Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[Diosama]

Well Jason told me tonight he has occasional problems dashing backwards now, although it was fine when the controller was brand new.

View attachment 88369

Price difference is ridiculous, but the price of Japanese whites changes all the time, often hitting $30-35. There's just no telling when lol.

Edit: I'll probably end up getting two sm4sh controllers and using the best one, keeping both, selling one, or returning one. $44 for 2 controllers after shipping is a steal. I'm sick of dropping chaingrabs lol.

Just bought one for my younger brother so I can finally have a training partner outside of school. It's unfortunate that the canadian dollar is so **** tho, costs 35$

 

[DCW]

-ACE- This doesn't answer your question, but it is a nice explanation of what's going on with smash turns, regardless of controller.

http://www.meleeitonme.com/back-dashes-smash-turns/

 

[-ACE-]

-ACE- This doesn't answer your question, but it is a nice explanation of what's going on with smash turns, regardless of controller.

http://www.meleeitonme.com/back-dashes-smash-turns/

That helps a little, thanks.

 

[Bwmat]

I just figured out the reason I've been unintentionally smashing on platforms so much when I try fall-through aerial; I'm inputting the aerial so fast that I'm cancelling the fall-through. I always thought I was messing up the fall- through input itself or doing it too early.

 

[-ACE-]

I just figured out the reason I've been unintentionally smashing on platforms so much when I try fall-through aerial; I'm inputting the aerial so fast that I'm cancelling the fall-through. I always thought I was messing up the fall- through input itself or doing it too early.

I think I have the same issue somewhat.

 

[Bwmat]

I never knew falling through platforms could be cancelled like that. On that note, do all characters have the same frame data for the fall-through, or is it related to jump squat?

 

[-ACE-]

Pretty sure it's the same (and not related to jumpsquat), viability just varies with fall speed. Isai drops and shield drops all work the same.

 

[Surfero]

Sup guys

This is a recent set I just played at a tournament. I've been feeling a bit more comfortable in the marth matchup, but let me know if there is anything noticeable that is bad.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaRyQW6NeAg&feature=youtu.be

 

[-ACE-]

I'll check it tomorrow bro

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Sup guys

This is a recent set I just played at a tournament. I've been feeling a bit more comfortable in the marth matchup, but let me know if there is anything noticeable that is bad.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaRyQW6NeAg&feature=youtu.be

Quick analysis: your survival DI is REALLY good. Your combo DI is REALLY bad. Lol you gotta DI out when you get grabbed and when you're getting fair'd all over the place. Also, when you're getting edge guarded by marth, you have to react well. If they jump, you should DI up and away for the fair, then DI up and in; the reason for this is that when you DI up and away on fair, they can only hit you with another fair (and then they have no jumps left, so DI up and in is ok). If they decide to nair instead, you can react to that pretty well. Sometimes up and away DI will get you out of the second hit as well. You DI'd fsmashes well.

You tried to challenge marth's fair with your own a bit too much. When you're facing marth, his fair will always beat yours. Sometimes you can beat out his nair, but don't try to just fair your way through his aerials. Bair is a much more solid choice - it will at the very most trade with marth fair.

Your recovery game was all over the place. I really liked a lot of those air dodges to avoid the gimp setups and everything, but sometimes your normal recovery game was risky. On yoshi's story, using the down-b recover is never actually safe vs marth. Your opponent didn't punish you for it, but just be careful with it because a marth more familiar with the matchup will punish those.

One more thing: don't shield grab marth's nair. I know it looks tempting, but any self-respecting marth player will cross you up and dash dance. I like to stomp / bair in this scenario. I know there was an instance in the last game on BF where a stomp would've connected. I remember doing this to cactuar a lot and it hit every time until he adapted and started up tilting. If you're in your shield, up tilt is punishable with reverse up-b OOS.

Overall good set, you seem like you have solid fundamentals and knowledge in the matchup. Keep it up!

 

[Surfero]

Quick analysis: your survival DI is REALLY good. Your combo DI is REALLY bad. Lol you gotta DI out when you get grabbed and when you're getting fair'd all over the place. Also, when you're getting edge guarded by marth, you have to react well. If they jump, you should DI up and away for the fair, then DI up and in; the reason for this is that when you DI up and away on fair, they can only hit you with another fair (and then they have no jumps left, so DI up and in is ok). If they decide to nair instead, you can react to that pretty well. Sometimes up and away DI will get you out of the second hit as well. You DI'd fsmashes well.

You tried to challenge marth's fair with your own a bit too much. When you're facing marth, his fair will always beat yours. Sometimes you can beat out his nair, but don't try to just fair your way through his aerials. Bair is a much more solid choice - it will at the very most trade with marth fair.

Your recovery game was all over the place. I really liked a lot of those air dodges to avoid the gimp setups and everything, but sometimes your normal recovery game was risky. On yoshi's story, using the down-b recover is never actually safe vs marth. Your opponent didn't punish you for it, but just be careful with it because a marth more familiar with the matchup will punish those.

One more thing: don't shield grab marth's nair. I know it looks tempting, but any self-respecting marth player will cross you up and dash dance. I like to stomp / bair in this scenario. I know there was an instance in the last game on BF where a stomp would've connected. I remember doing this to cactuar a lot and it hit every time until he adapted and started up tilting. If you're in your shield, up tilt is punishable with reverse up-b OOS.

Overall good set, you seem like you have solid fundamentals and knowledge in the matchup. Keep it up!

Very interesting and helpful points. Thanks a lot for the advice, I'll take everything into consideration.

My combo DI was very bad at many instants during this set. It's something I am still working on a bit so I'll definitely keep it in mind when playing.

 

[-ACE-]

3:58 is a classic Ganon vs marth scenario. Uair whiffs because Marth has this uncanny ability to tech in time (before you can uair him) at a very wide range of percents. Remember just to take the techchase opportunity, at the time the uair seems free but it's an illusion.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

3:58 is a classic Ganon vs marth scenario. Uair whiffs because Marth has this uncanny ability to tech in time (before you can uair him) at a very wide range of percents. Remember just to take the techchase opportunity, at the time the uair seems free but it's an illusion.

Can you waveland on and regrab on reaction here? I usually just double up air and it usually covers everything, but a regrab would be the obvious better choice, especially if it was guaranteed.

 

[-ACE-]

Can you waveland on and regrab on reaction here? I usually just double up air and it usually covers everything, but a regrab would be the obvious better choice, especially if it was guaranteed.

On BF, backwards jump NIL grab is broken. Most percents you should be able to wL grab tho yeah. At super low% I often go for the hard read stomp, any higher and it's grab if close to center stage, or uair if near ledge.

Also when I go for the stomp on plat, if I miss, I usually shield drop or drop thru uair, or drop to instant dj retreating uair.

 

[-ACE-]

Joe and I have been doing this for a while, but this setup:

http://youtu.be/ab009ITuYJs

5:58

Side-b to untechable stomp also works on marth, better than Ganon. I swear I think the same aspects of his tumble animation that aid him in teching on platforms quickly (that and the general behavior of his trajectory during stun due to his weight) also helps with untechable stomps. By this I mean maybe the window is bigger by 1-2 frames lol, that's it. But Ganon dittos are probably my best matchup (sadly) and as much as I've played that matchup I think this setup works better vs marth.

 

[-ACE-]

Last night's VS tourney was kinda stacked... Rula, after losing to porkchops on Saturday's tourney, won this one. Unfortunately, no Ganon representation. I beat 2 Falcons and then had to forfeit before playing Elliot (gf is at work with no car johns). I gave the second falcon the win after I 2-0'd him, lol. Had to leave anyway.

 

[KenMeister]

I have a question to all. Amongst maining Ganon, I've felt like developing a Falco as a secondary, mostly either for fun or just covering bad MUs. Does anyone feel it'd ruin most Ganon mains' style of play at all, or will most of my fundamentals carry well between playing the two consecutively? He's honestly the only character I play besides Ganon other than maybe Link and Bowser for funsies.

 

[-ACE-]

I have a question to all. Amongst maining Ganon, I've felt like developing a Falco as a secondary, mostly either for fun or just covering bad MUs. Does anyone feel it'd ruin most Ganon mains' style of play at all, or will most of my fundamentals carry well between playing the two consecutively? He's honestly the only character I play besides Ganon other than maybe Link and Bowser for funsies.

It wouldn't necessarily ruin anything. Some people are better off focusing on one character usually, and others have better luck having/using secondaries and pocket high tiers. You'll have to put in some work to get your Falco combo game on point. But if you can do it, it'll help you. Just make sure you play Ganon periodically to keep your tech up.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

My secondary is falco.

I find it pretty easy to switch between Ganon and falco because their jump squats are similar.

 

[KenMeister]

My secondary is falco.

I find it pretty easy to switch between Ganon and falco because their jump squats are similar.

I felt the same way myself actually. I originally wanted to second Sheik, but I hated her jumpsquat too, and her lack of good movement tools made her boring for me. Everyone else was either tech skill barriers related to jump squats and/or movement (Fox, Marth, Falcon) kinda boring (Jiggs, ICs) or just flat out can't play at all (Peach)

 

[Diosama]

I'm just gonna solo Ganon for a long time, then see about picking up other characters. I think it's important to learn how to play the bad mus instead of just hiding behind other characters. Ganon is also the most comfortable character for me to control.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

I have a question to all. Amongst maining Ganon, I've felt like developing a Falco as a secondary, mostly either for fun or just covering bad MUs. Does anyone feel it'd ruin most Ganon mains' style of play at all, or will most of my fundamentals carry well between playing the two consecutively? He's honestly the only character I play besides Ganon other than maybe Link and Bowser for funsies.

As someone who has constantly been switching on and off between Ganon and other characters for the past 2 and a half years, I strongly recommend that you try to stick to only one character for at least a year period of time. In the first 6 months of you playing, it's fine for you to experiment and see which character you like to play as, but once you reach those 6 months you need to stay on that one character and not switch from them for at least a full year. This way you are not constantly switching characters every two months and really slowing your growth. If you really want to main both Ganon and Falco... well then you're going to be told that you might as well just main Falco, but if you really think it's a good idea and you want to dedicate yourself to it, do it for a year, that way you really get to see if something works for you or doesn't.

This is something I wish I had done from the beginning.

 

[KenMeister]

Yeah, my situation is that I started competitive play for Melee around two years ago, only to have been very off/on due to college, work and Smash 4 taking up a lot of my time. I do have a lot of basic fundamental tools and movement down, it's more just keeping it up consistently, MU knowledge, and optimal punish reads I'm lacking. I might see if I can get friendly footage up sometime for critique. Thanks for the advice guys, awesome community from what I've witnessed so far. I'll look into making it a habit of posting here more often.

 

[-ACE-]

If you want to play Ganon and Falco come to SFL... spider_sense and porkchops are pretty good training partners LOL

 

[KenMeister]

If you want to play Ganon and Falco come to SFL... spider_sense and porkchops are pretty good training partners LOL

I'm actually from Pensacola, around NW Florida. We have some pretty good players here, Rice being the best one here, and supposedly A Rookie is moving down here soon. Even Eikelmann has visited the area on occasion before he moved, I just never got to meet him due to my then-busy schedule. Lol

 

[-ACE-]

Rice is definitely good.

 

[Diosama]

Just watched Linguini's combo video for like the 20th time. I decree this Ganon's theme song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsCTR_un9bg

 

[X WaNtEd X]

I wish I was in SFL. Setting up training sessions with good players sounds so easy there.

 

[-ACE-]

I wish I was in SFL. Setting up training sessions with good players sounds so easy there.

It also hasn't gotten below 70 but once all "winter" lol. It's like 78 now. Take a vacay lol

 

[KenMeister]

Only time I ever had a good training session with anyone was when Zone still lived in Pensacola. He's the one who showed me alot of interesting waveland mixups that I've used since then. RIP ever having a good training session again. lol

 

[X WaNtEd X]

It also hasn't gotten below 70 but once all "winter" lol. It's like 78 now. Take a vacay lol

Not gonna happen for awhile. School and work weight heavy on me. Someday...

 

[-ACE-]

So I ordered a brand new sm4sh black and a brand new sm4sh white controller, total $44 with free shipping on Amazon. I got one of each because I heard that on some of the black ones the octagon gate can be rotated slightly, or that the position of the gate could vary rotationally. I'm rolling the dice there, as a slight rotation can make shield drops on one side impossible via the "Axe method" (shield dropping by rolling to bottom notch). Rolling the dice on smash turns and backwards dashes too lol, we'll see. I'll report back in a week with how they perform, I'm pretty picky too. Cheapest I've ever seen new controllers.

 

[Swagic]

Alright, my wonderful Ganon mains, I have a "WTF JUST HAPPENED?" for you.

I was working on the fox cg with my training partner on DL64 (it's getting easier!). To screw with him, as he was at about 185-190 (I think it was 187 the first time), I switched it up with a uthrow directly under a platform for the kill. And... He couldn't tech it. He didn't bounce, he definitely landed on the platform, but he could do nothing to hide from the fair that killed him. We were both like "what?" And so we tried it again and again. It consistently happened, both sides, against fox, ~185-190, a half a dozen times.

Any explanations? And does this have much use? Tried it on Battlefield, he bounced on the platforms at about 85. Is it just a DL glitch?

Edit: when I say landed without a bounce, it looked like he was doing a stationary waveland, but on his back.

 

[tm]

Uh. He's really bad at teching?

 

[Swagic]

Uh. He's really bad at teching?

No, he's the most consistent with techskill of anybody I can practice with. It happened repeatedly.

 

[-ACE-]

Forget the cg after 140%. Get him offstage before that.

 

[Swagic]

This was dedicated cg practice. He was just doing random DI and techrolling if I missed. I realize it's a bit far-fetched, but other platforms are much shorter. What if you could do it to a fox at about 65 on battlefield?

 

[-ACE-]

This was dedicated cg practice. He was just doing random DI and techrolling if I missed. I realize it's a bit far-fetched, but other platforms are much shorter. What if you could do it to a fox at about 65 on battlefield?

I can do that on my good days. But as soon as you have him uthrow trapped anywhere from 50-90% you should go for that. On BF, often FoD, and basically always on YS, uthrow guarantees him offstage.

At this percent range, you regrab DI behind and wallah, another platform is in front of you. Then just go again. They will most likely DI away as soon as they link DI behind to getting uthrow'd/getting regrabbed, so. Let them tech and uair them offstage. If they DI behind AGAIN, regrab and yet again they are uthrow trapped. But since they will probably NOT DI behind after being regrabbed for it, you can usually dthrow and regrab his likely away DI with ease. And this is better in some situations. You really only have someone uthrow trapped when you are directly under the edge of the plat or a little bit away from the plat. If you are closer to the center of the plat, they can DI the uthrow away, continue to hold away, and purposely not tech. The far edge of the plat will cancel their stun and they are safe. Think efficiency. I love the thought of chaingrabbing people to death, and any practice you put into it is definitely worth it, but everyone drops regrabs. Option-limiting techchase + edgeguard = profit.

 

[-ACE-]

The continuing saga of Ace getting bodied by porkchops

http://youtu.be/4nYQJaWff1w

Lol, should've recorded AFTER warming up. almost all vicious 3 stocks lmao, game 5 gets cut off but I lose via suicide. Lots of flubs, bad decisions, poor zoning, bad spacing, missed opportunities, etc. I was really slow overall also. Couldn't adapt quickly at all. But if people can learn something from my mistakes that's good. I'm going to record more next time, hopefully the matches will be closer lmao.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

I studied a bunch of Ganon vs Falco last night. Watched something like 20 videos from Kage, Linguini, and Spidersense within the last year playing Falcos of varying levels of skill. And I came to some conclusions about how to play oos vs. Falco and how to deal with lasers.

I think I could create a pretty good flowchart, but here are just some general observations for now off the top of my head.

Shielding lasers seems to be good at long distances. Medium distances cc ftilt on lasers into cc jab worked. Shielding into full hop was great at this distance too. If Falco is aggressive with lasers and approaching, full hop retreating uair. If defensive, empty full hop toward Falco land into a position where you can cc jab. Short distances cc jab rules. If Falco shields your jab, you either do something aggressive if you've picked up a bad habit or if they're spot on with their oos you immediately shield. Not sure if guaranteed, but I saw these guys being able to shield after jab on shield and getting away with it.

If Falco lands with early aerial on shield in front or on top, shield grab. If Falco does late aerial in this position, buffer roll. If Falco crosses up, dair oos and bair oos work a lot of the time. You just have to react to whether they cross up well or not. It seems even good Falcos will **** up when they cross your shield up a lot.