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Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

Duel

Duel

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167
I have begun CG'ing spacies and I've got to say it is so damn satisfying even if it doesn't pan out. Get that filthy regrab, follow it up with an up throw and a bair to catch them with the wrong DI. Golden.
 
D

DCW

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20-90%'ed my brother's Fox today. (He knows the chaingrab, but he just didn't DI behind in time after the first throw to avoid the regrab.)

Duel Duel I agree it's satisfying. When you chaingrab Fox is the only time he is truly powerless. Imposing that powerlessness on the most powerful character in the game is very satisfying.
 
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DCW

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X WaNtEd X said:
I understand the comparison, but I think it's worth mentioning that reactively tech chasing with Sheik is easier.
Click to expand...
It's interesting to compare the two. You have to act on frame 18 to cover tech in place against spacies as Sheik (according to DruggedFox), vs. frame 15 or 16 to regrab spacies as Ganon (according to tm tm ), so that's a 2-3 frame difference. But that 2-3 frame difference is only when the spacies are at the lowest possible damage. Unlike tech in place time, the reaction time for regrab grows higher with their percent damage, so at some point it becomes easier to regrab than to cover tech in place. However, it's "easy" for Sheik to react to the other tech options (missed tech, techroll) because their animation last much longer than tech in place, whereas all the different DIs after a throw by Ganon could all have narrow reaction windows for Ganon to grab. So overall the chaingrab is probably harder.

Anyway, having frame data would settle all these questions. Specifically, we need the frame reaction window for each DI at each percent damage for both Fox and Falco. That's a daunting task...if no one else does it before me (hint hint!) I might try to gather some data over the holiday.
 
-ACE-

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
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You get less of an initial visual cue to base your decision off of when it comes to Ganon (namely partial behind DI vs full behind). I think the getup/tech animations are slightly easier to distinguish between, which aids in ease of decision making and reacting.
 
X WaNtEd X

X WaNtEd X

Smash Lord
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So to anyone that has trouble edgeguarding marth: learn how to lh uair regrab. Now that I can do it, edgeguarding marth is dumb easy. You can cover so much very easily.
 
Diosama

Diosama

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X WaNtEd X said:
Yo guys I got netplay. Hit me up if any of you ever want to play. I think I could get decent connection with people from florida. Midwest and Canada might be shaky.
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tfw u can't netplay because of your craptop :(
btw what's "lh"? Ledge-hop?
 
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-ACE-

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
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I literally had that avatar for like a year before passing the torch to Joe. It's just a picture of M2K and a company name. How are sponsors allowed in this site? Are they banning bizz next?

Edit: new avatar????

Cuz_Ganon_is_sexy_like_that_by_Ganondorf_Fanclub.jpg
 
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-ACE-

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
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X WaNtEd X said:
Moderating forums is serious business lool
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Oh yeah. They don't censor goddamn (and claim to be a family site), but the word brazzers, although not considered inappropriate by the censor, can get you infracted. How is brazzers more suggestive than YP? It's not, they just don't enforce rules appropriately.
 
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-ACE-

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
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Bwmat said:
They finally uploaded those sets from last week to youtube, here you go, ace:
https://youtu.be/ApIHg814IIU
https://youtu.be/mFOC6AuEwcU
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Thanks Matt! Your vids are always good.

Bro that first one vs espi... You've leveled up in the spacies matchup.

Second set... Add more empty sh wL in neutral. You could get a little more consistent with ASDI and shine SDI. He was just catching you off guard in neutral. You played well man.
 
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B

Bwmat

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I took a game off sion that day as well, but yakal knows the ganon matchup so well...
 
-ACE-

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
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Bwmat said:
I took a game off sion that day as well, but yakal knows the ganon matchup so well...
Click to expand...
You can take him with your current edgeguarding and punish game. Just a little more focus in neutral.

Also, I preach the empty sh wL for 2 main reasons: it's very underused, and top players literally just wait for you to aerial and punish. They don't expect the wL. If you use it appropriately, by the time they adjust you've gotten some good openings. This works at any level. It's a GREAT thing to practice, because of it's usefulness, and the fact that missing a wL and airdodging often means death.
 
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B

Bwmat

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665
I'm still really inconsistent with non - DJ Wavelands, though most of the time I do nothing rather than air dodge, thankfully.

I know it'd be really effective if I could get it down, as I still get wl-from edge to jab off on people most of the time even though I spam the **** out of it.
 
-ACE-

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
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Random rant.

If you want to feel a fox out, maintain just enough space so that he can't laser. This is a good thought process in general.

Pick DL against players you can out-neutral.

AC bair to runaway AC bair is pretty much safe vs anyone (beats/trades with immediate falcon nair approach). To maintain high level pressure, as soon as you AC bair and dash, based on what your opponent is doing, you want to be able to either

1. Continue the dashjump runaway bair fully retreating (good vs aggressive falcon)

2. Dashjump but wait and ff AC the bair

3. Hold backwards the entire time after the dashjump and pressure him with the bair (if he hasn't moved much). Commitment.

4. Dashjump, empty sh perfect wL toward him

5. Dashjump, empty sh pivot jab/ftilt

6. Don't dashjump, walkjump, and fade back, land, turnaround tomahawk

7. Dashjump to plat wL

8. Dashjump sh, dj wL on plat to drop thru aerial

9. wd instead of dash, backwards fulljump NIL on plat to instant drop aerial or instant dash shield drop

Based on what your opponent does (there are more options)

If we can treat an entire match like a micro situation we can succeed. What I mean by this, is basically to train yourself to give the neutral game a similar amount of focus as you would in a chaingrabbing situation. Imagine if you reacted to your opponent's every movement to the same extent as a chaingrabbing, or even a techchasing situation. This is virtually impossible but I believe it is the ultimate goal, which directly corresponds with the idea that a high level of pressure should always be maintained.
 
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-ACE-

-ACE-

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Another huge thing for maintaining pressure. Are you fastfalling everything? FP fastfalls create new options. Don't time a fastfall based on a predicted whiff, wait and react so you don't get the hit and not be able to follow up as well (crazy uair juggles if they survival DI for example). This makes Ganon so much faster. Obviously you don't want to fastfall literally everything, lol, but I really wish there was a specific thing on 20XX that would make you turn a certain color any time you are not fastfalling. I really think it would make players a lot faster as they realized places here and there in their gene where they forget to ff because they are focused too heavily on another aspect of the game.
 
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Divinokage

Divinokage

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAuBhIQrYhg&list=PL65IMg9w1B_hf0HNf8ahWUN78HmXvZ13p&index=14 The vids are up btw from last tournament. This is the link to how to beat your demon 101. lol Usually to break mental blocks you have to constantly try new things to throw off your opponents game or things you haven't done before consistently. I think it's ok to think that your rival is difficult to beat but you can't think that's it's impossible to overcome because if that happens you won't even be thinking about a gameplan to defeat him. You'll be stuck with unnecessary thoughts and will stop thinking about what's happening on screen.
 
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-ACE-

-ACE-

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Divinokage Divinokage you played extremely well. A few edguards could have been handled better but overall really good play. Godly DI most of the time, much unlike the set vs the moon lol. You can take him that was just a bad 2 sets
 
Divinokage

Divinokage

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-ACE- said:
Divinokage Divinokage you played extremely well. A few edguards could have been handled better but overall really good play. Godly DI most of the time, much unlike the set vs the moon lol. You can take him that was just a bad 2 sets
Click to expand...
Ya that happened because I felt myself way too hard when I arrived at GF and started saying things like all my opponents were nothing.. etc. rofl. So when I went to play in GF I was already ****ed because I thought I had it in the bag. The ****talk curse got me then just during the set eventually i was completely distraught and couldnt think straight anymore. I play x1000 better when I dont give a **** and play like a challenger/underdog.

Also I forgot to add earlier where i've heard a lot of times when you fight your rivals you both want to play a really good game however I don't think that should happen at all because during every tournament day there's a balance of each player. Someone can play extremely good, average or bad so if your rival starts playing bad, you cannot have any mercy if you want to win because he's someone that you need to defeat to get the W. You have to show him you deserve it and **** him up for having a shaky mindset during a set. I think that's the only real respect for your opponent. I say that because sometimes I went soft vs some people and decided to not punish as hard as I could for example. So I just want everyone here to not make that mistake even vs your friend in tournament. I mean at some point you have to ask, do you want your friend to succeed or do you want to kick his ass because he's someone in your way for the champion belt? =)
 
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X WaNtEd X

X WaNtEd X

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I play harder against my friends than anyone else. I want them to succeed, and to play beneath my best would only limit and insult them.
 
-ACE-

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
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Divinokage Divinokage also in situations like 7:44 when you jab them out of illusion/phantasm and they DI it well so they can side-b to ledge, remember basically no one will sweetspot that. Low ftilt works wonders.
 
tm

tm

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DCW said:
It's interesting to compare the two. You have to act on frame 18 to cover tech in place against spacies as Sheik (according to DruggedFox), vs. frame 15 or 16 to regrab spacies as Ganon (according to tm tm ), so that's a 2-3 frame difference. But that 2-3 frame difference is only when the spacies are at the lowest possible damage. Unlike tech in place time, the reaction time for regrab grows higher with their percent damage, so at some point it becomes easier to regrab than to cover tech in place. However, it's "easy" for Sheik to react to the other tech options (missed tech, techroll) because their animation last much longer than tech in place, whereas all the different DIs after a throw by Ganon could all have narrow reaction windows for Ganon to grab. So overall the chaingrab is probably harder.

Anyway, having frame data would settle all these questions. Specifically, we need the frame reaction window for each DI at each percent damage for both Fox and Falco. That's a daunting task...if no one else does it before me (hint hint!) I might try to gather some data over the holiday.
Click to expand...
At the lowest %s, it's 15 frames (just tested to confirm). Above that I don't care; I already know it's easy enough to do consistently by 70% and most likely 50% as well.

Good **** Kage.
 
tm

tm

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PSA: Frame-perfect and space-perfect falcon uthrow knee is inescapable for us from 58% and higher (damage after the throw)

edit:
I tested some other stuff and came up with ganon's decent DI / tech / defensive options after falcon gets a grab at any %, but I'm not sure I want to make this info public lol.
 
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RedmanSSBM

RedmanSSBM

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Yo Divinokage Divinokage What is going on with you and edgeguarding Marth? I watch all of your sets vs The Moon and I don't think I saw a single upair land when he was recovering low, and you attempted that at least 20 or so times throughout each set, on stage of course. This is a problem that I have seen you struggle with when you played The Moon back at Big House 5. You had trouble edgeguarding Marth while he had trouble getting in on you and edgeguarding you. But now it looks like The Moon knows how to play neutral a lot better and even edgeguard efficiently, especially during GF. I don't know why you haven't been practicing edgeguards on Marth but it's very apparent to me that you haven't been because the only edgeguards I saw you land were high recoveries being negated with a bair. Are you so afraid of SDing when you wavedash back to grab the ledge and falling upair that you just refuse to do it? With practice you can get that down 100% and it destroys Marths trying to recover low. Even a ledge-hop upair would have been great but I never saw you go for that either. Edgeguarding Marth should be a walk in the park yet it looks like you really haven't invested time into improving that part of your game cause there were countless moments where if you completed the edgeguard on The Moon it would have been a stock and it would have been many games you could have won. I really hope you practice the ledge-drop upairs more so that you can prepare yourself for Marth again next time. I'm just disappointed you still haven't really worked on it or even implemented it. I would have given you props if you at least tried it but it looked like you never did, so when you say you need to try new things, this is definitely one of them.

Not to mention edgeguarding, there were several other things against Marth I saw that you didn't do, such as very few or no instant upairs out of shield when he attacked your shield, you'd go for the nair pretty much every time after a downthrow and never tried to get a regrab or mix it up, you got called out multiple times for trying to sweet spot with double jump, and no downthrow upsmash at kill percents when Marth DIs in. I've never seen you even try to ledge-stall and refresh your invincibility on the ledge. It's like you're afraid of it or something. In general your ledge game needs a lot of work and you can easily do this with some practice. I just know for a fact that if you implement all of the things that I have listed that you will be at least three times more successful in the Marth matchup than you already are. You got the neutral game and the punishes down pretty well, but your edgeguarding is really your weakest link here.
 
Divinokage

Divinokage

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Well when a Marth at that level comes my way during practice i'll let you know. No one has a high level Marth here. As for the instant uair OOS, a lot of times it wont work because the Marth is spaced correctly with a FF fair. I'm forced to improvise matchups when I fight someone really good.
 
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-ACE-

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
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