Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
11,534
Location
The back country, GA

Diosama

Stand User
Premium
Joined
Nov 20, 2015
Messages
309
Location
Montreal, QC
Man, you ****ed that first guy up, for real. Good ****. The other guy played really well, but was also kinda predictable since he was playing Fox like Falco. You flubbed an edgeguard once or twice, so just make sure you always punish their side b, on stage or towards the ledge.

Side note: How practical is jc upsmash oos? A friend of mine showed it to me at school the other day and I think it's pretty good for punishing missed l-cancels
 

PseudoTurtle

Smash Champion
Joined
Nov 29, 2011
Messages
2,162
Location
Champaign, Il. Chicago in summer.
What do I do in the Ganon/Puff match up? I just played a guy online and I got one kill from a rest punish and one from a bair in neutral, but other than that I got bodied.
I'm still pretty bad at the matchup, but I find that approaching is usually a bad move. You have to read your opponent's movement super well and punish accordingly. There are certain positions you occasionally find yourself in that give you the upper hand, but it's all about reaction.

For example, if a puff is in shield, chances are they're gonna wavedash out or jump out. You can cover wavedash / jump away with a fair and you can avoid jump / wavedash towards with a double jump and maybe punish with a bair. Idk, it's hard to explain, the spacing in this matchup is super weird.

This is a crew battle of me vs prince abu (#2 puff in the world, or so he claims). Not like I played super well or anything, but I think the matchup was played correctly. Lots of patience, lots of lame stuff. Weird spacing.

I know this sounds like a joke, but hit your V-cancels on your recovery. I'm not 100% on this, but I think that V-canceling saved me from getting baired to death on my second stock (got fsmashed after, though...). Very good vs puff.

edit: almost forgot - crouch cancel is super good in this mu. You can cc into dtilt / jab at low % (can lead to up air) and even cc into down-b for a kill at high-mid %.

and can someone tell me WHY IN THE **** the grab at 1:52:54 whiffed? It was such a good grab, too...
 
Last edited:

Oldiz

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 15, 2015
Messages
125
I met a really good puff (Tekk) at Dreamhack, which were played on stream. I went falcon 1st game because i had practiced it quite a bit, and switched to ganon because he banned fd, which actually worked out pretty well.
http://www.twitch.tv/dreamhacksmash/v/27869609?t=9h1m30s
Please share your thoughts of my play this set, I'm very happy with my performance at Dreamhack as I've played competitively only half a year.
 
Joined
Mar 24, 2009
Messages
1,647
Location
Lowell, MA
I met a really good puff (Tekk) at Dreamhack, which were played on stream. I went falcon 1st game because i had practiced it quite a bit, and switched to ganon because he banned fd, which actually worked out pretty well.
http://www.twitch.tv/dreamhacksmash/v/27869609?t=9h1m30s
Please share your thoughts of my play this set, I'm very happy with my performance at Dreamhack as I've played competitively only half a year.
I think you played well for someone that's only played that long. Not to write off your performance, but I don't think there are many good Ganon mains in Europe, so he probably is not very polished in the matchup.

Anyway, I think you have good intuitive spacing vs. Puff. You need to work on your movement and develop as many ledge options as possible. The Puff matchup is all about walling Puff out and getting grabs and low percent dairs. Those are your many ways to start combos. Because of the lack of combos and edgeguarding in that matchup, you should prioritize putting damage on Puff over putting her offstage. If you get that low percent dair, you should dair again as a followup. Speaking of which, getting a dair above Puff when she's in the air is great because you get a tech chase situation out of it.

There were a few times where you could've gotten grabs after crouch canceling a weak move but didn't. So just remember to prioritize getting grabs in that matchup. But be careful, because Puff can crouch under you and rest if you whiff a grab like that. That's why movement is really important in this matchup; you have to be really tricky and read when they will shield.

Sorry if you knew some of this already. But I figured someone else reading this might not. Anyway, good stuff!
 

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
11,534
Location
The back country, GA
Lost to the same 2 guys again. This time I outplayed both and choked, lol. Prof I had down to last stock and kill% both times, dropped chaingrabs twice each game. Against the peach, barely lost game 1, losing some crucial exchanges against his nair, then I won solid on bf again, and game 3 on fod I was up a full stock and SD'd twice lmao. Buster status. There's a set of me vs sheik where I win on steam, but I played like ass compared to how I played vs Prof. Controller wouldn't smash turn left so I had to uthrow some, good lord lol. Ganon, I will not let you down.
 

spider_sense

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 25, 2007
Messages
2,295
Location
Miami, FL (Ives Dairy)
Lost to the same 2 guys again. This time I outplayed both and choked, lol. Prof I had down to last stock and kill% both times, dropped chaingrabs twice each game. Against the peach, barely lost game 1, losing some crucial exchanges against his nair, then I won solid on bf again, and game 3 on fod I was up a full stock and SD'd twice lmao. Buster status. There's a set of me vs sheik where I win on steam, but I played like *** compared to how I played vs Prof. Controller wouldn't smash turn left so I had to uthrow some, good lord lol. Ganon, I will not let you down.
Don't worry bro; we'll figure this sheik fukkery out.
 

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
11,534
Location
The back country, GA
Don't worry bro; we'll figure this sheik fukkery out.
If I had an hour to sit down and play him I think I could adapt a lot more, playing him is my one set of sheik practice per week lol. Probably the main reason I dropped such an easy cg. I literally had him beat too, ****. Let's practice sheik against each other until we either quit making mistakes or get good enough to sheik ditto these deutch bagels.
 

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
11,534
Location
The back country, GA
Where do I try to take Peach game 1 of a set? It's always either Dreamland, FoD or FD, and they all suck.
Depends on where you feel most comfortable. I've been striking to DL64 lately, purposely, to force myself to work on my neutral. I don't think any of those stages are horrible. At top level peach's camping on DL is hard to deal with. But you're going to have to play her on one of those. At least you get to choose?
 

-FEMTO-

Smash Rookie
Joined
Apr 7, 2015
Messages
13
Location
Sweden
NNID
HappySalesman
Depends on where you feel most comfortable. I've been striking to DL64 lately, purposely, to force myself to work on my neutral. I don't think any of those stages are horrible. At top level peach's camping on DL is hard to deal with. But you're going to have to play her on one of those. At least you get to choose?
That's the thing, I don't feel comfortable on any of those three stages vs Peach. I'm all about movement, and that gets crippled on FD and FoD. I really love playing on Dreamland, however against Peach I just don't seem to have the patience with her living forever and to have to constantly edgeguard her insane recovery (same goes for Puff). I've been striking to FoD for that reason, but I never feel confident going in.
 
Joined
Mar 24, 2009
Messages
1,647
Location
Lowell, MA
That's the thing, I don't feel comfortable on any of those three stages vs Peach. I'm all about movement, and that gets crippled on FD and FoD. I really love playing on Dreamland, however against Peach I just don't seem to have the patience with her living forever and to have to constantly edgeguard her insane recovery (same goes for Puff). I've been striking to FoD for that reason, but I never feel confident going in.
Practice your movement on FoD more then. I always strike there when it's a choice between those three stages. If you can move around well on it, it's great because you get kills sooner and you can control the stage easier with your massive hitboxes. It's like a worse version of Yoshi's. You don't want Peach to have enough space to pull turnips, so DL and FD are pretty bad. Even Pokemon is pretty bad because the transformations can separate you and she can just start pulling turnips until she gets a stitch.

When it comes down to bans, though, I think it really depends on what type of Peach you're playing. If they have any sense, they will pick either FD or DL depending on what you ban. So ban one of those stages depending on how you guys are playing. Are you getting openings from the ground often? How long are they living? How long are you living? How much are the platforms benefiting you? These are the types of things that will decide which stage is the lesser of the two evils.
 

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
11,534
Location
The back country, GA
^ agreed 100%. I like FoD a lot vs peach, possibly even more than battlefield. Small walls are good (obv), and high ceiling bad. Platforms can be a problem for obvious reasons, but it's not that hard to just not put yourself in that position IMO.
I'm just going to start CP'ing that stage, **** it, gotta learn it somehow. Not just vs Peach lol
 
Last edited:

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
11,534
Location
The back country, GA
Dreamland is the most overrated stage for ganon. What good is being able to survive longer when your recovery is as predictable as Ganon's?
So true. Ganon doesn't live forever when your opponent can edgeguard. The stage easily exploits Ganons bad neutral game. Jumping to a platform is a bigger commitment than other stages. It has a lot of good points also. But overrated, definitely.
 

PseudoTurtle

Smash Champion
Joined
Nov 29, 2011
Messages
2,162
Location
Champaign, Il. Chicago in summer.
So true, Duel. I only cp DL in certain situations. If I feel like my opponent is aggressive and I can't breathe on, say, yoshi's story, then I may go to DL. Even vs Marth, I prefer yoshi's. The whole ganon living forever thing is fine, but now that even mid-level players in 2015 can edge guard, what good is it? If I'm off stage as ganon, I'm basically not getting back on.

Dave, as far as FoD goes, I think it's great in some matchups. Good vs spacies depending on style. Grounded fox is harder than platform-campy fox on FoD in my opinion. I never take marth there if I can help it because the low platforms can screw with your up air spikes (not as big a problem vs spacies because you have other tools to edge guard).
 

Duel

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 3, 2013
Messages
167
So true, Duel. I only cp DL in certain situations. If I feel like my opponent is aggressive and I can't breathe on, say, yoshi's story, then I may go to DL. Even vs Marth, I prefer yoshi's. The whole ganon living forever thing is fine, but now that even mid-level players in 2015 can edge guard, what good is it? If I'm off stage as ganon, I'm basically not getting back on.

Dave, as far as FoD goes, I think it's great in some matchups. Good vs spacies depending on style. Grounded fox is harder than platform-campy fox on FoD in my opinion. I never take marth there if I can help it because the low platforms can screw with your up air spikes (not as big a problem vs spacies because you have other tools to edge guard).
Getting good on FoD seems to be the best way to win BO3's against spacies, peach, puff, falcon if he lets you go there, maybe even sheik.
 

X WaNtEd X

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 24, 2009
Messages
1,647
Location
Lowell, MA
Spacies? On your cp you should be going yoshi's or bf every time unless you know they suck on fod.

Against sheik...yoshi's, maybe bf, and get a secondary. for everything else. Seriously, there's no shame in this in the year 2015.
 

PseudoTurtle

Smash Champion
Joined
Nov 29, 2011
Messages
2,162
Location
Champaign, Il. Chicago in summer.
Spacies? On your cp you should be going yoshi's or bf every time unless you know they suck on fod.

Against sheik...yoshi's, maybe bf, and get a secondary. for everything else. Seriously, there's no shame in this in the year 2015.
How about when you won game 1 on battlefield and they ban yoshis? Yea, FoD is my go to choice. Dreamland vs campy fox is an absolute nightmare.

Yup, working on a sheik right now just to counterpick sheiks. No more playing ganon against sheik, it's just too aggravating. At least the fox matchup is fun lol
 

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
11,534
Location
The back country, GA
As much as I use dair, FoD should have been appealing to me much sooner. I really like pressuring people with dair through the plats there and on YS.

PseudoTurtle PseudoTurtle thoughts on FoD marth counterpick? Falcon? ****ing jiggs? Lol. I now see that's basically what duel said.
 
Last edited:

Divinokage

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 6, 2006
Messages
16,250
Location
Montreal, Quebec
Well last weekend we had a major canadian tourney with N0ne, Vwins, The moon, DJ, Ryan Ford, Sauc3, Saus, Chesterr01 and I actually managed to finish 2nd. I finally beat my 2nd demon (Unknown) after so long but I got styled on vs The moon in GF. I felt distraught in GF after game 2 first set i'd say. I also always forget to Marth killer when Marth cannot DJ on the ledge. So.. I think if the Ganons wants to beat the top Foxes now, everyone will need to be on point with PS attacks into jab to disrupt Fox's approach.. you'll definitely also need to CG him after a CC from his nair. I managed to get 3-4 reps of the downthrow and it really helps a lot for the momentum to get quicker kills since playing neutral vs Fox is always terrible. Ill try my best to maximize the punish game from now on... I dont see why i always refused to learn everything from the get go. Perhaps I thought it was too hard or something but now i feel more technical and more consistent since summit so its easier to see what the opponent is looking for.
 

X WaNtEd X

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 24, 2009
Messages
1,647
Location
Lowell, MA
Congrats Kage! I hope those vids get uploaded soon.

How about when you won game 1 on battlefield and they ban yoshis? Yea, FoD is my go to choice. Dreamland vs campy fox is an absolute nightmare.

Yup, working on a sheik right now just to counterpick sheiks. No more playing ganon against sheik, it's just too aggravating. At least the fox matchup is fun lol
In that situation I agree.
 

X WaNtEd X

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 24, 2009
Messages
1,647
Location
Lowell, MA
So recently I've been doing even more platform work with running shield drops. For those that know what I'm talking about and why these are good, skip the next two paragraphs. For those that don't know what I'm talking about, click the spoiler.

For those that are unfamiliar, this is when you shield for one frame and drop through a platform out of it. When you shield drop, you fall through a platform faster than you normally would. So this offers you the benefit of being able to drop through a platform out of a dash, and you drop through quicker than you normally would. Being able to go through a platform out of a dash is the more important benefit here, though.

What do you get out of this? Well, you get the options you normally get out of dropping through a platform. Only you get to decide exactly where on the platform you drop through. Wavelanding and wavedashing into an immediate drop through is similar to this, but less precise or quick. These options are:

1. Your aerials
2. Waveland
3. Double jump
4. Up-b

So I've been practicing all of this a lot, including my options out of double jump and waveland after doing a running shield drop. All I'm going to say on that is you should all practice that stuff if you're serious about improving your movement. Being really good at wavelands is one thing, but everyone sees that **** coming these days. No one expects this ****. **** is godlike. I'll do a more in-depth post on that stuff and why it's good some other time.

What I really wanted to talk about were the aerials. These are the aerials you can get out of a running shield drop on the lower platforms before touching the ground on all relevant stages:

BF: Everything
DL: Everything
Yoshi's: Everything but dair
Pokemon neutral: Everything but dair
FoD: Some platforms you can get nothing out. Some platforms you can get only uair and nair out. There are some heights that allow for everything but fair and dair. There are some heights allow for everything but dair. And there are some heights that allow for everything.

After a lot of practice, I can get everything that's possible out on all stages. The next step is consistency. Uair and nair are really easy. I can do bair consistently on my right side. Left side is consistent everywhere but Yoshi's/pokemon. Fair is consistent on my right side. Left side isn't close at all. Dair is somewhat consistent. Although it's the hardest to time, you just have to slam down on the c-stick, which is easier than flicking it to the right or left.
 

Diosama

Stand User
Premium
Joined
Nov 20, 2015
Messages
309
Location
Montreal, QC
Well last weekend we had a major canadian tourney with N0ne, Vwins, The moon, DJ, Ryan Ford, Sauc3, Saus, Chesterr01 and I actually managed to finish 2nd. I finally beat my 2nd demon (Unknown) after so long but I got styled on vs The moon in GF. I felt distraught in GF after game 2 first set i'd say. I also always forget to Marth killer when Marth cannot DJ on the ledge. So.. I think if the Ganons wants to beat the top Foxes now, everyone will need to be on point with PS attacks into jab to disrupt Fox's approach.. you'll definitely also need to CG him after a CC from his nair. I managed to get 3-4 reps of the downthrow and it really helps a lot for the momentum to get quicker kills since playing neutral vs Fox is always terrible. Ill try my best to maximize the punish game from now on... I dont see why i always refused to learn everything from the get go. Perhaps I thought it was too hard or something but now i feel more technical and more consistent since summit so its easier to see what the opponent is looking for.
Yo Kage, mind practicing with me downtown at the weeklies? I'll be going to all of them once my school semester finishes. gj at getting 2nd at si2, wish I coulda gone
 

PseudoTurtle

Smash Champion
Joined
Nov 29, 2011
Messages
2,162
Location
Champaign, Il. Chicago in summer.
-ACE- -ACE- I think FoD is good against falcon because of the small stage aspect. Yoshi's and FoD are always good picks in the mu IMO. While platform heights screw you up, they also screw up the falcon, so that's kinda negated. The only thing I don't like about it is that I like to be as lame as possible when edge guarding falcon and just stay on stage and up air. On FoD, this doesn't work because the mid-height platforms screw up your up airs. Just think about falcon's recovery choices etc and go out and get him. A little more risky, but just as effective. You can't let a falcon back on stage. Not with that neutral game.

For jiggs, I don't have much experience in the matchup, but I'm learning it bit by bit now that prince abu and Mr. F are in Chicago. I like it. I think it may be up there with yoshi's as far as counterpicks go. Nice, techable walls, small horizontal blast zones, and the platforms aren't usually a problem. At the same height that jiggs can up tilt through the platform, you can stomp and it'll hit. Only obvious problem is the high ceiling. If you get rested, your go-to should be a stomp to trade stocks and that isn't always the case here.

Marth on FoD is my least favorite after FD. I might be biased because Ripple almost JV5'd me on the stage when I first started playing (7% baby let's gooooo), but I always seem to have trouble on this stage against marth. Edge guarding is hard, and the platform heights make up tilts and fsmashes stupid free for marth. You could fake out the timing with a double jump stomp or whatever, but it's not worth the risk IMO especially if you don't have your jump afterwards.

I'm not crazy about the stage vs falco tbh, but 99% of falcos tend to hate it, so I'll just take them there anyway, if it was the 1st / 2nd ban when stage striking (pay attention to this). That's just me.

Divinokage Divinokage congrats on 2nd though. Looks like moon got his revenge, huh? Yea, it's good you're thinking of the marth killer though lol I remember watching you vs moon at big house and seeing how many missed opportunities you had to use it. Read Ace's edge guarding thread, I found the section vs marth to be particularly useful. If they land on stage, just dthrow into bair. Reset situation. I think you can probably just react to them teching, too, if they're at that % where they tech on a platform.

Glad to hear you're finally gonna start being more technical LOL we've been saying it for years. Your spacing and option selects are already the best right now, all you need is that tech to open up more possibilities, specifically defensive ones. I also don't see you do the shield DI as much, or maybe I'm missing it? All I know is that it works on the likes of KJH, Kels, and SFAT, so it's legit, even against fox (but more so against falco).
 

PseudoTurtle

Smash Champion
Joined
Nov 29, 2011
Messages
2,162
Location
Champaign, Il. Chicago in summer.
-ACE- -ACE- what's the input for that tilt at 1:28? It looks like you pivoted before the tilt even came out? Tipman does this, too, with his pivot jabs. He actually just pivots and stops momentum before jab comes out.

When I pivot ftilt, I do this:
:GCR:
:GCL:+:GCA:

Only one frame. But it looks like I just straight up pivot with the ftilt instead of pivoting, stopping momentum, then ftilting. I'd like to know how to do this way
 
Top