How would this affect your character?

[kupo15]

Hi,
I don't know how many of you know what brawl+ is but its basically a project designed to make brawl more competitive like the previous two smash games by bringing back the mechanics that were found in smash 64.

How would removing the plummeting dair affect sheik given the fact that she can combo very well in brawl+? Think about being able to Dair and stay in mid air AND being able to follow up after it because of hitstun. What would this improve about sheik and what would it take away and what do you think is best for sheik in brawl+ where she and many other characters already can do a lot more things.

I'm asking you because I don't know crap about sheik

Another suggestion would be to shorten the lag on the dair so you can get out of the plummet faster

Thanks for your time

Please don't make this an anti brawl+ thread. I just need some help

 

[Voyeur]

Keep Ftilt where it's at, the upped gravity and hitstun shouldn't take away from an affect that is a real aid to her game in Brawl. Or bring back the initial power of her Fair knock back and decrease the knock back of Down Thrown to regain the chain grabbing properties would be nice. Seeing as those are some of the key differences from Brawl to Melee, and if the original hitstun properties are coming back then it's only easy to imply Sheik should have her old combos given back as well.
Instead of being in a sort of handi-cap with Ftilt being nerfed, Fair being nerfed, Dthrow being nerfed.

Not sure about the Dair because to be honest, I think this goes for everyone, we simply don't use it.
It can be a nice switch up when the speed of Dair to hit the ground instead of fast falling currently. I think basically how Dair is now, is simply fine with the one side affect of it being hard to cancel. If you could shorten the time in which you are able to simply cancel out of it to continue with other attacks that'd be fine.

It would also aid it's previous effect of reaching back to the ground quicker, cancel, and have a lagless or auto cancel affect when you reach the ground. Other then that just it being the Dair with out going down is taking away from a mechanic she was originally intended to have all along, that's really morphing the game to much in my opinion. But if you could do the Dair, hit, cancel it quickly enough, with the same side effects of it being as if you did remove the plummet. ....then that would be just fine.

 

[kupo15]

Keep Ftilt where it's at, the upped gravity and hitstun shouldn't take away from an affect that is a real aid to her game in Brawl. Or bring back the initial power of her Fair knock back and decrease the knock back of Down Thrown to regain the chain grabbing properties would be nice. Seeing as those are some of the key differences from Brawl to Melee, and if the original hitstun properties are coming back then it's only easy to imply Sheik should have her old combos given back as well.
Instead of being in a sort of handi-cap with Ftilt being nerfed, Fair being nerfed, Dthrow being nerfed.

Not sure about the Dair because to be honest, I think this goes for everyone, we simply don't use it.
It can be a nice switch up when the speed of Dair to hit the ground instead of fast falling currently. I think basically how Dair is now, is simply fine with the one side affect of it being hard to cancel. If you could shorten the time in which you are able to simply cancel out of it to continue with other attacks that'd be fine.

It would also aid it's previous effect of reaching back to the ground quicker, cancel, and have a lagless or auto cancel affect when you reach the ground. Other then that just it being the Dair with out going down is taking away from a mechanic she was originally intended to have all along, that's really morphing the game to much in my opinion. But if you could do the Dair, hit, cancel it quickly enough, with the same side effects of it being as if you did remove the plummet. ....then that would be just fine.

We do plan on nerfing the Ftilt lock so that you can't lock with it but rather combo with another move. Being able to get someone up to 70% with one move doesn't seem right. We are planning on buffing the Fair. I think getting rid of the plummet would be better because that way you can move with the Dair instead of stopping in your tracks which even with a shorter time is hard to follow up if you can't move with the dair.

And from your post it seems like restoring the Dair to act like melees would be beneficial for her which is what I thought.

 

[SinkingHigher]

I think it's time Brawl+ got a new forum.

 

[kupo15]

I think it's time Brawl+ got a new forum.

Me too although I would still have to come to these forums to post this because its unlikely that many of you would venture over to this thread if it were there...

 

[zxeon]

I think it's time Brawl+ got a new forum.

Enjoy having your post reported spammer.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

I think it's time Brawl+ got a new forum.

It is a work in progress. The staff is currently discussing it, but it is complicated. There is a web of sticky legal issues that we have to work out before creating the room.

 

[kupo15]

It is a work in progress. The staff is currently discussing it, but it is complicated. There is a web of sticky legal issues that we have to work out before creating the room.

I can't imagine what legal issues there would be since we are doing gameshark..something that was never an issue with nintendo. Its not like we are doing the illegal stuff like the VC games. Nintendo should just release a gameshark on the shop channel and make tons of money

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

I can't imagine what legal issues there would be since we are doing gameshark..something that was never an issue with nintendo. Its not like we are doing the illegal stuff like the VC games. Nintendo should just release a gameshark on the shop channel and make tons of money

Trust us. We will make a decision that is best for everyone. There are more legal issues involved than you would like to believe.

 

[Albert.]

forgive my ignorance...

but VC games?

I can't place the acronym

 

[kupo15]

Trust us. We will make a decision that is best for everyone. There are more legal issues involved than you would like to believe.

K, I' trust you to make the right decisions

forgive my ignorance...

but VC games?

I can't place the acronym

Virtual console

 

[Flamingo]

I HATE THE PLUMMET. I vote take off the plummet, and if possible make the move avtually useful. Like +hitstun, +knockback, -ending lag, or something. Cause Dair blows.

 

[FrozenFire13]

I HATE THE PLUMMET. I vote take off the plummet, and if possible make the move avtually useful. Like +hitstun, +knockback, -ending lag, or something. Cause Dair blows.

I would actually take away some knockback. More combo ability there, true?

 

[zxeon]

If taking away it's dive function proves impossible I say we get rid of the pause at the beginning of the attack.

 

[FrozenFire13]

If taking away it's dive function proves impossible I say we get rid of the pause at the beginning of the attack.

That might not be bad, but it might not be good either. The pause effect is meant to fake out the opponent and screw up their timing. So unless we move the priority of the move up somehow, idk.

 

[<π]

: (

 

[Tristan_win]

If they take away sheik ftilt then they should buff up her kill power of her dsmash or something up to around tipper usmash level. Right now it's like the tipper will kill as low as 90% but then are next best killer kills at 130%. That's a pretty big jump right there.

Also the game can hold 5 characters at once. Why not program it so that the game will load zelda into the exta slot so sheik can do a quick change to zelda. It would be even sexier if you could somehow manage to program the other character to switch to sheik once you switch to zelda.

...Of course this is assuming that this other load character will not be able to be a part of the game.

 

[Blistering Speed]

If you take away the plummet then you should also lessen the landing lag if you're persuing making it a valid option. It's virtually useless at this point in time, it would at least have situational use with these changes, though it still has relatively high startup.

Tristan's idea to lessen transformation time would make a much larger and well needed impact though.

*Edit* Apologies for hijacking the thread here Kupo, but is there a way with homebrew to test hitstun, or a precise way of measuring frame data? If there are any Brawl+'ers that are capable of testing this, it would be greatly appreciated if you could figure out:

1) The hitstun on Sheik's jab, second jab and on the actual rapid jab (also if the hitstun is the same on each jab of the rapid jab).
2) The amount of frames it takes for Sheik to crouch to cancel a jab into a neutral position (able to perform anything).

 

[kupo15]

If you take away the plummet then you should also lessen the landing lag if you're persuing making it a valid option. It's virtually useless at this point in time, it would at least have situational use with these changes, though it still has relatively high startup.

Tristan's idea to lessen transformation time would make a much larger and well needed impact though.

*Edit* Apologies for hijacking the thread here Kupo, but is there a way with homebrew to test hitstun, or a precise way of measuring frame data? If there are any Brawl+'ers that are capable of testing this, it would be greatly appreciated if you could figure out:

1) The hitstun on Sheik's jab, second jab and on the actual rapid jab (also if the hitstun is the same on each jab of the rapid jab).
2) The amount of frames it takes for Sheik to crouch to cancel a jab into a neutral position (able to perform anything).

Well, one of our codes is auto l canceling so everyones lag is reduced in half automatically.
We have discussed the transformation issue and Im pretty sure its impossible since the other half loads in game instead of before it.

Yes, there is a debugger code out there for you to go by frame by frame

 

[Flamingo]

do aerial needles L-cancel? so like can we combo after an aerial needle storm?

PS is there a Brawl+ tier list?

 

[Wildfire393]

In Melee, there were actually some Dair combos that could be done. I'm pretty sure I've seen high-level Sheik players chain 3-4 of them in a row by Shuffling them, due to its low Knockback, but L-canceling is necessary due to the landing lag.

However, I don't think this is necessary in Brawl, to be honest. It was mostly a Gimmick combo used by pros to show off.

 

[Voyeur]

I say if you take away the plummet all together to increase it's knock back to hit DOWN by ten fold and thus finally giving Sheik a viable and useable Spike/meteor mash.
In short make it something like Samus' Dair perhaps. That start up lag with an ending hit.

 

[kupo15]

In Melee, there were actually some Dair combos that could be done. I'm pretty sure I've seen high-level Sheik players chain 3-4 of them in a row by Shuffling them, due to its low Knockback, but L-canceling is necessary due to the landing lag.

However, I don't think this is necessary in Brawl, to be honest. It was mostly a Gimmick combo used by pros to show off.

That is why we took out the tech part and just made all landing lag aerials half by default. It makes sense

I say if you take away the plummet all together to increase it's knock back to hit DOWN by ten fold and thus finally giving Sheik a viable and useable Spike/meteor mash.
In short make it something like Samus' Dair perhaps. That start up lag with an ending hit.

Not necessary. All we need to do is get rid of meteor canceling and it will be fine

 

[zxeon]

Realisticly Meteor Canceling isn't that big of an issue you still fall far enough to die. I'd be nice to be rid of it but it doesn't get in the way of normal meteor attack KOs.

 

[kupo15]

Realisticly Meteor Canceling isn't that big of an issue you still fall far enough to die. I'd be nice to be rid of it but it doesn't get in the way of normal meteor attack KOs.

lol tell that to the mario players. If you remove meteor canceling, then meteors will be more diverse then they are now and ganons won't be the only good meteor anymore.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qd4JblpdacQ&feature=channel_page

look at the last one and tell me MCing isn't a big deal and you can die anyway and it doesn't get in the way from a meteor attack. If you see at the 100% one, mario could have gotten punished by the snake since snake MCed before mario was finished the fair.

 

[zxeon]

Everyone knows Mario's Meteor is garbage. It just needs to get buffed.

We're getting off topic here,

 

[kupo15]

Everyone knows Mario's Meteor is garbage. It just needs to get buffed.

We're getting off topic here,

obviously you didn't notice that its garbage because of the meteor cancel

We are not getting off topic because the same problem is with sheiks dair. The MC makes the dair spike garbage. Get rid of the MC and it won't be a garbage move. THAT is the buff

 

[zxeon]

You have a point.

 

[Voyeur]

what I was saying it is Sheik's Dair should become a spike. At this moment in time the attack sends your opponent upwards, which is only viable when at the very top of a stage in the air, quickly Dair and they get sent up for the KO.

Of my knowledge I've never been able to spike or even remotely hit people downwards with the Dair, so I'm saying perhaps you could make it hit down instead of sending your opponent up =P
if that makes sense...

 

[rathy Aro]

I don't suggest buffing sheik at all. Brawl+ isn't trying to balance the characeters too right? (its impossible) Anyway for her dair, I would be happy if it actually hit the opponent downward and remained a stall and fall. I'm not saying it should be a powerful spike, just a decent semi-spike so the move is actually useful.

Also. Will brawl+ have spikes?

 

[kupo15]

what I was saying it is Sheik's Dair should become a spike. At this moment in time the attack sends your opponent upwards, which is only viable when at the very top of a stage in the air, quickly Dair and they get sent up for the KO.

Of my knowledge I've never been able to spike or even remotely hit people downwards with the Dair, so I'm saying perhaps you could make it hit down instead of sending your opponent up =P
if that makes sense...

oh i thought you said that the move acts differently and it spikes now

I don't suggest buffing sheik at all. Brawl+ isn't trying to balance the characeters too right? (its impossible) Anyway for her dair, I would be happy if it actually hit the opponent downward and remained a stall and fall. I'm not saying it should be a powerful spike, just a decent semi-spike so the move is actually useful.

Also. Will brawl+ have spikes?

We are trying to balance the characters a little (tiny bit)

Yes, be gone this meteor canceling crap. 64 spikes are back!!!

 

[Voyeur]

I think meteor canceling should be kept to a degree because that in essence is giving a more balanced feel to the game since not all characters have a spike to begin with and capitalize off of.

Micro-thinking: If every character had a spike, then meteor canceling could be taken out to go back to your way of saying the reward for going for (getting) the spike, since every character there after would benefit, But...

...See as it stands, meteor canceling is only a negative aspect against Characters who profit from spikes, where as those who can't and who can meteor mash all profit from meteor canceling. In retrospect there are ways for the entire cast to escape Vertical and Horizontal KOs through DI, SDI and momentum killing. Those being the means of KO outside of spiking down (or gimping)

so why shouldn't there be a way to escape being KO'ed down as well, that's how I see it. Keeping it is a plus for all, taking it out just favors cast with spikes. Very anti-balance outlook in my opinion.

 

[kupo15]

I think meteor canceling should be kept to a degree because that in essence is giving a more balanced feel to the game since not all characters have a spike to begin with and capitalize off of.

Micro-thinking: If every character had a spike, then meteor canceling could be taken out to go back to your way of saying the reward for going for (getting) the spike, since every character there after would benefit, But...

...See as it stands, meteor canceling is only a negative aspect against Characters who profit from spikes, where as those who can't and who can meteor mash all profit from meteor canceling. In retrospect there are ways for the entire cast to escape Vertical and Horizontal KOs through DI, SDI and momentum killing. Those being the means of KO outside of spiking down (or gimping)

so why shouldn't there be a way to escape being KO'ed down as well, that's how I see it. Keeping it is a plus for all, taking it out just favors cast with spikes. Very anti-balance outlook in my opinion.

I disagree. Not everyones spike is as strong as ganons and spikes are meant to kill low. If your near the ledge, a tech is your defense. If they risk themselves by going out to spike, they deserve it since a missed spikes puts them in the a worse position than the recovering person.

Not all chars have spikes the same way not all chars have projectiles. I don't feel it imbalances the game at all but rather balances the game that way people who attempt spikes don't get punished when they connect with them.

I spiked someone at 80%, gaw up b;s stage spiked me, i died he lived. Not cool

 

[Voyeur]

But with Brawl+'s hitstun, where is the "risk" in spiking? it becomes null and void now practically. Like back in melee with Marth and the Ken combo etc.
Unless you're going out for a random spike while they're recovering, which usually should connect if you're a good player because their only option then is to hope their Up+B does damage or aerial dodge, and hope their Up+B can still make it before the spiker in question edge hogs.

As far as projectile balance goes, that is what power shielding, spot dodging, roll dodging or simply Jumping is for. And almost all projectiles in the game can be canceled by some other means, Nair, Jabs, counter etc. ...so in short I'm saying that is weak grounds to state your reasoning on since there are many variables to deal with projectiles and as it stands only one major way to deal with a spike.
Ledge teching depends on the stage and the very point of where you were even spiked at.

It's ultimately whoevers' project to take out meteor canceling but in an honest out look and unbiased since I do also play Zelda who has an awesome and lovely spike (isn't even stronger then Ganon's?) I still think meteor canceling should stay because common sense screams, balanced in a very skill oriented game that becomes less needed when most people use top tier simply because they are top tier.

It will there for shift the metagame back to more Marth players, Fox, Falco etc. Centralization on a game makes it poor and thrives around key aspects, instead of variety and originality.

 

[kupo15]

It will there for shift the metagame back to more Marth players, Fox, Falco etc. Centralization on a game makes it poor and thrives around key aspects, instead of variety and originality.

right now the metagame is just that. If you have a good spike, your golden but all the crappy ones (there are a lot) suck. Without MCing, spikes will be more diverse an more balanced then they are now. Spiking is also the easiest to avoid in brawl over 64 or melee. I guess Ill have to prove it when the code comes out.

 

[Voyeur]

If I want insta-kills from spikes at 0% then I'll stick to Melee but I feel Brawl evolved from that and should stay that way other wise by killing centralization of one aspect in a game. Which is hard to do.

In any sense, back to topic. Sheik's current down air is horrible;
bad start up lag in air
long ending lag after hitting the ground
stuck in fixed down motion for too long (which causes self destructs when accidentally tapped off stage)
Hits opponent Up while you travel down, killing any possible combos

so to fix it, the start up would either have to be shortened or have a greater reward.
You said auto L cancel code is in apparently so alright for that much,
Need to be able to cancel the attack while doing it at any point or take the plummet off all together I guess....but being able to plummet or choose to cancel it is better imo
If you could make it so it knocks your opponent down instead of up as in a spike then that'd be awesome
(That being said, even if Sheik had a spike, I think MC should stay)

 

[kupo15]

If I want insta-kills from spikes at 0% then I'll stick to Melee but I feel Brawl evolved from that and should stay that way other wise by killing centralization of one aspect in a game. Which is hard to do.

In any sense, back to topic. Sheik's current down air is horrible;
bad start up lag in air
long ending lag after hitting the ground
stuck in fixed down motion for too long (which causes self destructs when accidentally tapped off stage)
Hits opponent Up while you travel down, killing any possible combos

so to fix it, the start up would either have to be shortened or have a greater reward.
You said auto L cancel code is in apparently so alright for that much,
Need to be able to cancel the attack while doing it at any point or take the plummet off all together I guess....but being able to plummet or choose to cancel it is better imo
If you could make it so it knocks your opponent down instead of up as in a spike then that'd be awesome
(That being said, even if Sheik had a spike, I think MC should stay)

Well you won't kill at 0. Most spikes are so weak that would never happen. Mario needs you at 50% to even be considered a meteor and falcons dair is about 40? I can only think of 3 spikes but I don't think it will be as bad as you think it will be.


I don't think we are going in the direction of completely changing the move like turning non spikes into spikes. I think that if we make the dair like melee, it could set up for a slap which will be buffed.

 

[Voyeur]

Marth, Falco, Pit, Samus, Mario, Ganon, Captain Falcon, Wolf, Fox, R.O.B., Snake, TL and Link, Ike, Ness, Donkey Kong and on and on of who ever else can spike.

0% is referring to the beginning start up of the combo + knock backs, until the spike connects. I'm not saying you're literally spiked at 0%
which a 0-40/50% loss of a stock is a lot cheaper then one mere move being able to rack up damage from 30-70% on only a select few of the cast, not including DI'ing Up-In, with Sheik's Ftilt.

you're favoring certain things over others and that isn't the goal of most game developers, you already have a pretty well balanced game with Brawl. Giving every one Hitstun back is going to level the playing field a lot for the considered "lower tier" characters currently, but giving half the characters a spike advantage over those who can't is taking one giant step backwards.

but good luck with the project.

 

[kupo15]

Marth, Falco, Pit, Samus, Mario, Ganon, Captain Falcon, Wolf, Fox, R.O.B., Snake, TL and Link, Ike, Ness, Donkey Kong and on and on of who ever else can spike.

0% is referring to the beginning start up of the combo + knock backs, until the spike connects. I'm not saying you're literally spiked at 0%
which a 0-40/50% loss of a stock is a lot cheaper then one mere move being able to rack up damage from 30-70% on only a select few of the cast, not including DI'ing Up-In, with Sheik's Ftilt.

you're favoring certain things over others and that isn't the goal of most game developers, you already have a pretty well balanced game with Brawl. Giving every one Hitstun back is going to level the playing field a lot for the considered "lower tier" characters currently, but giving half the characters a spike advantage over those who can't is taking one giant step backwards.

but good luck with the project.

I completely disagree. But whatever the outcome, if it makes it worse, then we dont use it. But its not like we are not going to at least try it.

 

[Flamingo]

I believe that making true combos and making spikes=death is actually what a lot of gamers like, and that's why there is such a great divide between those Melee faithfuls, and those who like Brawl.

As for me, Brawl>Melee, and I would like to learn Melee if it wasn't well... dying. A lot of melee people will disagree with what I just said, but where are all of your old pros, Ken, PC Chris, KDJ, Husband, etc?

I think by making Brawl+ into basically a less hardcore, child Melee... we could gather a large competiteve crowd from both games. That's just me, but I think that 'true combos' are pretty interesting, although I have mixed feelings about the 0-death combos that exist predominantly in Melee, but in Brawl as well (Gay infinite grabs, CG-Spike, etc.).

I think that a nice medium will be found soon that will appeal to the players of both games.