Hyrule Duels - Zelda Sm4sh Video Thread

[onehundredhitz]

Few more matches uploaded against Tyler from Tennessee. This dude was actually bodying me for a good amount of matches, which I also have replays of. I'll upload those later.

 

[onehundredhitz]

I got bodied by this chick on FG by the name of Kometaro, who played an extremely mean Villager. Like, bruh. She was making me freak out.

Zylach Your input here would definitely be much appreciated, because I absolutely did not know how to handle her properly as Zelda (Or any other character, for that matter)

 

[Zylach]

I got bodied by this chick on FG by the name of Kometaro, who played an extremely mean Villager. Like, bruh. She was making me freak out.

Zylach Your input here would definitely be much appreciated, because I absolutely did not know how to handle her properly as Zelda (Or any other character, for that matter)

I actually thought you handled that quite well. If that's you when you don't know how to handle someone properly, then I fear you knowing perfectly well how to handle someone lol. That first game went well despite the first stock. Looks like you just needed some time to download him. Unfortunate that FW snipe didn't sweetspot.

Stuff I liked:

1. You were generally safe while spacing in the neutral using jab and dtilt against him on the ground and you followed up appropriately from hit confirms.

2. You were patient. That's what defines a good Zelda player especially against Villager because his whole gameplan is to get you on tilt and make mistakes. You slipped up a bit early on but made up for it especially in game 2.

3. Effective use of Din's Fire. It's actually useful in this MU and I'm glad it worked out in your favor for the most part. Since Villager can't pocket it and can't block it with his tree, it's a better tool against him than most since it messes up his gameplan.

4. You didn't try to force anything later on. It's easy to feel the need to go aggressive against Villager since it's usually the case that rushing down a zoning character is the way to go since they often have trouble up close but Villager doesn't and I like the option to slowly approach him as he threw stuff at you and engage him in a game of spacing rather than projectile zoning like he wants.

5. You adapted. You figured him out. You knew what you did wrong and you fixed it. This is the key to sm4sh.

Some stuff I picked up on:

1. Don't get too jump happy against Villager. Villager wants you in the air, it's why he sends Lloyd rockets at you, to force you to either shield or jump. When he sends a Lloyd rocket at you, the better option for Zelda is to shield for two reasons. 1) Zelda does better OoS than she does in the air especially against Villager whose fair/bair will tack on continuous damage and zone us out forever if we keep going in the air. 2) Villager's grab game is pathetic. He has no followups from his throws at all so getting grabbed by him in nearly always harmless, not to mention his grab is slower than ours so it's not as difficult to avoid it if we know he wants to go for the grab with a roll (Since he's throwing Lloyd's at you to get you to either jump or shield, he'll be searching for the grab every time you shield). Stick to your ground game no matter how annoying those Lloyd rockets are against your shield. Also be wary of reflecting them. Several times he sent Lloyd rockets at you expecting you to reflect it and got easy dair punishes for it. Only reflect them when you know you won't get punished for it. Plus, if he pockets it, it just gives him another projectile to throw at you.

2. Use phantom sparingly against Villager. The pocket is a deadly tool with a phantom in it. If you do use it, don't charge it up all the way. Make him guess when you'll release it so he'll pocket at the wrong time and get hit by it anyway or force him to just back off completely to give you some time to breathe.

3. Dthrow>uair is a better option than dthrow>nair when the opponent is above about 30%. Small detail but you'll rack up damage a lot better when you're capitalizing on your throws.

4. Always shield Villager's aerials. You got some good usmashes by challenging him when he was in the air. At the same time, better villagers will generally have the spacing on dair to straight up beat our usmash and utilt though those will beat his nair. Minor nitpick in case you face even better Villagers since your challenges against this one paid off fairly well.

5. A risky option if Villager pockets your phantom is to reflect it back at him. Good villagers will save something like that for when you're least expecting it but I could tell you expected it the two times he sent it back at you. NL would've ended his stock right there. Again, it is a riskier option but it looked like you had the forethought to do it.

6. Zelda can't challenge Villager up close. She doesn't have the frame data for it. If Villager approaches you with a nair or dair, you have to be patient and wait for him to land most of the time (Unless he's messed up his spacing and hit your shield long before he lands) and continue in a defensive manner against his jab followup which is almost always going to happen. Usually, it's safe to roll away and just reset the situation. Villager actually can't force us to approach him unless he's got a favorable percent lead on us since phantom blocks his Lloyd rocket and Din's goes past his tree while NL reflects his tree.

7. Gotta hit those dairs. Villager's recovery is both super easy to exploit and also super tricky to exploit since he can alter how fast he goes with his balloons but he has no hitbox so there's no penalty for mistiming a dair other than missing the spike and recovering at the same time as your opponent. If you're not feeling confident about hitting dairs on Villager, you can opt for a nair or NL just to tack on some extra damage and keep him in an unfavorable position until he decides to do something different while recovering. He went straight up every time so he didn't decide to do anything different. Make him pay! Also, when punishing Villager's landing after Balloon trip, don't go in the air after him since our aerials are hard to hit when we can opt for a dash attack, fsmash, or usmash as he lands for just as much reward.

That's all I got. Still liking your style. You could probably do fairly well in a tournament setting if you've got some locals near you. I'd highly recommend if you're looking to be competitive with Zelda.

 

[riku45]

Anyone got any tips for my Zelda?

 

[Zylach]

Anyone got any tips for my Zelda?

Well, the first thing I'll point out is that the Sheik you faced wasn't amazing. I suspect that was only remotely challenging because Sheik, not because of the player's innate skills. Still, you're fairly solid.

You play an aerial game for the most part which is risky as Zelda since her aerial game isn't good. It paid off for you though you should be cautious about playing in the air against talented players. I did like the double uair you got though. Great airdodge bait on the second one.

Seems like you've got a good idea of Zelda's combo game as well. I saw dtilt>jab>dash attack which is a BnB for us. I think you would've benefited from grabs though. Zelda gets a lot of mileage out of her grab despite it being frame 10 (which is pretty unsafe against a Sheik but you had a few opportunities to get one where you opted for a dsmash instead which netted you less percent than a grab would have). Dthrow>uair is one of our BnB combos that you'll want to get especially against a player that's dash attacking your shield as much as that Sheik was. That makes for easy shield grabs.

Because you were in the air so often, you were landing with aerials a lot which got you punished often because Zelda's landing lag leaves a lot to be desired. It's usually best to either autocancel your aerials, thereby landing with no lag, or save your aerials for just before you land, especially if it's a Lkick since the endlag of the move is so long that adding it to landing lag is enough time for an opponent to fully charge a smash attack. Also, Lkicks are pretty safe on shield now with recent changes to hitstun on moves with hitlag like our Lkicks.

I'd also recommend a safer neutral game for facing better opponents. Stay on the ground and try to space the opponent out with moves like jab and dtilt more rather than taking to the air. You can mix it up and SH nair when you can get away with it but don't rely too much on stuff like that.

I liked your baiting game. Again, the airdodge bait to uair was good. You covered the opponent's landing options with a fsmash which got them offstage for a phantom/din's kill. Just remember that charging phantom against a recovering Sheik is dangerous as evidenced by the second time you did it. Bouncing fish will get her right over phantom for an easy punish. Same goes for characters like ZSS and Pikachu who can just go over it without any threat of repercussions. Against most other characters, this is fine since phantom does such a good job at covering the opponent's getup options now. Just be wary of characters with reflectors like Mario and Fox.

That's all I can think of right now. Good stuff!

 

[Zylach]

Sorry for double post but I'm trying to offer advice and post my own videos at the same time. Please forgive me!

http://www.twitch.tv/eventhorizon/v/16788712

Here's some stream doubles matches of me and a friend of mine. The first two sets of the stream are the only two I'm in. The second set was against WI's #1 player, Akiro who plays Sheik. I've never faced him before so I got decimated.

 

[riku45]

Well, the first thing I'll point out is that the Sheik you faced wasn't amazing. I suspect that was only remotely challenging because Sheik, not because of the player's innate skills. Still, you're fairly solid.

You play an aerial game for the most part which is risky as Zelda since her aerial game isn't good. It paid off for you though you should be cautious about playing in the air against talented players. I did like the double uair you got though. Great airdodge bait on the second one.

Seems like you've got a good idea of Zelda's combo game as well. I saw dtilt>jab>dash attack which is a BnB for us. I think you would've benefited from grabs though. Zelda gets a lot of mileage out of her grab despite it being frame 10 (which is pretty unsafe against a Sheik but you had a few opportunities to get one where you opted for a dsmash instead which netted you less percent than a grab would have). Dthrow>uair is one of our BnB combos that you'll want to get especially against a player that's dash attacking your shield as much as that Sheik was. That makes for easy shield grabs.

Because you were in the air so often, you were landing with aerials a lot which got you punished often because Zelda's landing lag leaves a lot to be desired. It's usually best to either autocancel your aerials, thereby landing with no lag, or save your aerials for just before you land, especially if it's a Lkick since the endlag of the move is so long that adding it to landing lag is enough time for an opponent to fully charge a smash attack. Also, Lkicks are pretty safe on shield now with recent changes to hitstun on moves with hitlag like our Lkicks.

I'd also recommend a safer neutral game for facing better opponents. Stay on the ground and try to space the opponent out with moves like jab and dtilt more rather than taking to the air. You can mix it up and SH nair when you can get away with it but don't rely too much on stuff like that.

I liked your baiting game. Again, the airdodge bait to uair was good. You covered the opponent's landing options with a fsmash which got them offstage for a phantom/din's kill. Just remember that charging phantom against a recovering Sheik is dangerous as evidenced by the second time you did it. Bouncing fish will get her right over phantom for an easy punish. Same goes for characters like ZSS and Pikachu who can just go over it without any threat of repercussions. Against most other characters, this is fine since phantom does such a good job at covering the opponent's getup options now. Just be wary of characters with reflectors like Mario and Fox.

That's all I can think of right now. Good stuff!

Thanks for the advice. I am trying to limit taking to the air. I had a couple of terrible matches against a Robin because I was jumping a lot.

 

[KarmaCastle]

I left it as unlisted, but it should be viewable with that link, aye? Just in case, a regular link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ey6qV9Sc_60

Since deciding to start trying semi competitive local Sm4sh I've been looking for some decent FG opponents to get replays of; this Ike fits that description. Feedback would be much appreciated!

This was our final game, played 10 or so rounds. I decided to record the final match regardless of outcome. We were pretty much dead even in game Wins/losses.

Specifically I'd be really interested in how to deal with SH>Aerial>Jabs because they come out so fast that I need to shield them, and punishing them can be hard ;^;

I was edgeguarding w/phantom because of the Windbox shoving Ike back with Aether, and using Dash attack more than usual because I was trying to be a little more paranoid with spacing so it was the only punish option available to me, usually. Same with the Fsmash spam, since it's one of the only abilities we have to space safely (usually) against Ike.

 

[Zylach]

I left it as unlisted, but it should be viewable with that link, aye? Just in case, a regular link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ey6qV9Sc_60

Since deciding to start trying semi competitive local Sm4sh I've been looking for some decent FG opponents to get replays of; this Ike fits that description. Feedback would be much appreciated!

This was our final game, played 10 or so rounds. I decided to record the final match regardless of outcome. We were pretty much dead even in game Wins/losses.

Specifically I'd be really interested in how to deal with SH>Aerial>Jabs because they come out so fast that I need to shield them, and punishing them can be hard ;^;

I was edgeguarding w/phantom because of the Windbox shoving Ike back with Aether, and using Dash attack more than usual because I was trying to be a little more paranoid with spacing so it was the only punish option available to me, usually. Same with the Fsmash spam, since it's one of the only abilities we have to space safely (usually) against Ike.

Not a bad performance. Looks like you had a really good idea of what to do on the first stock. He figured you out on his second stock. Way to close that out.

I'll say a few of the same things I've said to others here in that you're in the air a lot. Against Ike especially, that's dangerous. All of his aerials have the range and disjoints to beat ours. That Ike should've been fairing and nairing all day but he wasn't. You could tell later on in the match that he started getting that but a little too late as he was juggling you pretty effectively.

3 big things I notice here:

1) You still have to work on your grab game. I believe you grabbed him a total of 3 times and didn't capitalize a whole lot on them. As a Zelda main, you'll be looking for grabs whenever possible. There were a few moments where you could have shielded all of his jab combo or a dash attack or a quick draw and shield grab him for easy damage and you opted to roll away or use other moves that are sub-optimal. Remember that Zelda benefits the most from her dthrow>uair and, especially on a character like Ike, dthrow>nair>Lkick/nair again.

2) You'll have to get used to recovering very low, especially against Ike who really wants to fair you as you recover for early kills. Zelda gains nothing by recovering high against skilled opponents since it's very easy to shield FW snipes like that. You'll wanna go low and recover to the ledge every time as Zelda. I've even gotten in the habit of recovering to the ledge even if I'm sent up since Zelda is so easily juggled. They can't juggle you offstage and most characters have a really tough time catch us as we're recovering to the ledge. Make sure to save your jump until you need it that way you can safely airdodge any attack the opponent throws at you while you're falling and you can use your jump momentum with FW to get a lot of distance allowing you to recover from an even lower spot than the bottom blast zone (even though that doesn't matter because blast zones lol).

3) Try not to force usmash too often. It's easy to punish if it whiffs. I know you're going for the hard read but it, more often than not, put you in a bad situation (several situations that Ike player could've caught you on but didn't). Try and use usmash as a reactionary tool instead of a hard read tool.

You did a good job at edgeguarding. Often, you just needed to hold phantom for a little longer to catch him as his ledge invincibility wore off but you got him as he recovered high with quick draw using nairs. You know how to use her nair effectively. Don't forget though, when you land with the first hit of nair, that you can follow up with utilt or usmash. You hit confirmed once like that and couldn't capitalize on it. Other than that, your nair use is good.

As for your question on aerial>jab conversions by a lot of characters, there's really nothing you can do about it but be patient and stay in shield depending on the character. For instance, Ike can do a nair>jab but, if you shield the nair, you often have enough time to get a shield grab before his jab comes out. Some other characters are trickier like Mario who can control when he hits your shield with his nair and follow up with a jab instantly. In these situations, you can either continue shielding and shield grab if he decides to finish his jab combo or roll back resetting to neutral but also avoiding the possibility of a landing nair>grab attempt. Basically, you just need to get a sense of how long you have to punish aggressive options like that. For a lot of characters, doing that kind of thing is a death sentence like Bowser who has a millenium of landing lag on his aerials allowing you to usmash or elevator him. For characters like Sheik who is just unpunishable, you have to roll away more often and reset to neutral because Sheik can convert a landing aerial to a frame 2 jab into a grab and there's nothing you can do about it except get away.

I hope this helps.

 

[KarmaCastle]

1) You still have to work on your grab game. I believe you grabbed him a total of 3 times and didn't capitalize a whole lot on them. As a Zelda main, you'll be looking for grabs whenever possible.

2) You'll have to get used to recovering very low, especially against Ike who really wants to fair you as you recover for early kills. Zelda gains nothing by recovering high against skilled opponents since it's very easy to shield FW snipes like that. You'll wanna go low and recover to the ledge every time as Zelda.

3) Try not to force usmash too often. It's easy to punish if it whiffs. I know you're going for the hard read but it, more often than not, put you in a bad situation (several situations that Ike player could've caught you on but didn't). Try and use usmash as a reactionary tool instead of a hard read tool.

For the air habits, yeah, I hear and get that a lot. I don't know why I feel like she has such a great aerial game; the twisted mindset is why I've gotten used to using Nair so often haha. It competes with most other aerials. I'd never dream of using it against say Sheik/Yoshi/Mario except to specifically catch them offguard as an aggressive mixup, but I know I really need to keep to the ground and only try for aerials to edgeguard or reach a jump recovery. It worked more for me than it should have against Ike until he adjusted to the second stock (part of the reason I recorded our last game, he actually adapted despite being on FG)

1) This I can't defend or say anything against. I really should be grabbing more; I just get punished so often with a spot dodge that I end up resorting to a dash attack as soon as my opponent punishes me for grabbing more than once. My follow up game was weaker here than usual though; the Dthrow>Uair is hard for me to pull off because of DI. I honestly get Dair>Uair FAR more often; probably as often as I SHOULD be getting Dthrow>Uair. Gonna play a few rounds tonight specifically making it a pint to grab.

2) Recovering low is something I usually aim for but my new Gamecube controller gives me SERIOUS anxiety when I'm below a stage. I've been whiffing and aiming too low the last 2 days and lost a ridiculous number of games because of it, and it's putting me back into a high recovery habit. I've noticed that if I FW and I'm at ledge level or above it, people always anticipate a FW snipe attempt. I was getting way better until I changed controllers ;^; but I need to adjust to the input stick anyways, so I'll put effort into this too.

3) I thought I could clip him in the Usmash as he was jumping above me but it was a miscalculation, and not a good enough confirm, I agree. I have the FG player habit of using abilities as soon as my opponent loses invincibility because I assume they'll panic and roll/jump on stage instead of just reacting to how they ACTUALLY recover, and this helped me realize that. I'd like to practice using it defensively, honestly; when people are coming at me from the air. Buuut it seems to have pretty poor priority so I think learning that should be on the bottom of my priorities haha.

Thank you for all your input! At current I'm trying to focus on FF and SH-ing. If I'm against a less skilled opponent I've been practicing SH>Lightning kicks the last day or so. Now I have some more specific and easily focusable things to practice.

And the throw>nair>Lkick>Nair combo is really really good. I tried going for it here but whiffed; I do know that it's amazing and works on most mid-heavy characters pre-60ish with workable DI.

Actual Question: How guaranteed is Dthrow>Nair/Uair? I can put a few clips to demonstrate what usually happens that way you can see if it's a reactionary thing and me just taking too long or not, but I SWEAR I jump>nair as soon as physically possible after the throw animation and it feels like a 50/50 that my opponent will be able to jump away before I connect the attack. This is a big reason as to why I'm hesitant to follow up out of throws; such as when I threw the Ike and double jumped but didn't actually even try to attack. I just assumed it wouldn't work, and that's a bad thinking habit I wanna fix.

 

[Zylach]

For the air habits, yeah, I hear and get that a lot. I don't know why I feel like she has such a great aerial game; the twisted mindset is why I've gotten used to using Nair so often haha. It competes with most other aerials. I'd never dream of using it against say Sheik/Yoshi/Mario except to specifically catch them offguard as an aggressive mixup, but I know I really need to keep to the ground and only try for aerials to edgeguard or reach a jump recovery. It worked more for me than it should have against Ike until he adjusted to the second stock (part of the reason I recorded our last game, he actually adapted despite being on FG)

1) This I can't defend or say anything against. I really should be grabbing more; I just get punished so often with a spot dodge that I end up resorting to a dash attack as soon as my opponent punishes me for grabbing more than once. My follow up game was weaker here than usual though; the Dthrow>Uair is hard for me to pull off because of DI. I honestly get Dair>Uair FAR more often; probably as often as I SHOULD be getting Dthrow>Uair. Gonna play a few rounds tonight specifically making it a pint to grab.

2) Recovering low is something I usually aim for but my new Gamecube controller gives me SERIOUS anxiety when I'm below a stage. I've been whiffing and aiming too low the last 2 days and lost a ridiculous number of games because of it, and it's putting me back into a high recovery habit. I've noticed that if I FW and I'm at ledge level or above it, people always anticipate a FW snipe attempt. I was getting way better until I changed controllers ;^; but I need to adjust to the input stick anyways, so I'll put effort into this too.

3) I thought I could clip him in the Usmash as he was jumping above me but it was a miscalculation, and not a good enough confirm, I agree. I have the FG player habit of using abilities as soon as my opponent loses invincibility because I assume they'll panic and roll/jump on stage instead of just reacting to how they ACTUALLY recover, and this helped me realize that. I'd like to practice using it defensively, honestly; when people are coming at me from the air. Buuut it seems to have pretty poor priority so I think learning that should be on the bottom of my priorities haha.

Thank you for all your input! At current I'm trying to focus on FF and SH-ing. If I'm against a less skilled opponent I've been practicing SH>Lightning kicks the last day or so. Now I have some more specific and easily focusable things to practice.

And the throw>nair>Lkick>Nair combo is really really good. I tried going for it here but whiffed; I do know that it's amazing and works on most mid-heavy characters pre-60ish with workable DI.

Actual Question: How guaranteed is Dthrow>Nair/Uair? I can put a few clips to demonstrate what usually happens that way you can see if it's a reactionary thing and me just taking too long or not, but I SWEAR I jump>nair as soon as physically possible after the throw animation and it feels like a 50/50 that my opponent will be able to jump away before I connect the attack. This is a big reason as to why I'm hesitant to follow up out of throws; such as when I threw the Ike and double jumped but didn't actually even try to attack. I just assumed it wouldn't work, and that's a bad thinking habit I wanna fix.

I didn't realize you were getting used to a new controller. That makes such a big difference in how well a person plays. Example) I can't use a pro controller at all, ever. I screw up FW and B-reverses, smash attacks vs tilts all day long on that thing. That's completely understandable.

Usmash used to be a godsend anti-air back in brawl but it's lost a lot of its usefulness because of the giant hitbox nerf it got in the transition. Now, its use as an anti-air is far limited. I'd actually recommend utilt as a more reliable anti-air. Yeah, you have to be more precise with your timing but the disjoint is bigger than usmash (It's quite a lot bigger than the animation so it's deceptive). It's much better at covering angles than usmash since usmash only really hits things directly above you. I know the feeling of needing to bait out rolls into an usmash because I still try to do it at tourneys myself. I recommend getting out of that habit as someone that suffers from that habit myself. It's a matter of not forcing things. As soon as you try to force something as Zelda, you get beaten for it. She's a much more passive character unless you wanna play the smash bros equivalent of gambling every single match lol.

As for your actual question: To answer this question, I'm going to assume that your opponent is Mario so I don't have to continuously state that Zelda's combos work different given different character weights, gravity, floatiness, etc. If Mario is at 0% and you dthrow him, buffering either a nair or an uair will land guaranteed. The amount of influence DI has isn't enough to get him out when you've grabbed him at 0%. If he's at 20%, both should still be guaranteed. Once Mario is above about 40%, his DI can really start to affect what will land and how much you need to react to his DI in order to land a followup. Once he's reached 40%, he can DI behind you and get a double jump off in time to avoid your nair.

Nair stops being effective on most characters around the 30-40% range even though you can double jump to get them anyway though you can't follow up if you use your second jump to get the first nair. Uair on the other hand will still land as long as you read the opponent's DI. If you have no rage, dthrow>uair is effectively a 50/50 unless you're quick enough to read and react to the opponent's DI before they're able to airdodge (A double jump will not save them from a buffered uair if you catch their DI properly). Mario only has two options from our dthrow up to around 80% when he'll actually be able to double jump out. He either doesn't DI or he DI's behind you. If he doesn't DI, all you have to do is jump and buffer an uair and it'll land no questions asked. If he DI's behind you, you have to dash backwards quickly, jump, and buffer an uair and it'll land though the timing for this is more strict because of the extra time you take to dash backwards. You basically have to be frame perfect with your dash and jump. On certain stages, you can get a guaranteed uair from dthrow to kill your opponent.

After 100%, you'll probably wanna stop using dthrow because you won't be able to follow up as long as your opponent jumps immediately afterwards. You'll wanna try and get the opponent offstage with a bthrow or fthrow or just opt for a fthrow for the most damage possible from a throw alone. Add rage into the mix and all those percents that your followups stop working go down because rage is bad for combos.

When we stop assuming that we're facing Mario, we can pick someone lighter than him like Rosa and say that all of those combos stop working much earlier and they become even worse with rage. Then, we can pick someone heavier like Bowser and those combos will keep working possibly beyond 100%. Then you've got the oddballs like Fox who has heavy gravity but light weight (He's a featherweight fastfaller) meaning our uair followup is guaranteed for a long time on him since he can't jump out of combos but the uair will kill him early since he's light making him one of the best targets for guaranteed kills on Zelda. We can kill Fox at 60% on stages like Delfino and the first half of Halberd guaranteed from dthrow as long as our uair isn't staled to hell.

I only go for nair followups from dthrow from about 0-30% (20% on light characters) which is when I start going for uairs instead. Usually, your opponent will fall into a pattern of DI from your dthrow so you can effectively react to them once you've used your dthrow a few times and seen whether they switch up their DI or not. Then, you'll wanna consider whether you want to bait airdodges out of them because airdodging the uair is best way to get out. However, when Zelda baits airdodges, she can punish with an elevator, an usmash, a fsmash, another grab, or Lkicks. She gets a lot out of airdodge baits and conditioning your opponent to want to airdodge immediately out of a dthrow is the best way to end their stock early.

 

[onehundredhitz]

Sorry for double post but I'm trying to offer advice and post my own videos at the same time. Please forgive me!

http://www.twitch.tv/eventhorizon/v/16788712

Here's some stream doubles matches of me and a friend of mine. The first two sets of the stream are the only two I'm in. The second set was against WI's #1 player, Akiro who plays Sheik. I've never faced him before so I got decimated.

Where's Zelda? =|

 

[Zylach]

Where's Zelda? =|

I used Zelda. I didn't link the wrong thing did I? Still sends me straight to the right matches for me when I click on it. I'm actually not the first two sets. My first set is the first set on the stream. My second set starts around 43:00. That was my bad.

 

[riku45]

Anyone know how this FW to the stage bounced me out? this should have been an SD...but it lead to a sick KO lol..this happens and I either go under the stage or pushed out like what happened in the video >_<

 

[KarmaCastle]

Anyone know how this FW to the stage bounced me out? this should have been an SD...but it lead to a sick KO lol..this happens and I either go under the stage or pushed out like what happened in the video >_<

Holy s. That was the flashiest KO I've seen.

Assuming nothing got weird with your input stick, if you hit a precise angle ( sort of there the bottom meets the point where it slants up) the game's program will treat the slant like an arch, slinging you without grabbing the ledge. It's really rare because it's such a precise spot to hit, but happens on any slanted stage.

Teleports are weird recovery tools in Smash. Unlike regular recoveries where the character's body will follow ledges and slants, teleports have "invisible trails" depending on your input. Pikachu's quick attack is the best visual representation of how teleports work. This, paired with teleports ALWAYS going their maximum distance, makes them turn out iffy when it comes to arched or slanted stages.

People say I have an odd taste in stages (my favorite is Omega Gamer) but I just tend to pick stages with a wall reaching straight down from the edge. Not only does this make Dair incredibly consistent for KOs (the opponent can only recover high where we can smash/LKick them or from below) that are also much safer (no dair > input left > SD under stage) but you'll never SD with FW unless it's an input error or being flashy.

 

[Zylach]

People say I have an odd taste in stages (my favorite is Omega Gamer) but I just tend to pick stages with a wall reaching straight down from the edge. Not only does this make Dair incredibly consistent for KOs (the opponent can only recover high where we can smash/LKick them or from below) that are also much safer (no dair > input left > SD under stage) but you'll never SD with FW unless it's an input error or being flashy.

Actually, walls make dair spikes worse if your opponent knows how to tech because they can just angle to the wall and tech off of it thereby nullifying your spike. I agree on the possibility of SD'ing though. I usually recover from either 90 or 0 degrees anyway because of the weird things that can happen with FW not properly follow edges and snapping.

 

[onehundredhitz]

Holy s. That was the flashiest KO I've seen.

Assuming nothing got weird with your input stick, if you hit a precise angle ( sort of there the bottom meets the point where it slants up) the game's program will treat the slant like an arch, slinging you without grabbing the ledge. It's really rare because it's such a precise spot to hit, but happens on any slanted stage.

Teleports are weird recovery tools in Smash. Unlike regular recoveries where the character's body will follow ledges and slants, teleports have "invisible trails" depending on your input. Pikachu's quick attack is the best visual representation of how teleports work. This, paired with teleports ALWAYS going their maximum distance, makes them turn out iffy when it comes to arched or slanted stages.

People say I have an odd taste in stages (my favorite is Omega Gamer) but I just tend to pick stages with a wall reaching straight down from the edge. Not only does this make Dair incredibly consistent for KOs (the opponent can only recover high where we can smash/LKick them or from below) that are also much safer (no dair > input left > SD under stage) but you'll never SD with FW unless it's an input error or being flashy.

Actually, walls make dair spikes worse if your opponent knows how to tech because they can just angle to the wall and tech off of it thereby nullifying your spike. I agree on the possibility of SD'ing though. I usually recover from either 90 or 0 degrees anyway because of the weird things that can happen with FW not properly follow edges and snapping.

Man, I've been having the shiitiest of luck with recovering with Zelda sometimes, ESPECIALLY on Dreamland. What I actually like to do is if I'm trying to recover on a "platform" stage versus a "mountain" stage, I like to try and line myself up exactly to the edge and recover straight up from there. More often than not I make the recovery, but sometimes I get janked the **** out of my recovery. It's extremely annoying.


Also, does anybody here have any experience with Anther's Ladder? I've been battling there the past few days instead of regular ol' For Glory, and holy **** are these guys good. Anther's Ladder is basically a godsend for us sick of playing noobs on For Glory. Been having a ton of good matches and been saving replays, but I feel like I've been oversaturating this thread with my content =|

 

[KarmaCastle]

Also, does anybody here have any experience with Anther's Ladder? I've been battling there the past few days instead of regular ol' For Glory, and holy **** are these guys good. Anther's Ladder is basically a godsend for us sick of playing noobs on For Glory. Been having a ton of good matches and been saving replays, but I feel like I've been oversaturating this thread with my content =|

I felt the same way (I wanted to post another video today) but then realized who cares. This thread is for video critique and feedback. Don't feel like (we) are oversaturating the thread because (we) actually use it for critique.

I'm not sure about your circumstance, but for me I just moved to a new state and started really getting into sm4sh so online feedback from top performing players like Zylach is one of the only ways I can get feedback or critique on things I don't notice. That or playing some gorls from the social.

So don't worry about it!

Also I'm interested in Anther's Ladder but I'm just above FG tier. I'm paranoid I'm going to get bodied to shame. Is it really such a massive difference? Like between a really decent FG player or someone from Anther's. Not just some random roll spamming FG-er.

Lol. I've been typing Aether with Ike players so much it autocorrected from Anther.

 

[onehundredhitz]

I felt the same way (I wanted to post another video today) but then realized who cares. This video is for video critique and feedback. Don't feel like (we) are oversaturating the thread because (we) actually use it for critique.

I'm not sure about your circumstance, but for me I just moved to a new state and started really getting into sm4sh so online feedback from top performing players like Zylach is one of the only ways I can get feedback or critique on things I don't notice. That or playing some gorls from the social.

So don't worry about it!

Also I'm interested in Aether's Ladder but I'm just above FG tier. I'm paranoid I'm going to get bodied to shame. Is it really such a massive difference? Like between a really decent FG player or someone from Aether's. Not just some random roll spamming FG-er.

It's a HUGE difference. I've been getting smacked on the regular there in ranked matches. Everyone is actually good, so it makes you finally use your brain when fighting. I can most definitely say that I've gone up a level or two ever since getting in to it. And the chatroom feature is nice so you can actually talk to your opponent (or the room in general) and exchange tips and stuff. It's actually a really nice community.

 

[KarmaCastle]

It's a HUGE difference. I've been getting smacked on the regular there in ranked matches. Everyone is actually good, so it makes you finally use your brain when fighting. I can most definitely say that I've gone up a level or two ever since getting in to it. And the chatroom feature is nice so you can actually talk to your opponent (or the room in general) and exchange tips and stuff. It's actually a really nice community.

I'm planning on going to my weeklies whenever I can now, so I think I'm going to actually hit it up tomorrow. Thank you for the inspiration!! Gotta learn my new controller too, this'll be a huge difference. I've been lucky and gotten some really good opponents on FG that stick around the last few days, but Anther's sounds much better.

Also if you do have some videos post them! It's not like you're spamming a new video every hour. This thread just moves a bit more slow than the others, so even if you post a new video every other day it just looks like a bit much. Really, don't worry about it. And double posting exceptions can be made. If it's been a while and nobody else has posted and you're going to post a new video or bracket link (this happens often in the "Winning with Sass tournaments" thread) then you shouldn't be reprimanded for the post.

Or I guess you could always edit your last message and slip the video in haha.

But post away! Fellow Zelda mains can still provide insight your opponents can't.

 

[onehundredhitz]

I'm planning on going to my weeklies whenever I can now, so I think I'm going to actually hit it up tomorrow. Thank you for the inspiration!! Gotta learn my new controller too, this'll be a huge difference. I've been lucky and gotten some really good opponents on FG that stick around the last few days, but Anther's sounds much better.

Also if you do have some videos post them! It's not like you're spamming a new video every hour. This thread just moves a bit more slow than the others, so even if you post a new video every other day it just looks like a bit much. Really, don't worry about it. And double posting exceptions can be made. If it's been a while and nobody else has posted and you're going to post a new video or bracket link (this happens often in the "Winning with Sass tournaments" thread) then you shouldn't be reprimanded for the post.

Or I guess you could always edit your last message and slip the video in haha.

But post away! Fellow Zelda mains can still provide insight your opponents can't.

Which reminds me, let me know when you (Or anyone else) make it to Anther's. There's a nice little room I've been invited to for Zelda mains only. And those gorls are good as well.

I've actually been getting some nice compliments on my Zelda across the Ladder, even when I'm losing matches, so it's definitely uplifting and shows that I'm growing. Another thing I like about AL, aside from the chat room is that it has its own ranking system, ranging from Bronze to Gold (May be higher ranks, but I haven't seen them), options to do Best Out of 3 matches, or 5, Friendlies (Unranked), character select and stage strikings. Only thing I don't like about it, is the boring ass legal stages they have for the 3DS, which are Dreamland, Arena Ferox, Battlefield, Final Destination, Prism Tower, and Yoshi's Island. All regular versions. If I'm bored of the stages I usually tell my opponent that I'm doing random omega and they're fine with it for the most part. But still.

Definitely check it out if you can. It's literally the next best thing you can do to level up your game, aside from going to tourneys or going in your local scene.

And I'll post some replays tomorrow. Right now I'm at work, and I don't have my DS on me =|

 

[KarmaCastle]

Here we are.

I've toned down my air game (still got a bad jump habit) and worked a lot on my grabs.

I really wanted to upload like the 10 replays I got with this link (he was really impressive) but most of them were longer than 3 minutes :[

 

[Zylach]

Here we are.

I've toned down my air game (still got a bad jump habit) and worked a lot on my grabs.

I really wanted to upload like the 10 replays I got with this link (he was really impressive) but most of them were longer than 3 minutes :[

Really unfortunate that Link SD'ed that first stock. You do still have a jumping habit but you're going for safer options from jumps which is good. Nair to cover yourself and surprise the opponent, empty hop to force a reaction. Your offstage game has gotten better as well. Especially against Link, Zelda's offstage game can turn the tides of a match.

3 Things I really liked: Your ledge game has gotten better. I saw you punish him with a deliberate ledge getup. I also like the uair to keep him from feeling safe right on the ledge. Furthermore, you use dtilt a lot more effectively. Dtilt to grab is a great combo to use often.

Some things to continue working on: You use fsmash a lot as a landing trap which isn't always the best option. A few times, you charged fsmash when Link still had his second jump so he just went right over you. You have to keep track of the opponent's options when they're in the air. Do they still have their second jump? Do they have a displacement attack like ZSS or Sheik? Do they have projectiles they'll throw at me while I'm charging this landing trap? This is more a question of opimizing your landing traps. Fsmash is a good landing trap option but you have to use it a little more consciously against your opponent. Also, usmash can work just as well especially because it hits higher and can hit the opponent if they're looking to go behind you expecting fsmash.

You still have to work a bit on grab followups. You have to be aware of the opponent's percent, how possible it is for them to get out of your grab, and remember to pummel when you can so you can get that extra 3%. That can make the difference. Remember to use fthrow and bthrow only to get the opponent offstage, your damage throws are uthrow and dthrow.

Good progression so far. Great job.

 

[KarmaCastle]

Ayy, the backthrow was a misinput. Meant to forward throw ><

I saved a ton of our games but sadly almost all of them are 4+ minutes long. Most of them were really close/tight games, one of the best Links I fought. The only reason this was was shot was because of his SD :\. I wanted to show one where we were both around 100 before I ended up losing, but that one nearly timed out.

I'll focus on not smashing and hoping the opponent will tumble into it; especially against better opponents like him, who won't fall for the same thing twice.

Thanks for the input!

 

[Zylach]

Ayy, the backthrow was a misinput. Meant to forward throw ><

I saved a ton of our games but sadly almost all of them are 4+ minutes long. Most of them were really close/tight games, one of the best Links I fought. The only reason this was was shot was because of his SD :\. I wanted to show one where we were both around 100 before I ended up losing, but that one nearly timed out.

I'll focus on not smashing and hoping the opponent will tumble into it; especially against better opponents like him, who won't fall for the same thing twice.

Thanks for the input!

No accounting for misinputs lol.

I still don't understand the whole 3 minute cap for uploading replays. It's rather silly.

 

[riku45]

I managed to upload a 3:25 second video today. The cap seems to be 3 minute 30 seconds sometimes...I tried uploading a 3 minute 12 second video the other day and it said it was too long :S

Here is the video. I am not sure if I am playing this match up right. I won but I am not convinced >_<

 

[Jaguar360]

Quick For Glory match I had two nights ago.

Bonus video:

Was testing Zelda's 3313 custom set. Din's Blaze and Phantom Strike are both super legit. I have some replays stored of me using the newly buffed Naryu's Passion to good use, so I'll upload those later.

 

[Zylach]

I managed to upload a 3:25 second video today. The cap seems to be 3 minute 30 seconds sometimes...I tried uploading a 3 minute 12 second video the other day and it said it was too long :S

Here is the video. I am not sure if I am playing this match up right. I won but I am not convinced >_<

You were playing the MU fairly well. Some missed conversions and he baited Nayru's out of you a few times but it was fairly solid. One thing about the MU I'll recommend though: Do not use Din's in this MU. Any smart Samus will take full advantage of your vulnerability during Din's. The Samus wasn't utilizing her zair which is Samus' main tool against Zelda. If you face better Samus' you'll have to play very defensively and make smart use of your shield. Samus forces us to approach and we have to be smart about doing that with good shields.

 

[SoulKinetix]

Did I do good

 

[Zylach]

Did I do good

I'm fairly impressed by this performance. That Diddy wasn't too bad and it was clear that he was picking up on how you were playing after he lost his first stock but you brought it back anyway. Looks like you've got a good sense of spacing (foxtrotting just out of range of Diddy's fsmash for instance) but still need a bit of practice on optimizing your punishes and combos on Zelda.

First of all, I like how you stay mobile and keep out of Diddy's banana shenanigans (Bananigans?) by rolling as he goes for a grab or jab combo which is the only thing I've ever found to be effective in those situations as Zelda. You make appropriate use of Zelda's nair and dair to cover yourself when you need to reposition as well.

I also like your audacity. By that I mean, you effectively challenged a few of Diddy's attacks that I didn't even think Zelda could challenge like monkey flip. That goes hand-in-hand with proper spacing and pleasantly surprised me.

Thing #1 that I'd suggest is optimizing your punish game. Since Zelda is a punish heavy character, you need to get as much out of punishes as possible. While you do get a lot of the punishes you had to get, you didn't always use the absolute best option possible. There were a few instances where Diddy would place his banana between himself and you and charge a dsmash which is where you want to use a dash attack to both grab the banana and also get a free 12% on him. There was one instance near the end of the match where he just charged his dsmash apparently expecting you to roll into it without any banana or anything to cover him. That situation was ideal for a run-up elevator since you were about 130% and he was around 70%, that absolutely would've killed him and ended it a lot earlier. Remember to use running usmash as well when the opponent is above 100% for an easy kill.

Thing #2 that I'd suggest is practicing Zelda's known combos a little more (Again, this is just a question of optimizing). I saw you use dtilt>jab but didn't follow up from the jab. Remember that dash attack is a guaranteed followup from jab so you can dtilt>jab>dash attack at low-mid percents on most characters except hyper-floaties like Peach and Rosa. Zelda's dthrow is her combo throw that combos into nair at low percents and uair at mid-high percents. Looks like you know this but have to work on perfectly timing uair to get the guaranteed hit from dthrow on an opponent that knows how to DI (It is still guaranteed to my knowledge even if they DI away, you just have to be very precise with your timing).

One last thing is to limit your use of Nayru's Love. I know it's tempting to throw it out hoping to reflect Diddy's banana but Zelda doesn't benefit from doing this and baiting Nayru's Love is something Diddy wants to do often for easy banana>grabs. Just shield the banana and get away from the followup. NL is too risky to throw out that often especially in this MU.

Very good stuff. Would watch again.

 

[A17]

Some spectacular matches I see in this thread. Mine aren't up to snuff, but I am a slow learner in fighting games.

Match1: I don't have much to ask for in regards to the green Metaknight.

What I aim to do with progress videos to keep track of where I've been doing best on a periodic basis, but that might not seem productive as it does not address any shortcomings or obstacles I haven't overcome during that time. I will have to consider recording certain losses for future reference.

 

[Ffamran]

11 matches of Zelda vs. Ike were uploaded on terminalkai: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITx63mU8HkE. Rare MU from what I remember seeing and even rarer is Zelda on terminalkai. Different players, so don't critique them as if they were all only 2 players.

 

[Zylach]

11 matches of Zelda vs. Ike were uploaded on terminalkai: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITx63mU8HkE. Rare MU from what I remember seeing and even rarer is Zelda on terminalkai. Different players, so don't critique them as if they were all only 2 players.

Looked less like Zelda vs. Ike most of the time and more Ike destroying Zelda. No gimps on Ike unfortunately.

 

[| Kailex |]

What do you guys think of this zelda

 

[Zylach]

What do you guys think of this zelda

That was a good set. You performed well against the oppressive force that is Sheik. I will say that that Sheik's DI was not good as he rarely got out of your dthrow combos which are a lot easier to avoid with proper DI. You were on point with your Lkicks. I don't see that many Lkicks in one set often lol. Just be careful about landing with airdodges and NL as it got you punished several times though I like the SHAD>nair, SHAD>bair, and SHAD>NL. They offer some fun mindgames.

 

[| Kailex |]

That aint me tho

 

[Zylach]

That aint me tho

I have been tricked! lol

 

[| Kailex |]

He's one of the better players in the middle east, even though our level isnt that high, a dedicated zelda main in all smash games.

 

[Strong-Arm]

Not much. Did this this morning before school. But hey its something.

 

[FP!]

So besides the terrible SD game 1 and the terrible choices for trying to get back on stage game 2, what do you all think?

Me(Oblivion) vs LOE1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpFY7ZmK3E0