? I mean, have members of the team left the project and been replaced with new members?

Just curious.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

So we're gonna end up back at spacies vs anti-spacies again?

They need to hit the source of the problem instead of walking around it.

 

[Zoa]

Lucario's DT doesn't refresh on hit anymore, and the auto snap feature for ES was radically changed. His recovery is good, but requires thought to execute. You can also gimp him if you hit him after doing an aerial DT. Don't forget Luc requires an aura charge to even mix up his recovery, and that's burned out on DT and ES cancels as it is in neutral. And don't forget Luc doesn't have wall cling anymore...

 

[Nuttre]

I think the PMBR decided to nerf things that were deemed stupid and not look at the overall picture

 

[Binary Clone]

People still consider shines to be a gimmick?lol
Ok
I think you aren't up to speed about shines. They were nerfed and the nerf is kinda a big deal. They lost they frame 1 invincibility/intangability so now, grabs and trades can and will happen. If you've put some time in as a spacie or against one, you will notice plenty of times, every game, where the spacie shines and the other character comes out on top.

Oh, right, because a frame-1 combo-starting safe-on-shield jump-cancellable semi-spike stall isn't a gimmick, because now you're not invincible as well.

And it can reflect projectiles, too, I always forget that one.


As to the posts about tethers, I'm still not sure about how I feel on those. They're fairly easy to punish now, but those punishes are, as someone said above, pretty one-dimensional, and there still isn't that much time to actually punish if you don't have a fast aerial.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I mean if you can ledgedash your punishment options open up a bit.

I honestly don't think it's an issue that tether characters have Sheik and Falcon level recovery now? Like, are any of them entitled to a less punishable recovery? Tether characters have precisely as many mix-ups as Sheik does, which is drift to stage, or drift back to ledge. Punishing tethers could possibly be made less braindead, or Olimar buffed, but I think even where it is now it's fan. Given how good Ivy's offstage game (by which I mean back-air) is, I think it's okay that going offstage also entails a lot of risk.

 

[_A1]

I don't see the problem with shine. It's not entirely safe on shield. People can get out of pillaring and waveshine infinites with DI/smash DI mixups. That's why PPMD often times grabs instead of shine. Besides, spacies (especially Falco) underpreform despite how good/broken people think they are. You couldn't even tell that Falco is at #2 on the Melee tier list if you only look at tournament placings.

 

[Binary Clone]

I don't see the problem with shine. It's not entirely safe on shield. People can get out of pillaring and waveshine infinites with DI/smash DI mixups. That's why PPMD often times grabs instead of shine. Besides, spacies (especially Falco) underpreform despite how good/broken people think they are. You couldn't even tell that Falco is at #2 on the Melee tier list if you only look at tournament placings.

Uh.
http://smashboards.com/rankings/melee/league/teams

You can pretty easily tell he's #2 or #3, actually. He's 2nd most common character seen in top 16 and top 8, and he's 3rd most seen winning by 1 under Marth.

 

[Phaiyte]

So much QQ in this thread and not enough actually playing the game

Let me edit this post and cherry pick something on this very page:

Oh, right, because a frame-1 combo-starting safe-on-shield jump-cancellable semi-spike stall isn't a gimmick, because now you're not invincible as well.

And it can reflect projectiles, too, I always forget that one.

Let me start off by saying, if you got hit with shine first, before anything else, that automatically means you played neutral VERY BAD. (read as: your fault) There is literally no way Fox can get in that close without you making a huge commitment mistake. Please git gud. This guy right here is literally just mad because he doesn't know how to play the game lmao. So he hopes to cry in a videogame forum in hopes that one day it will be changed just so he doesn't have to cry so hard or actually try when he plays the game. Shine isn't even that safe on shield. It doesn't even deal significant shield damage, or otherwise my frequent 8-ish multishines in a row would actually mean something. But it doesn't. You can buffer a shield roll. It's jump cancellable on frame 4, and pre dodge roll is only vulnerable for 2 frames usually. That's way more than enough time to buffer a roll with C stick. You just got hit by a shine or know that you're going to get hit by one? Jam the **** out of your C stick in the opposite direction for the SDI. If your character is lighter than Marth, ****ing L2tech roll lmao. Man I can go on and on about how to counter play shines all day, but I feel like I've done enough at midnight.

tl;dr Shine is just a DP. Treat it like one.

Bunch of DSP incarnates in this community I ****ing swear lol

 

[_A1]

@ Binary Clone That's character usage, not placings.

 

[Binary Clone]

@ Binary Clone That's character usage, not placings.

Click "Top: 16" or "Top: 8" or "Top: 1"
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do believe those are placings.

 

[mimgrim]

@ Binary Clone That's character usage, not placings.

Click the Top 16/8/1 numbers on the upper right corner on that page. Those numbers mean the character that get the most placings in tournament at top 16/8/1 respectively for tournaments put onto Smashboards, which is a heavy amount of tournaments.

 

[_A1]

Click "Top: 16" or "Top: 8" or "Top: 1"
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do believe those are placings.

Well, at nationals, you don't see very many Falco mains get Top 16. In this case, the usage-performance ratio doesn't make him look solidly Top 2 in Melee (not saying he isn't though).