Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[-ACE-]

Ace vs porkchops 5 Random matches. Last two I adjusted, small cg last game. Ganon vs fox. Flub city.

http://youtu.be/DXXnQCAEJMo

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

Ace vs porkchops 5 Random matches. Last two I adjusted, small cg last game. Ganon vs fox. Flub city.

http://youtu.be/DXXnQCAEJMo

Is that yo crib? Brrrruuuuuhhhh that matchup is so foogazie Dx

 

[-ACE-]

Is that yo crib? Brrrruuuuuhhhh that matchup is so foogazie Dx

Clays place. Outdoor smash ftw. Lol I'll delete more of my phone so I can record more next time, I won 2/3 of the next 3 matches after I stopped recording. Same approximate 25% win rate overall. I made bad mistakes. I'm going to post videos more often tho.

 

[DCW]

-ACE- please post more vids! It helps to see the general ideas and strategies you promote on the Ganon boards applied in-game.

Those first three matches were brutal, especially the long waveshine strings which all led to edgeguards. Is there anything Ganon can do, once he gets shined, to escape that? I noticed that in the last game or two you were near the ledge but got shined back in towards the stage and escaped. Did Porkchops just mess up, or did you achieve that through SDI? If so, is reversing direction with SDI guaranteed?

One other thought. When you were waveshined off the stage, sometimes you grabbed the ledge and sometimes you didn't. When you did, the attack ended and you got back on stage. When you didn't, Porkchops edgeguarded, usually successfully. Is this--whether or not you grab the ledge or fall after being shined-- random, or influenced by your DI? How should I be DIing to grab the ledge?

 

[-ACE-]

That was my SDI. I did ok, should've gotten out sooner a few times. After a few successful ones he'll react to SDI in, but it's still the only way to get out. When you get shined extremely close to the ledge or double shined in some situations I don't think you can grab ledge. This is why I preach stage control, you just have to give the shine crazy respect. Clay is super brutal on Ganons it happens.

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

Sdi shines in to get outta waveshine combo's and I think if you hold down you grab ledge after shine

 

[-ACE-]

Hold in, or down + in to grab ledge... but right at the ledge I'm not sure. It's like the base kb puts me past the ledge before Ganon is in the animation that allows you to grab it.

 

[DCW]

I'm guessing you can't always get enough SDI to reverse your direction, that it depends on how close you are to Fox when he shines you?
Also, I never show which way to ASDI shines--in or away? For that matter, I don't know how to shield DI them either. Ace, I know you're big on this.

 

[-ACE-]

I'm guessing you can't always get enough SDI to reverse your direction, that it depends on how close you are to Fox when he shines you?
Also, I never show which way to ASDI shines--in or away? For that matter, I don't know how to shield DI them either. Ace, I know you're big on this.

Shield DI helps less vs fox because his shine has more range. Ganon can't grab a fox double shine approach like he can Falco's. But it should still be used to help your positioning (shield DI to the right before you roll right) as every little bit of space counts.

For the shine I am holding c-stick behind fox and slamming the control stick like a metronome in the same direction on every shine. You can also go away instead (and get out of his shine range) but it's better on bigger stages. You don't ever want to be trapped at the ledge. Remember taking 50% damage in center stage means nothing to the dark lord, but getting shine spiked is the #1 thing you're trying to avoid. Oh and it'll take 2-3 SDI's to get out sometimes. This is why I say be selective with SDI away. Once you're out you're cornered.

But yeah I deal with fox's drill the same way, hold C-stick and slap the stick like I overdosed on caffeine. My SDI has gotten a LOT better after being able to react quickly and do this technique.

Also as a reminder, jab isn't safe vs fox at 0%. Free waveshine so you can die from this one mistake, better to land a grab, dash attack, or spaced aerial on a good fox at 0%.

EDIT: In that last game also, while I was chaingrabbing, I should have recognized sooner that he generally fears DI behind when he knows I'm looking for a uthrow trap. I should have just dthrow'd again and ftilt'd him ftw. 110-120% is pretty much optimal dthrow to ftilt percent near ledge. You can land it sooner but they'll have enough recovery options to make edgeguarding more complicated if they DI it well. It's at these lower percents (well, relatively lower, like 60-100) where I'll sometimes opt for the uthrow I went for (forces either going offstage or teching on plat).

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Yo guys. n0ne vs. coffeblack vod. n0ne goes Ganon for the first set of the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RADS8dLF24

n0ne has the best movement of any Ganon imo. Lot of good stuff in here.

 

[-ACE-]

One thing that I think helps in techchasing....

If you fair a fastfaller at super low% and force him to tech, there are 2 ways you could go about punishing techroll into you and tech in place. Lately I've been running up and usmashing techroll in. I initially did this because it's safe and usually leads to a easy edgeguard. But I also looked at the conditioning aspect. The alternative to the usmash is usually the classic SHFFL'd dair following a short dash forward. This dash forward is the only thing your opponent has to go off of as an indicator of which option(s) you are going to choose to cover. When he sees the dash he doesn't know if you're going for tech in place or techroll behind. But if you usmash this dash isn't there. Someone that pays attention to this can easily link the dash to punishing tech in place if you start yolo'ing that usmash. So once you have him conditioned, if you dash at him, there's a better chance of him techrolling in, so you can stomp him. Just one advanced mindgame. If he's techrolling away to may have to empty sh perfect wL to continue pressure.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Also I have a few questions:

1. Does anyone have a good percent range you should be using nair off a dthrow against Marth? Whenever I do it at low percents, Marth will just fair before I can get anymore followups.

2. How do you guys keep Falco on the ledge? If you happen to be right there, cc jab will kill him if he double lasers. But if you're in a position to cc jab his double lasers, he can just ledgehop dair or ledgedash. And then if you get into a position to cover those options, you aren't close enough to cc jab his double lasers. So what do you guys do? I can't figure out a good answer to this.

 

[-ACE-]

So what do you guys do?

wd back

 

[Bwmat]

wd back

You have to read it though, I'm pretty sure you can't react.

Optimal is probably get out of range of a ledgehop aerial (either just run in and stop, or run into range and wd back), ftilt/grab if they try it anyway, and ps and punish if they go for the laser.

Doing that consistently would be ridiculously hard though. And I say that being pretty good at powershielding.

 

[-ACE-]

Sometimes, but if you're out of range of the immediate rising dair/fair hitbox (still good enough to cc jab lasers) you can wd back and jab on reaction. Dtilt would require a read for sure. But, even with reads you could simply mixup retreating fair and cc jab and get a good amount of profit since both essentially are free KO's if you guess right. That cc jab really changes falcos that think lhdl is safe.

 

[DCW]

Shield DI helps less vs fox because his shine has more range. Ganon can't grab a fox double shine approach like he can Falco's. But it should still be used to help your positioning (shield DI to the right before you roll right) as every little bit of space counts.

For the shine I am holding c-stick behind fox and slamming the control stick like a metronome in the same direction on every shine. You can also go away instead (and get out of his shine range) but it's better on bigger stages. You don't ever want to be trapped at the ledge. Remember taking 50% damage in center stage means nothing to the dark lord, but getting shine spiked is the #1 thing you're trying to avoid. Oh and it'll take 2-3 SDI's to get out sometimes. This is why I say be selective with SDI away. Once you're out you're cornered.

But yeah I deal with fox's drill the same way, hold C-stick and slap the stick like I overdosed on caffeine. My SDI has gotten a LOT better after being able to react quickly and do this technique.

Let me summarize that to make sure I understand. When being shield pressured with shine, shield DI away. When being waveshined, ASDI away and A) SDI in most of the time, but sometimes B) SDI out to escape on larger stages.

-ACE- you say that sometimes it takes 2-3 SDI's to get out. Do you mean 2-3 SDI's for a single shine? Because that sounds really hard to me. Or do you mean that I might get shined two or three times before the SDI trick works? For Fox's drill, do you SDI in to get behind him, or away to get out of range?

 

[-ACE-]

I might get shined two or three times before the SDI trick works

This.

SDI away from drill and buffer roll, jab, or grab if you have time.

Normally, ASDI and SDI behind fox waveshine. Make him adjust, then throw in ASDI/SDI away as a mixup when you won't get cornered (if he shines you at the ledge toward center stage, use away).

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Also I have a few questions:

1. Does anyone have a good percent range you should be using nair off a dthrow against Marth? Whenever I do it at low percents, Marth will just fair before I can get anymore followups.

I use it at low %. Works better on v1.0, which is kinda lame. Idk man, it seems to me that you can definitely land and shield before marth's fair comes out. I actually like to crouch cancel it and get another grab.

Also, I'm starting to agree with @Divinokage here in regards to falcon being hard as fuuuck for ganon, maybe harder than spacies. Definitely harder than falco, easier than sheik, and possibly equal to fox if the matchup is played correctly on the part of the falcon. Then again, the way Ian plays the matchup is really impressive, and sometimes it looks doable. Idk.

Maybe I just need to re-learn the mu.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Yeah I should've been doing that to beat the immediate fair. I just would like to know roughly what percent ranges will put me in a situation where if they fair immediately they can beat me before I uair so I know to try baiting things out or to just go for the uair, ya know? I'd also like to know what percents I can nair to fair if they survival DI. And finally, I'd like to know which hitbox of nair I should be going for and what you can do off the other ones in case you don't have perfect spacing.

 

[-ACE-]

Falcon is really tough. I think he's in the same tier of difficulty as Falco and jiggs.

 

[Bwmat]

I hold my own against most falcons here, and the only one I'm really scared of beats all my characters.

But the nairs get really frustrating sometimes, and played perfectly he does bop ganon pretty hard. I would still put him below spacies though.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

The reason I don't think Falcon beats Ganon as hard as people think is SDI and cc. I think you can really stop a lot of Falcon's combos and tech chases that revolve around nair if you are fast enough. And you can play really effectively against him when he's cornered. More so than Fox at least. CC also really destroys him harder than other characters I think. And it's especially effective because of Ganon's heavy weight. And yeah, Eikelmann plays the matchup really well. He's my inspiration in that matchup. After watching the way he plays, I'm convinced Ganon can do it against Falcon.

 

[-ACE-]

Do you guys ever cc jab his nair? Same way I do lhdl...

It's not new, but it is really useful. If you hold the stick in the proper spot down and behind you can be both CCing and jabbing at the same time without needing to move the stick. I use CC jab against CF's n-airs as well. You can try to jab him out of the n-air, and even if you whiff the 1st jab or do it too late just mash A when you get hit while holding that down & behind position and you'll jab him inbetween the 1st and 2nd hits of his n-air. Works the same way with other attacks that aren't too powerful and if you mess up hitting them out of the attack directly then mash A and you get them anyway.

PS anyone doubting falcon difficulty needs to play 20GX.

 

[Maxzeth]

What do I do in the Ganon/Puff match up? I just played a guy online and I got one kill from a rest punish and one from a bair in neutral, but other than that I got bodied.

 

[DCW]

This.

SDI away from drill and buffer roll, jab, or grab if you have time.

Normally, ASDI and SDI behind fox waveshine. Make him adjust, then throw in ASDI/SDI away as a mixup when you won't get cornered (if he shines you at the ledge toward center stage, use away).

Wouldn't holding in while being waveshined make it easier for the Fox to continue the waveshine if you mess up getting behind him, since your ASDI will cause you to be a little closer and therefore a little easier to reach with the next shine? Or do you just consider that the cost you pay to try to get behind Fox?

Also--you say to shield DI away when under shine pressure from a Fox. Why is that? I would have thought that would be a bad idea since it would increase the likelihood of getting shieldpoked when your shield is weak. Probably that's partly why I don't handle shine pressure well. haha

 

[Bwmat]

What do I do in the Ganon/Puff match up? I just played a guy online and I got one kill from a rest punish and one from a bair in neutral, but other than that I got bodied.

Lemme repost these, I think there was some good stuff for vs puff in these matches:
http://www.twitch.tv/sydq/v/27012044?t=04h01m09s (first game)
http://www.twitch.tv/sydq/v/27012044?t=05h23m47s (first & third games)

to summarize:
- bair more. This matchup is a battle of the spaced bairs.
- get good at combo DI and get to the ledge as fast as possible when you get hit to avoid getting gimped.
- d-throw fair
- punish their unsafe side-b's as much as possible (you can get a free bair/nair if it hits your shield)
- never underestimate the range of her bair, keep yourself just out of range until you strike.
- don't go offstage to edgeguard, it's not worth it. At most, you can try for uairs off the ledge (just make sure you regrab or land, or be damn sure you hit her) or maybe try to get them when they're recovering high with a tourney winner -> bair/uair.

although mojo monkey just came back and wrecked me yesterday with his puff, the matchup is pretty frustrating against a good one.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Do you guys ever cc jab his nair? Same way I do lhdl...



PS anyone doubting falcon difficulty needs to play 20GX.

I played 20GX for a year. I don't think Falcon is on the same level of difficulty as Fox. Like slightly below where Falco is at imo.

 

[-ACE-]

Wouldn't holding in while being waveshined make it easier for the Fox to continue the waveshine if you mess up getting behind him, since your ASDI will cause you to be a little closer and therefore a little easier to reach with the next shine? Or do you just consider that the cost you pay to try to get behind Fox?

Also--you say to shield DI away when under shine pressure from a Fox. Why is that? I would have thought that would be a bad idea since it would increase the likelihood of getting shieldpoked when your shield is weak. Probably that's partly why I don't handle shine pressure well. haha

The fox player will be doing maximum length wavedashes because he has to hit those to waveshine Ganon. So he'll be focusing on that. Porkchops doesn't miss that ****, but if you are playing a fox player that can't do it well, sure try SDI away (it's the SDI that really moves you) But at top level you need to escape the waveshine as close to center stage as possible. Don't get cornered.

Fox's shine doesn't really shield poke that often actually. The shield DI is just something that changes your position slightly. If he's crossing you up hard on a nair approach, shield DI behind and buffer roll behind instead of away.

X WaNtEd X I meant play gahtzu gravy or wizzy lol

 

[X WaNtEd X]

I don't have experience against gahtzu or wizzy. But my year vs. Gravy was enough for me to see what the Falcon Ganon matchup is like. And although I got bodied, I also have never really abandoned hope in that matchup.

 

[-ACE-]

I don't have experience against gahtzu or wizzy. But my year vs. Gravy was enough for me to see what the Falcon Ganon matchup is like. And although I got bodied, I also have never really abandoned hope in that matchup.

I think all 3 of them have leveled up hard since gravy came to FL. Ganon's punish game is too strong on falcon, I doubt anyone is abandoning hope. He's just hard to wall out sometimes since his neutral game is so much better than Ganon's.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Yeah but I've played him again since he went to FL when he came to Boston for a week this summer.

The neutral game is definitely the biggest problem with this matchup. It's pretty insanely lop-sided on FD especially. For 3/5s, it might even be worth it to have a secondary for that stage in that matchup.

 

[-ACE-]

X WaNtEd X lol falcon ditto him! jk, yeah FD is the worst stage, but I think it is a great stage to train on to sharpen anyone's basics in the matchup. It'll teach you how to properly respect his approach and pressure him with your ground game. The punish game is more demanding as well, but at top level I believe Ganon can wall out falcon on FD more than enough times in a set to stand a chance. You just can't commit to anything until you absolutely should/have to. Decision making is really big too.

 

[Diosama]

So I can't beat my Falcon friend for the life of me. He plays very patiently and pretty much always wins the neutral game, which he turns into a KO with superb tech chasing.

I've beaten several other Falcons, but can't beat him for the life of me. How do I approach him or break him up? I can offer more info about his playstyle if it helps.

 

[-ACE-]

Make good decisions mid-shorthop. You need to be able to react and wL back or forward when you initially went to aerial. Know when it's good to shieldgrab vs buffer roll. CC his approaches at low percent and try to keep center stage to an extent. Grabs are huge for punishing him properly. Utilize the situational chaingrab and uthrow trap him, then techchase on platforms with another grab. Get him offstage and keep him there.

 

[Bwmat]

My tactic against falcon is basically to fish for jank bair double hits (pivot bair ftw) against his approach, then chase him to the edge and edge guard

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Against falcon, the most important cc to land is when you are on a platform. Otherwise you will get comboed hard.

 

[-ACE-]

DI is huge vs falcon too. Survival DI isn't safe on knee until 70%. You want to DI combos on center stage down and away (much better than away), and aerial combos that could send you offstage up and away. Down and away offstage kills your recovery options.

 

[Diosama]

I'll see what I can do. CCing is something I always forget about. Also, about using up-air to approach (from the last time I posted), I can't get it to work. I'm simply not able to flick the c-stick quick enough. Are late up-airs ok to use as an alternative? At least until I get more time to practice the former. Finals are a *****.

 

[DCW]

Versus the few Puffs I've played against, up-angled ftilt seems to work well to counter bairs. Does this work on higher level Jiggs as well?

Edit: sometimes WL up-angled ftilt, too.

 

[-ACE-]

Diosama that instant uair is definitely important. Keep practicing.

D DCW high ftilt always has its place, but at higher level you'll see a lot of low ftilts too. You have to be patient and use aerials wisely. Reverse uair is actually not totally outdated, it can work well along with bair. Be patient and try not to leave yourself open. Sneaky movement helps.

@PaperstSoapCo what up today?