Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[-ACE-]

Restating ducking under grab question.

Also, anybody got an archive of good Ganon vids for a new guy? I know Ace had said something about it about 5 years ago, but I have no idea if that archive still exists, if it did in the first place. So... Anybody got one? I could put one together over Christmas if need be...

Check threads made by spider sense for the only one ever made basically. The meta has changed so much. What might be better, for us, is a (voted on?) Top 50 Ganon videos of all time, plus a small section that had good Ganon play vs both common and rare characters so people can at least see some footage if they have problem with a matchup on a specific stage. The top 50 would and should get constantly updated, cause we should be getting better lol.

 

[-ACE-]

http://youtu.be/iaWs3X3oiVs

Oldie but goodie

 

[spider_sense]

Check threads made by spider sense for the only one ever made basically. The meta has changed so much. What might be better, for us, is a (voted on?) Top 50 Ganon videos of all time, plus a small section that had good Ganon play vs both common and rare characters so people can at least see some footage if they have problem with a matchup on a specific stage. The top 50 would and should get constantly updated, cause we should be getting better lol.

I'll be more than happy to revive that thread with newer vids.

 

[-ACE-]

Go for it bro, just report the post and put in the explanation box "please sticky" then update it whenever

 

[Diosama]

Like the rest of you, I'm disappointed that Ganon dropped 2 spots in Melee's newest tier list. However, I can't say I didn't expect this. His lack of proper representation obviously played a big part as well as Yoshi's awakening. I still strongly believe Ganon can climb higher since he has the necessary tools to make the top tiers look like fools. Unfortunately, theoretical does not equal practical, so it will take time to master CGs and proper defense against Sheik. We can go so much further still, after all, his meta is fairly underdevelopped. 2016 is 20GT baby, the year of Ganondorf.

 

[-ACE-]

Ganon can at least become better than all the mario's I feel. With proper representation.

 

[Diosama]

His mus against the Mario Bros. are already in his favor, which is nice. I personally think we need to shift the Puff, Peach and Falcon mus into our favor in order to gain more ground. A good place to start in regards to those would first be center stage control.

 

[KenMeister]

Ganon being ranked lower in the tier list only makes me want to rep him more and bring shame upon his prey.

 

[tm]

Anybody got a list of characters that can crouch under Ganon's grab? I know Puff and Sheik can, and after watching Kage play aMSa (Apex exhibition 2014, great set, Kage), it looked like Yoshi could too, and I'm guessing Pichu probably can. Any others, does anyone know?

Characters that can duck under ganon's grab

completely avoids:
Sheik, Puff, Ness, G&W, Kirby

almost always avoids:
Pikachu (avoids standing grab, gets hit by dash grab)
Pichu (avoid standing grab, -usually- gets hit by dash grab, closer = better)
yoshi (can get grabbed if your grab box dips to the top of his eyes while he's at the high point in his animation. Dash grab can hit if you aim for the eyes)

sometimes avoids (depending on spacing & the animation):
mario, doc, luigi, (these three depend entirely on which point in the animation you grab, they fluctuate up high enough to get hit by standing grab and low enough to dodge dash grab (just barely))
ICs (almost always get grabbed, but avoid it when they are facing away at certain spacings. Dash grab is always low enough)
Marth (same as ICs)
Roy (same as marth, except slightly smaller)
Fox (same thing except he's a bit bigger so it'll barely ever miss)

 

[-ACE-]

tm don't ever change mains

 

[Swagic]

Apparently there have been multiple video archives. I found four (well, sort of five). These are in order from newest at the top to oldest at the bottom.

http://smashboards.com/threads/the-...e-noob-3-are-up-linguini-spider_sense.284983/



http://smashboards.com/threads/the-new-ganondorf-video-archive-new-vids-from-spider-sense.264850/



http://smashboards.com/threads/ganondorf-video-archive-ver-3-0-7-new-vids-2-24-08.133574/



http://smashboards.com/threads/ganondorf-video-archive-ver-2-0-7-18-07.102396/ (has some from the original)

I'll just leave these all here, because the older videos might be more helpful for those trying to figure out where to start. LOTS of stuff here, not sure all the videos still exist, but bam, lots of archives.

EDIT: Would never have guessed Ness and Luigi with those ducking abilities. That will definitely be good info to have. So the easiest CGs can also duck under them.

 

[Linguini]

We'll see Locke. Only way I would come back in full force traveling oos again would be if I had super consistent training and I was on point with my game...which I'm not atm lol. It's possible but real life post college is kind of bodying me right now and there's a lot of stuff I'm trying to figure out that take priority over melee at this point. Hopefully I can get my life settled soon and actually train like the old days. I haven't played in 2 months but I'll be getting bodied by jason/tommy/Dave tommorow night, should be fun lol

 

[Blea Gelo]

The sfl ganon trio here. No wonder why you guys get so good ao fast

 

[-ACE-]

Is the plan to go to tommy's? I could be there around 5:15p, till 9:30.

@PaperstSoapCo spider_sense L Linguini

Blea Gelo just think if you came bro, you might actually get good at Ganon dittos

 

[X WaNtEd X]

I love how you guys use this thread to set up your plans.

Oh and about the tier list...don't worry about it. Ganon has been in a slump the last few years. But I truly believe there's going to be an awakening. It might take a few years, but I think it's going to happen.

 

[DCW]

I think so too!

I'm going to a monthly tomorrow, and I am anticipating having my usual trouble with space animals. Here's a match I played a few months ago at the same monthly against a solid Fox player ( the only video I've got recorded to share). I know my play is full of mistakes, but what would you recommend as the top one/two/three things I focus on improving tomorrow, in tournament and in friendlies? I'd appreciate your advice, since I know I need it. haha

I'll be in the mountains today, but I'll check back when I get home to see what you all think.

 

[Swagic]

I think so too!

I'm going to a monthly tomorrow, and I am anticipating having my usual trouble with space animals. Here's a match I played a few months ago at the same monthly against a solid Fox player ( the only video I've got recorded to share). I know my play is full of mistakes, but what would you recommend as the top one/two/three things I focus on improving tomorrow, in tournament and in friendlies? I'd appreciate your advice, since I know I need it. haha

I'll be in the mountains today, but I'll check back when I get home to see what you all think.

Most important thing- L cancels. You only missed a few, but a missed L cancel can pretty much end a stock, especially for Ganon. You probably already know that, though.

Other stuff- you were very grabby in the first match. It set up a lot of opportunities for fox to punish. And most of your OoS was shield grabbing. Switch it up a bit (I'm personally fond of the up B, but with fox, a backwards wavedash to jab or tilt is a bit better).
Speaking of tilts, don't forget to use them. They're important. Fantastic for spacing. The first match was almost completely devoid of them, the second you brought them back a bit, though mostly just down-angled. A CC down-tilt (if you can get it) will pop fox up for a good aerial chance, but you have to be quick.

Last few notes- don't get caught on platforms above fox. His up air is his primary kill move (unless he's a shiny ass), and his up smash is pretty devastating. Also, don't spend so much time in shield. In the second match, you moved around more than you shielded, and you almost won it. Do more of that and spend less time trapped in your shield.

Final thing- don't try to force ANYTHING against fox. Whiff and you're dead. If you have an opportunity, take it. If you don't, don't try to do something he can punish. Side-B doesn't have much range and is pretty predictable. Switch it up with a down-B every once in a while. Down is better for chasing rolls, side is forcing something to put him where you can give him some aerials.

Overall though, good set. You definitely know what you're doing, just need some more experience.

 

[-ACE-]

Lol yeah the more posts the better I say. The more activity this thread sees the more attention Ganon gets.

 

[KenMeister]

Yeah, I'll admit, I don't post here as much as I should, I primarily blame that on college and Smash 4 though. Looking to pick up some Melee again (albeit a bit more seriously) and my tech skill was alot more on-point than I thought it would be not touching the game as often as I used to, landing waveland JC grabs, wavelands in general, wavedashes for positioning and just general tech stuff in general consistently. Might start coming by here more often when I have questions.

 

[-ACE-]

Yeah, I'll admit, I don't post here as much as I should, I primarily blame that on college and Smash 4 though. Looking to pick up some Melee again (albeit a bit more seriously) and my tech skill was alot more on-point than I thought it would be not touching the game as often as I used to, landing waveland JC grabs, wavelands in general, wavedashes for positioning and just general tech stuff in general consistently. Might start coming by here more often when I have questions.

Do it bro. There are so many intelligent Ganon mains here that really know melee. It's just a battle of consistency so you can handle the harder matchups.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

what would you recommend as the top one/two/three things I focus on improving tomorrow, in tournament and in friendlies? I'd appreciate your advice, since I know I need it. haha

Grabs. My grab game was really ****ty just a few months ago, but after constantly and consciously working on grab setups etc, I think my grab game is one of my top skills, especially against space animals. Unfortunately, working on grab game takes more than a couple days, which it sounds to me is all you have, but these are a few things you can probably implement in a couple of hours of friendlies before the tournament.

Easy grab setups:
1) Tomahawk. This one is so easy, yet so effective. Let's say you hit his shield - remember this situation because I can guarantee you that the next time it occurs, they will put shield up again. It looks kinda silly with ganon, but it works. Usually requires a read, but sometimes you can do it on reaction if you catch yourself before throwing out an aerial when you don't need to.

2) CC --> grab. You actually got one of these on a waveshine, which is really impressive. That's hard to do. But at low %, CCing the weak hit of nair (or even strong hit at certain spacings) will get you a grab. Try to take note of what sort of aerial he's throwing out though because you do NOT want to CC a drill. Getting hit with drill while you're crouching can mean death.

Intermediate grab setups:
1) waveland tomahawk grab. Bizzarro Flame and Renth love to do this. You jump as if you're going to bair, cross them up, and grab. It's so fast they don't know what hit them. Similar to tomahawk, just with a different spacing. Example.

Advanced grab setups:
1) SDI drill --> grab out of shine. Self-explanatory. If you SDI fox's drill, a lot of the time, you'll get a free grab because they'll shine, even when you're out of range. It's just a habit to them. Anyway, if they do that long drill (usually happens from the ledge), you only need to do one input of SDI and then just hold away and you'll get it. Normally, you need 2 inputs (I use control stick and c-stick) for it, and it works.

2) Shield DI --> grab out of shine. Literally the exact same thing, only in your shield. Same thing applies with the long drill etc too.

 

[tm]

Apparently there have been multiple video archives. I found four (well, sort of five). These are in order from newest at the top to oldest at the bottom.

http://smashboards.com/threads/the-...e-noob-3-are-up-linguini-spider_sense.284983/



http://smashboards.com/threads/the-new-ganondorf-video-archive-new-vids-from-spider-sense.264850/



http://smashboards.com/threads/ganondorf-video-archive-ver-3-0-7-new-vids-2-24-08.133574/



http://smashboards.com/threads/ganondorf-video-archive-ver-2-0-7-18-07.102396/ (has some from the original)

I'll just leave these all here, because the older videos might be more helpful for those trying to figure out where to start. LOTS of stuff here, not sure all the videos still exist, but bam, lots of archives.

EDIT: Would never have guessed Ness and Luigi with those ducking abilities. That will definitely be good info to have. So the easiest CGs can also duck under them.

Wow I've never seen any of these. We should actually have one that we update lol. Could sort by MU, then year (recent first, def wanna see more 2014/2015 stuff than anything else), then player.

tm don't ever change mains

That list only took like 8 minutes to test and make lol

Grabs. My grab game was really ****ty just a few months ago, but after constantly and consciously working on grab setups etc, I think my grab game is one of my top skills, especially against space animals. Unfortunately, working on grab game takes more than a couple days, which it sounds to me is all you have, but these are a few things you can probably implement in a couple of hours of friendlies before the tournament.

Easy grab setups:
1) Tomahawk. This one is so easy, yet so effective. Let's say you hit his shield - remember this situation because I can guarantee you that the next time it occurs, they will put shield up again. It looks kinda silly with ganon, but it works. Usually requires a read, but sometimes you can do it on reaction if you catch yourself before throwing out an aerial when you don't need to.

2) CC --> grab. You actually got one of these on a waveshine, which is really impressive. That's hard to do. But at low %, CCing the weak hit of nair (or even strong hit at certain spacings) will get you a grab. Try to take note of what sort of aerial he's throwing out though because you do NOT want to CC a drill. Getting hit with drill while you're crouching can mean death.

Intermediate grab setups:
1) waveland tomahawk grab. Bizzarro Flame and Renth love to do this. You jump as if you're going to bair, cross them up, and grab. It's so fast they don't know what hit them. Similar to tomahawk, just with a different spacing. Example.

Advanced grab setups:
1) SDI drill --> grab out of shine. Self-explanatory. If you SDI fox's drill, a lot of the time, you'll get a free grab because they'll shine, even when you're out of range. It's just a habit to them. Anyway, if they do that long drill (usually happens from the ledge), you only need to do one input of SDI and then just hold away and you'll get it. Normally, you need 2 inputs (I use control stick and c-stick) for it, and it works.

2) Shield DI --> grab out of shine. Literally the exact same thing, only in your shield. Same thing applies with the long drill etc too.

This stuff is huge IMO. One of the big differences between my (and many mid-level ganons') play and the best.

 

[-ACE-]

I like the perfect wL into grab

http://youtu.be/sJviVpv2sH8?t=7s

I was trying to do that here, but with a turnaround grab. Whiffed the input for turnaround.

 

[Swagic]

Wow I've never seen any of these. We should actually have one that we update lol. Could sort by MU, then year (recent first, def wanna see more 2014/2015 stuff than anything else), then player.

I've been considering doing this over Christmas break by scouring the tubes of the you for some good matches, but seeing as I'm pretty new, I have no clue what I'm looking for as far as more recent matches go. If someone was willing to point me in the right direction, I could do that.

 

[Diosama]

I like the perfect wL into grab

http://youtu.be/sJviVpv2sH8?t=7s

I was trying to do that here, but with a turnaround grab. Whiffed the input for turnaround.

Geez dude, that was a rough set. You were looking so good game 1, but yo spaghetti fell outta yo pocket. Wasn't too many stomp > grabs happening, but edgeguarding was on point as well as solid platform tech-chasing, plus you weren't ever stuck in neutral for too long, for better or for worse. Just an off-night? Or does Sheik tilt you that much lol

 

[-ACE-]

No, I have a few bad habits in neutral I'm working on, and it's easier to minimize them on smaller stages. The mistakes I made on DL64 were obvious, missed cg, SD, noobish dj after being hit, a few sub-par decisions. Game 3 just ended unfortunately lol. Good sheiks can be frustrating tho, trust me.

 

[KenMeister]

My favorite grab reads are usually from facing away from an opponent, and jumping into a position where I usually bair, but instead I perfect waveland into an opponent and pivot JC grab. Throws off alot of people.

 

[Swagic]

Question time-
If you dtilt fox/falco as they're trying to sweetspot the ledge with the shine, will they get their jump back? I'm assuming no, but sometimes it looks like they get hit after they grab the ledge.

Also, if you dtilt them as they land on the stage, but at the very edge, before the end of the phantasm/illusion animation, do they get their jump back?

 

[Diosama]

Who cares, just jab, run off fair lol

 

[DCW]

Most important thing- L cancels. You only missed a few, but a missed L cancel can pretty much end a stock, especially for Ganon. You probably already know that, though.

Other stuff- you were very grabby in the first match. It set up a lot of opportunities for fox to punish. And most of your OoS was shield grabbing. Switch it up a bit (I'm personally fond of the up B, but with fox, a backwards wavedash to jab or tilt is a bit better).
Speaking of tilts, don't forget to use them. They're important. Fantastic for spacing. The first match was almost completely devoid of them, the second you brought them back a bit, though mostly just down-angled. A CC down-tilt (if you can get it) will pop fox up for a good aerial chance, but you have to be quick.

Last few notes- don't get caught on platforms above fox. His up air is his primary kill move (unless he's a shiny ***), and his up smash is pretty devastating. Also, don't spend so much time in shield. In the second match, you moved around more than you shielded, and you almost won it. Do more of that and spend less time trapped in your shield.

Final thing- don't try to force ANYTHING against fox. Whiff and you're dead. If you have an opportunity, take it. If you don't, don't try to do something he can punish. Side-B doesn't have much range and is pretty predictable. Switch it up with a down-B every once in a while. Down is better for chasing rolls, side is forcing something to put him where you can give him some aerials.

Overall though, good set. You definitely know what you're doing, just need some more experience.

Thank you, Swagic . You make a lot of good points. To summarize (for my own sake):
-Get all l-cancels
-mix up OOS options (upB, wd back jab/tilt)
-Use tilts more for spacing
-Don't let Fox get right below me
-DON'T WHIFF

Grabs. My grab game was really ****ty just a few months ago, but after constantly and consciously working on grab setups etc, I think my grab game is one of my top skills, especially against space animals. Unfortunately, working on grab game takes more than a couple days, which it sounds to me is all you have, but these are a few things you can probably implement in a couple of hours of friendlies before the tournament.

Easy grab setups:
1) Tomahawk. This one is so easy, yet so effective. Let's say you hit his shield - remember this situation because I can guarantee you that the next time it occurs, they will put shield up again. It looks kinda silly with ganon, but it works. Usually requires a read, but sometimes you can do it on reaction if you catch yourself before throwing out an aerial when you don't need to.

2) CC --> grab. You actually got one of these on a waveshine, which is really impressive. That's hard to do. But at low %, CCing the weak hit of nair (or even strong hit at certain spacings) will get you a grab. Try to take note of what sort of aerial he's throwing out though because you do NOT want to CC a drill. Getting hit with drill while you're crouching can mean death.

Intermediate grab setups:
1) waveland tomahawk grab. Bizzarro Flame and Renth love to do this. You jump as if you're going to bair, cross them up, and grab. It's so fast they don't know what hit them. Similar to tomahawk, just with a different spacing. Example.

Advanced grab setups:
1) SDI drill --> grab out of shine. Self-explanatory. If you SDI fox's drill, a lot of the time, you'll get a free grab because they'll shine, even when you're out of range. It's just a habit to them. Anyway, if they do that long drill (usually happens from the ledge), you only need to do one input of SDI and then just hold away and you'll get it. Normally, you need 2 inputs (I use control stick and c-stick) for it, and it works.

2) Shield DI --> grab out of shine. Literally the exact same thing, only in your shield. Same thing applies with the long drill etc too.

Thanks, PseudoTurtle ! I'll focus on tomahawk grab and CC grab tomorrow. I'll report back with how everything went.

 

[mesa23]

Any general advice and tips on Ganon vs peach?

 

[Diosama]

Tournament winner > up air for edgeguarding

Dthrow > upsmash works around 60%

Do your best to stay on stage, cuz once you're off you almost can't come back

Those a re a few off the top of my head, don't have a lot of peach mu knowledge

 

[Swagic]

Any general advice and tips on Ganon vs peach?

I personally am a fan of the Up B in this matchup, but I play like a level 9 CPU, so...

Don't get down smashed, catch the turnips.

 

[tm]

Question time-
If you dtilt fox/falco as they're trying to sweetspot the ledge with the shine, will they get their jump back? I'm assuming no, but sometimes it looks like they get hit after they grab the ledge.

Also, if you dtilt them as they land on the stage, but at the very edge, before the end of the phantasm/illusion animation, do they get their jump back?

No. If they grab ledge they would get intangibility and your dtilt would not hit them.

Any general advice and tips on Ganon vs peach?

We had a string of good posts a while back but I don't really know where they were or what was said / how to find them. Paging -ACE-
Everyone bug Ian to write a MU guide

 

[-ACE-]

Any general advice and tips on Ganon vs peach?

Are you seriously picking up Ganon mesa??? Please say so.

Superspright made a big peach post on page 576 as a critique on one of Locke's sets. We talk about the matchup kind of often. The core principle of the MU is spacing, more so than most other MUs. You have to know exactly how much respect to give her. Grabs are huge.

With turnips, lately my go to is mid air catch, dj and immediately throw the turnip down, into falling aerial (they often expect this), fastfall land tomahawk, ff wL, or ff land jab/ftilt.

 

[spider_sense]

Are you seriously picking up Ganon mesa??? Please say so.

Superspright made a big peach post on page 576 as a critique on one of Locke's sets. We talk about the matchup kind of often. The core principle of the MU is spacing, more so than most other MUs. You have to know exactly how much respect to give her. Grabs are huge.

With turnips, lately my go to is mid air catch, dj and immediately throw the turnip down, into falling aerial (they often expect this), fastfall land tomahawk, ff wL, or ff land jab/ftilt.

<_< I feel like Mesa is trolling; and I also believe he's following in my footsteps by having all these secondaries.

 

[-ACE-]

Dittos with spider_sense today, I'll record some.

 

[-ACE-]

http://youtu.be/ab009ITuYJs

Drinks were abundant, lol. Friendly dittos.

 

[mesa23]

I'm trying to get gud with more of my secondaries and Ganon is one of the more fun ones.

I'll definitely check out that page Dave, thanks breh

 

[PseudoTurtle]

http://youtu.be/ab009ITuYJs

Drinks were abundant, lol. Friendly dittos.

You guys are ****ing trolls

edit: ****ING SICK untechable stomp at 5:59