Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[-ACE-]

http://youtu.be/ab009ITuYJs
You guys are ****ing trolls

edit: ****ING SICK untechable stomp at 5:59

11:18 tho
11:48 lol
13:39 that NIL instant drop bair

 

[KenMeister]

So who are the active big-name Ganon mains right now? I remember Eikelmann going on haitus, and hearing that BF got caught up in his career, is there anyone who's still actively going to regionals/nationals atm?

 

[F. Stein]

So, Ganon vs Falco and Peach. Super frustrated.

At my school we have weekly smash tournaments and we are all mid range skill level wanting to get better. I consistently place third or fourth. I go back and forth with a Samus that has helped me to learn ledge control and mix up my guarding. However, I can't place above the Falco and Peach mains. What are some general tips for getting better and/or learning to control these matchups when I don't have anyone to practice with? I love Ganon but... these high tiers just seem unbeatable sometimes and I don't want to switch to someone else.

 

[Wizard's Fist]

So... Long time lurker here who's been following this thread for at least a year, who finally decided to sign up because i've been in a bit of a slump with my Ganon.

Gotta say though, this has to be the best thread i've seen out of any melee character here, so much good stuff here... i've actually read this whole thread (and probably all of the older good threads on the Ganon boards)

I'm a decent Ganon main who's lacking lots of good experience with certain match-ups.. but has some tournament experience
Am rather new to the tournament scene, I play much better at home, lol
^^ mostly play against Falcon and Marth

i'll post again about my slump later when i've got a vid to show my gameplay (probably by next week).. I've been unable to win much at all lately, and while i have some ideas on where to improve in tech (mostly movement stuff like consistency with SH perfect wavelands in neutral and perfect wavelands back on stage from ledge), i feel like my neutral and decision making could use some polishing... i'm sure my punishes aren't optimal either
^ Let's come back to that when I've got vids though, you can all critique and demolish my Ganon then

I'm definitively no pro, but i've noticed a few things that i'm pretty sure haven't been talked about much before, and curious about how potentially helpful it might be for Ganon

-First, not sure how many of you play ver. 1.0, but that's the version i play with... The second hit on Ganon's Nair comes out much earlier (Frame 16-17 instead of 20-21) in that version, so i'm wondering how much testing has been done with it. In what situations is it better (or worse) than the regular Nair? I think that it might be worth looking into that

-Related to the first point, with regards to the Falcon matchup, i've read somewhere (in these threads) that Nair can actually beat out some of Falcons moves, and it's something i've had some success with, but checking these threads and vids, Nair is hardly ever talked about (or used) in that matchup. Is that because instant Uair (or Bair) is better in essentially every way? -> something i'd like some confirmation/testing on

-Again with the Falcon matchup.. Ganon's got free re-grabs on Falcon if he doesn't Di Ganon's throw right... Correct me if i'm wrong, but its free re-grab on Falcon if he DI's away on D-Throw and vice-versa on the U-throw (on Magus's chain grab thread)... This isn't anything new info, but has anyone really looked into an option select with D-Throw vs Falcon?(non-stop re-grabs if he DI's away, punish with W/E if he DI's in) How viable is this? Good way to optimize our punish games? (This is already being done to some extent with U-throw when there's platforms to cover DI away)

That's all i've got for now, but i hope at least one of these can help out lots

Oh yeah.. I've finally got shield dropping and (also running shield drops) pretty well down recently, but i'm having a hard time doing aerials out of it early enough.. are you guys finding it easier to do aerials out of shield drops with c-stick (it's what i'm doing at the moment, but not having much success)? or do some of you find it easier to do it manually? Also, i'd love to see some Ganon vids showing some good applications of shield dropping -> I don't care if is a popular vid and i've seen it already, I wasn't looking out of that stuff at all before because I assumed shield dropping was beyond me

 

[Diosama]

So who are the active big-name Ganon mains right now? I remember Eikelmann going on haitus, and hearing that BF got caught up in his career, is there anyone who's still actively going to regionals/nationals atm?

Kage is the man

So, Ganon vs Falco and Peach. Super frustrated.

At my school we have weekly smash tournaments and we are all mid range skill level wanting to get better. I consistently place third or fourth. I go back and forth with a Samus that has helped me to learn ledge control and mix up my guarding. However, I can't place above the Falco and Peach mains. What are some general tips for getting better and/or learning to control these matchups when I don't have anyone to practice with? I love Ganon but... these high tiers just seem unbeatable sometimes and I don't want to switch to someone else.

First and foremost, check out Ace's pinned thread about edgeguarding. I don't have much knowledge of Peach, but I can tell you that spacing is key. Be sure to abuse the **** out of dthrow > upsmash, works at like 60%. Try to catch turnips as often as you can. Another thread I would recommend you visit is Ganon VS, also pinned.

So... Long time lurker here who's been following this thread for at least a year, who finally decided to sign up because i've been in a bit of a slump with my Ganon.

Gotta say though, this has to be the best thread i've seen out of any melee character here, so much good stuff here... i've actually read this whole thread (and probably all of the older good threads on the Ganon boards)

I'm a decent Ganon main who's lacking lots of good experience with certain match-ups.. but has some tournament experience
Am rather new to the tournament scene, I play much better at home, lol
^^ mostly play against Falcon and Marth

i'll post again about my slump later when i've got a vid to show my gameplay (probably by next week).. I've been unable to win much at all lately, and while i have some ideas on where to improve in tech (mostly movement stuff like consistency with SH perfect wavelands in neutral and perfect wavelands back on stage from ledge), i feel like my neutral and decision making could use some polishing... i'm sure my punishes aren't optimal either
^ Let's come back to that when I've got vids though, you can all critique and demolish my Ganon then

I'm definitively no pro, but i've noticed a few things that i'm pretty sure haven't been talked about much before, and curious about how potentially helpful it might be for Ganon

-First, not sure how many of you play ver. 1.0, but that's the version i play with... The second hit on Ganon's Nair comes out much earlier (Frame 16-17 instead of 20-21) in that version, so i'm wondering how much testing has been done with it. In what situations is it better (or worse) than the regular Nair? I think that it might be worth looking into that

-Related to the first point, with regards to the Falcon matchup, i've read somewhere (in these threads) that Nair can actually beat out some of Falcons moves, and it's something i've had some success with, but checking these threads and vids, Nair is hardly ever talked about (or used) in that matchup. Is that because instant Uair (or Bair) is better in essentially every way? -> something i'd like some confirmation/testing on

-Again with the Falcon matchup.. Ganon's got free re-grabs on Falcon if he doesn't Di Ganon's throw right... Correct me if i'm wrong, but its free re-grab on Falcon if he DI's away on D-Throw and vice-versa on the U-throw (on Magus's chain grab thread)... This isn't anything new info, but has anyone really looked into an option select with D-Throw vs Falcon?(non-stop re-grabs if he DI's away, punish with W/E if he DI's in) How viable is this? Good way to optimize our punish games? (This is already being done to some extent with U-throw when there's platforms to cover DI away)

That's all i've got for now, but i hope at least one of these can help out lots

Oh yeah.. I've finally got shield dropping and (also running shield drops) pretty well down recently, but i'm having a hard time doing aerials out of it early enough.. are you guys finding it easier to do aerials out of shield drops with c-stick (it's what i'm doing at the moment, but not having much success)? or do some of you find it easier to do it manually? Also, i'd love to see some Ganon vids showing some good applications of shield dropping -> I don't care if is a popular vid and i've seen it already, I wasn't looking out of that stuff at all before because I assumed shield dropping was beyond me

Welcome friendo!

Nair vs Falcon is something that is rarely seen, as you pointed out, but I'd be interested in testing this out (I have 2 Falcon friends) seeing as it has good reach. However, I wouldn't use this move in the neutral game since you wanna stay ground based vs Falcon at the start.

Not sure myself about re-grabbing Falcon since there's usually not enough time for followups at low % from dthrow, except for jab which starts working a bit later. Uthrow does trap him well later on, so try re-grabbing once or twice until he starts DI'ing it, at that point, you should have a free tilt followup.

I'm also working on shield dropping and find c-stick easier, but it could just be a personal thing.

Great to have more people posting

 

[-ACE-]

You should look at grab punishes as option select situations whenever applicable.

Edit: I might make a video tomorrow to illustrate optimal grab punish setups.

ANYONE HAVING TROUBLE, POST VIDS.

If I can lean a smart phone against a soda can anyone can.

 

[Wizard's Fist]

sweet!! thanks

Guess i probably should clarify exactly what i was asking about a D-throw option select though.. assuming you're playing on FD, and you grab falcon, can you reliably D-throw regrab him on reaction while still punishing him if he DI's in? Assuming you can, how strong of a punish can you inflict on inwards DI? I sadly can't remember what the punishes are on Falcon on that DI)
^ if the punish on inwards DI is powerful enough (well, depends on the % range for this to work effectively) to cause an edge-guard situation, then is this something that i'd probably want to work on adding into my game

 

[-ACE-]

You can't regrab falcon if he DI's behind using dthrow. But uthrow you can. On FD it's always going to require some kind of read.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

You can start chaingrabbing falcon around 40. Dthrow works for DI forward, no DI, and slight DI behind. Uthrow works for DI behind, no DI, and slight DI forward. These work until around 70.

If they DI behind you on dthrow, I believe you can jab. Not sure if it works at all percents within the range and if it works for full DI behind.

The most important thing to remember you miss a regrab due to good DI is to retain control. Go for a safe tech chase like full hop bair and just make sure you are the one with the positional advantage when falcon techs.

On platforms, you should be able to force some situations where you can cover all options. Like being diagonally across facing a platform, for example. Uthrow there and you can cover everything.

 

[-ACE-]

Not making a video today. Versus tournament instead. Bring it prof.

 

[tm]

So who are the active big-name Ganon mains right now? I remember Eikelmann going on haitus, and hearing that BF got caught up in his career, is there anyone who's still actively going to regionals/nationals atm?

Kage, who had more or less not been traveling to anything prior to this year. He's shown up at several big events recently though.
Bizzarro Flame, who is becoming more inactive lately after becoming a lawyer.
Spider Sense just beat Blea Gelo and Porkchops to win some FL tourney but he almost never goes to out of state stuff.
No other active ganons are good IMO lol

So, Ganon vs Falco and Peach. Super frustrated.

At my school we have weekly smash tournaments and we are all mid range skill level wanting to get better. I consistently place third or fourth. I go back and forth with a Samus that has helped me to learn ledge control and mix up my guarding. However, I can't place above the Falco and Peach mains. What are some general tips for getting better and/or learning to control these matchups when I don't have anyone to practice with? I love Ganon but... these high tiers just seem unbeatable sometimes and I don't want to switch to someone else.

Here's what I do against characters I can't get real practice with:
1. Watch videos of good ganons in that matchup. Take notes on how they approach the matchup, what moves they use in neutral and when, how they punish, and how they DI each hit at what percent. Try to find out 'why' they are doing each of these things (99% of the time, there is a specific answer)
2. Practice your punish game on these characters in 20XX. Nailing the dthrow -> hit at every percent will pay off a thousandfold.
3. Travel to as many tournaments as possible to get more good experience, and play friendlies or MM people that play characters that you want to get better against as frequently as possible.

Remember at the end of the day, to be good you don't simply need to "know" all the answers; you need to know the game well enough that you are able to come up with them on your own.

-First, not sure how many of you play ver. 1.0, but that's the version i play with... The second hit on Ganon's Nair comes out much earlier (Frame 16-17 instead of 20-21) in that version, so i'm wondering how much testing has been done with it. In what situations is it better (or worse) than the regular Nair? I think that it might be worth looking into that

-Related to the first point, with regards to the Falcon matchup, i've read somewhere (in these threads) that Nair can actually beat out some of Falcons moves, and it's something i've had some success with, but checking these threads and vids, Nair is hardly ever talked about (or used) in that matchup. Is that because instant Uair (or Bair) is better in essentially every way? -> something i'd like some confirmation/testing on

-Again with the Falcon matchup.. Ganon's got free re-grabs on Falcon if he doesn't Di Ganon's throw right... Correct me if i'm wrong, but its free re-grab on Falcon if he DI's away on D-Throw and vice-versa on the U-throw (on Magus's chain grab thread)... This isn't anything new info, but has anyone really looked into an option select with D-Throw vs Falcon?(non-stop re-grabs if he DI's away, punish with W/E if he DI's in) How viable is this? Good way to optimize our punish games? (This is already being done to some extent with U-throw when there's platforms to cover DI away)

That's all i've got for now, but i hope at least one of these can help out lots

Oh yeah.. I've finally got shield dropping and (also running shield drops) pretty well down recently, but i'm having a hard time doing aerials out of it early enough.. are you guys finding it easier to do aerials out of shield drops with c-stick (it's what i'm doing at the moment, but not having much success)? or do some of you find it easier to do it manually? Also, i'd love to see some Ganon vids showing some good applications of shield dropping -> I don't care if is a popular vid and i've seen it already, I wasn't looking out of that stuff at all before because I assumed shield dropping was beyond me

90%+ of all setups at a tournament are going to be ver 1.02, so really messing around with 1.0 nair is not going to be worthwhile imo.

Instant uair is probably more reliable / an overall better tool for dealing with falcon stuff (as well as upward-angled ftilt). Can't say much as to people actually trying it out though, and it could definitely combo into fair under certain conditions which uair generally won't.

Yes if falcon DI's uthrow behind you, you can regrab him, and if he DIs dthrow in front of you, you can regrab him. These don't work at every percent though, and to my knowledge nobody has tested it before (maybe I'll do that sometime). Your proposed "dthrow option select" is a wonderful idea. I wonder what moves ganon can hit him with if he DI's dthrow behind... perhaps jab up until mid-high percent? If he lands before any of ganon's moves can hit him, you'll have to try tech-chasing him somehow.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Good post, tm.

So I found a potential edge guard setup / DI mixup (kills as DI mixup). At around 40% or so vs fox: stomp, follow their DI, charge up smash, hit with c0ck hitbox.

Extremely powerful move and if they're Di'ing the up smash "correctly," they'll DI it away. Once d*ck hitbox connects, instant kill. If they DI up and in, it probably won't kill, but it'll definitely set up for an edge guard. Potentially a kill move regardless of their DI if you stomp at ~60% and do it on a platform.

Time to experiment

 

[KenMeister]

Since I tend to usually stick with platform central stages, like BF and YS, if I were to ever to adapt to places like FD and DL, how do you guys break away from the platform heavy mentality, and the kind of movement options you mix up to get around stuff like projectiles and such? I felt like it's something I'd need to adapt so I can get used to the whole stage list just in case.

 

[-ACE-]

Got bopped by Cory's sheik in winners then had to leave early/forfeit. I took a game but played bad lol. Recorded.

You guys should be seeing more of linguini soon.

 

[Diosama]

Got bopped by Cory's sheik in winners then had to leave early/forfeit. I took a game but played bad lol. Recorded.

You guys should be seeing more of linguini soon.

MAMA MIA. More Linguini? When!!!

 

[-ACE-]

MAMA MIA. More Linguini? When!!!

Possibly now

twitch.tv/vsgc

Vids soon I'm sure

 

[Swagic]

So... Going through the thread, I found this BEAUTIFUL gem.

Kage: The Movie
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6hmeLhcrVGk

Pretty sure this isn't how Falco is supposed to be played, but it's SO amusing.

 

[-ACE-]

Damn Lord Linguinas almost had that. Lots of vids tomorrow

 

[Blea Gelo]

Kage, who had more or less not been traveling to anything prior to this year. He's shown up at several big events recently though.
Bizzarro Flame, who is becoming more inactive lately after becoming a lawyer.
Spider Sense just beat Blea Gelo and Porkchops to win some FL tourney but he almost never goes to out of state stuff.
No other active ganons are good IMO lol

Here's what I do against characters I can't get real practice with:
1. Watch videos of good ganons in that matchup. Take notes on how they approach the matchup, what moves they use in neutral and when, how they punish, and how they DI each hit at what percent. Try to find out 'why' they are doing each of these things (99% of the time, there is a specific answer)
2. Practice your punish game on these characters in 20XX. Nailing the dthrow -> hit at every percent will pay off a thousandfold.
3. Travel to as many tournaments as possible to get more good experience, and play friendlies or MM people that play characters that you want to get better against as frequently as possible.

Remember at the end of the day, to be good you don't simply need to "know" all the answers; you need to know the game well enough that you are able to come up with them on your own.

90%+ of all setups at a tournament are going to be ver 1.02, so really messing around with 1.0 nair is not going to be worthwhile imo.

Instant uair is probably more reliable / an overall better tool for dealing with falcon stuff (as well as upward-angled ftilt). Can't say much as to people actually trying it out though, and it could definitely combo into fair under certain conditions which uair generally won't.

Yes if falcon DI's uthrow behind you, you can regrab him, and if he DIs dthrow in front of you, you can regrab him. These don't work at every percent though, and to my knowledge nobody has tested it before (maybe I'll do that sometime). Your proposed "dthrow option select" is a wonderful idea. I wonder what moves ganon can hit him with if he DI's dthrow behind... perhaps jab up until mid-high percent? If he lands before any of ganon's moves can hit him, you'll have to try tech-chasing him somehow.

He did not beat me, but one match. He did beat porkchops tho

 

[Linguini]

lol blea lurking hard..go to the luigi thread u sp!c!

<333

 

[tm]

woops. Thought in the interview they said he beat you

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Those sets were sick. Especially the first one. Linguini having the nerve to go to pokemon, and clutching it with the sickest combo. Dthrow chaingrab to uthrow tech chase with dash dtilt into fair...dirty.

 

[-ACE-]

Those sets were sick. Especially the first one. Linguini having the nerve to go to pokemon, and clutching it with the sickest combo. Dthrow chaingrab to uthrow tech chase with dash dtilt into fair...dirty.

Seriously. That dtilt was insane. Top tier techchasing

 

[Diosama]

When will the sets be uploaded? And to what channel?

 

[-ACE-]

Versus Gaming on YouTube.

VSGC on twitch. My set with Cory is in the beginning and there's also a winners set of linguini vs porkchops

 

[F. Stein]

Wow... that dtilt was amazing :D Inspirational ^^

And thanks for the advice. I didn't do too bad on Sunday, came in third with Ganon. If anyone wants to mentor me and my adolescent ganon that would be great ;x I'm the only Ganon/Mario player at my school so you can see my sets just by scroll through these two recordings. These weren't all of my sets but these were from like semi-finals up in both winners and losers.

http://www.twitch.tv/tommyjkk/v/29656399

http://www.twitch.tv/tommyjkk/v/29634873

I'll be watching some more bizzaro flame and tipman stuff, I noticed that I'm really hesitant to edge guard in these sets. I guess i was just too afraid of getting gimped at the edge. And I'm having trouble teching anything Falco can do to me at the edge. Any tips for not just glazing over when I'm getting Dair - Shine combo'ed all over the place?

 

[PseudoTurtle]

I'm having trouble teching anything Falco can do to me at the edge. Any tips for not just glazing over when I'm getting Dair - Shine combo'ed all over the place?

Practice your SDI. You can basically just push R/L just after you push up-b because the window to tech is so big. After that, you wanna hug the wall and do a quarter circle during hitlag so get 2 inputs of SDI and one of ASDI. If you get the SDI correctly, you should get the tech every time.

So, it goes:

1) up-b and get the control stick completely horizontal, hugging the nearest wall
2) after you're about half way up to the wall, push R/L
3) time your quarter circle with falco's attack

Should get you a tech pretty often. Also, you can practice by placing motion sensor bombs near the ledge and trying to tech those. Basically the same motion.

Why teching is important:

example 1
example 2
example 3

 

[Divinokage]

So... Going through the thread, I found this BEAUTIFUL gem.

Kage: The Movie
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6hmeLhcrVGk

Pretty sure this isn't how Falco is supposed to be played, but it's SO amusing.

Lol omg, havent seen this in forever. My old style is funny, just stand there like a wall and not do much.

 

[DCW]

Reporting back from the monthly. I was double eliminated by a Marth named Player3. Both sets were 2-1. A friend who watched the matches said I was too aggressive and that I should be more patient in neutral.A little good news: when said Marth brought out his Falco, I beat him solidly. I also took one stock thanks to the Falco chaingrab. Not 0 to death, but something like 40 to death. Ended with downB! I'm getting 20XXTE soon, so I'll be able to record my matches and upload them for analysis.

90%+ of all setups at a tournament are going to be ver 1.02, so really messing around with 1.0 nair is not going to be worthwhile imo.

I've heard that if a TO agrees, you can bring your 1.0 disk to tournament and use it. Apparently some Samus players do this because it improves Samus' upB slightly. So it could be worth exploring, if you have 1.0. My brother wants to get 1.0 so that he can use Peach's frozen turnip glitch, so I may be playing that version rather than 1.02 soon.

you can practice by placing motion sensor bombs near the ledge and trying to tech those

Does it work to freeze Peach or Falco in their dsmash by the ledge in 20XX? I tried this with little success, but maybe I'm just bad at it right now.

Those sets were sick. Especially the first one. Linguini having the nerve to go to pokemon, and clutching it with the sickest combo. Dthrow chaingrab to uthrow tech chase with dash dtilt into fair...dirty.

What time in the archived Twitch video is this combo? I can't seem to find it.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

You kids and your 20XX. Idk about the falco dsmash freeze, burt if it is what it sounds like, then it should work.

Motion sensor bombs are the old school way

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Idk I saw it live

 

[X WaNtEd X]

You kids and your 20XX. Idk about the falco dsmash freeze, burt if it is what it sounds like, then it should work.

Motion sensor bombs are the old school way

Even though I have 20xx I just use motion bombs but with the save state function. Much easier than getting falco to repeat dsmash.

 

[Espi]

I wish the Fox board had a thread like this. Would actually go on smashboards more often.

 

[-ACE-]

I wish the Fox board had a thread like this. Would actually go on smashboards more often.

Sup young grasshopper. You're pretty good at this game!

 

[-ACE-]

Linguini vs Hungrypidgeon
http://youtu.be/1JNVmB2W9Xk

Ace vs Cory
http://youtu.be/9GuVVL9_Itk

Linguini vs porkchops WF
http://youtu.be/3_jF18YWdoQ

Linguini vs Prof LF
http://youtu.be/HNUpeZ6nGwc

Linguini vs porkchops GF
http://youtu.be/dW0Y5VeDMvA

 

[Bwmat]

I wish the Fox board had a thread like this. Would actually go on smashboards more often.

Only thread I visit.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Study time.

Only thing I wanted to say is...HOW COME ALL YOU GUYS GET TO TO PLAY SHEIKS THAT DON'T MASH OUT OF CHAINGRAB!? Almost every remotely decent Sheik player I play will immediately mash like their life depends on it if I as so pummel more than once or even once sometimes...smh

 

[X WaNtEd X]

One other thing. Why do you guys think Linguini is so good on pokemon and FD? Do you think he knows something about the way Ganon plays that we've been ignoring? It's hard to ignore the success he continues to have on stages that are traditionally considered trash for Ganon, especially vs. Falco.

 

[Swagic]

One other thing. Why do you guys think Linguini is so good on pokemon and FD? Do you think he knows something about the way Ganon plays that we've been ignoring? It's hard to ignore the success he continues to have on stages that are traditionally considered trash for Ganon, especially vs. Falco.

Probably something about the transformations on Pokemon. His wavedashes also seem longer than most (but that might just be me).

 

[Pyrostormer]

https://www.reddit.com/r/SSBM/comments/3x1ohl/ganons_invincible_ledge_options/

Just wanted to drop this by. Useful knowledge for anyone that doesnt know already.
N-air is a cool ledge trick but almost definitely useless, imo. I am curious if the ledgehop u-air regrab is possible if you actually hit an opponent?