Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

DCW

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I think learning the chaingrab is a great choice, @Divinokage! I've been practicing it in 20XX. The first step is to learn how to cover behind DI, the hardest option. Magus' post is the best source of info: http://smashboards.com/threads/the-...de-update-12-31-06-falco-cg-vids-added.85582/

PS: To practice behind DI, load your normal version of Melee, go to Training Mode, and set the CPU to Attack Mode. He'll DI slight behind the first time you throw him, then full DI behind after every regrab. You probably already know all this, but somebody reading might not. : )
 
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-ACE-

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-ACE- -ACE- what's the input for that tilt at 1:28? It looks like you pivoted before the tilt even came out? Tipman does this, too, with his pivot jabs. He actually just pivots and stops momentum before jab comes out.

When I pivot ftilt, I do this:
:GCR:
:GCL:+:GCA:

Only one frame. But it looks like I just straight up pivot with the ftilt instead of pivoting, stopping momentum, then ftilting. I'd like to know how to do this way
Honestly that's it, just a perfect "flick" (slightly more finesse than a flick I'd say). I was just pissed that my controller wouldn't smash turn left/dash backwards left at the time and tried to do stuff out of pivot instead lol.

D DCW level 1's do the same thing. Slightly behind when grabbed while grounded, full behind when grabbed while airborne.
 
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PseudoTurtle

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That's it? Damn, could've saved me a bunch of hassle I think. Lol whatever. Time to hit the lab.

So I've been thinking if the fox chain grab is actually worth learning. Obviously, if you can do it consistently and perfectly, then yes, it's worth learning. Does anyone have the data for what frame you can recognize the DI and then which frame after that you have to grab by? I'm not sure if it's within my capabilities in regards to reaction time.
 

DCW

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I don't have the frame data, no. I'm curious about that too.

I will say, I have slow reaction times, but I've been practicing and I've already 0-deathed a Falco in friendlies. Fox is harder but still seems possible. I got a 34-death last night in 20XX. [34% is when regrab becomes guaranteed.] By the way, I think it's super-important to use 20XX to practice with random DI rather than the fixed DI CPUs use in vanilla Melee. Otherwise you need a friend to random DI for you.

But yeah, I think the chaingrab is worth it. I found DruggedFox's words on the Sheik techchase inspiring:

The last thing I will say is that my experience with tech chasing leads me to believe that discipline is one of the most important parts of this. People ask me how I got so good at it (even though I drop like half my tech chases in tournament LOL) or whether or not I would tech chase in a last stock situation where if I drop it I will die...the answer is yes, I will. The reason I'm better at it than everyone else is because I'm more committed to it; I'm willing to lose trying my best to do it, in hopes that I will eventually not mess it up. I've probably been tech in place shined more times than anyone in the entire history of the game, and that's not an exaggeration.​

I believe the same applies to Ganon's chaingrab. (Source: http://portraitinsmash.blogspot.com/2015/09/tech-chasing.html)
 

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With fox my confident limit starts around 70-80%. Falco, a little bit lower. Turnaround grab works fine for full DI behind until 64% on Falco and 69% on fox in my experience. So at least there are only 3 options to cover below 70. After that there's 4. But not many people can escape chaingrabs well. If they just go full DI away/behind I'll wreck them. It's distinguishing between full and partial DI and reacting with either a grab, turnaround grab, or dash jc grab that's difficult.
 

X WaNtEd X

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-ACE- -ACE- what's the input for that tilt at 1:28? It looks like you pivoted before the tilt even came out? Tipman does this, too, with his pivot jabs. He actually just pivots and stops momentum before jab comes out.

When I pivot ftilt, I do this:
:GCR:
:GCL:+:GCA:

Only one frame. But it looks like I just straight up pivot with the ftilt instead of pivoting, stopping momentum, then ftilting. I'd like to know how to do this way
LOL you and I have the opposite problem. I've been able to do it the way Tipman and ACE do it for awhile. But I cannot consistently do it that way at all. It's on my tech bucket list, though.
 

X WaNtEd X

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I only think the chaingrab is worthwhile for a few regrabs. Once you get a spacie to the percent where you can actually react to the chaingrab, you can put them offstage off a conversion. But because Ganon doesn't have guaranteed followups (unless you're under a platform) off a grab, it's worthwhile to use to try and force bad DI (ftilt after a few regrabs and put them way farther offstage than they would've thought they'd be), a missed tech, or to condition.

Yo but I've been thinking, could you do an option select for chaingrab? So my thinking is it's pretty hard to react to DI behind. So what if you always grabbed or dash grabbed reactively to regular DI or DI away and tech chased/jab on reaction to DI behind? Could someone actually pull that off?
 

Darkshadovv

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Does anyone have knockback data for Ganondorf's moveset is? Things like base knockback, knockback scaling, angle, etc. The frame data thread only shows moveset duration, iasa, etc.

I've seen Brawl's and Sm4sh's, I just want to compare them to Melee.
 

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I just watched kage vs the moon wf. Great ****ing set. Glad Kage is aware of his absence of marth killer, it's huge. This is random also, but marth is probably the #1 character for teching on platforms after you dthrow them. Like, the percent range where this scenario happens...

**you dthrow, go to uair, but miss because he techs in time**

....is actually huge. Expect Marth to tech and techchase. At low% it's may be worth the hard read (dair). But anything that'll get him offstage.
 

-ACE-

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http://youtu.be/DicfTaoceAw

0:34:48 Tipman vs Mojohnbo (falcon)
0:52:45 Linguini vs Mumbo (falco)
1:17:30 Tipman vs Happy Hydra (puff)
2:31:45 Linguini vs Blea Gelo (luigi)
3:06:30 The Ditto
3:42:50 Linguini vs Red1 (link)
4:06:30 Linguini vs Animal Control (fox)
4:25:00 Linguini vs porkchops (falco)
4:44:20 Linguini vs Blea (Grand Finals)

Think I got that right. Link may change.
^^ expand that
 

PseudoTurtle

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I just watched kage vs the moon wf. Great ****ing set. Glad Kage is aware of his absence of marth killer, it's huge. This is random also, but marth is probably the #1 character for teching on platforms after you dthrow them. Like, the percent range where this scenario happens...

**you dthrow, go to uair, but miss because he techs in time**

....is actually huge. Expect Marth to tech and techchase. At low% it's may be worth the hard read (dair). But anything that'll get him offstage.
This is good info. At higher % I like to do an up air to cover missed tech then react with another up air / bair. You can cover all the options this way. I think you can also react with a waveland into grab. If only ganon had a legit jab reset, this would be so much easier.

Dave, you got a link to the set? Twitch vod or whatever?

edit: Ace with the links lolol
 
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If we're going to play this character seriously we seriously need to investigate ways to win ('cept shiek, **** that ****), or at least ways to cover a lot of our glaring weaknesses. I still feel Ganondorfs aren't slippery enough (it seems the character attracts some very impatient people, and we can't afford this), and generally don't practice the CG nearly enough to make it a go-to option when you do land that grab. Ganondorf won't outrun/outspace most characters, but good mix-ups, reaction, and a strong defensive game may bring him some places again. Approaching with him is off the table unless it's done sparingly, and probably only with a read. Every time I play him I realize how hard he really is to put all together. I don't think there's been any time at any point where everything I could do was clean, and crisp. I'd probably have to practice 2-3 hours a day to get to a point where I felt good about how I was performing and executing--on top of playing a lot of strong players regularly.

I know I sound like a broken record sometimes, but it does bother me that we can't pull the V out our *** even if we needed to. I just sometimes don't see a purpose in playing Ganondorf if I want to really play the game, or I need to adapt my playstyle to something more in line with how he's supposed to be played, or he's just trash-tier and he should be buried and forgotten about. Playing him in tournament may be more about masochism than anything else. I've never met a bigger group of odd-balls than Ganondorf players. My first introduction to melee again was through a recovering drug-addict who played Ganondorf religiously.

Seriously, what the **** are we going to do? I think about dropping him all together way too much. I wonder if he's even worthy as a pocket character for the CP, but when people understand him they just thrash him to death once they get the hit, and they pretty much always will since we don't have option selects; (in neutral) we just get them imposed on us.

I'm really kind of feeling that I am playing a fighter in a smash series rather than a really usable, viable character.
 
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With fox my confident limit starts around 70-80%. Falco, a little bit lower. Turnaround grab works fine for full DI behind until 64% on Falco and 69% on fox in my experience. So at least there are only 3 options to cover below 70. After that there's 4. But not many people can escape chaingrabs well. If they just go full DI away/behind I'll wreck them. It's distinguishing between full and partial DI and reacting with either a grab, turnaround grab, or dash jc grab that's difficult.
Honestly, why is that?

All right, here is my thoughts on why the CG should be both perfected, and easy for us to do:

1. The CG is actually slow, and reactable if you are watching CLOSELY for the OPENING frames after the opponent begins to DI just above his back. Just like tech-chasing. If you are waiting for the roll to be nearly over before you start moving/doing it you're ****ed.
2. The CG can refresh moves, and pummel can expedite the process by a grab or two.
3. The only one that it probably will be hard to do is Fox, and that's it. Everyone else should be easier to time since it's not frame perfect/tons of time to initiate it.
4. If you have the CG down then no one will ever **** with your grab-range/wavedash grab, etc. Which opens up an entirely new set of options for us to play with. Namely, being able to goad our opponents into spot-dodging which can easily get them ****ed up. We can't install anything on people to do as of right now. The CG would at least make them think twice, or flinch before dealing with us. As of right now a grab is some punishment, but nothing else. It should be a flat out death.

I don't think anyone has come close to practicing it enough to where it's second-nature like reverse ledge-dash, or something else that others have perfected. This is something that's just way too important to be missed. Honestly, a heavy amount of practice should go into it until it's easy to at least get the reads--the timing will always be tight/hard.


**** it I'm double postin'
 
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X WaNtEd X

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There's no way anyone is going to become proficient enough with the cg on spacies to convert to death from low percents. The reaction time required is not possible by humans. If you are chaingrabbing below 50%, it is because of reads and your opponent's bad DI.

One grab will never necessarily equal death. Although it should in a lot of instances it's not, so don't think I'm saying people shouldn't work on their grab game. People should be optimizing edge guards more, because that's an area where you might be able to guarantee death. And the neural game by getting good at all types of movement, powershields, shield DI, pivots, and ledge ****.
 

-ACE-

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Yeah edgeguarding is so ****ing important. I just cg spacies until I'm facing a plat then uthrow to uair them offstage (techchase, or regrab if they DI behind) and edgeguard. It kinda let's you choose the grab punish you want.
 

tm

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That's it? Damn, could've saved me a bunch of hassle I think. Lol whatever. Time to hit the lab.

So I've been thinking if the fox chain grab is actually worth learning. Obviously, if you can do it consistently and perfectly, then yes, it's worth learning. Does anyone have the data for what frame you can recognize the DI and then which frame after that you have to grab by? I'm not sure if it's within my capabilities in regards to reaction time.
At the lowest %s you only have 15 or 16 frames to recognize the DI from the first frame of release, then frame perfect regrab. Very difficult but humanly possible.
I don't have the frame data, no. I'm curious about that too.

I will say, I have slow reaction times, but I've been practicing and I've already 0-deathed a Falco in friendlies. Fox is harder but still seems possible. I got a 34-death last night in 20XX. [34% is when regrab becomes guaranteed.] By the way, I think it's super-important to use 20XX to practice with random DI rather than the fixed DI CPUs use in vanilla Melee. Otherwise you need a friend to random DI for you.

But yeah, I think the chaingrab is worth it. I found DruggedFox's words on the Sheik techchase inspiring:

The last thing I will say is that my experience with tech chasing leads me to believe that discipline is one of the most important parts of this. People ask me how I got so good at it (even though I drop like half my tech chases in tournament LOL) or whether or not I would tech chase in a last stock situation where if I drop it I will die...the answer is yes, I will. The reason I'm better at it than everyone else is because I'm more committed to it; I'm willing to lose trying my best to do it, in hopes that I will eventually not mess it up. I've probably been tech in place shined more times than anyone in the entire history of the game, and that's not an exaggeration.​

I believe the same applies to Ganon's chaingrab. (Source: http://portraitinsmash.blogspot.com/2015/09/tech-chasing.html)
amazing message
Yo but I've been thinking, could you do an option select for chaingrab? So my thinking is it's pretty hard to react to DI behind. So what if you always grabbed or dash grabbed reactively to regular DI or DI away and tech chased/jab on reaction to DI behind? Could someone actually pull that off?
Yeah, but that's basically as hard as the CG itself lol.
Does anyone have knockback data for Ganondorf's moveset is? Things like base knockback, knockback scaling, angle, etc. The frame data thread only shows moveset duration, iasa, etc.

I've seen Brawl's and Sm4sh's, I just want to compare them to Melee.
http://www.mediafire.com/?mt2yj2jy4hl6d4j

Add me to the church of chaingrab. If a really good player knows ganon well enough, they can react to uthrow and DI away. Going to platform can almost always force a 50/50, or alternatively a guaranteed uair / ftilt / dtilt, all of which are non-lethal unless at super high %. Even spacies can take an uthrow bair at high % and recover easily if they DI well. The CG is basically the only punish ganon has on sheik / fox / falco that gives them 0% chance to live if we don't mess up (assuming they don't land on a plat)
 
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What are good options out of a waveland? I've been using jab mostly because it's really easy to do, and when retreating I've tried down angled forward tilts to shield-stab, but are there other moves that work better? Particularly, I'm pretty lost as to how I should approach with a waveland.
 

X WaNtEd X

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tm tm Are you certain of that? I don't know for sure, but I feel like it would be almost as hard, but a little easier. My reasoning is that you wouldn't have to do the fp regrab, you'd just have to recognize the DI within those 15-16 frames.

Boyz II Mensch Boyz II Mensch This question gets asked a lot and I think I have a good answer for it now. Just about every tilt, grab, and aerial aside from nair can be used well out of a waveland. But it's really dependent on the context. There's no magic formula where it's like "yeah, waveland jab is always good no matter what. Spam that ****" Nah brah. Sorry. Melee isn't simple like that. If you want to spam options with marginal success, play Falco, Sheik, or Puff.

But to be more specific, the most common ways you will approach with a waveland are to grab when you read that someone will shield, or to jab. See, when you double jump, full hop, or short hop, you can make it look like you're about to come down with a meaty aerial. So you might be able to trick someone into shielding, in which case you waveland in and get that grab. It's all about the cadence of your jump. Like if you tend to fade back just slightly before you do an aerial, you want to do that before you waveland in this case. See what I'm saying?

What you mostly want to use wavelands for is to position yourself. A lot of it is just smoke and mirrors; you're trying to keep yourself mobile, unpredictable, and in a good position. What is a good position? Center stage, for one. Underneath your opponent in a way that an instant uair or bair will clip them is another. Obviously, there are more...far more. That's why talking about Melee is really hard in text because it's such a complex game. A lot of things you just sort of have to figure out for yourself no matter how much guidance you're given.
 
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X WaNtEd X X WaNtEd X Solid. I'll experiment and see what works. I've noticed that people are really liberal with shielding against Ganon because he hits so hard, so I'll bet grab out of waveland is really good. I've been a lurker for a while, but I think you're right that the only way to really understand this stuff is to really play matches.
 

DCW

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There's no way anyone is going to become proficient enough with the cg on spacies to convert to death from low percents. The reaction time required is not possible by humans. If you are chaingrabbing below 50%, it is because of reads and your opponent's bad DI.

One grab will never necessarily equal death. Although it should in a lot of instances it's not, so don't think I'm saying people shouldn't work on their grab game. People should be optimizing edge guards more, because that's an area where you might be able to guarantee death. And the neural game by getting good at all types of movement, powershields, shield DI, pivots, and ledge ****.
I agree that edgeguards are very important. However, I disagree with your claim that the chaingrab is impractical. I have slow reaction times, am a low- to mid-level player, and have practiced the chaingrab irregularly for a short period of time (once ever few weeks for about two months), yet as I've said, I have chaingrabbed to death from low percent several times, including in friendlies. It seems plausible that better players than me with good reaction times could become much more consistent in 0-death chaingrabs, provided they dedicated the necessary time to it. They could at least get good enough to chaingrab to death some significant fraction of the time, if not every time. You mention that "the reaction time is not possible by humans." Do we actually have frame data on this? And if not, I say we get it!

I think the frame data would support my position on the plausibility of the chaingrab at low percents. This is because I'm able to regrab spacies below 50% (esp. Falco) with a success rate above one half. Since their DI is random, that would mean at least some of the time I was reacting fast enough.

We shouldn't assume this is impossible until we have hard data. Has anyone here looked at the frame data?
 
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DCW

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At the lowest %s you only have 15 or 16 frames to recognize the DI from the first frame of release, then frame perfect regrab. Very difficult but humanly possible.
I missed this earlier. tm tm , do you have a reference for that, or did you find out the frame tolerance on your own?
 

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X WaNtEd X X WaNtEd X Solid. I'll experiment and see what works. I've noticed that people are really liberal with shielding against Ganon because he hits so hard, so I'll bet grab out of waveland is really good. I've been a lurker for a while, but I think you're right that the only way to really understand this stuff is to really play matches.
He gave a good answer, grab and jab are probably best. Just remember you can do literally anything out of a waveland. Try perfect wL into bair. If you jump immediately it keeps your wL momentum and you can approach with bair as if you moonwalked into it. Try pivots after wavelands. And always practice wavelanding out of an empty shorthop. It's one of Ganon's best tools in neutral.
 

PseudoTurtle

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At the lowest %s you only have 15 or 16 frames to recognize the DI from the first frame of release, then frame perfect regrab. Very difficult but humanly possible.
Damn, that's what I thought. Just tested my reaction time - 300 ms or 18 frames. Just a bit too fast for me. I already suck complete balls at chain grabbing anyway - I can't even do it on sheik and I've practiced for so ****ing long, but I'm switching to sheik against sheik anyway so no big deal there.

I think that the chain grab is an extremely valuable tool if you can get it. But, for me, I think it is just outside of my ability. Hard reads and 3/4 option coverage it is ;)
 

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Once you get used to chaingrabbing you get an idea of typical DI mixups. I have chaingrabbed falcon to death on FD from 60-70%. Max pummeling and reading DI away with uthrow. Doesn't take long to get him to a percent where you can get him offstage if you guess right like twice.

For the legit cg on spacies, for partial DI behind I basically flick the stick backwards about 1/2 way to the notch, return it to neutral and grab. You can treat it sort of like you're trying to jab him but grab instead. Any DI in front you can just dash jc grab. Then you just have to distinguish between full behind and partial behind and react quickly.
 
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DCW

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If we're going to play this character seriously we seriously need to investigate ways to win ('cept shiek, **** that ****), or at least ways to cover a lot of our glaring weaknesses. I still feel Ganondorfs aren't slippery enough (it seems the character attracts some very impatient people, and we can't afford this), and generally don't practice the CG nearly enough to make it a go-to option when you do land that grab. Ganondorf won't outrun/outspace most characters, but good mix-ups, reaction, and a strong defensive game may bring him some places again. Approaching with him is off the table unless it's done sparingly, and probably only with a read. Every time I play him I realize how hard he really is to put all together. I don't think there's been any time at any point where everything I could do was clean, and crisp. I'd probably have to practice 2-3 hours a day to get to a point where I felt good about how I was performing and executing--on top of playing a lot of strong players regularly.

I know I sound like a broken record sometimes, but it does bother me that we can't pull the V out our *** even if we needed to. I just sometimes don't see a purpose in playing Ganondorf if I want to really play the game, or I need to adapt my playstyle to something more in line with how he's supposed to be played, or he's just trash-tier and he should be buried and forgotten about. Playing him in tournament may be more about masochism than anything else. I've never met a bigger group of odd-balls than Ganondorf players. My first introduction to melee again was through a recovering drug-addict who played Ganondorf religiously.

Seriously, what the **** are we going to do? I think about dropping him all together way too much. I wonder if he's even worthy as a pocket character for the CP, but when people understand him they just thrash him to death once they get the hit, and they pretty much always will since we don't have option selects; (in neutral) we just get them imposed on us.

I'm really kind of feeling that I am playing a fighter in a smash series rather than a really usable, viable character.
You said this a while ago, but no one responded and I think it's important.

I think we should begin with the realization that Ganondorf isn't a good character, relative to the high tiers. We shouldn't be delusional "nutty Ganon mains" who think he's the best. We should recognize his weaknesses so that we can minimize them, just like we recognize his strengths and maximize those. But you already know this, I think.

Once we realize Ganon is "bad," we have to evaluate why we play the game and see if Ganon is the right character to meet those goals. I think there are two primary reasons why we play, at the competitive level: 1) We enjoy playing the game as a certain character or 2) We enjoy winning. Of course, most people enjoy both to an extent, but we have to step back and ask ourselves what the balance is: do I enjoy playing Ganon even though I'm less likely to win, or do I enjoy winning and therefore should maximize my chances by playing a top tier? We have to balance our desire to win versus our love of our character and make a character pick appropriately. For me, I like Ganon enough to tilt the balance in his favor, even though it's harder to win with him.

But sometimes the balance swings. A few weeks ago I was sick of having to try so much harder than the players maining spacies and I started practicing Marth. I was open to the idea of switching mains if I liked Marth more. But eventually I got tired of him and went back to Ganon. But if I had kept enjoying playing as Marth, I would have kept playing as him. I think that's the answer, as simple as it is: play the character you enjoy most (understanding you'll always have your short-term ups and downs, but that's not what you're talking about). If you're deeply frustrated with Ganon, consider taking a break from the game or playing as a different character for a while. That will refresh you. After that time you can decide: am I enjoying this more, or would I enjoy playing Ganon more? You're not locked in. You can ask that question any time. But at the end of the day, you should do what you enjoy long-term, whether that's a character or winning. Why else would we play?
 
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-ACE-

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The biggest thing to me is seriously just finding that perfect limit between being too close and effectively cornering your opponent and drastically limiting their options. It's the best way to minimize his weaknesses in neutral imo.

Basically maintaining a very high level of pressure.
 
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The biggest thing to me is seriously just finding that perfect limit between being too close and effectively cornering your opponent and drastically limiting their options. It's the best way to minimize his weaknesses in neutral imo.

Basically maintaining a very high level of pressure.
Whenever I've made an upset it's been by doing just that. Most people remark that once I go in I am very smothering. I mix-up like crazy. If I let them breathe at all then it becomes an uphill battle. I think we need to play in tighter margins than even Fox/Falco.
 

tm

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tm tm Are you certain of that? I don't know for sure, but I feel like it would be almost as hard, but a little easier. My reasoning is that you wouldn't have to do the fp regrab, you'd just have to recognize the DI within those 15-16 frames.
Yeah that's true and it would be a little easier. Just my opinion that you might training that to consistency is the hard part, not the frame perfect inputs

I missed this earlier. tm tm , do you have a reference for that, or did you find out the frame tolerance on your own?
It's from counting frames on my own when I was practicing at some point, although I don't remember 100% so don't take it as gospel. When ganon dthrows fox there's at least 14 (I think it's 15) frames of him just finishing the dthrow before you can even act, so that time is "purely used" to recognize their DI. Then in theory, you recognize it at the end of that period and immediately begin the frame perfect follow up afterwards. Granted this might require the ganondorf player to recognize the DI by only the FIRST frame of the dthrow knockback, depending on the player's reaction time. For this reason, it might not be viable, even at top level, for someone to begin the chaingrab at the lowest %s that it's technically possible. It might need to start as late as 50% on fox, but even then this is a godsend.
Damn, that's what I thought. Just tested my reaction time - 300 ms or 18 frames. Just a bit too fast for me. I already suck complete balls at chain grabbing anyway - I can't even do it on sheik and I've practiced for so ****ing long, but I'm switching to sheik against sheik anyway so no big deal there.

I think that the chain grab is an extremely valuable tool if you can get it. But, for me, I think it is just outside of my ability. Hard reads and 3/4 option coverage it is ;)
Personally I don't think it's that simple. And I think you can train to improve your reactions significantly. This article spoke to me: http://www.meleeitonme.com/how-to-improve-your-tech-chasing/
That might not change the potential "harsh reality" in the case that you won't be able to do it no matter how much you practice, but I believe that you won't even be able to tell whether or not it's possible unless you put in a massive amount of work first. IMO even if it doesn't pan out, you'll learn a lot and still improve things that are applicable in many other situations.
 
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