Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

-ACE-

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Well when a Marth at that level comes my way during practice i'll let you know. No one has a high level Marth here. As for the instant uair OOS, a lot of times it wont work because the Marth is spaced correctly with a FF fair. I'm forced to improvise matchups when I fight someone really good.
Just marth killer more like you said and it'll be a big improvement. Also, when you use side-b, try to punish fairs/nairs while he's sitill airborne so he can't CC/ASDI (early aerials are common in neutral). The timing window is tight but it's a great way to start a death combo off a very small mistake for marth.
 
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-ACE-

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Triple post because infractions and me are like Popeye and spinach.

Plus this needs to be said.

THE WORLD. NEEDS. A ****ING SPIDER SENSE COMBO VIDEO.

ONE THAT'S DOPE AF.

That is all.


Edit, reposting links for this page

spider_sense vs Blea Gelo GF
http://youtu.be/Wf820cjPwSE

Lord spider_sense vs Porkchops LF
http://youtu.be/6vxl2VRrKBA

spider_sense vs hungrypidgeon (peach)
http://youtu.be/NZzrIWycb3Y

spider_sense vs porkchops WR5
http://youtu.be/2siCtHFFcxo

spider_sense vs Shamunt (sheik)
http://youtu.be/LOZ7jfLn2J0

spider_sense vs Hoodmelon (peach)
http://youtu.be/OHBz8YJkGBY




http://youtu.be/2siCtHFFcxo
@spider_sense at 2:51 regrab that ****! Uthrow trap him again! 2 pummels + uthrow + uair leads to a much easier edgeguard opportunity than does the ftilt.
 
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X WaNtEd X

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PSA: Frame-perfect and space-perfect falcon uthrow knee is inescapable for us from 58% and higher (damage after the throw)

edit:
I tested some other stuff and came up with ganon's decent DI / tech / defensive options after falcon gets a grab at any %, but I'm not sure I want to make this info public lol.
How did you test that stuff? I've thought about doing it, but I'm not sure the methods I was thinking of for testing would be the most optimal.
 

RedmanSSBM

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Well when a Marth at that level comes my way during practice i'll let you know. No one has a high level Marth here. As for the instant uair OOS, a lot of times it wont work because the Marth is spaced correctly with a FF fair. I'm forced to improvise matchups when I fight someone really good.
So are you implying that you need to play a high level marth regularly in order to learn how to edgeguard Marth correctly? Well you're not totally wrong, but there are other ways to practice the motions by yourself without needing another high level Marth to practice against. You can even set a Marth cpu on a stage and just practice hitting your upairs and ledgehop upairs and whatnot. If you practice all of this stuff on your own, the next time you play vs a Marth, whether it be for practice or for tournament, you'll be a bit more ready for those situations. You don't even have to be hitting anything. You could just practice grabbing the ledge from a wavedash over and over and over again until you're comfortable or practice doing the ledge-drop upairs and recovering so that you get comfortable with doing them. Marth Killers are helpful too, and you can even practice those by yourself.

Edgeguarding is not something that needs to be "improvised." It is something that should be straight forward and easy to execute if you have practiced it enough times, especially when it comes to Marth, since his recovery is so linear. It's as simple as practicing it on your own and then actually doing it in a match. You don't even need to practice it against a high level Marth either. Honestly any Marth that knows how to recover even decently will suffice. You can study videos of other Ganons too that know how to edgeguard Marth, such as Eikelmann and I think even Spider Sense (don't remember the last time he played a Marth though).
 
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tm

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How did you test that stuff? I've thought about doing it, but I'm not sure the methods I was thinking of for testing would be the most optimal.
Well usually I go into 20XX in develop mode, get the victim to the right %, and just perform the frame perfect inputs for each character using Z to frame advance. In this case it was a bit more complicated because the amount falcon needs to drift is slightly different, so I simplified it. Since ganon is so big I made the assumption that regardless of DI, falcon will be able to reach ganon after the uthrow with some combination of jump / dash jump / turnaround dash jump + SH / FH + instant knee. Additionally, even when ganon can be out of stun before the knee hits, he might not have any way to avoid it. Airdodge doesn't give intangibility until frame 4, and you need to smash out of tumble or double jump out of tumble for at least 1 frame before you can input that. So even if you're out of stun for 4 frames before the knee 'hits', he still can't avoid it. Similarly, double jump simply does not move fast enough to avoid the knee if it is spaced well. So I took the maximum amount of frames that it would take falcon to dash + jump + knee, subtracted 4 from that, then tested at which %s falcon is actionable for that long before ganon gets out of hitstun. I might have been off by a frame due to counting mistakes, which would result in a few % higher.

For dthrow follow ups, first I tested at which %s ganon can smash / jump out of tumble before hitting the ground for DI in, no DI, and DI away (In this case the DI in is more like halfway between 0 degrees in and 45 degrees up and in. Same idea for DI away). Then I chose what I considered to be the most 'optimal' choices for falcon to cover each of those options, and what I presume to be the most common choices for falcons to take in those situations, and tested when they work. Actually I'm not done with these yet because at this point it's less helpful than time consuming.

Also if you're testing from a higher port than your opponent, your throws have +1 frame stun. I pick port 4 lol.
Yes, that's a very good point. All of my testing was with falcon on P1 and ganon on P2. So this is best case lol. I always pick port 4 for this reason as well.
 

tm

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It all depeds on the knockback angle. Falcon's dthrow (facing right) sends the opponent somewhere between 45 degrees away (diagonally up and away) and 90 degrees away (straight up). The angle is closer to the midpoint between those two notches than it is to either of the notches themselves (at least according to my testing). In that case I equate "DI away" and "DI in" to 90 degrees away from the knockback angle, the one angle of the 16 most basic divisions that yields the most influence on the knockback angle.

Edit: if any hit sends 45 degrees up and away (uair & bair for example) then by "DI away" I would mean 45 degrees down + away on the stick.
 
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tm

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I usually say NNE / SE / WSW / whatever and assume the attack is directed to the right. But I thought that would confuse people lol
 

PseudoTurtle

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@spider_sense vs peach, try tournament winner to edge guard her. If she's floating at that height where you can't get her with a double jump, tournament winner is a great way to catch her off guard. Linguini said that one, I think.

Also, DI her dthrow behind her. Took me forever to figure that one out, but she won't be able to hit you with that dthrow --> nair combo. Now, he could've been just doing a DI mixup and you were DI'ing for the back throw and I'm misreading the situation lol. Either way, just thought I'd mention it.

Blea making that matchup look in Luigi's favor lololololol
 

-ACE-

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Last night's VS tourney. For those curious, I have actually made sure the bracket was rigged so that I had to play prof in round 2 if winners the past 2 tournaments. This may be the first time in history a Ganon has requested specifically to play the top sheik in his region in tournament round 2 lmao. Next week, it's happening again. If I can't beat him, I don't deserve the extra steam time/higher placing. I'll get his ***.

Ace vs Prof (sheik)
http://youtu.be/sJviVpv2sH8

Tipman vs Porkchops (falco)
http://youtu.be/nEKv6J5YlYs

Tipman vs Prof (sheik, marth)
http://youtu.be/oSCRkmZ0uks


Edit: LOL

SFL has good Ganons.... "and Ace isn't horrible"
"Tipman is significantly better"

-commentator that knows close to nothing about Ganon lmao. "Why would anyone take sheik to battlefield?" I dunno dawg, maybe because I won on FoD and he ****ing banned YS? Maybe BF is tied for Ganon's best stage? Lol I want to MM dis kid.
 
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Divinokage

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So are you implying that you need to play a high level marth regularly in order to learn how to edgeguard Marth correctly? Well you're not totally wrong, but there are other ways to practice the motions by yourself without needing another high level Marth to practice against. You can even set a Marth cpu on a stage and just practice hitting your upairs and ledgehop upairs and whatnot. If you practice all of this stuff on your own, the next time you play vs a Marth, whether it be for practice or for tournament, you'll be a bit more ready for those situations. You don't even have to be hitting anything. You could just practice grabbing the ledge from a wavedash over and over and over again until you're comfortable or practice doing the ledge-drop upairs and recovering so that you get comfortable with doing them. Marth Killers are helpful too, and you can even practice those by yourself.

Edgeguarding is not something that needs to be "improvised." It is something that should be straight forward and easy to execute if you have practiced it enough times, especially when it comes to Marth, since his recovery is so linear. It's as simple as practicing it on your own and then actually doing it in a match. You don't even need to practice it against a high level Marth either. Honestly any Marth that knows how to recover even decently will suffice. You can study videos of other Ganons too that know how to edgeguard Marth, such as Eikelmann and I think even Spider Sense (don't remember the last time he played a Marth though).
Doesn't that kinda dismiss who I am as a person? I'm a grinder, so I need to see the situation and practice that situation a lot before its something i can do consistently. Also The Moon prevented me going to the ledge pretty often, he didn't make it very obvious where he was going to. Whenever I played a good Marth, they make their recoveries pretty ambiguous. Anyways the Marth killer and the ledgedrop uair isnt something i can practice on my own because you literally have to press a couple of buttons to set it up, it's not hard to do but it's hard to read the proper edgeguard. You really think edgeguarding someone with Ganon is that easy? Why don't you show me how it's done then?

At the moment Vwins is busy a lot with studies so im the best practice i can get. Usually the only matchup i can train atm would be Sheik, Fox, Peach maybe Falcon. Everyone is lower level here but ill do something about that hopefully..
 
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-ACE-

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Kage I'm with Locke. This is easy bro. You're dealing with a mental block or something. Moon didn't stop you from covering edge all that much. That tournament was yours for the taking, your DI and edgeguarding just took a **** in GF's. Don't worry about it. Marth killer when they can't jump, when they CAN jump, fake the Marth killer for half a second then sh ff bair him. Don't space the tipman according to the ledge, space it according to marth. He's up-b'ing short and drifting in to grab the ledge. Marth killer covers this unless he up-b's high and away and drifts in.. Stomp marth when it's good too, you're great at that.
 
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Divinokage

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Kage I'm with Locke. This is easy bro. You're dealing with a mental block or something. Moon didn't stop you from covering edge all that much. That tournament was yours for the taking, your DI and edgeguarding just took a **** in GF's. Don't worry about it. Marth killer when they can't jump, when they CAN jump, fake the Marth killer for half a second then sh ff bair him. Don't space the tipman according to the ledge, space it according to marth. He's up-b'ing short and drifting in to grab the ledge. Marth killer covers this unless he up-b's high and away and drifts in.. Stomp marth when it's good too, you're great at that.
Alright then, Ill make note of it when i face Marths next time.
 

RedmanSSBM

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Well I was going to get the footage of me vs GATO at TFC this year since I beat him on stream there, but apparently PB&J didn't locally record any of the pools matches and he only uploaded Top 16 to Youtube. It's definitely not on Twitch anymore so that's GG I guess.

There were some edgeguards in there that I did that I wanted to point out. I did a ledge-drop upair that ended up trading stocks cause I messed up the timing a bit and died, but Marth was definitely dead after that.

Actually now that I took a bit of time to search, there is no good footage of me vs Marth on Youtube at all. Any time I did well vs a Marth the footage either didn't get uploaded or the framerate was horrible. ****ing LOL Thank God replays are a thing now with 20XXTE.
 

X WaNtEd X

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There are some angles Marth recovers at where ledgedrop uair will miss unless you drift inward or outward when you do it.

Marth killer works if you read Marth will sweet spot or up-b at a trajectory where he can't drift onto stage. When you Marth killer but Marth barely goes onto stage while you grab ledge, you probably will not hit the edgeguard. Unfortunately, ganon isn't falcon and just knee in a situation like that. Your options to maintain control in this situation are limited.

You could lh uair, but that will just send Marth to the other side of the stage. You'll have center stage, but the edgeguard will be over. It will only kill or put Marth off stage at really high percents.

Lh fair would kill at really high percents. But if it doesn't, you won't be able to continue the edgeguard because you have to recover after and then go all way across the stage.

The best option is lh grab, but even this is limited. If you dthrow facing center stage, Marth is just going to DI away and all you'll do is uair. That's better than lh uair, but not by much. You'll want to get the grab facing offstage because if Marth DIs toward center stage you can bair instead of uair.

I've also thought about maybe lh pivot ftilt/dtilt here, but I don't know if it's possible. Regardless, my point is that Marth can actually make edgeguarding pretty hard, even if you are incorporating ledge drops and Marth killer. I think lh uair regrab is the real solution to simplify the edgeguard. I still need to test it out more in games, but I think it is possible to use it to cover all recovery options when Marth is recovering mid height and low, which is almost always what is happening.
 

Swagic

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Okay, completely unrelated to asking how to gimp the **** out of Marth.

Noob here (well, lurker, but that's beside the point) and wondering about a possible OoS option. I did some searching and I'm in the process of reading this entire thread (on page 32 of 586... 6 years is a long time) and I haven't seen anything, so-

How is a SH to Up-B as an OoS? The SH gives the extra teleportation distance on the grab, just for a little mindfvck. I can't imagine it would be terribly useful unless both people were having shield competitions, but I've used it a few times on some of the lower-tier players around me and it seems to be pretty quick. Use control stick for both jump and Up B, but there's a tiny window where if you screw it up you accidentally Ganon punch.

Also, Up throw onto a platform is untechable, so what would be the most recommended followup (just in general)?
 

-ACE-

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Usually you aren't using marth killer until they're above medium percent, fair is often viable because of his typical percent while being edgeguarded.

Edit:

Marth is one of those midweight or lighter + slightly above average fallspeed or floatier characters that you can hit with f-air after d-throw regardless of how they DI it (Peach is another char it's great against). Works at like 80+ for when they DI behind though you gotta be quick at that percent to keep him from falling too low. It's also great for when they're above like 130ish and b-airs will start to not reach him when they DI full behind. Also, d-throw u-smash when they don't DI or DI away.
Gotta know how many pummels you can get. At this typical percent range 2 would most likely be given. Good mashers are no better than level 9's. If you're familiar with how many pummels you can get on a level 9, you'll know how many more you can get once you hear him start mashing.
 
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Bwmat

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-ACE-

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Vs DK... Pressure as hard as possible. You know he only has bair, uair, dtilt, ftilt. But with bair being best he'll almost always be looking for that, as well as yolo'ing up-b after they L-cancel it on your shield. Don't let his dd fool you, you have to respect it some. When he's offstage, stomp his *** as quickly and aggressively as possible. Avoid grabs and uair like the plague. With Falcon you can probably just make it rain stomps and knees lol.

With Espi, I think you just need to play him more and get more accustomed to aggressive foxes. Good practice for you. Isn't he new to melee kinda? He's good
 
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PseudoTurtle

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Vs DK, one thing: up air. Your up air comes out faster than his bair, so when he's doing that silly spaced bair spam gimmick, just up air it. Up air is safe and effective. If you definitely have a read and are feeling like taking a little more risk, side-b should space you back far enough to retaliate instantly. You could also CC the bair --> jab --> dtilt --> grab (grab only works at low % with poor DI, but it's legit).

Stomp is probably the best edge guard you can get, as ace said. Even if your opponent is a god at meteor cancelling, nobody is good enough to effectively do so as DK lolol.

Don't get grabbed, SDI up airs off stage (yes, off stage) - keep your double jump and there's not too much DK can do to you that isn't a gimmick.

Also, and this is pretty important, try not to attack his shield with an aerial because up-b OOS wrecks ganon (tilts are fine). If you're going to, though, you need to attack the front of his shield because the hitbox is in the back when he uses up-b.

I played with the best DK in the midwest for a year or so, so I know the matchup pretty well. Still need to watch the videos, but the information above is good.
 

Bwmat

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I have a really hard time edge guarding his dk due to how much control he has over drifting into the ledge and slapping me with the spinny arms, it feels like you really need to commit and go offstage to get it reliably, but I'm scared of doing that since he edge guards so well.

Funny thing is that I used to main dk, so I know all these tricks but they work on me still lol
 
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Swagic

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When spacing Marth or Peach or Puff or someone like that, how viable is Up B? I know, level 9 tactics. But in that frame 14 stupidly large range, is that a teleport? Or will Ganon get hurt in that frame? If it's a teleport, it could be a decent counter for Peach's down smash.
 

Diosama

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When spacing Marth or Peach or Puff or someone like that, how viable is Up B? I know, level 9 tactics. But in that frame 14 stupidly large range, is that a teleport? Or will Ganon get hurt in that frame? If it's a teleport, it could be a decent counter for Peach's down smash.
Up b oos is fine. It's more of a gtfo me move, ironically, rather than a punish, so you won't get any good followups and will just end up resetting to neutral
 

Diosama

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In regards to Marth and edgeguarding, what about the opposite situation? I'd say Ganon is pretty ****ed once he's offstage against Marth. Up airs work well if you have your 2nd jump and his hurtbox is on the ledge, so you can hit him instantly with that to stop his neutral b charge or fsmash. Real problem is once you gotta up b #rip
 
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