Official Hyrule Hangout - Sheik Social

[ArikadoSD]

I have to disagree, Zero knows Sheik pretty well, he doesn't need to do flashy stuff to know the character

He's doing questionable bouncing fishes, messes up fthrow to bf (even though fthrow bf isn't even the greatest option especially in the positions he was), etc. doesn't seem like knowing the character to me.

 

[Shaya]

Meanwhile, Ramin doing analysis of ZeRo's Sheik was a never ending stream of "wow ZeRo's Sheik is really good and plays extremely smart knowing her best options to continue hits/pressure/cover everything the opponent could do".

Sheik is a fundamentals character ANYWAY. Spacing, option coverage/trapping coupled with fantastic reaction speed; that's the top level for every single character essentially and mortals have to live with needing more gimmicky/read based play to overcome shortfalls.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Looking for matchup practice against Sheik. I played Mr. R at CEO in friendlies and was extremely close to taking a game off of him. I want that level of challenge, but want to know who I should ask first. If anyone's willing to go, reply and let me know!

 

[Noso]

Sheik is really good in neutral so I kinda don't really see your point. He's not playing Sheik really different from others. His Sheik is extremely basic and purely fundamentals, you can tell he's not using any Sheik kill setup whatsoever and all his kills are punishing air dodges (reads) with uair or getting them to 180% and killing them off the side with fair.

I don't care what Zero says but his Sheik was really lackluster and he won't get away with it in evo if he plays the same way he was in CEO. He's a great player, don't get me wrong, but not a great Sheik from what I've seen. What's really carrying him is his fundamentals which are way better than the rest of the players and that's why he's winning.

I agree with you in that he didn't have the "sheik flavor" that most of us have to learn. but speaking from a purely analytical stand point, this is a game of fundamentals, and if your fundamentals are better than someone Else's more than likely you will win on an even standing ground... barring something catastrophic happens.

 

[WondrousMoose]

I agree with you in that he didn't have the "sheik flavor" that most of us have to learn. but speaking from a purely analytical stand point, this is a game of fundamentals, and if your fundamentals are better than someone Else's more than likely you will win on an even standing ground... barring something catastrophic happens.

It would've been nice to see more out of his Sheik than SHFF Fair, Uair, needles, and Bouncing Fish. He is an incredibly talented fighter, but as he faces more skilled Sheik users who also have solid fundamentals, he's going to need to step up his game. I feel that ZeRo won CEO with good spacing, good shielding, and good reads, but not good Sheik play.

 

[Noso]

It would've been nice to see more out of his Sheik than SHFF Fair, Uair, needles, and Bouncing Fish. He is an incredibly talented fighter, but as he faces more skilled Sheik users who also have solid fundamentals, he's going to need to step up his game. I feel that ZeRo won CEO with good spacing, good shielding, and good reads, but not good Sheik play.

agreed, and but that's not to take away from his victory though. god knows I still can't SHFF Fair to save my life.

 

[ShinRamen]

His Sheik is basic the same way Armada's Fox is basic; very textbook but mad ****ing good. He understands the strengths of the character in neutral very well (revolving around needles and fair), and as far as KO options go, although d throw up air and killing off the side with fair aren't fancy at all, they are the most practical methods for her to kill. His OoS play with her was some of the best I've seen too.

 

[Jackson]

I actually watched the CEO grand finals on youtube and i have to say Smash 4 was more entertaining than i thought it'd be, looks like the meta is progressing in an interesting way.

 

[Noso]

I'm glad that there was more diversity than FOX/FALCO in the grand finals.

 

[ArikadoSD]

I'm glad that there was more diversity than FOX/FALCO in the grand finals.

this ain't melee bruh

and melee had fox dittos in GFs

 

[Jackson]

^ Yeah. Melee actually saw two sheik players in top 8, which, contrary to the current tier list, is pretty rare. It's cool to see innovation. I also think Fox in Smash 4 is interesting, it's great that Larry Lurr aka DEHF was in top 8.

 

[Noso]

this ain't melee bruh

and melee had fox dittos in GFs

That was my point lol.

 

[Jackson]

Fox/Falco is, in my opinion(and many others), one of melee's best matchups. It's high-octane, the combos are huge, and the characters mess each other up bad. Fun to watch and play.

 

[Joaco]

It would've been nice to see more out of his Sheik than SHFF Fair, Uair, needles, and Bouncing Fish. He is an incredibly talented fighter, but as he faces more skilled Sheik users who also have solid fundamentals, he's going to need to step up his game. I feel that ZeRo won CEO with good spacing, good shielding, and good reads, but not good Sheik play.

Great use of shff fair, uair, needles, bouncing fish, spaciong, and good reads IS good Sheik play, that are the things we should try to master before super situational tech.

His Sheik is basic the same way Armada's Fox is basic; very textbook but mad ****ing good. He understands the strengths of the character in neutral very well (revolving around needles and fair), and as far as KO options go, although d throw up air and killing off the side with fair aren't fancy at all, they are the most practical methods for her to kill. His OoS play with her was some of the best I've seen too.

Your description was on point, Zero abuses Sheik's best options and know them pretty well, it may be less interesting to watch than other Sheiks but his game was more effective.

 

[ArikadoSD]

Here are some pro top-level Sheiks everyone should look for. They're probably the best in the world too as it stands. If you need to step up your gameplay, you should watch them.

LLL Mr. R - obviously, because he's probably the best Sheik player right now. Very technical and goes for the most efficient punish ever, and has insane Sheik knowledge.

LoF False - inconsistent and sloppy at times, ****ing amazing at others. One of the top US Sheik players.

gsm VoiD - extremely creative Sheik player that's extremely technical. Underdog from Hawaii, shame we don't see much of him in streamed tournaments afaik. He uses combos and set ups with penetrating needles that no one else does, and even does some stuff with Utilt sometimes.

iQHQ Vinnie - He surprised me when he debuted with his Sheik (after being a ROB main iirc) but he's also very on-point and technical.

Cacogen - not much to say here because I honestly haven't seen much of him, but he's apparently really good.

Other good Sheik players include Master Raven, Phuzix, K9 (although I don't agree with a lot of options he goes for), and more recently, ZeRo.

(none of these were in order, but I do believe Mr. R is the best)

 

[WondrousMoose]

I've been having some fun with grenades recently. If you jump up to a platform so that part of Sheik's body goes over it, but not enough that she'll land on it, and then throw a grenade, it'll still land on it. This puts pressure above and below the platform, allowing for some cool pressure. I've had success with any part of her from her chin to her ankles at platform-level.

 

[ArikadoSD]

So.. I don't know who it was in particular that mentioned this a while back, but I saw posts about grab release to bouncing fish. I just tried it out. I'm not sure if this is something wrong with training mode, but I'm grabbing Mario and pummeling him, and after releasing and using bouncing fish, the pummels + bf count as a true combo.. idk if this means anything, but if it does mean grab release to bf is guaranteed, then holy **** that's nice.

 

[Emblem Lord]

The release isn't real. Sorry to burst your bubble. Though I was sad too when someone air dodged out of it.

Anyway, thats not what I'm here for. I recently lost to a Sheik in tourney vs my Ryu and I have no idea how this match-up goes. Was hoping I could get someone to spar with me. East coast of USA is preferable.

 

[WondrousMoose]

Woops. My bad.

 

[ArikadoSD]

oh my god.

 

[Noso]

Cacogen - not much to say here because I honestly haven't seen much of him, but he's apparently really good.

I've had a few matches with him on FG, and he's very good. I'm kinda sad though that I haven't seen any post by him here on the boards. I know he has an account on the smash ladder though.

 

[Noso]

btw, is the skype group for sheik still up? I'd like to join it if it is.

 

[ArikadoSD]

btw, is the skype group for sheik still up? I'd like to join it if it is.

yeah, give me ur skype ID

 

[Noso]

yeah, give me ur skype ID

sent it to you in a PM

 

[ArikadoSD]

Was talking in the skype chat about grab releases and I'm lazy to write about it here so I'll just c/p the chat logs:

[7:32:20] Bader / Arikado: so anyway
[7:32:29] Bader / Arikado: remember when I was talking about grab release bf the other day?
[7:32:33] Bader / Arikado: I just thought of something
[7:32:39] Bader / Arikado: why don't we utilize grab releases in general ?
[7:32:52] Bader / Arikado: pummels can lead to good damage anyway and
[7:32:56] Bader / Arikado: against short characters
[7:33:05] Bader / Arikado: whose feet don't touch the ground
[7:33:11] Bryan Torres: True
[7:33:14] Bader / Arikado: they can be put in a really bad position
[7:33:15] Bryan Torres: I might lab that tomorrow
[7:33:19] Bader / Arikado: if they get grab released and they air dodge
[7:33:24] Bader / Arikado: if they double jump we can clip them with bf
[7:33:32] Bader / Arikado: if they air dodge.. they're gonna punished easily too
[7:33:33] Bryan Torres: Bader you genious
[7:33:36] Bader / Arikado: kinda leads to a 50/50
[7:33:44] Bader / Arikado: unless they got a broken nair like luigi's/yoshi's

Right now its purely theory and I could be very wrong but it sounds promising

 

[pokio55]

Hello world of sheiks! I thank thee for bringing me to such a place!

 

[Swamp Sensei]

The Kutthroats have set out to draw their character thanking Iwata for all he has done.

We invite you to do the same.

 

[Quickhero]

The Kutthroats have set out to draw their character thanking Iwata for all he has done.

We invite you to do the same.

Posting in this thread should foreshadow whom I am about to draw, but when will the compilation be done?

I should be able to get it done today, but I mean I plan on it taking a while to finish.

EDIT: Sometimes I'm a ****ing idiot, I should really do a character from another game, but I feel like I'd be faking it if otherwise so I'm just going to back off. Rest in peace, Iwata.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I'm working on potential changes to outlier characters with the intention of balancing the cast without removing current feel. First up is Sheik, and I'd like your thoughts.

http://pastebin.com/Hgg8fv50

 

[ArikadoSD]

Changing bouncing fish so much is something i'm not really liking. People often look at needles and fair when they look at how good Sheik is but that's only half of it, the other half is her amazing mobility, mostly thanks to bouncing fish. So removing that and nerfing everything else good she has sounds pretty bad.

 

[WondrousMoose]

I'm working on potential changes to outlier characters with the intention of balancing the cast without removing current feel. First up is Sheik, and I'd like your thoughts.

http://pastebin.com/Hgg8fv50

Any nerfs hurt, but those seem pretty reasonable. The thing that stands out to me is the needle knockback, which could affect current combos. Bair power is always appreciated. Bouncing Fish changes are interesting.

 

[ArikadoSD]

Also needles are already unsafe to hit in close quarters anyway, and I agree with WondrousMoose. I like my needle combos.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Her lack of commitment has to be curbed in the name of playability for the cast as a whole. The changes to Needles are also there to make B-Reversing out of a run less powerful. I thought about making Needles always do 1.2 damage even when up close (as compared to 1.9, as they are now), but that would really hurt their ability as a regular poking/projectile tool, which I feel is more hurtful to its original use. Having potential reads instead of combos out of a successful Needle Storm is a good thing for the game as a whole, as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Illuminose]

Just nerf needles kbg and fair range and Sheik is fine. The other nerfs are pretty overkill. Bouncing fish isn't a remotely problematic move and neither really is vanish (increasing invuln kinda makes sense, removing the autocancel is stupid). Nerfing fair's autocancel kills her as a character. Spacing with forward air is pretty much her entire neutral outside needles. Forward air combos are an insane portion of her combo game. She drops like 10-15 spots on the tier list if forward air has lag because it pretty much ruins her spacing and punishes. Who cares about needle B-reversing out of a run, it's just a cool movement option and bait tool. It's not even close to problematic.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Posting in this thread should foreshadow whom I am about to draw, but when will the compilation be done?

I should be able to get it done today, but I mean I plan on it taking a while to finish.

EDIT: Sometimes I'm a ****ing idiot, I should really do a character from another game, but I feel like I'd be faking it if otherwise so I'm just going to back off. Rest in peace, Iwata.

It'll be done in about a week or so.

 

[ShinRamen]

The only nerf I agree with strongly is the reduction/removal of invincibility frames on vanish. It makes going for an airdodge read with it after d throw at high percents much riskier, as the opponent can simply throw out a hitbox, and it also makes going off stage more of a commitment for her; edgeguarding and off stage play is cool, but the fact that there's such little risk for doing it with Sheik relative to the other characters is lame.

Nerfing needle damage could work, weakening her command in neutral at range because getting hit by them isn't as big of a deal. Adding end lag to remove a cool combo is, well, not cool.

I don't think giving her the old bair back is a good idea either - she doesn't deserve a reasonably safe kill option. She's the classic example of a fast character that can hit a lot, but each hit is less damaging, and struggles to deliver the finishing blow.

Adding lag to fair ruins her. Sheik pretty much is fast fall fair; it's what makes her great, and without it is she is completely different; indeed, it would very much change the 'feel' you intend on keeping. It would take away combos, a spacing tool, so much. It by nerfing fair, not only do you reduce it's effectiveness, but you also make it less threatening., removing a layer of mindgames in neutral.

I'm still very much an advocate of buffs rather than nerfs. Why not give other characters safer options, or give them much greater reward for landing high-risk moves? Wario, for example, doesn't get much reward for hitting an upsmash, which can't be combo'd into and lands mostly as the result of a read, or well thought out option-coverage. He's not the best at racking up damage, but depends very much on the fart (and/or the threat of it) to take a stock. Perhaps he deserves a better, safer KO option, and Wario isn't even a low tier character - actual low tier characters could see much greater improvements, making them more fun and less punishing to choose to play.

Sheik isn't really close to brawl MK. Given time, and huge character development, people found methods to deal with what seemed to be broken. Regardless, he continued to dominate tournament placements, which made a solid argument for him just being too good. This hasn't happened with Sheik - in fact, she's not really winning so many tournaments at all!

Relying upon nerfs to top tiers hinders meta-development of lower tier characters. The hope that "She'll be patched next" stops one from working hard to find methods to deal with her. There will always be a 'best character', but the job of the balance testers is to make it hard to determine - to make the creation of a tier list difficult. This would involve shifting the characters to a certain standard - why not make that standard high?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

You can still use F-Air just as effectively except for in specific situations; it still combos into itself well, and it can still be autocanceled if used when rising with it. The threat of that with her horizontal aerial mobility is still incredible, allowing her to get her empty jumps into Jabs and Grabs. Any extra endlag on F-Air is the same as when you use it right before you hit the ground, which you can combo from just fine. I can't say that I have much sympathy; she would still dominate neutral against the vast majority of characters.

Keep in mind that other characters are getting similar treatment. This is not a Sheik-only endeavor.

 

[Illuminose]

Giving other characters a similar treatment is a dumb endeavor. All this does is neuter the overall power level of the cast which makes the game less interesting/fun while making current high tiers top tier. The nerfs you're proposing are overt and unnecessary for the most part. Characters are allowed to be better than others. Perfect balance is impossible anyways, you just get a new group of unbalanced characters by nature of the game. Nerfs should only be done as absolutely necessary. It's a much more interesting thought experiment to think about minor nerfs to curb the super ridiculous aspects of certain top tiers and how to buff worse characters to make them more viable. Like, think this:

Sheik - nerf fair range and nerf needle kbg

Rosalina - nerf luma uair kb and nerf jab 3 kbg

Luigi - decrease damage of bair by 2%, decrease vertical height that can be gained from tornado

Pikachu - add slightly more end lag to quick attack

Basically the top tiers that might actually need slight nerfs. Low tier characters will never be viable unless you actually buff them, and there are ways to do this with all of them that allow them to compete. Think of it this way -- you have a lot more happy players and a lot fewer angry players, and the character balance is significantly better overall. Win-win.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

The ability to essentially ignore disadvantaged states by using Down-B anytime you're at risk of being juggled is really unhealthy for the game. It's one of the biggest differences between the best characters and everyone else, and it significantly diminishes the advantage of getting characters above you. There is no way you'll be able to convince me that the current state of moves like Bouncing Fish and Flip Jump is healthy for the metagame.

 

[ShinRamen]

She would only dominate neutral against the vast majority of characters if they weren't given better options. Your lack of sympathy would be perfectly reasonable if this was just a change to sheik; she would drop from being the best character to a great one(which would direct complaints to the next in-line), but as you say, this is a whole-cast endeavor. I do, however, appreciate this project you're undertaking (assuming that "treatment" involves improvements to many low tier characters).

On bouncing fish as an escape option, if you're letting your opponent get away with using it every time they're above you, you're doing something wrong - it can be read, and punished hard.

EDIT:

Upon re-reading your nerf suggestions, I actually think that your idea for fair makes a lot of sense, and prefer this to the suggested range-nerfs. However, again, only if we intend on nerfing top tiers/sheik only, as opposed to a re-balance of the entire cast (that I think should consist of almost purely buffs to low and mid tiers, as I said in my earlier post).