Huge Johnz 2: Justice shall be served April 28th Portage IN venue confirmed

[Overswarm]

Specific matchups are ridiculous to bring into this argument.

Even those involving chain-throws. Why?

Fox can chain grab Fox on that stage.
It doesn't unbalance the matchup, since Fox will always be equal to Fox.

Or would you change your character?

Well there certainly isn't a STAGE that kills a character. Matchups have to be considered, don't you think?

Iggy banned Green Greens against me because he didn't want to deal with Fox's lasers on that stage. It wouldn't have turned out that way had Iggy seen me playing, say, jigglypuff.

 

[Jazzness]

Overswarm,

Having bombs, apples, and blocks fall from a tree that blows wind and shakes the camera everywhere is a little different than considering the strategy of IC's Vs Fox on FD.

How are clap-traps, banzai bills, rising lava, and fast-moving cars relevent to character matchups? They're just stage hazards that lead me to believe there ARE stages that kill characters, in contradiction to your statement.

 

[Overswarm]

Overswarm,

Having bombs, apples, and blocks fall from a tree that blows wind and shakes the camera everywhere is a little different than considering the strategy of IC's Vs Fox on FD.

How are clap-traps, banzai bills, rising lava, and fast-moving cars relevent to character matchups? They're just stage hazards that lead me to believe there ARE stages that kill characters, in contradiction to your statement.

That's like saying highways should be gotten rid of because they are dangerous because people can walk on them and be hit by cars.

The solution is not to get rid of highways. The solution is to educate people. Ya know, tell them NOT to run in traffic?

Apples that fall from a tree are signaled by the camera moving (which I have never seen as a complaint by anyone), and simply shielding or moving prevents them from hitting you at all. About one in 3 apples are explosive (so you can expect 1 out of 3 apples, or 2 out of 5, on average to explode), but they explode when they hit the ground which isn't a big deal.

Bombs and blocks fall in two places. They aren't random, they have set times they fall, and they have a variable speed that is determined by how many blocks are currently on the stage.

The wind isn't even a large issue, but even that is signaled.

You see Mute City's cars coming, you move out of the way.

Rising lava (stage not banned, even) is seen coming from a mlie away.

Klap Traps and Banzai bills only come to the same areas, and you can see them coming every time.



If you're saying that the stage doing ANYTHING to alter a matchup should be banned, go ahead and add DK64, DL64, Brinstar, Mute City, Yoshi's Story, and Pokemon stadium to the list.

Those stage affects don't do anything unless the person is completely oblivious to them.

You're splitting hairs.


edit:

auto-advantage or disadvantage to a particular character.

Ice Climbers on Final Destination. Instant advantage.

Marth on Battlefield or Yoshi's story. Instant advantage.

Both are natural. Doesn't even matter what the opposing characters are.

 

[Undefined]

I obviously disagree. Wobbles or not, Fox gets chain-thrown to death by ICs on FD. I literally HAVE to change characters if I'm to stand a chance there. Should FD then be banned?

Of course not. I should man up and change characters. Why waste time whining?

wrong agian, squared. cunning doesnt need to change characters? isn't that something.........maybe because he knows how to fight against ic. oh and btw you can escape ic chaingrabs, even if fox.


oh and to overswarm:

in many gay stages, you cannot predict when apples, lava, or falling bombs come.

when your brother bthrew me into the blocks, he had NO IDEA bomb was gonna fall, but it did at least 2 times, costing me at least 2 stock.

when i jumped up to do a fair against him, as well, HOORAY APPLES RANDOMLY APPEARED. i got knocked away.

klap traps you cant see coming at times. ive seen one just pop up out of nowhere and **** someone.

lava you can see coming, but it still interrupts what you were doing, whereas if it hadn't had come, you wouldnt need to stop your combo. same with cars on mute. same with lasers on corneria.



a stage is like a function:

if you do one thing and it has one result. its fine.
if you do one thing, and there is more than one possible result DUE TO THES TAGE, then it is broken.

 

[Jazzness]

That's like saying highways should be gotten rid of because they are dangerous because people can walk on them and be hit by cars.

The solution is not to get rid of highways. The solution is to educate people. Ya know, tell them NOT to run in traffic?

A bully picks a fight with you and says, "Meet me at the playground after lunch,"
to which you instantly reply, "No. Meet me in the Mine-field at the Army Base."

Does it matter if you both have the positions of the mines memorized?

No, because you know that random unexpected things do happen in fights, and you'd rather fall and hit a tube-slide than a land mine.

 

[DrewB008]

overswarm, this is a competition, not just playing the game. you dont play sports on highways, you play it on a rectangular field with no outside interference except for the weather.

also, you always say IC are really good on FD, what is so good about them there? I played meeps climbers this past weekend and won pretty solidly on FD, he did better everywhere else. Their chaingrab doesn't send people up in the air, so thats unaffected. sure they can move around well, but they can launch ice blocks off of platforms and stuff on other levels. And yoshis story and battlefield are probably better for ganon against marth than marth against ganon.

 

[Undefined]

thats also true,

in all other competitively played games the point of the competition is to see who has the most skill. in most cases that means whoever wins, thus the term "whatever wins". however in smash, we have stupid stages that inhibit actual competitive play. how? id like to see the # of times a fox does a sick waveshine combo on a neut 6 level vs how many times a fox does a sick waveshine combo on pokefloats. really these stages just inhibit fighting, aka skill, and break the game down (literally BREAK) into 1-hit fights or camping.

its just inhibiting what makes this game so great, the deep, competitive, player vs player interaction.

 

[AOB]

wrong agian, squared. cunning doesnt need to change characters? isn't that something.........maybe because he knows how to fight against ic. oh and btw you can escape ic chaingrabs, even if fox.

I bet for every bad-stage-matchup you want to ban, there is someone who can get around it. Where exactly are you drawing the line?

 

[Undefined]

I bet for every bad-stage-matchup you want to ban, there is someone who can get around it. Where exactly are you drawing the line?

name anyone in the midwest who has gotten aroudn vidjo's camping on corneria. done.

 

[that 1 guy]

See the problem is a difference of perspective. Some people see stages as a way to enhance there gameplay while others see it as a hindrance. Also I think overall marth gains an advantage on battlefield. Sure there are a few things he loses, but I think he gains much more. A tipper is way more devastating than a chain throw in my opinion.

 

[AS Money]

you also have to remember cunning is very used to playing IC's. Senior Trail practice makes anyone better vs IC's. exept dope he just sucks vs IC's.

 

[Undefined]

i take anyone and everyone to battlefield with shiek. including marth who can tipper me there. why? i can get out of his utilt combos easier whereas on fd its alot harder. oh nad tippers are relatively easy to avoid when ur on a platform. its so predictable its ridiculous.

 

[Undefined]

you also have to remember cunning is very used to playing IC's. Senior Trail practice makes anyone better vs IC's. exept dope he just sucks vs IC's.

doesnt matter, the matchup is still very possible. using amount of practice in the matchup as a john is awful. but no matter how much you practice say captain falcon vs fox on green greens or corneria, it really doesn't matter.

also, fox CAN compete against ic. you jsut have to play differently. cunning knows how to do this. no matter how hard you try to change your playstyle against a camping fox on corneria, you will always have a severe disadvantage.

 

[AOB]

name anyone in the midwest who has gotten aroudn vidjo's camping on corneria. done.

Even if this is a valid point and no one has ever gotten around it, then are you going to look at each level on a case-by-case basis like this? "FD is okay because Trail's combos can be dealt with, but Corneria is not because Vidjo's camping can't?" Seems arbitrary to me.

 

[Tapion013]

name anyone in the midwest who has gotten aroudn vidjo's camping on corneria. done.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOcphYbh0Jo

As much as you want to hate it, 5150, camping is a strategy that requires skill. There are good campers, and there are very very bad campers. Now it really is starting to seem like a personal thing, and that you really do just hate camping...

 

[saZmus]

I like Kirby.

 

[kirkq]

vidjo = teh lame sandbagness

those forward smash reads near the end were hawt

 

[mathos]

Camping is skillful, however when camping becomes unskillful (ie stage bias) then is the only time is something should be done.

 

[BIG C]

i actually kind of agree with mathos. bcuz u can camp on any stage ask mathos but when u have to pick a stage to camp is when it's bad.

 

[Mars-]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOcphYbh0Jo

As much as you want to hate it, 5150, camping is a strategy that requires skill. There are good campers, and there are very very bad campers. Now it really is starting to seem like a personal thing, and that you really do just hate camping...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beptgC5_pZc
I would also like to add one of my favorites. Camping does take a bit of skill and so does stopping it. It might be easy to learn the stages but to learn how to fight around camping takes much more skill.

You can notice how he pretty much mind games vidjo when he starts to camp, like charging up a shot, catching his turnups. He is pretty much saying, you can camp, I'll buff up even more. Also completely going offensive doesn't work against campers because that is what they want. Instead you have to go for a, get the strong hits at the right time strategy. Darkrain did the same thing in his match.

 

[Overswarm]

oh and to overswarm:

in many gay stages, you cannot predict when apples, lava, or falling bombs come.

when your brother bthrew me into the blocks, he had NO IDEA bomb was gonna fall, but it did at least 2 times, costing me at least 2 stock.

when i jumped up to do a fair against him, as well, HOORAY APPLES RANDOMLY APPEARED. i got knocked away.

I'm going to try to attempt to not dwell on the fact that you use my brother, who doesn't wavedash or l-cancel, was doing well against you through sheer wit, but I have to ask you....

If he is going to throw you with sheik on Final Destination, what throw does a player normally use? Occasionally there is an up-throw, but 90% of the time it is down-throw, correct?

So, if my brother is using Sheik's backthrow, he has to have a reason, right? If he is throwing you towards the blocks, that means he isn't aiming for the edge, or trying to combo you. He has to have SOME reason to back-throw you...

Oh wait. Foresight. Just because you don't see a bomb there or see a bomb coming doesn't mean that a bomb won't come. You don't use Luigi's over-b expecting a misfire every time, but you hope like hell for one.

My little brother is no stranger to Green Greens. He knows that back-throwing into the blocks is almost always a good idea, especially if you can trap them under the blocks.

I believe he got second in his pool, and his character choice is sheik and only sheik (he attempts Ganon and Jiggs, but they are still green), AND he doesn't l-cancel or wavedash (he started practicing l-canceling before the tournament). He did well through brains alone, by doing things like throwing you into the bomb-drop zone.

Also, you say you tried to jump and fair, but apples randomly appeared. Green Greens is a stage I excel at, and not once have I ever seen apples appear "randomly" (you can guess within a 20 second window of when they're going to come every time if you pay attention), nor have they ever moved so fast that you couldn't say "Oh, apples".

Seems like someone is just spouting off some angry Johns.


And to tell me that you can't predict when apples, lava, cars, blocks, or bombs come is ridiculous. There are signs for -everything-, and when the signs aren't there, there is a timer that shows you when it is most likely to happen every match.

Hell, if you watch the Chozo in the background on Brinstar, he helps to tell you waht the lava is doing.

If you watch the pakederm in Yoshi's story (the elephant thing holding the sign) on Yoshi's Story, he tells you where the cloud is (for the first half of the match, he is slightly desynched).

You're just proving to me that you haven't taken the time to learn these stages.

klap traps you cant see coming at times. ive seen one just pop up out of nowhere and **** someone.

Cool story, except it isn't true. In Jungle Japes the klap trap appears in the same starting points every time. The only time you can't see them is if the camera isn't there, and even then you know that not only is there a ton of rushing water there, but there is also the possibility of klap traps appearing.

Kongo Jungle is even easier to see the klap trap coming.

lava you can see coming, but it still interrupts what you were doing, whereas if it hadn't had come, you wouldnt need to stop your combo. same with cars on mute. same with lasers on corneria.

So?

doesnt matter, the matchup is still very possible. using amount of practice in the matchup as a john is awful. but no matter how much you practice say captain falcon vs fox on green greens or corneria, it really doesn't matter.

Kel and Husband both play Marth. Kel and Husband have both played me on Green Greens. Kel used to abhore Green Greens, and it was the easiest thing in the world to beat him there. Just follow the same patterns and I would win. Kel one day realized "Oh, I have to do something different", and now doesn't switch from Marth on Green Greens and does very well on the stage.

Husband somewhere along the line figured the stage out, and three stocked me there.

Darkrain has beaten my Fox on Green Greens as well. I've done well there, even had a stock advantage with some % on him, but he always pulls through because he's the better smasher.


The stage is another level to the game, and is something that isn't going to go away anytime soon. This isn't basketball, this is Smash. We don't play every match on FD, and we don't only play Dittos. We learn all matchups, we don't ban characters just because they are good, and we don't ban stages just because they aren't flat with three platforms.

also, fox CAN compete against ic. you jsut have to play differently. cunning knows how to do this. no matter how hard you try to change your playstyle against a camping fox on corneria, you will always have a severe disadvantage.

also, Captain Falcon CAN compete against Fox on Green Greens. you jsut have to play differently. Darkrain knows how to do this.

no matter how hard you try to change your playstyle against a camping fox on corneria, you will always have a severe disadvantage.

1. This isn't true

2. The disadvantage isn't even close to severe

3. You're supposed to be at a disadvantage when counterpicked. We aren't picking character color, this isn't just preference.

overswarm, this is a competition, not just playing the game. you dont play sports on highways, you play it on a rectangular field with no outside interference except for the weather.

You added the weather. ****.

Anyways, this is a competition but our entire tournament style has been based around counterpicking for a long, long time. That's how smash is evolved.

I don't think the people advocating for the removal of all these stages really understand the impact that it is going to have on character choice.

Can you imagine how safe you'd feel if you were Sheik, Peach, Marth, or the Ice Climbers? No one can counterpick you anymore, anywhere, ever. At all. It can't be done because all the stages that worked so well against you before have been banned.

Instead of limiting the game, we've allowed the game to naturally expand as far as it could, and only trimmed the edges when certain stages (like Onett or Mushroom Kingdom II) were too much to bear.

These other stages were not banned immediately, but slowly, after long periods of observation. How many tournaments had Onett as a primary counterpick before it was banned?

We saw several people counterpick on this stage with Fox (and while we did not see Samus there, she is indeed borderline broken on that stage), repeatedly, and there was just too much of an uphill battle on a consistent basis that was almost completely independent of the players skill.

I'm not saying that some stages shouldn't be banned eventually. If they show that they should be banned, they should be banned. But, if you are merely hypothesizing that they should be banned, you're taking a large step in the wrong direction, ESPECIALLY right before Brawl comes out.

This paranoid witch hunt of "imbalance" needs to be pulled out by the root ASAP, and a dedicated system for banning stages needs to be put in place. Anyone that has any sense at all wouldn't ban Mute City, and anyone with any sense at all would ban Brinstar Depths. What is the difference? Why?

What you are doing is chaotic and dangerous, and is fueled by nothing other than stereotypes (not all the midwest camps, not all campers are bad), vague and flimsy arguments (if we take away the ability to camp, we'll suddenly get better), and personal bias (let's ban all these stages that aren't flat with three platforms.... except mute city and brinstar).

i actually kind of agree with mathos. bcuz u can camp on any stage ask mathos but when u have to pick a stage to camp is when it's bad.

What do you mean? Some stages are obviously more inclined to camping than others, just like some stages are obviously more inclined for chain grabbing, but why is it bad to pick something that gives you an advantage?

Shouldn't Fox players be PUSHING for all Midwest Foxes to learn to laser camp when it is worth their while?

I find it odd that Marth players, when asked how to deal with space animals, all start off by telling the new Marth players about the chain grab, as it is a natural advantage Marth has....

But Fox and Falco players seem to shun the idea of running away and lasering characters like Donkey Kong (I sat next to DA_Dave and Bum at MLG New York. DA Dave won because he ran away and blastered on Corneria, and advanced to the pro bracket) or Ganondorf (hence why Captain Awesome has such a hard time on some stages).

Fox's natural speed helps him, and the larger the stage the better the advantage.

Why is this so frowned upon, when Marth or Sheik chain throwing is grudgingly accepted (while it isn't the fast "in your face" action that nub smashers crave, it is effective yet not imbalanced) I wonder?

 

[BIG C]

i already posted my justification for banning the stages and there is no argument that can change it. or prove it wrong sure, you can say that they are not random occuring things that they actually happen at specific times but, in order to know you would have to study the stages very habitually. to me and most people I know this game is not worht studying to know what the stages do and when.

I mean I'm sure there are a select few that can tell me the timing for everything on the stages but, to me there is no point in knowing because I won't remember mid match oh the apples are gonna fall in 10 seconds. To me and probably a majority of the smash community the things that take place on the stages are random.

I happen to play peach and I am still considering banning mute because of cars you might be able to see the cars coming but in the middle of a fight you get frooooed unless you are peach in case you can just float out of the way of the cars. I also banned Green Greens and PPC I happen to like both stages and think they are fun but, I do not think they should be a stage in a tourny too much of an advantage to fox and the banzai bills and buttons are too much for that to be a legal stage. GG is another advantageous to fox stage and there are also bomb bricks and apples that screw up the camera.

I can't understand why anyone would think this is just a personal opinion thing for me. I know many people who agree with these banned stages. If it were a personal thing for me RC and PF would be the first things banned because anyone who knows me knows I HATE those stages. I have however, been thouroughly convinced over and over again that those stages are fair for counterpick even though the space animals have quite the advantage there. Also, if it were purely about camping those would be banned because I believe that those are two of the most campable stages in the game.

In conclusion there is a good justification for the banning of the stages so stop trying to argue it's all about camping. To Rick it might be to me the overall tourny host it is not. Everyone knows I hate camping as a strat but, as i stated PF and RC would definitely be banned if it were really about camping to me. One more thing these stages are being banned for the same reasons flat zone and icicle mountain were banned. flat zone because of tools interrupting the fight (which is another reason mute might get banned) and Icicle Mountain because of the unpredictable movement of the stage i.e random.

Also, the arguement ends here. you are not convincing me to change the stages ihave already gotten confirmation that i can use my stagelist is this is a circuit event. if you dont like it dont come and miss out on your circuit points. So stop arguing about MY stagelist. It has been justified and no one even tried to attack my justification.


The justice has been distributed.

 

[Zjiin]

I can't wait until brawl, since they already announced that there will be an option to turn off stage events. (i.e cars in onett, planes on corneria, etc.) That out to be a fun tournament legal discussion.

All being said, i think the best thing we've heard so far is, if you don't like the rules, don't go to the tourney. Period. It's kind of a cop-out but most people will never see eye to eye on this, and those who want their super awesome camping stages on, are going to see that their event attendance is a little low.

Let's drop all this, and think back to a time when this thread was about Huge Johnz 2.

 

[Tapion013]

Why is this so frowned upon, when Marth or Sheik chain throwing is grudgingly accepted (while it isn't the fast "in your face" action that nub smashers crave, it is effective yet not imbalanced) I wonder?

Because it's cheap... that's the only reason I can think of.

I'm 50/50 on your side overswarm. I'm with you on the fact I don't think camping is unfair, or should even be frowned upon. You gave some good analogies this time that actually helped prove your point, and I agree with them.

I no longer think that most of the arguments here were for the best interest of the midwest, but for the best interest of entertainment for one, maybe a couple people, but I still stand by the fact that I think that if our players could get better at neutral stages, we would be a much scarier region... Forward just came to two of our tourneys and owned everything in singles... Talk about a slap to our faces...

 

[Overswarm]

i already posted my justification for banning the stages and there is no argument that can change it. or prove it wrong sure, you can say that they are not random occuring things that they actually happen at specific times but, in order to know you would have to study the stages very habitually. to me and most people I know this game is not worht studying to know what the stages do and when.

You are the pinnacle of competitiveness. Play until it gets too confusing.

"But I don't WANT to learn to wavedash, that isn't the smash I love! Where has the smash I love gone?!"

I mean I'm sure there are a select few that can tell me the timing for everything on the stages but, to me there is no point in knowing because I won't remember mid match oh the apples are gonna fall in 10 seconds. To me and probably a majority of the smash community the things that take place on the stages are random.

Most people didn't know how fast Marth's d-tilt was due to IASA frames until it became a popular way to edgeguard. Most didn't know how fast the shine was. Most didn't know the ratios for turnips.

They learned because it was useful. If you can't remember mid-match something that is drastically important (important enough to warrant a banning of a stage, no less), maybe, ya know, you just aren't trying very hard?

I happen to play peach and I am still considering banning mute because of cars you might be able to see the cars coming but in the middle of a fight you get frooooed unless you are peach in case you can just float out of the way of the cars.

Could you explain why it is under consideration while other stages that have less obtrusive things happen are automatically banned?

I also banned Green Greens and PPC I happen to like both stages and think they are fun but, I do not think they should be a stage in a tourny too much of an advantage to fox and the banzai bills and buttons are too much for that to be a legal stage. GG is another advantageous to fox stage and there are also bomb bricks and apples that screw up the camera.

Green Greens is advantageous to MANY characters. It is just naturally disadvantageous to aggressive, run all around players. I can't really think of a single Fox player other than me that routinely picks this stage..... Do I have something to do with this sir?

Princess Peach's castle I agree for the ban for a couple of reasons, the banzai bills and the switches being neither of them.

For one, there is a large, large wall right down the middle.

This allows people to tech off of said wall easily at all times during the match, so, like Hyrule Temple or Onett, vertical killers reign supreme.

Second of all, there is a large, large wall right down the middle.

This allows to completely obliterate any chances of advancement for either party when two people are on opposite sides. While the bullet bill forces one to move (at least enough to where the other can move position), it is much too slow to rely on to get things moving.

If, say, a herd of yoshi's ran up one side of the castle and slammed into the center structure every 30-45 seconds, I'd be fine with it.

For singles it isn't too big of a deal, but is still a stage where stalemates aren't created, but are inevitable. Doubles is just disaster.

The only redeeming feature this map has is when the button is pressed, allowing for the "item block" to appear at the top, which allows a player to advance.

I can't understand why anyone would think this is just a personal opinion thing for me.

Probably because you're the tournament host, have complete power, and have banned several stages with your reasoning being "Fox is too good", but have left in all of Peach's counter pick stages saying "they aren't that bad". Maybe.

I know many people who agree with these banned stages.

I know many people who don't.

If it were a personal thing for me RC and PF would be the first things banned because anyone who knows me knows I HATE those stages. I have however, been thouroughly convinced over and over again that those stages are fair for counterpick even though the space animals have quite the advantage there. Also, if it were purely about camping those would be banned because I believe that those are two of the most campable stages in the game.

So, what has throughouly convinced you that these other stages need to be banned? If pokefloats and rainbow cruise are

A) hated by you

B) campable

C) friendly to the space animals

D) non-neutral, moving stages

What exactly is the difference between this stage and other stages?

In conclusion there is a good justification for the banning of the stages so stop trying to argue it's all about camping.

Can we hear 'em? You might learn something, we might learn something, it'd be a wonderful educational experience for everyone.

One more thing these stages are being banned for the same reasons flat zone and icicle mountain were banned. flat zone because of tools interrupting the fight (which is another reason mute might get banned) and Icicle Mountain because of the unpredictable movement of the stage i.e random.

I think Flat Zone's "u-throw u-air, u-air" and "forward throw f-smash" and "backthrow" to death at 0% might have had something to do with it too, I don't think the tools are really the big deal there.

Also, the arguement ends here. you are not convincing me to change the stages ihave already gotten confirmation that i can use my stagelist is this is a circuit event. if you dont like it dont come and miss out on your circuit points. So stop arguing about MY stagelist. It has been justified and no one even tried to attack my justification.

Maybe because you haven't posted it? All I've seen is "Fox does good there with lasers"...




There are few, if any, similarities to your banned stages to any real banned stages, that I can find...




EDIT:

I think that if our players could get better at neutral stages, we would be a much scarier region... Forward just came to two of our tourneys and owned everything in singles... Talk about a slap to our faces...

More tournaments and more players playing more often will do that.

We need to get a thread going with consistent biweeklies all over the midwest, and get those monthly tournaments going again. That way people can travel a bit, and play more.

I think it was more of Forward just being plain old better than us rather than his skill on neutrals. Did you see that crazy mofo on Jungle Japes?

 

[BIG C]

well see i posted it like 7 pages back or something.

and now just because you can die easily at flat zone is not the reason it was banned i asked eddie he told me it was the tools. PPC has a wall down the middle that allows ppl to tech hmm cornerias fin there ya go. GG has 2 walls of blacks on it allowing you to tech hmm i dont see you saying anything about that.

the "random" occurences is why they are banned you are just upset because you see stages you like banned. you have provided nothing wither other than camping isn't bad. I don't study this game like you do and I know like 98 % of smashers dont either.

If i took a survey at a tournament I doubt that more than 5 smashers could tell me wtf IASA frames are or what the timing or cause of the direction of wind on GG or DL64 is.

I have already said the argument is over it's not debatable if you don't like it too bad. advantages to space animals on the PF and RC are not as bad as on other stages as i've seen so far. I haven't seen fox get a win on PF or RC just because he can upthrow upair unless he just waits it out until the top of the stage. GG definitely allows that to happen very much so. JJ you have klap-traps and the river both outside forces interrupting the fight Mute City you can most definitely tell when cars are coming and the acid on brinstar can also be seen coming but, the klap traps are about 1000 times harder to see if two people are on the same side of the stage.

i really don't care I will go all neutral 6 if the council will allow it i have the ok to go ahead with these stages but, if i can't only do neut 6 i wont do it.

o and that's it this is my last post about it if it continues to escalate i will ask prime or AZ to come in here and distribute justice via warnings and bans if neccessary.

talk about coming to the tourny or not if u have to post.

 

[Tink]

idk why people are trying to argue this <_<. its going to be our tournament where we can implement a ruleset that we like. it doesnt have to be fair to anyone at all, im sorry. its as the kishes say, if you dont like it, then dont come. i want everyone to come and have a good time, but i dont want people to go and just bring it down for the people that are going.

just because these stages are off, doesnt mean people arnt going to have fun. i thought that was what this game was about.

and dont try to argue my post here. if anyone wants to argue this point, PM the person. there is now like 5 pages of arguements that just froed the whole topic. so stop posting that crap here. that is all/

 

[Overswarm]

well see i posted it like 7 pages back or something.

Must have missed it, but here we go..

and now just because you can die easily at flat zone is not the reason it was banned i asked eddie he told me it was the tools.

Eddie is not the end-all of smash tournament play. He's a good player and a longtime member of the smash community, but to tell me that the fact that Flatzone was so ridiculously small was not a factor in its banning....... That's a bit of a stretch.

PPC has a wall down the middle that allows ppl to tech hmm cornerias fin there ya go.

Corneria is actually one of the stages that I am leaning towards as a possible "banned" stage.

The teching of the fin, however, isn't TOO big of a deal because

1. It is a one-sided tech. If you are anywhere else on the map, you can't do it. You can only do it in that little hole

2. There is an edge that gives you invincibility frames, which allows you to move people away from the fin. If they don't move, you get a free hit and can hit the fin again. A simple strategy that prevents people from camping in that corner all day.

3. It isn't really a corner down there. You can't infinite shine with fox, which means that any low angle attacks ramp you UP the fin, which is continually curved, which will then shoot you out to the right (sometimes at a high angle). Peach's castle's wall doesn't do this; if you get hit off the wall there and do not tech, you merely bounce a little and can roll right back towards the wall, or even better just up and up/over-b (with some characters) to the other side of the map for a repeat. Corneria's rounded fin doesn't allow this.

4. You can only stationary tech if you have any hope of getting more techs off in a row, and stationary techs are suicide against an observant player. If you wall-jump tech, you are put in prime position to be hit away from the fin.

5. Only teching towards the bottom will keep you safe. Vertical attacks leave you much more vulnerable, and the higher you tech the more of a problem you have coming down.


The reason why I'm only leaning towards Corneria being banned and not advocating it is because it isn't broken. It hasn't shown itself to be a big deal in tournament play, except for those that don't know how to play the stage.

GG has 2 walls of blacks on it allowing you to tech hmm i dont see you saying anything about that.

Maybe because the blocks can be destroyed, and are destroyed when hit with a flying body, and also are mingled with bombs that cannot be teched off of?

the "random" occurences is why they are banned you are just upset because you see stages you like banned.

What random things were you referencing in this post? There's nothing random about any of these stages. They are all on a variable timer, and all confined to single areas. There are even hotspots on Corneria for the lasers o_O

I like some stages that are banned already. Mushroom Kingdom II was a favorite stage of mine. So was Onett. I cry for the person that has played me on Yoshi's Island 64. However, I recognize that they need to be banned, and so it isn't much of a problem. Onett and Mushroom Kingdom II were borderline, but they were slightly over said line.

you have provided nothing wither other than camping isn't bad. I don't study this game like you do and I know like 98 % of smashers dont either.

Then maybe you should listen to those that do?

If i took a survey at a tournament I doubt that more than 5 smashers could tell me wtf IASA frames are or what the timing or cause of the direction of wind on GG or DL64 is.

Then perhaps we need to educate them? I'm pretty sure if a smasher could have the knowledge, they would want to know.

I have already said the argument is over it's not debatable if you don't like it too bad.

That isn't really an attitude that's good to have. If you suddenly told me legitimate reasons as to why the stages should be banned I'd say "That's good enough for me. Does anyone else have any problems?" and that would be that.

advantages to space animals on the PF and RC are not as bad as on other stages as i've seen so far.

Just because space animals are prominent in tournament play and naturally good characters doesn't mean that the stages are to blame. Why not just try to ban space animals at your tournament?

I haven't seen fox get a win on PF or RC just because he can upthrow upair unless he just waits it out until the top of the stage.

?

GG definitely allows that to happen very much so.

How? Green Greens is not much smaller than yoshi's story (it is larger, even), and just because fox can u-throw u-air doesn't mean he's the only one who can. Have you ever seen Roy forward smash, Falcon forward air, Marth Forward (or even Up) Smash, Mewtwo up-throw (near 80%, instant knockout on Yoshi's Story and Green Greens), or ANY other powerful knockout move?

JJ you have klap-traps and the river both outside forces interrupting the fight

How? They're UNDER the stage. In the SAME places at ALL times. The only thing that moves is the klap trap, and that's from point A to B, and those points never change.

Mute City you can most definitely tell when cars are coming and the acid on brinstar can also be seen coming but, the klap traps are about 1000 times harder to see if two people are on the same side of the stage.

So you're banning it because some smashers don't pay enough attention to their surroundings?

i really don't care I will go all neutral 6 if the council will allow it i have the ok to go ahead with these stages but, if i can't only do neut 6 i wont do it.

Then why not go the neutral 6? Be consistent at least.

o and that's it this is my last post about it if it continues to escalate i will ask prime or AZ to come in here and distribute justice via warnings and bans if neccessary.

Why stop posting? If your logic is good and you have legitimate reasons, post them, be countered, then counter those arguments. I have yet to see ONE argument for banning these stages that holds any merit at all other than those revolving around personal reasons.

talk about coming to the tourny or not if u have to post.

Maybe. If I do I'm going to show you why banning any and all counterpicks is 100x more broken then leaving them in -_-;;

 

[Cra$hman]

mars, i told you to reach for the stars, what more do you want???

 

[Tapion013]

Then perhaps we need to educate them? I'm pretty sure if a smasher could have the knowledge, they would want to know.

I had no idea about the chozo or the fat elephant with a sign. I definitely need to pay more attention.

As for the "This is our tournament" and "don't come" thing... I'm not so sure that this debate is only limiting itself to the decisions made for this tournament. I think OS is just worried that the game is going to become very one dimensional and only one strategy will be a good one instead of all of the different styles that could potentially be successful if used properly (Correct me if I'm wrong.)

I hope midwest gets better, but I also hope we don't inhibit certain playstyles because "we don't like them."

Edit: Is there a date confirmed for this yet?

 

[Overswarm]

I had no idea about the chozo or the fat elephant with a sign. I definitely need to pay more attention.

I'd always konwn about the chozo, but I didn't know about the elephant until BigD said "Hey Overswarm, check this out. Marcus told me on the boards". I discovered that day that it was desynched slightly, but for the first 4 minutes you can literally jump blindly out there and land on the cloud.

As for the "This is our tournament" and "don't come" thing... I'm not so sure that this debate is only limiting itself to the decisions made for this tournament. I think OS is just worried that the game is going to become very one dimensional and only one strategy will be a good one instead of all of the different styles that could potentially be successful if used properly (Correct me if I'm wrong.)

That's basically it. If someone wants to ban a stage and argue for it, go for it. If someone wants to ban a ton of stages and has a systematic approach to it, go for it.

If Big C just said "any random occurances mean a stage should be banned", that is a valid philosophy. I don't AGREE with it, but it is still a valid reason, it is solid. The argument would turn to defining "random" (is the cloud on yoshi's story random? Are the cars in mute city random? Are things on variable timers random?), and whether or not that is a good reason in the first place to ban other stages.

But he seems to just have picked reasons mostly out of ignorance and a casual attitude of "it just seems like it should be banned". He knows Mute City and Brinstar shouldn't be banned because he is a peach player and is used to the stages. He knows that while they may be good, they aren't broken. He just doesn't know that about these other stages.

It's scary because this is a popular trend now, and it is almost ONLY in the midwest. I live in the midwest, so that's real important to me, especially since Brawl is coming out so soon. I am not comfortable with the mindset of "make your tournament rules however you want" since there aren't nearly enough tournaments in the midwest in the first place, especially if these tournaments are somehow part of the circuit. I am even less comfortable with something being banned before evidence is shown. I've seen a lot of people in the midwest complain about Wobbling and certain stages just because they're in "the unknown" category.

Banning things on theory is dangerous, and this tournament sets a dangerous precedent if it is part of the circuit.

I also want the midwest to get better, and I myself want to move up the ranks. I've been quickly improving and have become well known enough to where players that I have never seen ban Green Greens against me, and I would really like to see a legitimate tournament community grow here. The midwest really does have a lot of smashers, just not very many ultra-competitive ones. I asked around at the last few circuit events, and every smasher there that is trying to get good but can't make it out of pools is the "good" smasher in his area. They all have 3 or 4 friends that just play "for fun". When Brawl comes out those smashers are going to be invigorated all over again, and they might just turn competitive.

 

[Undefined]

I hope midwest gets better, but I also hope we don't inhibit certain playstyles because "we don't like them."

inhibiting a playstyle that is proven not to work isnt a bad thing.

oh and to overswarm:

1. your brother wavedashes and l-cancels.
2. i 2-3 stocked your brother on dl64, where FIGHTING ACTUALLY MATTERS. gg.

 

[Overswarm]

inhibiting a playstyle that is proven not to work isnt a bad thing.

Theoretically, you can't ever prove that something DOESN'T work. You can only prove that something did.

But theory aside, I've proven myself that camping works. I've beaten players that, on flat three platformed stages, are much better than me.

oh and to overswarm:

1. your brother wavedashes and l-cancels.
2. i 2-3 stocked your brother on dl64, where FIGHTING ACTUALLY MATTERS. gg.

1. I play iwth him often. The first time he wavedashed was right before FC6, he decided it was useless. The second tiem he wavedashed was right before SMYM7. He didn't practice it much, but he did practice l-canceling a bit before we left. Regardless, it wasn't exactly an integral part of his gameplay. Why does this matter?

2. He placed 2nd in his pool, gg? Why does that even matter?

 

[mathos]

OS every time you post I ignore it, not because I don't like you, but because its so flippin' long.

 

[Jiano]

If everyone shared Overswarm's mindset, tournaments would take even longer than they do now.

Just this weekend someone took me to Corneria. I wanted to 2-0 everyone in my pool, so I went Falco and camped him out. The match on Corneria(3 stock match) took 5 minutes. All of my other sets didn't even total to 5 minutes.

Thought I'd point out a pro to these stage bannings that you may have overlooked.

I agree with Mathos. Overswarm, please try to shorten your posts, jesus christ.

 

[Overswarm]

OS every time you post I ignore it, not because I don't like you, but because its so flippin' long.

I'm an English major. Comes with the territory.

Plus, I don't like to leave holes. Just saying "so and so and so. GG!" isn't very helpful to anyone.





Jiano, don't tournaments (good ones, anyways) have to set enough time aside for all their matches to be 8 minutes anyway? And wouldn't the solution to be to lower the timer?

 

[Deleted member]

I like neutral stages. They are fun.

 

[Tink]

seriously, to the poeple argueing in this post, you do it again, and im going to talk to a mod to get you people warnings. this isnt the place to discuss why you think stages should or shouldnt be on for a tournament. if you wanna argue it, make your own thread for it, but not here.

your argueing isnt going to change anything with this tourny at all. idk why you are still going on, when countless times we said we arnt changing it. stop posting about the rules.

 

[Cra$hman]

In my opinion the stage selection should be designed to promote balance in the characters. We have a good idea of how good the characters are so by handicapping the characters that are slightly better with stages we can make it possible for more characters to be used competitively. Obviously this has limits, bad characters are never gonna be good on any level. But with the right mix it should be possible to have up to 9 viable characters.

p.s. i started writing my post before tinks post so i'm exempt from that rule

 

[Zjiin]

Woooo woooooooo! Tink po po's gonna mess you up, sheeeeot.