Official Hyrule Hangout - Sheik Social

[_Tree]

Which members of the cast do you all think are advantageous secondaries for a Sheik main?

I may be a bit biased because of my love for Zelda, but generally my secondaries are Link, Zelda and Ganondorf. I do honestly believe that Ganondorf is incredibly underrated and very viable in this game, simply because he hits so hard and kills so early. My friend was styling on me with a huge combo as Captain Falcon bringing me up to 40% straight off the bat. After that, however, I land two hits and bring him up to nearly the same percent, because I read him well and punished accordingly. That's where Ganondorf excels: Punishing. If I find myself able to easily punish an opponent with Sheik but unable to kill (a bit of a weird situation, but it happens), I'll switch to Dorf in order to cash in much more on those punishes, and killing is no problem at all. His side-B is the ultimate punish too, leading into tech chases and being able to close out a set in an instant. With the two stock format that many people are aiming for, his ganoncide becomes much more useful. It's also fun to have a character that contrasts hugely with my main (slow and powerful as opposed to quick and weak), and helps with people who are used to seeing me play fast characters, making them generally in the dark with how I play slow ones.

He's Nintendo's equivalent to Lordgernome from Gurren Lagann as well, so that's reason enough to play him.

Link and Zelda are both kind of in the same boat, being characters that rely on projectiles and zoning. I prefer them over characters like Mega man and Villager as they're still a threat up close (more-so with Link). While I don't have these characters for any particular reason like Ganondorf, I think it's important to have some skill in a character from every play style, in case there's a match-up that is strongly in the favour of a zoning character, or incredibly against your main. Zelda is pretty much a Stand user in this game as well, so I have to play her for that.

Am I saying that I want my characters to imitate anime characters? Maybe. I rarely switch out from Sheik due to how good she is and how much I enjoy playing her, but the others provide a good alternative, whether it's needed because of a match-up or because the need for variety.

 

[Absol]

Who are you all using as secondaries in Smash 4? Which characters do you think work well as secondaries to Sheik?

I'm asking this because I understand that realistically, there are some matchups that may not go in my favor as a Sheik main, or that may go better if someone already knows how I play Sheik.

Which members of the cast do you all think are advantageous secondaries for a Sheik main?

PAC-MAN

 

[Tristan_win]

Who are you all using as secondaries in Smash 4? Which characters do you think work well as secondaries to Sheik?

I'm asking this because I understand that realistically, there are some matchups that may not go in my favor as a Sheik main, or that may go better if someone already knows how I play Sheik.

Which members of the cast do you all think are advantageous secondaries for a Sheik main?

Being a purest to a fault in all the smash games I see if I change from Sheik I already lost but... I do have a few secondaries, mostly due to how amazing smash4 is.

Captain Falcon (Yes)
-
Mario (Everyone one should have a pocket Mario, just cause)
Zero suit Samus? (Need more practice)
Lucario (Know thy enemy)

Out of those I think Captain Falcon honestly covers Sheik best as in those match up's where as @ _Tree said if you are able to read them but not punish enough to kill. Then having that extra umfp helps. I'm not sure how exactly his Lucario match up is but due to Lucario move set poor speed and lack of approach options I can see it working out. Captain Falcon is also fat muscular and can live for a fairly long time.

 

[Wasserwipf]

Which members of the cast do you all think are advantageous secondaries for a Sheik main?

I do recommend every Sheik main to actually check out mii brawler. Imagine a slower Sheik with much much kill power instead... and no greeat camp game. But overall they feel similar, you can do similar things (even tho miis recovery can totally play against you).
I think Mii's a good choice as he's similar, but he does better in MU's where you are supposed to kill early. So they allow you to not think completly different while still covering each others back.

On the other side, I'm currently looking into WFT. Believe me, that thing is actually gold. I don't know how far you can take her, but from what i see its not that bad. She is rather slow, but has really good close combat control (once you figured how to use her reverse hitboxes you shoulkd start loving them) and a decent projectile / zoning game as well. Still, I'm not sure how good she is, as i really lack experience with anything but Sheik.

 

[Syde7]

A quick request for the folks who are far superior at testing things out than I (and I apologize if this info is buried somewhere in the forums)

I would love to see a list of:

1. Projectiles that one can BF over and successfully hit the opponent during their projectile cooldown. A list where both folks are "standing" with standard length bouncing fish, with immediate release of projectiles (where one can charge; such as Samus' charge shot) would be a good enough start; but would love to know the diff variables (BF length, at SH heights, FJ heights, diff charge states, etc). List would include MM's F-smash, and other similar "melee" moves that register in some way as a projectile.
2. Moves that have sufficient cooldown where one could land a BF during the lag.

Many thanks in advance.

 

[Wasserwipf]

A quick request for the folks who are far superior at testing things out than I (and I apologize if this info is buried somewhere in the forums)

I would love to see a list of:

1. Projectiles that one can BF over and successfully hit the opponent during their projectile cooldown. A list where both folks are "standing" with standard length bouncing fish, with immediate release of projectiles (where one can charge; such as Samus' charge shot) would be a good enough start; but would love to know the diff variables (BF length, at SH heights, FJ heights, diff charge states, etc). List would include MM's F-smash, and other similar "melee" moves that register in some way as a projectile.
2. Moves that have sufficient cooldown where one could land a BF during the lag.

Many thanks in advance.

Mh, that would require testing... every single move of every single character, more or less. And since there is no list on cooldowns yet, you cannot even calculate/guess by frame data.
For the projectiles, as a rule for thumb. Everything that is smaller or about the size of a fully charged aura sphere of an uncharged Lucario is punishable with BF. The rest is reaction time. Ok maybe Luigis fireballs won't work. Everything else, easy, if you're fast enough.

I would recommend playing a lot, you should learn over time when you can land a Bouncing Fish and when not. Also, why just default BF? Shorthop BF makes your approach way better as you are higher...
I will see what I can do.

 

[Locke 06]

Hey Sheikahs! The Mega Man Matchup Thread is tackling the Sheik matchup for the entirety of this week. It would be great if you could come over and help out. Thanks!

 

[Killtrox]

Is it just me or does it seem like Ness is an actual counter to Sheik? His aerials take priority over uair and bouncing fish, and his fair/nair clink with Sheik's fair. Furthermore, depending on percentage, if you get caught by a PK fire, it's a guaranteed throw -> fair combo.

I honestly think that Ness and Fox are my toughest matchups, but for some reason I can't seem to overcome even mediocre Ness players. It seems like I have to try twice as hard just to land a hit.

 

[?.?]

You're not alone, that MU no matter the skill levels can be hard... I went to my friends place and got in some good matches with peeps like virgil and mink. Some ness player showed up and in about 5 sets I think I took one game off him. Just talk to scaryed about that MU as he fights Shaky a lot and shaky is good. I honestly feel that that MU will have to be played a lot safer than almost any other... Going in just doesn't seem worth it, the one Match I won I managed to maintain stage control most of the time abusing things such as retreating fairs and tomahawks when he did something unsafe.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Hi sheik players

I main sheik nao, I play like a campy ***** with needles

I think I'm doing it right, started playing her about 4 or 5 days ago, I think I'm getting good.

Gotta learn the chaingrab now (Is this still a thing? @ Tristan_win )

 

[Tristan_win]

Hi sheik players

I main sheik nao, I play like a campy ***** with needles

I think I'm doing it right, started playing her about 4 or 5 days ago, I think I'm getting good.

Gotta learn the chaingrab now (Is this still a thing? @ Tristan_win )

I honestly don't know anymore. That was something I originally avoided due to the lack of C stick on the 3ds and poor internet connection to my testing partners but according to Izaw thread he claimed to test it with a opponent trying to jump out of it so at the very least if done correctly they can't jump out.

Oh and welcome! It's great to have another bright mind in the Sheik forum!

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Oh yes! I saw that video, well, listened to might be a better word.

I should listen to it again because I couldn't figure out how to use specials during charging Needle Storm.

 

[Absol]

Oh yes! I saw that video, well, listened to might be a better word.

I should listen to it again because I couldn't figure out how to use specials during charging Needle Storm.

I find it easier if L is shield and R is special while just pressing them roughly at the same time with a direction of the stick

 

[KuroganeHammer]

SUPER GREAT

Going to work now but will be practising the chaingrab later.

Does anyone else think Vanish Gliding will be super important now? It was swag in Brawl but now you can edge guard and trump with it into fall off Bair.

I want to make a frame data thread.

 

[Wasserwipf]

SUPER GREAT

Going to work now but will be practising the chaingrab later.

Does anyone else think Vanish Gliding will be super important now? It was swag in Brawl but now you can edge guard and trump with it into fall off Bair.

I want to make a frame data thread.

Always great to see new Sheik mains

Most of us are using vanish gliding (and some even fidget up-B) pretty much all the time, so your assumption is correct.

As for Frame data, I was a bit bored today, so I made a basic chart which features duration of most moves, but still incomplete. I wanted to post it so that we can prevent doing work twice... or something like that
Wasserwipfs Sheik frame data V 1.0

#frames usually states the complete duration of the move. "power shield" is only a vague guess, should be red actually. Red numbers imply that they are probably wrong. Hope that helps a bit.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

That's a cute table there

I was thinking something like this though :

http://smashboards.com/threads/charizards-frame-data-1-0-4.384443/

 

[Absol]

That's a cute table there

I was thinking something like this though :

http://smashboards.com/threads/charizards-frame-data-1-0-4.384443/

Can we keep him?

 

[Tristan_win]

Can we keep him?

-Leaves out some milk and tuna-

He's still wild, all we can do is feed him and hope he's stay around.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Well that settles it, I'll finish Charizard and move onto Sheik.

Meow

 

[ArikadoSD]

Who are you all using as secondaries in Smash 4? Which characters do you think work well as secondaries to Sheik?

I'm asking this because I understand that realistically, there are some matchups that may not go in my favor as a Sheik main, or that may go better if someone already knows how I play Sheik.

Which members of the cast do you all think are advantageous secondaries for a Sheik main?

I main Sheik obviously but I also playvMarth fairly a lot so thats my secondary i guess. I play falcon and fox to mess around in FG but never for real matches

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I've very much started a base for my frame data topic. I'd like to create an image for Sheik like the one on the Charizard thread. They're not meant to be taken as 100% fact but I do want to be able to give people an idea of what a character's strengths are, being broken down into offensive (damage racking, KO potential, approach strength etc), defensive (camping, ability to stop approaches, OoS options, super armor/intangibility etc) and whatnot

Can someone (@ Tristan_win ? I like you) give me a round about figure of where Sheik sits on these catagories? Basically rate them from 1 to 10.

I already have weight/speed/recovery since these are things that are backed by facts like this and various other data topics. Recovery I have penciled in as 9/10 based on the fact that Sheik's recovery is literally absurd.

 

[Tristan_win]

I've very much started a base for my frame data topic. I'd like to create an image for Sheik like the one on the Charizard thread. They're not meant to be taken as 100% fact but I do want to be able to give people an idea of what a character's strengths are, being broken down into offensive (damage racking, KO potential, approach strength etc), defensive (camping, ability to stop approaches, OoS options, super armor/intangibility etc) and whatnot

Can someone (@ Tristan_win ? I like you) give me a round about figure of where Sheik sits on these catagories? Basically rate them from 1 to 10.

I already have weight/speed/recovery since these are things that are backed by facts like this and various other data topics. Recovery I have penciled in as 9/10 based on the fact that Sheik's recovery is literally absurd.

I'm hyper bias so I don't know how trustworthy my numbers will be but sure.

offense 9
Fair is a safe on shield combo starter with surprising large range and has so little lag, fairly safe ftilt on shield and combo starter, jabs while not the best get the job done and has surprisingly good utility, quick and long reaching dash attack, a fairly safe on block disjointed sheik size projectile that can avoid other projectiles with good damage and knock back and a outstanding combo game enhancing all of this greatly. Lack of damage is why it's not 10.
defense 7
A ****ty dsmash, a low range and ineffective OoS nair, a bair that comes out too high in certain cases, no 1 frame IF ooS option, no super armor, a fairly normal range grab (I think) and poor area control right above Sheik. Rich people problems. It's still good just not the best in the game. It's really hard though to separating offense with defense when it comes to Sheik as I'm trying not to consider punishing people when they disrespect Sheik space as defensive. Still with that all said it's still really good as it forces people into uncomfortable positions which allows us to switch to offensive.
edit: I tend to think very defensively so if you want more info for my rating I could go on.
speed idk, 8?
Why is Charzard so high? Lol. I'm no expert but if Charizard is a 7 then Sheik a 11.
recovery 9
Bouncing fish covers so much distance with so little cool down and vanish is too good. It sort of pisses me off and makes we wish the ledge grab range wasn't so high or so rough to punish.
weight ~
I'll let you handle that senpai but this should be her lowest ranking
difficulty 'Unknown'
This one is really difficult for me to answer and I feel my bias and my lackluster skill prevents me to answer this completely. On one hand Sheik is super easy to use if you know what your doing when it comes to playing smash. There's no avoiding it, Sheik is hard to punish and has a forgiving recovery so any good player would be able to abuse this...However on the other hand if your not very good at this game Sheik is horrible, much worst then most as you can't combo very well and can't kill at all. Killing is really the major issue for most newer players. Sheik difficult in learning how to use her is directly connected to the skill of the user more so then some other characters.

Or at least that's what I like to think.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Thanks for this write up, I want to respond in the morning because it's 50 mins past my bed time, but I will just mention that Charizard's a 7 in speed because he's the 8th fastest character in the game on the ground.

Sheik is the 7th fastest.

Ground speed is like, 75% of a characters mobility under most circumstances (some exceptions exist, like Jiggs), but Charizard's 43rd slowest air speed does hurt it a bit which is why it sits at 7.

I would be happy to put Sheik at 9 considering she has the 7th fastest run speed, 11th fastest air speed, 5th fastest walk speed, 6th fastest fall speed and 7th fastest fast fall speed. The only characters I would consider giving a 10 would be... Sonic. Maybe Fox too.

I want to avoid 10's in general.

Weight would be 4/10 cuz she's pretty light.

 

[Killtrox]

You're not alone, that MU no matter the skill levels can be hard... I went to my friends place and got in some good matches with peeps like virgil and mink. Some ness player showed up and in about 5 sets I think I took one game off him. Just talk to scaryed about that MU as he fights Shaky a lot and shaky is good. I honestly feel that that MU will have to be played a lot safer than almost any other... Going in just doesn't seem worth it, the one Match I won I managed to maintain stage control most of the time abusing things such as retreating fairs and tomahawks when he did something unsafe.

Who is scaryed?

And yeah, I know aaaaaall about Shaky, lol. He dominated Hbox's pre-Paragon tourney a few weeks ago. I'm not sure how he makes Ness look so fast, though. I feel like fast-falling isn't even possible with him.

But yeah, does scaryed have a username on here, or could we page him over to this thread somehow?

 

[?.?]

Who is scaryed?

And yeah, I know aaaaaall about Shaky, lol. He dominated Hbox's pre-Paragon tourney a few weeks ago. I'm not sure how he makes Ness look so fast, though. I feel like fast-falling isn't even possible with him.

But yeah, does scaryed have a username on here, or could we page him over to this thread somehow?

Oh right forgot he goes by "#HBC | Scary" on here. He's an old sheik main from the brawl days who did some crazy stuff and was quite good.

@ KuroganeHammer Welcome to the one of the best boards I've been a member of, glad to have you and we all look forward to your work!

 

[KuroganeHammer]

@ ?.? I remember you from the project m zss boards

 

[Absol]

HEY I was a great Sheik main in brawl too.

I did...stuff.

Thank god too, smore clicked with me quickly

 

[Tristan_win]

I almost don't want to post this here due to how.... rough it is but this is a very basic idea of how big Sheik Usmash tipper is.

Basically it's a lot bigger then what one would think.

Everything within the lines is where the hit box is. I had Sheik roll to the edge and then started slowly inching Mega man until the Usmash would hit. You can ignore the numbers if you want. I only draw them because I was comparing pictures and got tried of recounting sections. You will also notice the picture is mirrored, well that's because I only tested 1 way but it would make sense for a move like usmash to have identical range in both directions.

Spoiler

Full picture

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I saw this yesterday and was like wtf am I looking at

Does it hit on platform 6?

I might be able to........ Hmm.

 

[Tristan_win]

I saw this yesterday and was like wtf am I looking at

Does it hit on platform 6?

I might be able to........ Hmm.

._. I've never tried to draw hit boxes until then so I don't blame you. Anyways yeah it can hit on platform 6.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Well first of all they're circles, not... squares. So you've found the range as it is for a quarter of the circle.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Edit: There's actually two hitboxes on this move during the sweetspot, I just guessed where the second (Yellow) would be.

 

[Tristan_win]

View attachment 35858

Edit: There's actually two hitboxes on this move during the sweetspot, I just guessed where the second (Yellow) would be.

Hm, yeah I knew they were circles but when I tried drawing a circle that would cover the full range I found it would either be too big or like in your example too small.

Judging from that picture it looks like Sheik usmash wouldn't be able to hit on platform 6 or reach as far as 9.

edit: My thinking that it was just 1 tipper hit box most likely is incorrect though which is why it seem so impossible.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

ok gurls

http://smashboards.com/threads/sheik-frame-data-1-0-4.387024/

I'll slowly update this with more information as we go

 

[Rizen]

ok gurls

You're still a Zelda at heart Good work

I'm casually learning Sheik. She's not my normal play-style so it's challenging but a good experience.

 

[Tristan_win]

So... Today been a good day.

@ ArikadoSD brought to everyone attention that Fthrow can combo into Usmash. At first I questing this and even thought that BF would always be the better option but after thinking about it a bit more I realize that landing usmash puts you in a superior position over BF and is a better pick if you predict your opponent going to DI away. This is most likely only be a very low percentage option though.

After that I did some testing on Ftilt and it seems you can combo it into Usmash. DI up does nothing really, DI toward you makes it easier for you, DI up and towards you do nothing so they have to dI away or DI away and up. If they DI away it does require you to dash forward a bit though but it still works, same with di away and up. Sheik Ftilt into Usmash does 19%.

I think this might be my next project.

Results so far with DI with the help of @Virgman
Point blank ftilt into usmash
Mario
45-60
Diddy Kong
40-71
Rosalina
35-50

This can also work if you hit with the tip of the Ftilt but if they DI away they will most likely escape in the higher percents....HOWEVER Tipper ftilt has more knock back so Bouncing fish becomes a option.

We only briefly tested it but we got it to work with DI on Diddy at 60%
These are the training mode numbers I gather just now~
Ftilt tipper into BF
Diddy 55-75

We also found out that if you walk SUPER SUPER slowly forward and hit 'A' you wont Ftilt but jab instead. Isn't that lovely? -,-

 

[Wasserwipf]

This fits here best. Thats me and @ Tristan_win , we had some fun the other day.
Oh and if anyone want a cool new avatar or something:

Spoiler: Sheik BF Ava

 

[Zankoku]

Looks like we're starting to get a lot of informative threads, gonna consider unstickying stuff and making a sticky with links to everything.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Been playing Sheik for a few days, just finished at a tournament placing 5th of 53 people using almost exclusively Sheik.

Very proud atm, sounds like I'll be sticking with her.

 

[Ralph Cecil]

Might be showing up around here more. ^_^ Avoided it at first because a lot of the other boards are kind of goofy right now, but the Sheik boards seem fairly organized.