Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[-ACE-]

All I see are Ganons making mistakes.

I'll elaborate. I can basically write a paragraph worth of mistakes for almost any Ganon video out there.

The Ganon metagame is STILL behind.

We need to be ground game Guru's. Pivots, crispy wd's oos, intelligent DD'ing, tipper hitboxes, FP SHFFL'd aerials (out of pivot), and CC/ASDI monsters (graaaaaabs).

It kills me to see kage's accidental bthrows/fthrows on sheik.... This is just asking for a loss.

Punish with a KO setup in mind whenever possible. Don't punch him to reset neutral, don't give yourself a pat on the back for getting a read, JUST GO HAM.

In neutral, literally EVERY MOVE YOUR OPPONENT MAKES, you should be reacting to. Reads aren't just for punishes and edgeguards, you have to read his zoning and zone yourself accordingly, and CONSTANTLY, otherwise you'll find yourself cornered due to Ganons speed and size. You must always try to stay a half step ahead in neutral, and promote situations where if an exchange were to take place, your opponent will be met by the most disjointed hitbox you have available at the moment (When you're up against top level spacing - other levels you can think about punishment and maybe choose a move that will lead to more follow-ups, but at top level winning the exchange means a lot more).

PUNISH SHEIK WITH GRAB. Pretend the matchup is Marth vs Fox on FD if you have to. I swear, a noob that can cg and perfect wL grab could beat sheiks that beat some of us. You guys already know grab is best so this may sound like "blah blah blah" but we aren't doing it enough. Grab when she runs up to you, run up to her and grab, aerial her shield then dash jc grab, etc. CC/ASDI grab like a MF. Start throwing in grabs in situations where you often don't. It's our only chance.

Edit: Kage also ledgehopped a little too much when edgeguarding sheik. Be selective with ledgehop and only use it when you have to. Regular stand-up is better. Just learn the timing so that you can edgehog AND punish landing lag, or else you risk giving sheik the ledge for free.

 

[Bwmat]

Yeah, normal (<100%) getup destroys shiek if you time it right. If she goes to the edge she dies, if she goes high it's jab/ftilt/bair to reset the situation or kill, if she lands on stage it's a grab(just remember to wait lol)/dair/bair, and if she lands in a platform its an aerial.

Honestly sheik should die almost every time she's forced to use up-b to recover.

 

[-ACE-]

You can use it over 100% too. Time the previous ledge regrab so that you'll input the standup a little earlier than you would under 100%. I do right after I regrab for the INV frames.

IIRC Plup missed this once in his set vs shroomed (the over 100% standup) by inputting the standup as if he was under 100% (too late), then a second time where he remembered and input it early but just barely missed the punish. Same strat applies with Ganon.

 

[Bwmat]

I guess, I have less success with it, usually get burned lol. Guess I don't have as much practice.

 

[-ACE-]

It might not be guaranteed but I definitely go for it. Sometimes when it fails I'm not sure if i mistimed it, or they legit covered the option.

PS chaingrabbing is still under practiced. I hardly ever see top tier punishes (cg till 80%, fsmash/fair.... cg to plat techchase w/grab, aerial). After a grab, sheik should be put (at a minimum) in a situation where there is a 50% chance of forcing her to up-b. But usually the grab is enough to create an edgeguard opportunity (any grab on FD/DL64 for example). Other times may require a soft read, but if you get that, she's offstage.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I got 2nd in doubles yesterday, using about 50/50 Fox/Ganon. Went on a pretty solid losers run on stream including an upset on the team that came from Durham and had won the last tournament (where my team also got 2nd) http://www.twitch.tv/vorde/v/24518828?t=1h02m10s

Games with my Ganon:
1:12:35 (2 straight games)
1:30:00 (2 straight games)
1:38:58 (2 straight games)
1:55:25 (1 game)

There was quite a bit of slop on my part, missing movement and edgeguards especially. Probably comes from not having practiced Ganon for a few weeks. The last game (game 5 of GFs >_<) was especially sloppy, nerves got to me. I'd like some advice on things I was doing right and wrong though, definitely want to improve my doubles play in the future.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Hugs said something interesting in regards to character viability. It's pretty obvious that ganon is not a good character, when you compare him to the top tiers; the same can be said for Samus.

When asked about Samus's viability, Hugs said that it wasn't really a question of character viability because every time he got hit, grabbed, whatever, there was a reason for it and his character had the capability to avoid the hit. The same can be said for ganon - whenever I watch bizz or kage or whoever and they get hit, it wasn't like the hit was ever unavoidable... unless they were getting edge guarded lol, then that **** was pretty much GG.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

-ACE- If a Ganon were to truly master all pivot options, do you think they could play more proactively with success?

Also, I really think that we need to start doing things differently to edgeguard. Trying to time your aerials, tilts, or jab from the stage to cover like one or two options is just not cutting it anymore. Ganon has to get the edgeguards every opportunity he can.

What do yall think about trying out a ledge oriented approach to edgeguarding? I've been watching a lot of Hax Falcon videos, and I see a lot of edgeguards from the ledge that could also be performed with Ganon. If you have the tech, these edgeguards look like they cover almost all the options.

 

[-ACE-]

To truly master all pivot options? Yeah, you could play more proactively on the ground, to an extent. You wouldn't have to respect your opponent's dash approach with space as much, you could just toss in a high ftilt or jab (during a moment where it's difficult to perform one) when you read it. Being able to do a move facing either direction at any given time is pretty crazy. You could dash almost immediately into a bair approach without moonwalking. You could run away into forward-facing retreating uair scoop. You would make them respect your DD more. You could also ftilt/jab facing forward out of a dash. But it wouldn't change him too drastically imo.

Edgeguarding just requires lots of practice imo. A lot of things can be done from the ledge, you just have to be comfortable executing the tech.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

-ACE- If a Ganon were to truly master all pivot options, do you think they could play more proactively with success?

Also, I really think that we need to start doing things differently to edgeguard. Trying to time your aerials, tilts, or jab from the stage to cover like one or two options is just not cutting it anymore. Ganon has to get the edgeguards every opportunity he can.

What do yall think about trying out a ledge oriented approach to edgeguarding? I've been watching a lot of Hax Falcon videos, and I see a lot of edgeguards from the ledge that could also be performed with Ganon. If you have the tech, these edgeguards look like they cover almost all the options.

I've been saying / thinking it for years since I started experimenting with the RLD. But I never really attempted it until VERY recently. Because I'm dumb like that and my edge guarding is a joke. But the ledge hop up air regrab could be huge vs falco (and fox if he's close).

up air regrab to cover side-b. If he tries to go higher, you up air him, if he tries to sweetspot, you regrab ledge. If they firefox instead of side-b, you react and RLD double jump up air / bair. Unless they recover super high, this should theoretically cover a ton of options. Not sure how it would work in practice though, but it's a thought I've been itching to try out.

Regarding pivots, I think it could be huge. What frame does ftilt come out on? Because I think a perfect pivot SH bair would be 14 frames min and you're off the ground, whereas with an ftilt spaced far enough away, it could be a really good option for pressuring your opponent near the ledge.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

up air regrab to cover side-b. If he tries to go higher, you up air him, if he tries to sweetspot, you regrab ledge. If they firefox instead of side-b, you react and RLD double jump up air / bair. Unless they recover super high, this should theoretically cover a ton of options. Not sure how it would work in practice though, but it's a thought I've been itching to try out.

This is the exact same thing I was thinking of doing to cover recovery options. But my thought process was if they firefox too close to the ledge, you rld uair or ledgedrop uair to take them out. Or if they firefox from a point where they can only pass by the ledge (so low but not close enough for you to hit them with these things) then you just reset invincibility and lh uair.

Regarding pivots, I think it could be huge. What frame does ftilt come out on? Because I think a perfect pivot SH bair would be 14 frames min and you're off the ground, whereas with an ftilt spaced far enough away, it could be a really good option for pressuring your opponent near the ledge.

So ftilt comes out on frame 9-11 and you are in cool down animation until frame 29. So you're comitting to 29 frames, but you're on the ground so it's so much better. You say it's good at pressuring near the ledge. What about straight up just running at someone and throwing it out? Like dash forward, dash backward for 1 frame but pivot back to the direction you initially dashed into to pivot ftilt. And honestly the same with jab and dtilt as well. How useful would that actually be? Much safer and less comital than trying to control space with a fair/bair.

 

[Superspright]

-ACE- If a Ganon were to truly master all pivot options, do you think they could play more proactively with success?

Also, I really think that we need to start doing things differently to edgeguard. Trying to time your aerials, tilts, or jab from the stage to cover like one or two options is just not cutting it anymore. Ganon has to get the edgeguards every opportunity he can.

What do yall think about trying out a ledge oriented approach to edgeguarding? I've been watching a lot of Hax Falcon videos, and I see a lot of edgeguards from the ledge that could also be performed with Ganon. If you have the tech, these edgeguards look like they cover almost all the options.

I use the ledge a lot for invincible options, and also to force my opponent to go for stage then chase and throw them off again. Our character has the ability to edgeguard basically anyone...we should be exploiting that fact.

 

[VegiLohrd]

So what do you guys think is the set that shows the absolute pinnacle of ganon play up to this point?

 

[-ACE-]

So what do you guys think is the set that shows the absolute pinnacle of ganon play up to this point?

http://youtu.be/AxTCkhrx8SA

That ones good. Trying to think of Kage's best set...

Honestly the mango one is still up there lol

 

[tm]

Yeah whatever they are they're probably super old lol. Someday I'll actually have a good sheik one for you guys lol

 

[Bwmat]

more mike li matches
http://www.twitch.tv/vanstreetbattle/v/24560340?t=02h26m11s winners (went fox first game)
http://www.twitch.tv/vanstreetbattle/v/24560340?t=03h31m36s losers (almost got him that time)

same matches on yt:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNSxfqgFOfw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYn_LvOv5Cw ( https://youtu.be/uYn_LvOv5Cw?t=357 Dat stock )

 

[Bwmat]

http://youtu.be/AxTCkhrx8SA

That ones good. Trying to think of Kage's best set...

Honestly the mango one is still up there lol

That's a good pick. I wish linguini had won though...

On the topic of ganon vs falco (since i just watched a bunch of that) I'm realizing that it's not _that_ bad. You just have to not miss punishes (esp. edgeguards), and have a very good defensive game (I spend like half the match just rolling around, blocking, avoiding **** to get those few crucial openings). Also not sd lmao. You need to live long enough to get those openings.

Also, watching my matches, I don't YOLO offstage fair/bair falco enough when he's up-b's close to the stage, I really need to start doing that instead of just letting him back on.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

If you want to learn how to beat mid level spacies today, go watch Kage/Linguini vs the best spacies circa 2010-2012 lol.

 

[Yort]

Can anyone explain to me the input to jump back off the ledge, do an upair, and regrab the ledge?
(note this is not ledgehop uair, and this is without double jumping to get back up to the ledge)

No ganons do it from what I've seen and I want to experiment. Renth told me about it 6 months ago in Florida and told me it was unviable due to inconsistency. I saw gravy repeatedly edgeguarding with it as falcon at tipped off, which made me wonder if the input and tightness of it is the same for ganon, if it is then it is possible, considering gravy's consistency.

@Renth

 

[-ACE-]

Can anyone explain to me the input to jump back off the ledge, do an upair, and regrab the ledge?
(note this is not ledgehop uair, and this is without double jumping to get back up to the ledge)

No ganons do it from what I've seen and I want to experiment. Renth told me about it 6 months ago in Florida and told me it was unviable due to inconsistency. I saw gravy repeatedly edgeguarding with it as falcon at tipped off, which made me wonder if the input and tightness of it is the same for ganon, if it is then it is possible, considering gravy's consistency.

@Renth

http://youtu.be/pO4aUGgYFEo

Gotta find your own way of doing it. I slam away and immediately roll to up and slam c-up all in one motion.

 

[Bwmat]

It's way easier with falcon unfortunately.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

It's definitely viable as Ganon. I'm still practicing it and have it very close to being consistent. Learning shield drops was harder than this.

 

[-ACE-]

Yort you should stop in more often, everyone's input on discussion is valued. The more posts the better

 

[Oldiz]

While we're talking about uairs on the ledge, apparently it's possible to uair back on stage. I cant seem to pull it off, but my friend did it pretty consistently. Isn't this one of the best options to get back on stage?

 

[-ACE-]

Dj and uair immediately after dropping and hold forward. You're basically just adding uair to a ledgehop.

Get used to doing it immediately after you grab ledge so all hitboxes are INV.

 

[Bwmat]

Uair onto stage is really good, but only situational to attack someone on stage, you'll just get shield grabbed if your spam it for that.

 

[DCW]

Yort : I was testing this recently in Debug mode, and the strictness of the timing for upair ledge regrab is 2 frames. It's actually very doable, and I use it in-game to edgeguard Falco's up-b when he is medium-distance from the ledge. (If Falco goes directly toward the stage, the uair semi-spikes him. If he angles the firebird upward to avoid the uair, Ganon regrabs the ledge and edgehogs.) In game, I usually input press away on the control stick to drop from the ledge, then immediately press up and A. You can also tap away then hit up on the C-stick, but I find in the heat of a game that I usually go with the first option. I'm not great at the technique, but it's definitely viable, and very useful.

Also, I'm sorry I didn't get to play you at Tipped Off. I'd really like to play some friendlies against your Falco at the next monthly.

 

[DCW]

I had a good time at Tipped Off. I had the pleasure of meeting Rock Lobster and a Peach player from south Florida named Elliot who said he plays with Tipman, Linguini, and Spider_Sense regularly. He definitely knew the matchup well.

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

It's Locke Robster btw and yea Elliott plays all them boys

 

[-ACE-]

I had a good time at Tipped Off. I had the pleasure of meeting Rock Lobster and a Peach player from south Florida named Elliot who said he plays with Tipman, Linguini, and Spider_Sense regularly. He definitely knew the matchup well.

Lol Elliott's mah boy. And yeah he's good at the mu.

 

[DCW]

My bad, @Locke Robster. I remembered the tag that way originally, but decided I was being dyslexic.

 

[Yort]

Yeah

Yort : I was testing this recently in Debug mode, and the strictness of the timing for upair ledge regrab is 2 frames. It's actually very doable, and I use it in-game to edgeguard Falco's up-b when he is medium-distance from the ledge. (If Falco goes directly toward the stage, the uair semi-spikes him. If he angles the firebird upward to avoid the uair, Ganon regrabs the ledge and edgehogs.) In game, I usually input press away on the control stick to drop from the ledge, then immediately press up and A. You can also tap away then hit up on the C-stick, but I find in the heat of a game that I usually go with the first option. I'm not great at the technique, but it's definitely viable, and very useful.

Also, I'm sorry I didn't get to play you at Tipped Off. I'd really like to play some friendlies against your Falco at the next monthly.

Thanks for this information I didn't know you were such a frame connoisseur. I'm going to become consistent in it and attempt to develop a strategy to cover side b and react to up b from the ledge as ganon.

We should talk about ganon more, feed me frame data on questions I have and I will consume it and apply it :D.

Also, you live in Athens right? If you live near Atlanta, I will hit you up to play time to time and we'll grind out Ganon dittos.

Yort you should stop in more often, everyone's input on discussion is valued. The more posts the better

I took a break from lurking this thread because I took a break from exploring ganondorf. I've still been practicing him pretty consistently but I've spent more time learning, falcon, falco, etc. Now I'm probably back to work on my ganondorf again so I'll stop in more often to discuss.

 

[-ACE-]

Guys get on pivot shield drops. Just slam backwards during dash and roll to down. Dash via platform and shield drop into approaching bair. Or run away and retreating shield drop uair. So good.

 

[Bwmat]

I wish I could shield drop, I can't seem to get it consistent at all, it's so gooooood.

 

[-ACE-]

Grind it my dude

 

[Bwmat]

I've tried, it might just be an excuse but I suspect my controller may play a part.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Guys get on pivot shield drops. Just slam backwards during dash and roll to down. Dash via platform and shield drop into approaching bair. Or run away and retreating shield drop uair. So good.

What is the advantage to pivot shield drop?

And does the run away retreating shield drop uair actually work? I always do it running towards people because to me it feels like the reverse hitbox is just going to get stuffed or something.

Also what do you guys all think about shield drop fair, nair, and waveland? Those are the three most underused options out of shield drop. Fair seems good for obvious reasons. Nair could be used as shield pressure or to tech chase. And waveland is good for movement and opens up grounded options out of shield drop. Imagine shield drop waveland grab as a mixup to your usual arsenal of shield drop aerials. Pretty grimy stuff.

 

[-ACE-]

Being able to change direction immediately prior to dropping immediately seems like an advantage. Lol

There are lots of applications that are unexplored but baiting someone with the direction you're facing is a thing. If they are under you and approaching, catching up to you as you're on a plat facing/dashing away from them, when they expect you to maybe run off the plat and bair, you pivot shield drop uair them instead and follow up. Just one example.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

I'm playing devil's advocate here a bit. I like that example. But do you have others? Because I feel like you don't really need to change directions last second to accomplish what you want most of the time. Fair comes out 4 frames later than bair, both have the same land lag, and neither will auto cancel out of shield drop. If you're fast enough, you could be doing that every time you would've otherwise done pivot bair.

 

[-ACE-]

Well, every aerial has their place as far as usefulness. Bair has the best and longest disjoint, uair is fastest (and has special edgeguarding properties), and fair covers the most space. Being able to use any of them at any given point is better than being limited by the direction you're facing.

backwards fulljump NIL pivot shield drop fair.

When DD'ing on a plat, pivoting gives shield drop + bair more range.

Be facing offstage in the plat, no time to edgeguard but you pivot shield drop tipman spike.

Retreat facing away, instant drop + fair opponent in face.