Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

Linguini

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 17, 2006
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Weston, Florida
Been mad busy these days with work, haven't had a chance to play in like a month lol, the motivation is still there I just gotta find the time to train somehow. Doesn't help that the weeklies around here end at 1 am sunday night lmfao

Poor kage vs those sheiks...at least I don't feel bad about getting triple 3 stocked by m2k anymore LOL. That set vs alex19 was hilarious though kagester, he was lookin like an 08 fox vs ganon rofl
 

zluke777

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 25, 2015
Messages
1
I have a question about pivots, i have been practicing pivots, and can't seem to get pivot --> f-tilt. I get that you have to move it not all the way for the f-tilt, but I get a dash attack. Any tips or help for me?
 

PseudoTurtle

Smash Champion
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Champaign, Il. Chicago in summer.
I have a question about pivots, i have been practicing pivots, and can't seem to get pivot --> f-tilt. I get that you have to move it not all the way for the f-tilt, but I get a dash attack. Any tips or help for me?
If you're getting dash attack, you're pressing a too early / late (depending on the direction of the dash attack).
 

spider_sense

Smash Champion
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Miami, FL (Ives Dairy)
I have a question about pivots, i have been practicing pivots, and can't seem to get pivot --> f-tilt. I get that you have to move it not all the way for the f-tilt, but I get a dash attack. Any tips or help for me?
Pivot jabs require you to flick the stick in the opposite direction as fast as you can. Pivot tilts require that you slightly slow down your speed. (I.E think Guild's sonic boom motion if you ever played SF) If you're forward smashing alot then it means you're doing it way too fast (which is good but obviously not what you want) but it'll help you recognize the timing for it.
 
Joined
Mar 24, 2009
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Lowell, MA
TO11 losers round 6: Gravy (CF) vs druggedfox (Sheik)

http://youtu.be/2-RKJJFDBdA?t=4m12s

4:14 pivot shield drop, **** is sick.

Shoutouts to the commentators saying absolutely nothing lol. I think they were watching df.
I remember Gravy telling me when we were both in upstate that he was going to master pivot shield drops. Back then i thought that was some insane bad**** crazy tech that only a madman would learn.

Now, he does that **** quite often. A good number of players are incorporating that stuff into their gameplay, which is both cool and daunting.
 

Lazzarrath

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 16, 2010
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31
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Oregon, USA
What's the best way to deal with really technical foxes? Specifically I have a lot of trouble versus run-up shine and shine-grab. I managed to get a PR falco down to last stock both games and then I played a fox who 4-stocks me afterwards by just getting in my face repeatedly with his tech skill and continuously jumping out with shine to edge-guard. I feel like I need to double jump out and up and then up+b to make it back, but it seemed like he could still cover it and force a repeat scenario until he got the kill.
 

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
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What's the best way to deal with really technical foxes? Specifically I have a lot of trouble versus run-up shine and shine-grab. I managed to get a PR falco down to last stock both games and then I played a fox who 4-stocks me afterwards by just getting in my face repeatedly with his tech skill and continuously jumping out with shine to edge-guard. I feel like I need to double jump out and up and then up+b to make it back, but it seemed like he could still cover it and force a repeat scenario until he got the kill.
Porkchops will do the same thing to me with fox. Once Fox is in your face you're in trouble. It's only neutral-ish when fox is at like tipper Ganon ftilt range (generalizing), where he hasn't shut down any of your options yet.

1. Try your best to counter his approach before he gets that close.

2. SDI shine(s)

3. Hold in so that you auto grab ledge if he shines you close to, but not exactly at the ledge.

When you're going to stuff his approach, be selective with ftilt. Fox can bait stuff like that very easily. Take a mental note of what bait he used (did he DD, dash forward wd back, approach w/sh and wL back, etc) and you might be able to surprise him next time he uses it.

Basically you need to upgrade your defensive walls and find out how to pressure him more (gets easier as you download their general style). Try to trick him/bait him by TRULY mixing up your strats in neutral. Things to throw him off include:

-Empty sh to jab or ftilt
-Being able to space your empty sh well, and being able to react with a late uair OR wL before hitting the ground based on what fox does
-DD to retreating AC bair or uair
-NIL instant drop/NIL instant dash + shield drop or pivot shield drop
-dj wL on plat after doing a sh bair or uair
-edge cancels

All I got for now.
 
Joined
Dec 26, 2008
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RedmanSSBM RedmanSSBM

All right, without further ado I am going to critique your game against that peach.

Game 1:
In the very beginning of the match you get hit with a turnip almost immediately and it leads into a follow up. You need to either nair through the combo turnip (a turnip that's thrown to make you catch it and throw it back, or get hit by it and followed up on) or catch and drop it rapidly and attack her. Unless she lobs it from a mile away you have to be ready for it.

You also give up a lot of space to her so she can pull turnips. The only way the matchup gets unfavorable is if she pulls turnips. Otherwise she's not really much of an issue. She feels like a crappier Ganondorf until she lands float-canceled aerials.

You never really used side-b in the matchup, and it's actually pretty good unless your opponent can shield SDI into you. You can follow up into another side-b immediately and most Peaches will just whiff a grab and get punished. Wizkick is underutilized when you know she's going to pull a turnip. It's a hard read, but it can work sometimes.

Mainly I felt you were giving too much respect to her. You also landed a couple of fairs on her shield that got you punished. You might as well forget about fair in the neutral against anyone, but especially her because she can just jump out and bair/nair your fair if it's not PERFECTLY SPACED. Stick to bair/uair/ftilt/side-b and grabs. Grab is the entire matchup. It's free damage, and free follow-up, and pummels reset your moves so you can kill her earlier with the moves you've been staling.

As far as edgeguarding goes you obviously aren't super familiar with it. When she's very very high (about top platform height) do not even **** with her. Shark her. Shark her really hard. She has to land eventually and this is where you meet her with a fast option like uair. If you can condition her shield you can jump up to her and up-b her after she lands [max space it] (she'll go into shield usually or try to dsmash/dash attack if you're too close).

If she's at the first platform height then I'd stick to a really quick fair/bair. But be aware she can fall very fast when she closes the umbrella and interrupt it. So make sure your spacing is on point. I like to sometimes use edge-canceled bair into ledge-grab if she has to either land on the edge of the stage or grab ledge. This often chokes her out.

As far as you recovering you need to concentrate more on hugging the stage and SDI teching. Most Peaches use nair because they are lazy, but good Peaches will use dair/nair or dash attack to solidify the edge-guard.

As far as dair to nair goes just SDI in and down and then when the nair comes you'll be able to tech it. I do this all day long. I've nailed 6+ techs in a row like this. If she has a turnip in hand don't be shocked when she throws it away and grabs ledge after a dair or something. She can edge-guard you really well, and it's not really good to be off stage against her. Recovering very high can sometimes work, but generally it's not that safe.

You never used dash-attack in the neutral either. It beats her dash attack if you time it right. Most Peaches will dash dance around a lot and try to make you whiff then dash attack/grab. It happened a lot to you, and I feel you should be aware of the fact dash attack is a great tool to stop her. Just don't use it liberally.

This matchup is very strange. You need to keep a close eye on her, and keep your distance close enough that she can never pull turnips freely. If you give her room to breathe she'll do whatever she wants and run you over. This matchup is all about zoning. She does it better, but you can zone too. Don't let her feel comfortable. Every Peach I beat I just stifle the **** out of them until they make a flub, or go for a lazy dsmash.

Also, always input the tech as early as possible so you don't get dsmashed/naired to death. You mainly want to do it super early also because of the dair/nair which can **** your tech window if you do it at the dair timing.

Game 2:

You did a lot better here and it seems like you were starting to get the gist of it more. More grabs, even a side-b or two. The only thing you need to take from that game was that you were being very manueverable. That's what she has problems with. Fast characters **** with her. Ganondorf is psuedofast. You have to manipulate the platforms on any stage to beat her. I have a very hard time dealing with my opponents on flat long stages because she can just camp me practically. You fall through the platforms a lot to do bair. You should learn how to waveland out of the platform drop into grab. You conditioned the ever living **** out of him, and didn't really do much with it. Your mental game just needs a touch of work, but I feel like you were playing out of your mind just to get things going in the first place. Peach doesn't have to work as hard as you to get anywhere near as much as what you get.

You definitely did much better in that game, and I'd watch that game for more hints on what you should be doing against this player. Be more cognizant of his patterns/behaviors. He's a pretty solid Peach player. You could definitely learn a lot from playing against him, but the upper echelon of those who play Peach play her so annoying that you will practically unlearn the matchup again. She can be played many different styles, but mainly zoning/walling. Prevent it. Deny it. Stuff her. And make her jump if you can.


Also,

A few hottips if you weren't aware.

If she does a low float-canceled aerial you're trapped in the shield basically. If she does a high one you have a few options:

You can roll away and through her, but this could easily be conditioned and then punished.
You can powershield it, and pick a quick option like jab/ftilt.
You can hard-shield, then transition into light-shield with Z during the shield-stun and use it as a buffer. Why? To get pushed away from dsmash, or jab-grab. This is hard for her to react to if roll is mixed in.
You can spot-dodge and try to beat her dsmash or grab. Feels risky.
You can grab her if her spacing is bad.

If she does a medium height one you can probably only roll away unless you powershield jab her off of you.

Fear her when she approaches with turnips, but don't give a **** about closing space on her when she doesn't have one. The turnip is too quick of an option--and it cannot be reacted to in some given situations namely in the air when you're contesting space and when you're on the ground withing dash-attack/grab/waveland range. These are all choke points that she can easily control with a turnip forcing you to option select at those junctures. You have to STOP her from ever reaching into her ***** and pulling out vegetables. Use fully spaced fair/bair/and use uair when you think she wants to nair. I noticed you intuitively knew how to get Peach to react to you once you had her pressured a bit and then punished the read well. A lot of that needs to go on. Once she's hit she's really in a weird spot that she can't deal with. Airdodge sucks against most of the cast, and nair can be outspaced. Just be better than the player.

Also one more thing: You can usually beat her approaches if you just are higher than her and come down with a fair but it's gotta be spaced really well and faded back usually. Her Fair is slower so you can sometimes sneak it in faster too.
 
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Divinokage

Smash Legend
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Well if you want to talk about the highest level possible then it's all about how to get more consistent punish game as soon as you are able to land the first hit. At least right now I felt like I was falling behind in the neutral game while i play Armada. Hes able to shut down your mixups so well that it seems like you cant mix him up anymore. Maybe Ganon is too slow to keep up in the long run but at the same time I cant quite believe my skill level is nearly as clean as the current highest level. To be fair B Bwmat I dont see myself losing to a player worse than me. They say my special power is my level headedness when I play so I can perform just as well in friendlies than in tournament which i could agree with I suppose. So with that said, theres a reason why im the true gatekeeper of the elite level, at least I felt that way for a while now. Im not one to lose to Shunsuke for example so if I beat him it just means i outplayed him, thats also why i never had really bad losses in tournament I dont think...

At this moment to be the best its just a matter of putting the time in and really be able to break out everything possible about the game, obviously also when to choose Ganon based on the player/stage you are facing. I predicted something like this happening in 2010 where players are going to start dual maining characters and now so many people are so I think its important to have a really good 2nd main at this point. That kind of strat helps a lot to discourage or encourage someone to pick a CP stage you would want for example.

So at this point you have to ask yourself, if its worth continuing to play the game? Do you have the time and willing to put the effort in to be the best?
 

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
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Amidst ~3hrs of dittos last night, at one point, spider_sense spider_sense took 5 games in a row. Such a feat can only be rewarded with a promotion to 20GT Underboss.

:denzel:

For real, GG's as always. We gotta get Emilio and meet at tommy's one of these days for Ganon madness. If Blea makes it out we can stream it. We gotta definitely do it when PseudoTurtle PseudoTurtle is in town if he gets to make it out in January.

B Bwmat I'm going to watch that in a bit

Edit: Damn bro, you played well from what I saw. The end of game 2 and all of game 3 was choppy af but that might just be my twitch app.

When you're up and he won't approach the ledge, **** it, just keep ledgehopping. He has to come to you, then invincible jab/grab them, ledgedash dair/bair, etc.

You ledgedash too much imo, he knows it's coming. Throw in more ledgehops. You can at least gain access to the outermost side of the lower plat as far back as he was (pew pew pew)

You just had some tech flubs and sub-optimal choices that cost you (ex: you uthrow'd Falco at mid/high%, he DI's behind, and you dash attack... big waste when you can regrab or ftilt). But you played really well overall.

Your reactions to your SD's were priceless lol
 
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Bwmat

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 2, 2007
Messages
665
rolf @ http://www.twitch.tv/vanstreetbattle/v/25808500?t=02h40m34s
"oh noooo"

Yeah, I think the stream was crapping out at the end of those games.

And I do regret not going ******* and camping the ledge forever at the end of game 3. If ganon just keeps on refreshing invincibility, and perhaps doing a ledge hop uair regrab if falco comes too close, I think it's almost a perfect stall.
 
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-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
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Yeah you could do that, but if you sense that they are going to try to snake the ledge from you, that's the time to INV ledgedash and reverse the situation.

It's hard with falco bc of lasers but as long as they have at least med%, another thing you can do is gimmick them (fastfallers) with side-b or dash attack for an easy KO setup. Obviously you have to be very selective, but I feel moves like side-b become much better when reserved for guaranteed KO setups (again it's gimmicky, you'd have to hit them while airborne or hope they don't CC or ASDI, but if they miss that, they are offstage). Basically I use it (sparingly) when close to the ledge and always go toward the center of the stage and never toward the ledge. And if they DI away from you instead of behind you and offstage, grab/uair.

After a while falcos start fearing INV ledgehop jab/grab in my experience, but that is often my go-to strat if they think they can get within attack range of me while I'm stalling.
 
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Yort

Smash Apprentice
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Aug 27, 2014
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Georgia
Chaddd was telling me at tipped off to do a lot of overextended fairs in the icies match up to catch wavedash back, which I found interesting because don't I understand the match up, and mainly played defensive against them.

Does anyone want to give me more of a run down on how to beat up icies?
 

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
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Good Lord that's risky. It's all good if everything goes as planned, but.... Lol. I'd be praying not to get grabbed.

Also, stomp to dsmash at 0ish% wrecks climbers.
 
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Yort

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 27, 2014
Messages
167
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Georgia
Good Lord that's risky. It's all good if everything goes as planned, but.... Lol. I'd be praying not to get grabbed.

Also, stomp to dsmash at 0ish% wrecks climbers.
I do alot of fullhop stomps on icies because I know if I catch nana out I get huge punish. I don't downsmash afterwards though that's a good idea I usually just back air nana and then run off and fair her etc.

Any other tips? Looking to polish my ganon for icies.
 

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
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Fully space everything and GO HAM when you get the hit. Never miss an L-cancel lol.

Try to make wise decisions when going for nana vs popo when you get them separated.

Fully spaced fair is better than fully spaced bair on shield.

http://youtu.be/c-naSeU3DkY

^^ watch videos of this guy, he knows the mu (@RockCrock 's brother) and basically never wobbles. You'll learn basics. Both Dennis and Andrew have nasty spacing.
 
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tauKhan

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 9, 2014
Messages
1,340
TO11 losers round 6: Gravy (CF) vs druggedfox (Sheik)

http://youtu.be/2-RKJJFDBdA?t=4m12s

4:14 pivot shield drop, **** is sick.
Wow that was hot. Reminder that I should start doing those more.

It's actually surprisingly easy to do if you're already good with quarter circle pivots, since all you have to do in addition to the pivot is timing R/L on a 4th/5th frame after you start moving your stick down.

You can also do turn into 1 frame dash into shield stop which is easier and allows you to do almost the exact same thing except you move just a little bit before dropping. It's especially easy if you use axe method, since roll becomes naturally disabled during your turn/dash.
 

tm

Smash Ace
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NWOH
Fully space everything and GO HAM when you get the hit. Never miss an L-cancel lol.

Try to make wise decisions when going for nana vs popo when you get them separated.

Fully spaced fair is better than fully spaced bair on shield.

http://youtu.be/c-naSeU3DkY

^^ watch videos of this guy, he knows the mu (@RockCrock 's brother) and basically never wobbles. You'll learn basics. Both Dennis and Andrew have nasty spacing.
WTF that upB at 2:09...
 

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
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I had some sick kills on falcos tonight, the chaingrab is so awesome. When a plat is in front of you, uthrow is so good. On a stage like BF you're pretty much always golden when you grab a fastfaller on stage with uthrow, unless it's low% dead center stage. DL isn't bad either. Just be solid on your punishes for DI behind. I usually regrab. If you pummel to the max it doesn't take long to get them to a percent where the dthrow cg is easier, especially after one correct read where you really think their going to DI behind and you uthrow and regrab. If they aren't a good masher the damage is absurd. Don't ftilt unless you're close to the edge, opt for regrab, or the obvious bair at high percent.
 

PseudoTurtle

Smash Champion
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Nov 29, 2011
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Champaign, Il. Chicago in summer.
got some new vids up. and advice vs my falco match would be awesome emilio.
http://www.twitch.tv/vsgc/v/26123397 vs smilez fox
http://www.twitch.tv/vsgc/v/26123135 vs elliot peach

if you look in the full stream you can find me vs porkchops falco. i warn you its just a massacre.
I really enjoyed watching you rock that turnip strat you had on FD vs Elliot. Also, there was a point in the smilez set where he dash attacked your shield, and you dropped it and then jabbed. Is this intentional and guaranteed? Because if so, I now have a way to punish spacies dash attack on shield without predicting it and light shielding.

Watched your set vs pork chops, he looked like he was on fire.

It seemed like his lasers were shutting you down. I know this sounds like kind of a general statement, but, for example you got hit a lot when he did that double laser from the edge and in game one, I saw a few over committal down-b attempts that were shut down by the laser.

One more thing: when he's near the ledge and lasering his way in, I like to wall him out with tilts / bairs / platform pressure to try and stuff him. If he catches you midair with a laser, SDI the laser down and away. If he tries to approach with dair / nair, you should avoid the dair completely (free jab) / make it so just the weak nair hitbox connects (free CC --> grab if you keep your DI down and away).

I know I have an example of this somewhere, I'll try and gfycat it so you can see what I mean.

edit: found one. I was slow on the jab and he probably could have shined if he was a bit faster as well, but sloppiness aside, I think this demonstrates the basic principle.
 
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-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
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Starting to like dash attack slightly more in neutral vs fox... Reading approaches with it. When they don't expect it they miss the DI and you create techchasing situations.

It often tacks on some damage safely and only requires a soft read imo.

Got to play porkchops for a few hours. Maybe winning 25% vs his Fox and only 2 wins on his Falco out of probably 12 matches. Got 4 stocked twice, once I had his stock finally I went to suicide dair him and missed rofl. He also went to suicide kill me once, the dair was spaced well but somehow phantom'd lmao. Too bad he had another stock.

Stage control is so damn important. Buffer roll away is great after shielding a laser approach in neutral, so you want to reserve that option by not getting trapped even one roll's length away from the ledge (be another roll's distance away from the ledge after the roll away)

PS jab is good.

Yolo usmash for techroll into you. Great gimmick for easy kill after you create a techchase situation with fair.

DL64 is a stage of chaingrabbing, and exposing one's flaws in his neutral game. Ganon doesn't live forever on that stage if your opponent has a spike.

Uthrow traps and chaingrabs.

Only stomp hits pixel-perfect sweet spots.

Had a sick kill from a simple punish with stomp after a read, then untechable stomp on plat, to fair.

He gave me props for SDI'ing Fox's shine so well, but he was able to react to my SDI quite well after I escaped a few times. I hold c-stick and repeatedly slam the stick.

100 edits
 
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