Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[-ACE-]

tipman doesn't cover pixel perfect sweet spots? Is this side-b sweet spots?

Not horizontally. Porkchops occasionally will side-b so that he's a few pixels away from falling short, and normal tipman spacing fails as he gets the Mario 'esque gimme ledgegrab frames later. But since the center of the dair hitbox is in Ganon's heel it'll cover this option. That it what I mean by only dair. But also, I do not know for sure but I think the lowest possible side-b could be safe from uair.

Clay is so good vs Ganondorf it's insane. He knows the anti-chaingrab meta, the optimized recovery meta, optimized edgeguarding meta, innovative and unique laser pressure specific to the Ganon matchup, innovative mixups where applicable, and practice vs me, Tipman, linguini, and spider_sense. He has 4 stocked Eikelmann... He could 4 stock any Ganon.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

That's ****ing scary as hell. Would lh uair spacing cover that side-b spacing?

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Also I'm thinking about getting netplay. Could I run it on my 1.3 GHz Intel Core i5 Mac with close to no lag online? Everyone with these specs I've read about has only played it locally with no problems, but not really anyone playing with my computer online.

 

[-ACE-]

That's ****ing scary as hell. Would lh uair spacing cover that side-b spacing?

I think so.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Just another reason why getting good at grabbing the ledge fast is important in this meta. I've been practicing pivot wd ff to grab the ledge as quickly as possible from a position where you're facing the ledge. Difficult stuff. We'll see if it pays off at BUST3 this weekend. I got third seed in my pool with two players I can definitely take out ahead of me. And Kage is going to be there so I'll get to take some notes :D

 

[-ACE-]

I want to ditto kage so bad. How we met was hilarious, but he never responded to my texts to meet up and play. Pretty sure he was swamped by fans and top players, and Evo sucked for setup availability. Kage is the man tho for real.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

More Bl@ckChris vids:

 

[-ACE-]

Great dair to usmash. I'm always on the lookout for this, but as many stomps as I use players like porkchops virtually never miss the DI. I'm basically always dashing immediately to fair. Good tomahawk there too, perfect for a big whiff when they're scared.

One more thing I forgot to say about Falco is, when you are dair'd onto a platform, be very selective with techrolls as they give him crucial extra frames to follow up. Try to SDI and ASDI to angle the kb of the dair and then let go to tech in place. From there, you could jab or shield drop uair or just land. You have to mix it up some, but the difference in duration between tech in place and techroll is crucial. You don't want to give him a stock when he only earned a 50% combo.

When you are recovering from far off stage and high up, watch the lasers. If you're spamming down-b you will ASDI them down, ultimately bringing you lower and further limiting your options. If he's shooting 2 lasers at you after you dj/when you go fit the down-b, when you know you won't get the down-b off in time or it'll get interrupted, try to SDI the lasers up before you down-b for more options.

In general, try to space WF so that you can DJ sweetspot ledge. It also helps to know the spacing to go directly to the ledge also. If someone is expecting your WF and definitely going to edgeguard you, but going low would be certain death as well, dj backwards before you wizkick (as long as you can still make it back). Not many people expect this and on YS/FoD you can hardly see it happen. They usually commit to the offstage edgeguard before they realize you're spaced out of their reach. If they planned on using up-b to make it back, you can beat him to the ledge. Got a KO on porkchops this way.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Yo I'm feeling like doing critiques again sometime soon, but I will only do critiques of matches submitted to me. Message me or reply to this post with a video you want to be critiqued and I'll do it on my stream sometime soon. It's been a while since I've done analysis and I think it's time to do some more.

 

[Diosama]

So I've been playing Ganon, and Melee, for 3 months now. 1 thing I find difficult is mixing up my approach. It pretty much narrows down to waveland ftilts and fairs/bairs. Is there more I can do or do I just have a bad habit?
This thread is great btw. (Newtime member, longtime lurker here)

 

[-ACE-]

So I've been playing Ganon, and Melee, for 3 months now. 1 thing I find difficult is mixing up my approach. It pretty much narrows down to waveland ftilts and fairs/bairs. Is there more I can do or do I just have a bad habit?
This thread is great btw. (Newtime member, longtime lurker here)

Totally depends on matchup.

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

uairs are really good and keep you safe. if you do them as soon as you take off from your jump itll hit a spacie standing infront of you. with that in mind know that when you shff it you wont get any lag giving you a mix up and approach

 

[Diosama]

uairs are really good and keep you safe. if you do them as soon as you take off from your jump itll hit a spacie standing infront of you. with that in mind know that when you shff it you wont get any lag giving you a mix up and approach

Never thought to do that, but it totally makes sense considering the move's speed and range. Does the hitbox really come out in time though?

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

look up superdoodlemans frame data on ganon. it goes uair/nair/bair/fair/dair as for fastest to slowest aerial. it comes out frame 6 if im right. trying running up and pressing jump when youre in range to hit with the front of the uair but as soon as you press jump press and hold back on the joystick before you get off the ground. youll get a strong di back as long as when you got into the air you were already holding back. this creates hitting shields and avoid getting shield grabbed and you will either have the option to dj if you want or land with regular land lag.

 

[Diosama]

Damn, Ganon sure is flexible

Definitely gonna apply this, thanks

 

[Bwmat]

Won a local today, only lost 1 match in pools/bracket, played unusually well (though mike li didn't attend to take me out lol)
http://www.twitch.tv/sydq/v/27012044?t=03h08m29s vs syd (fox/marth)
http://www.twitch.tv/sydq/v/27012044?t=04h01m09s vs webwipe (jiggly)
http://www.twitch.tv/sydq/v/27012044?t=04h22m31s vs lev (fox), also a bunch of friendlies with espi afterwards.
http://www.twitch.tv/sydq/v/27012044?t=05h23m47s vs webwipe (jiggly/fox) in GFs. LOL @ him going fox on yoshi's against me, he regretted that one.

there's a few MMs after, but I'll nominate http://www.twitch.tv/sydq/v/27012044?t=05h40m54s (vs espi) to have Locke critique, if he wants. Can't beat that kid.
the stream's kind of laggy but w/e

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Kotn4 is going well so far. Got first in my pool because I upset the first seed. Guy's named chexr I think. Falco player and #2 player in Minnesota.

Two crew battles: got rid of Abu's last two stocks and took two more stocks off a fox in the first crew battle. Took 8 stocks in the second one, lol ended up eating through their last two guys. Probably could've taken a few more seeing as I ended up with two at the end.

Cool thing is, we're getting flown out to Ontario and if we beat the Ontario crews (RIP coast), we get free flights to Genesis. We in there!

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

That's dope that all the homies are doing well, me tho, i'm having a horrible time playing Ganon right now, and feel like a break from the savage will hopefully help me miss em. I'm opting to go Falcon for awhile until i'm out of this Ganon rut. I legit lay in my bed and think sometimes "I just don't wanna play Ganon". I don't even play foo in friendlies with my homies anymore.

 

[-ACE-]

That's dope that all the homies are doing well, me tho, i'm having a horrible time playing Ganon right now, and feel like a break from the savage will hopefully help me miss em. I'm opting to go Falcon for awhile until i'm out of this Ganon rut. I legit lay in my bed and think sometimes "I just don't wanna play Ganon". I don't even play foo in friendlies with my homies anymore. Hopefully a Ganon does some flames *** **** in a tourney to change my mentality, even a lil. #20gt

Come to vs today if you can, I'll rekindle the purple flame. Show you some broken ****.

Did better vs porkchops yesterday, I bet I won 25%. I remember at one point KO's were 100 to 61. We were both going ham, I need to record some stuff.

I prevented him from getting his third 4 stock in the craziest way possible. YS, no timer. I flub and somehow accidentally do an immediate dash sh turnaround warlock punch offstage, I look down and smile knowing I'm done, and suddenly Randall comes out of nowhere. Just as I look up, I see clay going for what he thought was the final nail in my coffin with a suicide dair, only to be met by the purple fist of doom. Took a break after that one.

I can be so relentless with the cg when I'm on. UGH I wish I could do it every time lol. Finished him once 70% to death (ftilt at 115% near edge to finish), and got a lot of profit off uthrow traps. When you uthrow trap someone, keep in mind they can cancel stun with an edge cancel if they have good DI and get away. They'll usually dj aerial once they get the cancel.

B Bwmat nice man I'll check those out later

 

[RedmanSSBM]

there's a few MMs after, but I'll nominate http://www.twitch.tv/sydq/v/27012044?t=05h40m54s (vs espi) to have Locke critique, if he wants. Can't beat that kid.
the stream's kind of laggy but w/e

I strongly prefer YouTube videos over doing Twitch because of slow mo and easy tools to use the video, but if you really can't get the video on youtube, then I'll do it on Twitch.

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

I work 2day

 

[X WaNtEd X]

BUST was totally a bust for me. I got 2-0'd by both the people I wanted to beat in my pool. One of them I had really close games with that could've gone either way, so I'm a little salty about that loss. I lost the second game to this guy because I did getup attack instead of ledgedrop uair by accident. And he grabbed ledge and punished me to kill me for it. So I got third in my pool, bopping all the other mediocre players. The way seeding worked was top two go to pro bracket, three to four go to intermediate bracket, give to six go to amateur bracket, seven to 8 go to BUSTer bracket.

To make matters worse, Kage cancels so I miss out on all the warrior action. Then in intermediate bracket, I get put up against my homie round 2. He's a Sheik player, and usually has the upper hand against me. But he played like **** and I wound up beating him. It's the worst feeling to beat someone you're friends with when they are playing bad. It's like kicking someone on the ground. Of course, I didn't hold back, but it sucked.

I guess all of that left a bad taste in my mouth so I just didn't want to compete in intermediate bracket anymore. I ****ed around until I lost in the following three rounds. My thinking was this way I could go play against good players for experience. But I wound up getting even more angry. Every good player I tried to play against just straight up refused to play me or mm me. Or they would not play their main and I would get practice equivalent to that of like any of the assholes in the room I could've gone to. It's kind of opened my eyes to how players these days are not there to help you get better. Everyone is out for themselves. Or maybe the people in my region just suck. I can't decide which one it is.

 

[-ACE-]

Every good player I tried to play against just straight up refused to play me or mm me. Or they would not play their main and I would get practice equivalent to that of like any of the ******** in the room I could've gone to. It's kind of opened my eyes to how players these days are not there to help you get better. Everyone is out for themselves. Or maybe the people in my region just suck. I can't decide which one it is.

No this is world wide. Can't stand it personally, and it's actually one of the reasons why I post so much stuff here, just because I had to figure out so much **** on my own and wanted to share any info I got ahold of. Usually mm's do the trick, but some people just get so pretentious as soon as they get to high level or even close lol, it sucks lol. Just play!

 

[X WaNtEd X]

I appreciate what you do here ace. I've also largely learned this game on my own. If I get to a high level I'm making it my goal not to let my ego get so big.

Everyone in my region talks a lot about "improving as a region" to the point where it's literally a meme in our Facebook group. But few go out of their way to help others improve, hold smash fests open to the public, etc. It's sad to hear it's like that in other regions too. I feel like the community needs a wake-up call.

I wish I was as good as I am now two to three years ago when everyone wasn't so pretentious. Would've made improving so much easier. Unfortunately, I was too much of a scrub to truly take advantage of my opportunities. And now that I can, I have few people to play against that will push me. Fortunately, I did reconnect with a hidden boss Marth/Fox at this tournament so I'll be able to train with him from time-to-time.

 

[tm]

Got 7th at Feat. PGH Carroll in Pittsburgh yesterday. Lost to KJH and Juggleguy, who I drove there with lol. Not really any good wins tho. Beat a few salty wobblers. Here are some funny friendlies with Carroll and another guy http://www.twitch.tv/pghneohsmash/v/26940737?t=5h37m30s

 

[-ACE-]

Thanks bro. Yeah I hear that. I'm pretty lucky to have the players I have around me currently. Versus is going to start flying top players (non-gods from what I hear) into monthlies soon. @Divinokage has my vote lol.

tm kjh is so good now lol

 

[-ACE-]

Had a bye, beat a Falco bad, lost to prof's sheik again, got 3 stocked (super high%, couldn't close it out) on DL, gave him free grabs via accidental fsmash twice and one off a missed wL. Flubbed edgeguards too. Game 2 on BF I was about to do a textbook edgeguard to even it 1 stock each, and I hit forward to stand up I just.... dropped. Lol. He got me. I manhandled a fox and a Marth 2-0 and then lost 2-1 to a peach. Probably the beer tbh, I was going in too much in neutral. My punish game is recently stronger, I 2 stocked him on BF and got 1 stocked super close game 1. Game 3 I got 2 stocked on PS. Def attacking too much. The larger stages are helping people find holes in my neutral before I can get that sweet grab or stomp. I also need to respect peach's dash attack more lol.

Edit: starting to love the spacies matchup, especially fox. Sounds crazy but the punish game is too brutal and too fun.

 

[Bwmat]

I love playing against spacies who don't know the matchup lol, the punishes are so hard.

 

[-ACE-]

Even good ones. Techchasing baby

 

[X WaNtEd X]

You guys would be surprised by the number of people that drop wobbles if you mash hard enough. It's a combination of a lack of practice and nerves from them hearing your mash your controller. Never give up!

 

[Bwmat]

yeah but good ones make getting that grab/hit so hard

 

[Bwmat]

I strongly prefer YouTube videos over doing Twitch because of slow mo and easy tools to use the video, but if you really can't get the video on youtube, then I'll do it on Twitch.

Do you know of a good tool to 'rip" stuff off of twitch onto youtube?

 

[Superspright]

I need to practice my melee.

Had a bye, beat a Falco bad, lost to prof's sheik again, got 3 stocked (super high%, couldn't close it out) on DL, gave him free grabs via accidental fsmash twice and one off a missed wL. Flubbed edgeguards too. Game 2 on BF I was about to do a textbook edgeguard to even it 1 stock each, and I hit forward to stand up I just.... dropped. Lol. He got me. I manhandled a fox and a Marth 2-0 and then lost 2-1 to a peach. Probably the beer tbh, I was going in too much in neutral. My punish game is recently stronger, I 2 stocked him on BF and got 1 stocked super close game 1. Game 3 I got 2 stocked on PS. Def attacking too much. The larger stages are helping people find holes in my neutral before I can get that sweet grab or stomp. I also need to respect peach's dash attack more lol.

Edit: starting to love the spacies matchup, especially fox. Sounds crazy but the punish game is too brutal and too fun.

On peach's lame dash attack: Dash attack through it, or just be ready to CC/Shield but only do it for a moment otherwise you'll get chewed up by the glorious dsmash. I don't fear dash attack anymore. They usually use it when they are flustered and can't get through the wall or make you spaz out and whiff a grab or something. Grab is hard to get in that matchup if they are really wary of it.

 

[-ACE-]

I just need to practice vs peach lol. One thing that is simple is that I should just fade back my aerials more. It's just a byproduct of not playing against a good peach since dop like 6 years ago lmao, I just need to respect her range more. Elliot is mad good but I haven't played him that much. I'm gonna try to train with him soon

Edit: I might try AC bair to pivot shield or dash back very briefly and shield, to bait the dash attack and shieldgrab it.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Learning on your own is so incredibly hard especially with such a bad character like Ganondorf. Just this past weekend in my city there was a big tournament where one of the Fox mains upset another Fox main and almost beat another up and coming Sheik/Luigi who upset Stingers. Yung Saef (Seth) is his tag. He told me he gets a lot of practice against both $mike and Ronzell in Greensboro and so he has gotten as a player because of it.

On the otherhand with myself, I am not able to get that kind of training on a regular basis. Most of my practice I get outside of tournaments is with our PRed Puff player, Sprankles, and BLMB, who mains Falco and sometimes plays Fox. Sprankles is very good at both the Falcon and Ganon matchups so it's really been a challenge to try to defeat him, even in friendlies. I have yet to play him in tournament and I don't know when I ever will. He plays so defensively and campy that it can be a real test of my patience, but I always try to learn from playing whenever I play him. Still, even then, I only try to play with them maybe once a week. I can't dedicate so much time to practicing with other people cause LOL college.

It's weird though. Sprankles is in the same year as I am and he's even in one of my classes this semester, but he's just gotten so good in the last year and a half. I don't want to say it's Puff but part of me believes that because there aren't many really good Puff mains around. It's really strange that he keeps losing to Peaches yet gives even the best Falcons and Foxes in NC a hard time. Maybe he puts in more effort than me. Maybe he theorycrafts literally all of the time. Maybe he dedicates way more time and doesn't have other life priorities that I have. Either way, what he's been able to do is impressive, and leaves me a bit envious. I'm not gonna give up or anything, and I know it's not really a good idea to compare yourself to others, but I can find some inspiration in that, and maybe have a bit more peace of mind and understand the situation I'm in and just let it ride instead of moping about it every once in a while.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Yea, the whole top player mentality is really ****ty. I will say though, that a lot of them aren't doing it to be conceited, but that they're just doing it to practice their secondaries or maybe they're tired of people swarming them. I've met my fair share of cool top players and assholes. Just depends on their overall personality IMO.

Anyway, I got 13th at Kings of the North.
Notable wins:

I 2-0'd my boy PRZ (sucks we had to play) to get into top 16. He went sheik then fox. I got some of the coolest grabs on his fox, I really wish it was recorded. Haven't beaten him in months, so that felt good.
2-0'd chexr in pools.
2-1 vs kels in a money match (his marth).

All the other wins, I was supposed to have, so no big deal I guess. Top 16 is legit though for such a stacked tournament, but I really wanted that top 8. I lost to Vro in winner's side (absolutely bodied LOL) and then Inui in loser's (2-1). Inui plays lame as **** and as sheik, that's how you fight ganon. One grab and I was legitimately dead every single time. I truly believe I am much better at smash than he is, but he's good at sheik. 80-20 matchup. I know what I did wrong to get grabbed, but it's frustrating.

What REALLY sucks is that if I had beaten him, I would've played G$ for top 8. I know it doesn't mean much, but I played him in a friendly and won - and he plays two of my best matchups. Very possible. Next time, I got him.

Overall, good tournament, I def feel like I leveled up. **** sheik.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

B Bwmat Try https://nightdev.com/twitchdown/ or http://download.twitchapps.com/

 

[-ACE-]

AC bair pivot shield to shieldgrab dash attack worked twice vs Elliot tonight over 3 sets. I lost 2-1, 2-1, 2-0. Set 2 was mine, SD lol. Retreating more with my aerials really paid off, I was just flubbing **** like last night. Flubbed the dash on dthrow at 64% for DI away. You have to be fast but you can walk or dash (for only a few frames) and immediately usmash for full DI away. Abusing AC bair and patiently hunting for free uairs worked a good bit. Tipman spike with perfect spacing still eating/trading with peach up-b at ledge just fine. Approaching with perfect wL to bair can be good. And tomahawks. I'm pretty much SDI/ASDI'ing everything away and teching away whenever I possibly can. Elliot said he's never seen a Ganon escape dair to nair as quickly as I did tonight. Got SDI input down on basically phantom hit spacing of the first hitbox of her dair and was able to punish dair with up-b. Got some good cc grabs and one ASDI in grab, and I gave the dash attack gobs of respect lmao. Catching almost all turnips and throwing them down into ff uair or wL, abusing empty sh perfect wL and shield pokes through platforms. Edgeguard options from ledgehop surprise her, as well as analog double jumps from perfect wavelands on platforms into bair/uair.

/ramble

This is just a matchup of spacing. You have to prove you're more familiar with peach's options than they are with Ganon's. This is why I'm currently struggling. Peach weakness (rust) exposed.

 

[-ACE-]

I missed a few opportunities to throw the turnip down and tomahawk. Twice the turnip hit his shield so he was already under me. I think I did the classic uair L-cancel to buffer roll lol.

Gonna go fishing later and probably get some games in with porkchops, I'll see if I can record something on my phone

EDIT: Recorded the first 5 matches, got bodied the first 3 until I got warm and used to the pressure. Coming soon. Oh and we caught like 5 bass each lol.

 

[-FEMTO-]

I'm never going Sheik again in tournament. From now on it's 100% Ganon.